Shermer is a good skeptic, but I'll doubt how much he has overviews over all geological data of history, paleontology and archeology related... go to the Randall Carlson podcast... I mean the Göbekli tepe ok.. But there WAS a lower sea level before during the ice age. There WAS a sudden major change due to natural disasters ending the ice age AND killing off loads of big animals. The sea levels around Azores WAS lower , quite much. Atlantis myth is from Platon about the islands west of Gibraltar. Well, avoid strawmen. We are not talking advanced. Like it means today. But culture. The problem with some of the crypto archeologists is often that they mix up with postmodernist stuff exaggerating how advanced ancient societies were. THAT pushes off the mainstream. However the mainstream even denies the younger dryas catastrophe and the end of the ice age ending suddenly...
I was on a construction crew in 2016 at a old sears building from 1924. Concrete takes a 100 years to cure and concrete is weak and brittle compared to granite. I had to drill out 3)4 inch holes in this 100 year old concrete. It literally took forever and i used many hammer drill bits. The idea of drilling out 6 inch hows on granite!! If you don't have diamonds on the bit you will be there forever! The only people who can appreciate this Ancient work and the true integrity of granite are those who have dealt with and worked with hard stone. People who've never done construction will never be able to understand, period.
I think it's mainly our modern day perspective that kind of blurs the lines of possibility. There are findings of stone age jewelry that are so meticulously crafted it's hard to believe people were spending a couple hours per day for months if not years to create just a single piece of jewelry. But it might be very well possible that after survival they would dedicate all of their remaining resources to find meaning in something - be it in a believe, in trinkets, astronomy etc.
@@wildcountry. Or we just lack an understanding how they did it with simple tools. Here's a video how one person can move and lift a 20 ton block ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-E5pZ7uR6v8c.html Most blocks used in pyramids are close to around 2 tons. A lot of things are possible because our minds are so good to come up with solutions.
You must be the worst builder I’ve ever come across, I’m an electrician I work in building sites all the time I’ve witness people chisel and work on granite with hand tools. You don’t NEED diamond drills, you use diamond drills because they’re quicker.
lol You have to watch the whole podcast. That's Randall Carlson, he's the most intelligent/level headed among them. He's also a berserker. He has a big info dump at one point in it too, takes everyone to school.
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 hey stupid fuck. did you know NOT one of these experts has ever been on any sites , they got their degrees by reading a book. graham physically and went scuba diving in deep oceans. he can verify what others wrote about. tell me who the fuck the expert , you uneducated moron.
Yes they did, nails, wood off cuts, pieces of plasterboard, wall plugs, packaging from wall sockets etc. 10 years in working in construction you see it a lot.
Even if hypothetically you can’t find the tools, we have the structure. They must have been built somehow. The tools existed. Whether they are destroyed or we just can’t pinpoint their location is irrelevant. We know they existed.
The skeptic in this vid could not have been much worse about trying to argue against the main points of lost civilization though. He honestly strengthens what he's trying to argue against more than anything else.
One thing that strikes me: If only 1/20th of the already-astonishing and game changing Göbekli Tepe site has been excavated, how is it that every archaeologist in the world isn't walking around door-to-door collecting donations like the old _March of Dimes_ to fund the rest?
His name is Randall Carlson. Very interesting guy. He doesn’t step in as archaeology isnt his profession. He’s a geologist. Listen to his podcast with Joe rogan 1v1 - you won’t regret it!
LMAO I read this and thought you were referring the main guy and was reading comments when suddenly Randal: “IT SEEMS TO ME...” Lol I go holy shit! Where do you come from?!
He basically says cave paintings are are more interesting and the same thing to make the pyramids or Göbekli Tepe. Just no anyone can walk into a cave and do what they painted right now but no one can make the Göbekli Tepe or the pyramids the way they did back then with no modern technology helping them. what a stupid thing to say and he is more educated then we are on this topic just shows educated people can still be stupid at times.
