The Future of Boost Control: Electronic Wastegates 

Makes old style almost obsolete now🤷🏻‍♂️🤘🏻

heard some of them get stuck

@@24kNickhave heard nothing but good about them.🤷🏻‍♂️ Time will tell

@@sacrificialrubber779 me too but I believe Jamie’s civic from PFI speed had a issue with the e gate getting stuck , maybe even twice I’m not sure . We were gonna do the straight gate on our car but didn’t want to deal with it .

Only the Idiots would use anything else than old springs with no membrane or even Any shitty electricity when it comes 2 the Endurability.

To my knowledge no one has used this on a commercially available performance wastegate application before.

@@motoiq I understand and I agree. The fallacy is that it's patented and saying I don't want to go into too much detail. You can read the patent with the detail of the design. My main point is just tell us how it works and flaunt how good it is because if someone wants to understand it they can read the documentation.

yes dahm seem to like them alot and its might be alot more easy to use then the need to rout preasure hoses. cleetus using co2 just to control his wastegate and get alot of boos creep sometimes, it would be nice to see if his engine would run more stabile presure with e-gates.

This is funny, as soon as I was getting into this video, I started wondering, damn what is damn using, now I know thx

or if you do a turbo busa you can have basically no boost in first then boost it by gear to like 20psi in higher gears. stops it from wheeling not doesnt stop it from hauling ass!

Dude with modern boost control and tuning I got my 01 7.3 deisel to 22 mpg hwy. Modern engine tech is wild

@@Lrlbiglee 😲🧐🏁

Rob dahm has been using this for the past 2 years & on with no issues. Is that reliable enough for you 🤔

To be fair, that type of shift delay control has been around for a very long time. Running a simple N75 we've been tweaking that for 20 years at this point. A lot of guys weren't using the simple technology available to them.

Come to SEMA ;-)

A servo motor can have brushes. This is a servo motor, if it has PWM control it is a servo motor.

Ok well it needs a servo motor that isn't from a cracker box. If you know anything about motors you can look at that one they are using and know its cheap af.@@motoiq

What do you know from looking at it? You didn't know a servo motor can have brushes. A cheap motor doesnt live long in this application and the wastegate has a good service and warranty record.

Maybe thats the OEM VW part, turbosmart has pretty rigorous validation.

@@motoiq VW OEM for the IS12, 20 and 38 is IHI Japan, but yes that could be the case

The Curie Temperature is the temp at which magnetic properties of a material change. It depends on the material, but I'd imagine most of the motors are using similar grades of material.

@@jimboyokel yeah those magnets its around 210-230f if Im not mistaken, but you cant really take the temperature accurately since we measure on the can itself , 185F gives us a good margin.

As a fellow Mk7 Golf R i too have had fault codes for the electronic wastegate actuator. But isnt the actual wastegate on the is38 still internally gated? These seem to be closer to an external type wastegate.

Thank you! How could we forget?! 😅 44 Micron serviceable filter to be specific!

🤫🤫

Typically the same safety protocols used in a traditional turbocharged or supercharged application would still apply. The Turbosmart BlackBox also features over temp protection and over current protection to specifically prevent the Electronic Wastegate from failing.

There is no safety in a regular wastegate either. It is up to the tuner to program in safety if the engine sees to much boost. My 25 year old car used fuel cut in case off over boosting if there was a malfunction in the wastegate system.

We have never seen a composite spacer crack within the nearly 6 years our Wastegates have been using them.

This is max 130 watts when it is adjusting, 0 Watts between engine idle and all the way up to the boost target.

You've got a lot of electric accessories, but almost nothing is running at the same time. Your electric power steering is going to be consuming almost zero power, if you're at wide open throttle, your electric AC compressor is off. Your intercooler pump is maybe 10 amps continuous. Go measure your actual running current, you're going to be well short of 30 amps continuous without headlights on. that's totally manageable even on a factory alternator runny any RPM.

@@otm646 thanks for the feedback! You're absolutely right, I should look at total current draw and power usage at a realistic duty cycle and see just where I'm at!

@@mrbookends Your ecu can inform power usage from alternator and what is effectively charging the battery. So a simple math solve this question

Glad it was helpful!

It's one of the points we brought up, many times the system will have to be built around the wastegate. The advantages may be worth it!

Could use a valve controlled vacum wategate. It’s a bit german, my porsche 992 turbo with ruf kit, responds well, reliable enough to run 880hp with 3 years warranty and a lot of tracks days and autobahning. And my wastegate remains open in launch to alleviate exhaust pressure, but my turbo is VTG. I don’t know 10 years ahead, but I put about 15000 mi and I’m confident

They are controled on close loop that is not problem if you have proper ecu to run eletronic wastegates.