He’s referring to abstract thinking and those cave paintings he’s talking about are 40 50,000 years old compared to something that was built 30,000 years later
We find tools in ancient archeological sites all of the time. Tools get lost, thrown away, forgotten about, etc. You’d expect a hyper-advanced civilization to leave something behind beyond structures that have more reasonable explanations behind their construction
What's the matter with you using common sense like that? Don't you know the world revolves around scientists they should have been honored to leave behind their precious tools for scientists 10,000 year later.
@@dudelikeseriously8418 Who says it was meant to be hidden? Like the guy above you says we don’t know who buried it. It could’ve been another people who came long after the creators. Could be beefing tribes, tribes who didn’t worship those gods who couldn’t destroy it because of how large and advanced it was tried to bury it... Also as someone who uses tools everyday I’m very meticulous about cleaning up & making sure all my tools are accounted for, and my tools are no where near as valuable as theirs. I can go to any Home Depot to grab drills or tons of wrenches, they were building their own tools which took time and more precious. Why would they leave them behind unless they died with them which is usually how ancient tools are found.
Cave paintings to moving megastructures is “not much of a leap” ? It could take months to move a single stone and it would take days to paint.. Absolutely a masterclass by Randall and Graham in critical thinking.. I look forward to the Graham and mainstream dude that are going to debate on Joes show in late august 👍
What do you mean “critical thinking”? Believing in something that has no basis in evidence is the antithesis of critical thinking. Simply questioning academia is not critical thinking. Please question mainstream scientific theories, and work towards proving the theory; that is how science works. Coming up with your own theories that have no basis in scientific evidence is story-telling, not science. Hancock keeps saying he’s not a archeologist, yet wants to be accepted as an expert by the archeological community. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.
I super miss this Joe. I remember watching this after work years ago while cooking dinner and then waiting to finish watching it before eating. I still remember that night. Now I often find its a lot of anger from either Joe or guests or something way too focuses on a minute detail of society (i.e. so called culture wars).
I often wonder if guys like Carlson actually believe their own grift or it it doesn't matter at all as long as people buy the books and invite them to speak.
I love when David makes a perfect example of what Graham is saying, in an attempt to refute it. . It is 100% a great explanation for how these two key technologies came about simultaneously in one generation.
'academia' is toast these days - 'copper chisels' ????....... 'pounding stones' ????....... 'tombs'????.......... nobody is buying this nonsense anymore
Michael started by saying there is "no evidence to your claim so it is not true" then goes "There is no evidence so my claim is true". rules for thee but not for me
My ancestors were hunter gatherers just a few generations back and from what I know there was very little FREE time. As a 65 year old man who hunts, fishes and gathers from the land for fun, even with all the tech (jeep, gun with scope, boat and four wheeler), to feed, clothe and shelter a family of four would take a considerable amount of time from the day. If they were agricultural and the climate was as volatile as stated, then crop failures would not allow them enough food to support the workforce. Logic would dictate they did both and maybe had to adapt their methods as the climate varied.
You are not factoring in the elder members of those groups, they had more time to plan and discover how to do things like our society today. Full-time scientists are less than 1% of the population. Most inventions are made by a SINGLE MAN, then everybody else learns to use the invention. Get it. The Maya calenders, like all of them, were developed by the priests. They had time every night to sit there and watch the stars.
I was thinking the same thing. Hunting takes more time than going to store. You can’t just drink water unless it’s pure of bacteria. So they’d have to heat up the water. Fishing always takes time and patience;maybe they had a net.
You forget that not everyone was busy. The priests in Mayan society came up with their amazing calendar. It must have been the same at gobekli tepeh. Think about these days, scientists spend so much time on fusion and cern collider because the rest of us work to provide for all the basic needs of everyone.
boomer understanding of time in full display you're so far removed from your hunter gatherer ancestors that they wouldn't even recognize you as the same species, chill grandpa
@@youruncleted not so removed as you say... as a child we had no running water, outside toilet, wood stove, hunted and fished, gathered berries, gardened and the harsh winters were real special. I did not have a phone until my first day of college, even then I had no one to talk to anyway, lol. As for the name calling, I guess that just shows how insecure you are with your pampered existence.
a few years back my brother and i were driving through a state park and at one point we came across an old pickup off the side of the road completely rusted through with trees growing through it. nature can swallow of traces of civilization in decades, so just imagine what 10k years can do.
Agreed. Also the search for trash and tools Which tools and trash are you exactly looking for this is long before the invention of plastic which trash are we expecting to find? Tools from which material exactly that we can expect to still be found ?
Exactly why I argue that most scientist (people with degrees) are mostly mrons. Most of them, having an experience working with more than a few, don't want to see what happens in front of there eyes if it challenges their own dogma, and they do amazing mental gymnastics to justifies their own believes.
@@ivandelac764 lol do you have the same degree or are you a book warrior with out a degree but you believe your smart you need the schooling to know what the hell you’re talking about or why have the degree
I'm in turkey now I will go and find the answers stand by folks Update 2023 people keep asking for updates i only encountered cannibal chickens my mission ended there. My conclusion Turkey is a land of ancient structures and cannibal chickens go check it out 👽
Graham sounds more educated, well thought and well spoken than Michael Shermer and Graham is not a trained scientist. Meanwhile Michael Shermer seems to be trying very hard to dismiss Graham's theories with weak arguments and he was fighting a losing battle.
Almost like it’s a silly way to communicate what is true. Debates are fun, but judging what is true just because someone is more well spoken seems silly to me.
@@bisk1407 Debates are worse than that. There are various tactics that can be used, by a skilled and aggressive debater, to make your opponent appear weak or wrong or to force them into a corner which the audience may not see happening right before them. Debates are more akin to salesmanship than discussion.
I would like to recommend Miniminutemen, a channel here on RU-vid that made a multi part series discussing every point and episode Hancock made in his Netflix show and explains and debunks all of them. I was intrigued by Grahams points but watching Miniminutemen really put it in perspective how ridiculous some of his claims are.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781- "Miniminutemen"? Are you seriously recommending that garbage channel? Why not some low IQ TikTok influencer then, or some trash cable television channel like the History Channel, or The Learning Channel (TLC)? I'm just asking.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781 Miniminutemen did a very good job on some points, but i felt they, like this michael guy missed the point of some of grahams statement. Ultimatley, we know have buildings from atleast 9,000 bc. Miniminute men seemed to give very crap explanations on that point. Either Hunter Gatherer somehow how the extra man power to be able to have astronomers, and skilled labourers. which is unlikely considering evidence of agriculture was in mesopetamia atleast 13,000 years ago. Or there was a civilisation before the sumerians. in which case Graham would be off by a couple thousand years but still would be ultimatly right about a lost civilisation.
Shermer: "We can't find pieces of broken pottery or discarded tools, so there is nothing to see here". Hancock: "Did you happen to notice the monumental megalithic construction, by any chance ?"
@@Prometheus4096 What if they didn't make pottery? What if they carved wooden bowls or had naturally occurring vessels? Also, didn't they say it was purposefully buried, implying the people left, and, on top of that, that they've uncovered only ~2% of the structures? The lack of pottery at this stage isn't ruling anything out, imo.
here's an idea: people built the site. Conditions changed- climate, drought, famine, maybe war, something- and the people who built it were gone. New people moved in and started farming. They found the old stone 'gods' on the hill unnerving. It's like living next to somebody's graveyard. They didn't dare destroy it and risk the wrath of these unknown gods, so they buried it so they wouldn't have to look at it.
@Nick Nack but regardless of the construction process they carved stones and built a massive site and lived in that area for that long, with a population big enough to build those structures, and you think they wouldn't have been able to make pottery? Nothing else but stone would survive for 12000 years.