@@fabini14 And good tunning too. For me, closed loop controls is magnificent and beautiful

Unfortunately, as you stated, your ECU doesn't have the support. The R5 would be my choice

The size does look like a restriction. Definitely wouldn't have fit in my past projects.

great gate and turbo for that engine.

Watch the video - there are no solenoids involved.

@@martystaggs6948 I call it a solenoid but I know it isn't

Yes it is. I would regulate to about 40 psi.

Because it's a shitty low capacity internal wastegate. This is a big high capacity motorsports wastegate, the first of it's kind on a consumer level.

Coils can't take the heat.

A electronic actuator for a stock flapper type wastegate yes, not a high volume motorsports one.

Most of the newer ones. We talk about that in the video.

This has been rigorously validated under conditions that would cook a mechanical wastegate. Mechanical wastegates can be failure-prone if the turbo system isn't designed properly, especially under racing conditions. The typical short-term failure mode is diaphragm melting, spring cooking, and losing tension or both. The longer term is valve stem scaling and sticking.

@@motoiq i stil think the steppers will fail under normal conditions sooner. just like every IAC i've seen over about 10 years old. there is also current based wear on electronic components as electricity is the constant transfer of electronics across conductive surfaces, this leads to breakdown over time from ionization as well as atomic frictional wear and tear from the electrons jumping. and a preocess called electromigration.

Which also happens to a standard mechanical wastegate. Electromigration is more of a thin film semiconductor thing and would be an issue if the part was not designed and validated for this sort of use like this is. We talked about it briefly but if you read the literature that comes with the wastage the validation testing is more more riguous that typical mechanical wastegates.

good idea

Not at this time

no

That is interesting.

Typically the same safety protocols used in a traditional turbocharged or supercharged application would still apply. The Turbosmart BlackBox also features over temp protection and over current protection to specifically prevent the Electronic Wastegate from failing.

What good external wastegate is $120? The ebay fake TiAl's for cheap are not good wastegates.

@@motoiq The real tial and the ebay 1s are 40 or atleast thats what the prices where a while back. I keep forgetting everything has gone through the roof price wise like my 4 new tires i just got today were 80 bucks each last time this time they were 165. Things are getting ridiculous which is why a 1,200 dollar wastegate is even more ridiculous. I like em just not the price.

Real TiAl's are not anywhere close to $40, more like 10x that, here is a good street price on a real one. This is also the smalish 44mm. www.full-race.com/tial-mvr-44mm-external-wastegate?gclid=CjwKCAjw-eKpBhAbEiwAqFL0mqK6FB3UBiyHMlOIVkJfrvhkdKvzv56pNWA8jsur2kgO_mNM-4w1kRoC_9kQAvD_BwE

If he said proportional Integrator derivative controler everyone would go huh? Then we would loose most people. That's not effective communication.

It's been around, just not on a consumer Motorsports level.

The valve postion equates to flow volume, like any poppet style valve, it's pretty common sense.

@@motoiq What I was referring to is the PID, target manifold pressure in conjunction with the rest of the IO handle that. The Processor/PID determines output based on reference manifold pressure. In this sense the valve position is irrelevant. Most analog valves wether they be pneumatic, hydraulic don’t have an LVDT or encoder to determine valve position and work just fine. Your answer explains nothing…. My question was, is there a reason this control approach won’t work in this application. It’s literally used all over industry and works just fine… As in maybe there is a legitimate reason for not using it, I don’t know. I’m assuming you don’t have a clue either as you just spouted off valve position determines flow. Well duh!!! And that flow isn’t proportional to valve position either so you’d need a curve to calculate that. Which when one is using a reference manifold pressure - input 1, and has logic that dictates a target manifold pressure -input 2 and you’ve got an output waste gate 1, the differential between input 1 and input 2 dictates what output 1 does… I don’t need to know valve position… if manifold pressure is low, close the waste gate! If it’s high open it. Obviously an over simplification as these are analog devices and not Boolean but the point remains. How is the actual valve position relevant. As far as I’m aware the logic or computer isn’t determining waste gate output based on flow rate. To utilize that properly you need to know exactly what the exhaust flow rate is which obviously changes drastically very quickly. Doesn’t seem like an ideal controls strategy thus making waste gate valve position irrelevant. The PID is controlling to a set psi, not a set flow. You also mentioned compressor shaft speed. That could relatively easily be handled as well by some additional inputs in the PID controller. None of which again for the umpteenth time care about flow, when pressure is what’s of concern… Obviously flow is important but as far as the PID control loop is concerned, not so much.

Ah ok now I understand what you were saying and I agree that the valve position doesnt matter when the controller is looking at MAP or shaft speed. I thought you meant that the valve postion doesnt matter from a flow standpoint.