Noah Headley That’s big Santa Randall Carlson-genius of a guy. Interesting his input into the debate pretty much crushed schermer so Schermer pretty much ignored it😂
One of my personal theories about ancient civilizations is the reformability of metal. I suspect that people all throughout history would find metal from some older civilization and melt it down and reuse it because it is easier to reform an old metal tool than it is to excavate new metal. Clay pottery as well can be reused, just smash the pots to dust and let them sit in water for a few months and you have fresh clay. Even if it took a couple years, it would still be a huge source of reusable clay to have a pit somewhere soaking old clay objects. Also, things like wood and leather, they can be taken to make new things, and wood can always be burned. So I think that they could have easily had all these things, but in the eons since many people have come in and picked apart the reusable materials until there is nothing left.
Incredible point, as weird as it may sound primitive technology on youtube(the channel) always talks about reusing old pottery to either reinforce bad clay or as a way to just have more potting clay and credits many many ancient techniques from all over the world and it wouldn't be a stretch to say the same for another reusable material that's difficult to find
That's a good point, and we know that has certainly happened to some extent over the ages. One example that comes to mind: there used to be a lot of iron on the Coliseum in Rome, but it was stripped off and made into weapons during times when Rome was under siege, and they never bothered to put it back on again. Throughout most of known history, the norm has been to repair something rather than throw it away. Only now have our manufacturing processes gotten efficient enough that it makes sense to create something new rather than repair something old.
It's amazing watching these men discuss this topic, I'm glad they were all able to have an intelligent discussion from different angles, I enjoyed every view point, it's weird when you're just listening and not trying to see who is wrong and who is right.
JRE at its prime. Interesting topics from not very well known people who have nothing but facts and very colorful opinions about things that actually matter
I very much like Graham, but I can’t help but notice his malice towards sherbet, whilst shermer does not show that same feeling. I think Graham had gotten a little too worked up in certain moments but I guess when you are THAT passionate, it would make sense for someone to want to defend the subject so vigorously.
If Shermer is correct, we are to believe that a group of hunter/gatherers stopped roaming while looking for food, and built one of the most impressive stone structures ever constructed. The length of the project and the number of people it would have taken to build such a structure would have required them to settle in one place. This would require them to farm and build dwellings to remain at the site and build the structure. I also don’t think that hunter/gatherer groups traveled in enormous groups of people. It is obvious that if primitive people built this with primitive tools it would have required lots of people to do it. For me, all points to advanced civilization.
Doesn't mean all the hunter-gatherers had to stop hunting and gathering, just that they supported some sort of artist caste who worked on the site day in day out, and ate what was given to them.
@@DonRicoKing I think that's the point. We can't find the evidence that archeologists want, except for the structures themselves. No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did. It opens up a whole load of questions that may contradict the establishment of archeology who have made their livelihoods on previous schools of thoughts, which is what we are all taught growing up. Sometimes the lack of evidence is all the evidence one may need
@@dp3699 "We can't find the evidence that archeologists want" that is what annoys me. You re suggesting that there is a mafia consisting of Archeologists. But that is not true at all. Archeologists are always extremely thrilled, then somebody makes a new discovery.
@@dp3699 "No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did." That is not right at all. There are mathematical and chemical methods to calculate when the building of the pyrmaids startet and ended. How they were build is a different story. It is true, nowadays there is no final theory on how they were build. There are different theories based on experiments and findings at the pyramids. There are also scientific scrolls. But with time the picture is getting clearer. For example some scientist found, that there was a now dried out waterway, which they use to transport the stones to the building site.
Attention Work Crew: This site is to be buried with reverence, and your tools are incredibly valuable. Please remove all tools from the work site at the end of your shift. Failure to do so will result in termination, and may enrage the gods. Thank you for your cooperation. - The Management
@Nick Nack Well, either way, it amounts to the same thing. The more we learn, the more questions we have to ask. It would be fantastic to excavate the entire site and learn more about our history.
Fact , we know when it was barried. That's the only fact . It could have been built the week before, the year before 10, 000 years before. Ant think 9n the Actual age the site was built is all just opinion.
@Nick Nack maybe it's just me, but the comment you responded to seemed to me only showing that the oft-repeated dating info only establishes a lower boundary on the age of the site.
@Jurassic Monkey Well im not an expert about the subject but our ancestors came to Anatolia around 1000 years ago. On the other hand Joe and his guests are talking about 11000 years ago. There is a huge time gap but, i heard from somewhere in the past that locals were considering the mountain top already a sacred place before the discovery. Ofcourse it's a rumor but thats what i heard. God maybe i heard it from this video can't remember, it has been 3 years since i watched it. :)
I am an Engineer that works with GIS and completed my doctorate in Megalithic Steucrures. I've been to Gobekli Tepe, Karan Tepe, several other Tepes in Turkey and several Tells in Syria and Lebanon (which are older that GT). The constant return to the cave paintings is extremely Euroscebtric....and there are his motives. Several academic papers have been written on the subject...the latest from the University of Istanbul in December 2022...Archeology is coming around.
Hey Graham...I'm 82 and a grandma and l started reading the Emmanuel Velikofksy books when I was 15. People laugh, but what's so fearful to skeptics about thinking outside the box? It's the "outside the box thinkers people" who have moved civilization forward while the skeptics have worked hard to stone, behead, imprison and burn at the stake the people who have looked at the ocean and said what's over there or looked at the heavens and said those specks of light are trillions of galaxies. I was a Physiotherapist for 43 years of my life and just getting people to think about new techniques was painful. To my way of thinking skeptics are bull headed because they lack imagination. The gentleman skeptic on this Joe Rogan program has the same hardened flat affect look on his face as 30 years or so ago. Keep searching Graham even if we never learn who carved and moved the Easter Island wonders or raised megalithic stones to the tops of mountains!!! ❤
During the conversation, they talk about the possibility that the builders of Gobeklitepe were hunter-gatherers and then that they were agrarians, but there is an important and overlooked space between the two, which is sedentary Neolithic cultures. These are people who settled in an area around an abundant, naturally occurring food source. In the case of Gobeklitepe, that food source was the ancient Einkorn wheat that is native to the slopes and valleys of the nearby mountains. Geneticist Spencer Wells said that all of the 17 varieties of wheat cultivated globally are genetically linked to this original native wheat. So people settled around it, ate it, drank beer made from it, watched it grow, learned to cultivate and all the while, they were adapting to the new concept of settlement. One of the first problems that arise when people begin to settle is waste management. Waste is a problem because it attracts pests, disease, and animals and eventually large predators that can be threatening to the vulnerable members of the colony. There is no evidence of habitation at Gobeklitepe because it was probably situated remotely from the dwellings. There is evidence of the site being in use for at least 2,000 to 3,000 years. Imagine how many people would have been born and died during that period of time. So what did they do with the dead? I think the stone circles were used for sky burials, which is a method of internment still used today in Tibet. The surrounding landscape was not very well suited for in the ground burials. Shallow graves were dangerous because they could be excavated easily by animals and the animals would cultivate an appetite for human flesh and would cause them to prey on the local population. I suppose cremation could have been an option, but it could be challenging in that environment to gather enough wood to fuel fires intense enough to cremate. Vultures do not and would not adapt to preying on humans. It makes a lot of sense to place the human remains in a stone circle with raised walls that were only open to the sky so that vultures and other birds could clean the bones, which can then be gathered and stored or buried by the surviving family members. There is evidence of both small t shaped pillars and bone burial under the plaster floors of domestic dwellings in nearby Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest known housing structures. Over time, as ritual sky burial use declined, people could have, simply out of habit or because it was the right thing to do in this place, used it as a landfill. It could have also been a place where people throw something in for good luck, like a penny in a fountain or when people rub the nose of a statue or something like that. My feeling is that the best place to look for clues of why these structures are there and what they were used for, is human nature. The habits, instincts, fears and desires that are naturally and deeply a part of all of us. The better we understand our own nature, the more we will unravel these kinds of mysteries.