@@motoiq a nice PID control would utilize shaft speed and valve position solely for error control IMHO. For example shaft speed gets to high, open the waste gate, valve position isn’t properly responding open waste gate, drop fuel. Save the engine, save the turbo. Other than that, that’s all I can see it’s relevant for. you could even use the shaft speed for boost leak detection, if shaft speed were high, vale was closed and MAP was low, one could infer there is a boost leak. In which case you still want to open the waste gate and or cut fuel.

I believe they have very little warranty, like next to none, maybe someone from Turbosmart can answer this.

Gates dont blow engine up - people do ;-)@@motoiq

You need a 3 port.

@@motoiq I’m curious about the electric boost control unit. How do you tune the opening and closing of the unit. I have a 3 port already, but this would eliminate vacuum lines and make it extremely accurate for tuning boost curve and the ecm correcting boost as well. Would you just use the 3 port wires and tune in the wastegate duty cycle table to change the electric waste gate

I think you need a lot more basic knowledge before you attempt this

@@motoiq I think you can’t read the question I’m asking. I know the Subaru ecm inside and out. How it works I was just trying to creat an educational topic for people to understand that you can hook up the boost control wires to the electric waste gate and alter the duty cycle with ecu flash and Tactrix cable to put the waste gate where you want it and have no vacuum lines that control the wastegate. Or bleeding on any air so you will naturally have better boost control and no bleeding off of air to control the wastegate. But your moto iq you should know that…..

If you know then why are you asking?

can bleed off boost like a regular wastegate on a procharger you will need to run the pulley for the largest boost you want and bleed off the rest it will be less efficient tho

@@seethruhead7119 thats what I'm saying, ei, car makes 22lbs of boost & want to make 14....without swapping pullies...was asking if this could do it

Don't see why it couldn't. But you could also do that with a regular waste gate too. Just have know how to program your tuning software to respond to what boost pressures you're looking for.

Yes the StraightGate can be used for supercharged pressure control.

More linear flow compared to traditional poppet style wastegates. You are welcome to review our technical data sheets where we openly share our flow data. We have them available for both poppet and butterfly style wastegates.

For the StraightGate, it is as near linear as possible. The flow chart is available in the data sheet on the website.

thanks for the trouble to reply. cheers.@@TurbosmartHQ

Thanks for the trouble to reply.Cheers

On the other hand, it's not any bigger than wastegates just a few years ago!

@@motoiq on the other hand electronics always fails under extreme temperatures and or vibration

Not if they are properly designed for the conditions. Regular wastegates can easily fail due to high temperatures as well.

You still need boost control in a sequential turbo. Wastegates also do more than just manage boost, they also manage backpressure.

@@motoiq please checkout their wastegateless system and tell me what you think 🙏. Two turbos zero wastegates.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ij-Z1a2mWFo.htmlfeature=shared

They run a big turbo that would lag too much to be useful alone on that engine. Under low RPM it spools both the small turbo and the large turbo but after the big turbo is spooled it has valves that shut off flow to the small turbo and redirects all exhaust gas to the large turbo for the top end. They claim that with the appropriate large turbo selection that no wastegate is needed as that big of a turbo can't overboost the engine and they have the running concept on their 3000gt.

A properly designed system with a wategate will work better and have a wider powerband with less complication and less weight.

Lots can go wrong with conventional wastegates as well, vacuum line falls off or gets left off, vacuum line deteriorates or melts, diaphragm melts or develops leaks, spring looses tension, valve sticks. I have seen all of this in my time working on turbo race cars.

@@motoiq yes...and radiator hoses fall off too ! Try watching RU-vid ! Theirs video after VIDEO of wiring issues on today's electrics !!! Tell me the TRUTH ! Do you use factory idiot lights or do you use say Auto-meter mechanical gauges on race cars ??? Engines have heat cycles.. Moisture, forms then evaporates... Problems arise. Springs collapse ??? What about jour valve springs ?? Which is used more, Waste gate springs or valve springs ?? Your chassis has springs too !! You just want to SELL THEM ! Or are sponsored.

Do you even race anything? The street doesnt count. Do you understand anything technical at all? From your reply, I think not. Wastegates get many times hotter than valve springs, they can get over 1000 degrees when bypassing hot exhaust gas pre-turbine, the gas is really hot, like 1400 degrees or more. Hot enough to melt silicone and nomex diaphragms and for the springs to lose tension. Hot enough to require exotic materials in the construction like inconel and MAR-M with PVD coatings. That's why they have to be placed where they will get good airflow and even watercooled. When you are doing something like road racing or drifting, that hot gas will be going through that wastegate for 30 or more seconds straight. Not cycling where heat transfer to a water jacket can occur like a valve. If you are on the salt flats, it could be a few minutes of hot gas exposure. That gas is corrosive as well, depending on the fuel type it can be really corrosive, heat (which speeds chemical reactions like oxidation) and corrosive gas causes scaling and pitting which causes leaking and sticking. I mean generally for stuff that counts, we use Motec ECUs, dashes, data loggers, and PDM's not autometer gages. I mean if you don't have a clue don't be so quick to tell someone they are not telling the truth.

@@motoiq Dude I'm retired. I drag raced for years best daily driver 11:80 115 mph. Got bored with that. As drag racing is.. Then went to stock cars, first asphalt then on to dirt late models. (77 Ed Howe Camaro, 468 BBC) Dude...we don't race them in seconds...like boring drag cars... Ya need to run 100 laps with a car banging your rear bumper.. Side by side..turn after turn. First turbo truck I drove was in 1971...ive been around a "few" Mostly I've driven trucks. My record was 750k on it's original turbo. Funny how they change colors after pulling 80k up a mountain for an hour and a half. We run like 30psi. Of course now they're using variable pitch now. Next time you get a chance, stop at a fuel island at the truck stop . Theyll open their hoods to check oil..LOOK at the turbos. See if they have diaphrams. (?) Actually diaphrams last a while... As for years, we had DIAPHRAMS In our Fuel PUMPS !! (Whodafiggured ?) Son...I remember when Holley came out with the DUAL INLET !! Finally got away from Carter AFBS ! (You know what those are ??) Or....ya think edlebrock invented them ?? My first cam was a 30-30 ya know what that is ?? OR how about a MALLORY REV-POL ??? Packard 440's witj Raja clip ! Frankly.... SO WHAT ... If I never raced... Doesnt mean I can't keep a vacuum line connected ! You know (probably not) What jour set up has be be to finish your qualifying rounds heat races AND the feature, WITH OUT SOMETHING FALLING OFF ??? Big deal 10 second car. What 2-3 qualifiers ? 4-5 passes ?? Ya get 100 seconds ... Oh WOW.. we RACED ALOT.. 150 SECONDS !!! You know how to tell someone loosing a discussion ??? ....they ATTACK your charactor ! NOW HIDE !! ....block me....

You have no idea how old I am what I know, or what my qualifications are, I am a lot older than you think. I have no need to brag or flex about it, just state relevant facts. Diesel engines have much lower exhaust energy and lower EGTs than gas engines by several hundred degrees. Also for OEM diesels found in long haul trucks the wastegate construction is designed for its intended use. For truck diesels, the wastegate is almost always an internal design to the exhaust housing of the turbo, and the actuator is remotely mounted away from heat. If it is an external wastegate it is located where it has sufficient cooling for reliability and is sometimes water-cooled. Diesel wastegates are also much lower volume systems. A gas racing engine can wastegate up to 80% of the total exhaust volume. Talking about diesels is also irrelevant to your initial point which is probably stating that this wastegate is junk with no understanding or experience with it, due to your writing, that is also not clear. Also what racing class do you run a turbocharged car for 2-3 qualifiers for 150 seconds at WOT? Not even LSR racing, not even pikes peak. I call BS. If you actually did such demanding racing you would be struggling with wastegate durability issues at times as well. What is lame is someone who just attacked your character big time by calling you a liar baselessly, accusing you of attacking there's. Then saying you are losing when there is no argument and no winning or losing just stating facts. What a big deflection.

True. Racers are a lot harder on their parts and these are basically for competition.

Available for aftermarket

^ This

The future for motorsports. As mentioned in the video, electronic actuators are nothing new on OE applications. These are designed for hardcore motorsports applications. That being said, they would work just fine for the highly modified street car as well.

If that is the issue, then this isnt your kind of product.

@@motoiq clearly! I’m good with the old fashioned 2 port for now. I’m just getting to drive my wire lol

800-1000 for a accurate waste gate that can potentially save an engine that cost thousands of dollars seems to be cheap insurance. But what do I know!

watch the video

They operate from a 0-12vdc signal and cannot accept a PWM directly. Ideally, the ecu manufacturer would update their software to support new technology. ;-)

@@martystaggs6948 when the waste gate costs as much as the entire ECU and harness I expect them to play ball

ya I was going say...I mean if you use like a eboost to control it I guess its a good idea, aka standalone boost control.

since you are running a stand alone to run the wastegate, you can have safety parameters programed into it.

If someone unplugs your wastegate and you do not have any way to have the ECM notify you then it would be up to the overboost protection protocol in your ECU to help avoid catastrophic failure. Overboost protections should be in place regardless if using an electronic or pneumatic wastegate. If you burn wires then that sounds more like negligent use. Aside from an actual fire in the engine bay, we have not come across anyone burning wires since usually people take precautionary measures to protect them.

Sort of the same thing as if someone disconnects or if the hose to your actuator burns up!

But not a big high capacity motorsports level external wastegate, this is the first in that market.