I've seen this episode in full a few times and always catch myself on the clips. Every episode with Randal and Graham is worth watching. I would and do recommend it.
Respect to Joe here clearly standing up for Graham's none aggressive approach by pushing back for him when needed ,you can tell he has got Grahams back
'sticks up'? Micheal Shermer was extremely genial and polite and fully let his counterpart finish his part, in fact Graham interrupts him multiple times, Joe asked for a debate and already had a side he wanted to win, Randall asks reasonable questions in a polite way, if Graham needs to be 'Stuck up' for in such a cordial exchange, then very much his accent is doing more for him than his points
@cuth elar You must be another unimaginative archeologist like Shermer. If you listen closer to the argument you will hear that Graham makes point after point about Gobekli Tepe that makes actual sense. While Shermer consistently regurgitates the same worn out arguments. You can teach anyone to go out and dig up artifacts methodically and record it in their notes. Which is what most archeologists do along with attacking anyone that goes against the status quo. The only way science moves forward is because of the work of Mavericks in their fields of science like Einstein and an amateur archeologist names Schliemann. Schliemann was ridiculed by the archeological establishment until he actually found the mythological city of Troy. I swear the field of archeology is filled with dullards that just follow the crowd.
Graham was not only the aggressor but overly aggressive to the point of exposing his own biases and past injuries = Graham has clearly been hurt by either this guy and/or others that have argued against him and/or his ideas. Graham has clearly been 'professional hurt' in the past by the reactions of fellow scientists.
Hunter gatherers have to move about so that they do not over hunt an area and run out of food. They do not hunt one area long enough to carve 20ft long slabs out of stone, then carve faces and animals out of the stone in 3D, then move that stone and place it in a fashion that points to magnetic polar earth positions or astrological positions in the sky. Aboriginals were hunter gatherers when the English came here to Australia. They do not have megalithic sites. They did not do carvings into or out of stone. There are no pyramids in Australia. There are no astrological cave paintings. Nothing indicating knowledge of north or other compass direction. Nothing indicating knowledge of earths circumferance or longtitude/latitude position.
Not to mention that hunter gatherers would not have had time to both Hunt and build this shit all at the same time. Someone clearly had to be feeding the laborers that were building this place. There is no way that they would be able to hunt and gather enough food to feed a workforce of this size. That’s not really how it works. When you hunt and gather you are mainly hunting and gathering to support you and your family for the next day or two. You’re not going to be able to kill and or gather and or prepare enough to feed more than that at a time on a daily basis. This means they must of had a surplus of food which means they had agriculture.
You're actually wrong about Aboriginals, they were excellent and I mean excellent trackers and part of the reason was because they had a very good knowledge of what was North, South, East and West. There's actually an Aboriginal language that doesn't have the words 'left' or 'right' in it instead they use West and East, your 'west' hand and your 'east' hand, and it would chance depending on whether your hand really was facing East or West and it's thought their language developed this way just so they would have such a good knowledge of direction and again is part of what made them some of the best trackers in the world. How do we know they were such good trackers? Englishmen would use them to track escaped Aboriginals and they were very impressed by them.
Its a mistake to compare Australian aboriginals to other hunter gatherer societies. The Egyptians of the old kingdom were capable of far greater things than other societies of the same time for example. It is also a mistake to assume that a hunter gatherer society cannot produce a sustainable food surplus. it's possible that these primitives had methods of gathering food that far surpassed societies of the time, just like old kingdom construction engineering was peerless in their era. Further study is needed or you're just making assumptions.
@Stan Armenyan only an idiot would believe he lost the argument. I bet you believe property tax is a benevolent process. The type to kill if told by the "law". Since you are stupid I'm insulting you.
Pseudohistory, claiming that an advanced civilisation would've consciously chosen not to use metal tools - that's just illogical. But Hancock makes money off of these theories
Yes, Graham is a smart guy with quite original ideas. He's just so invested into his big ancient civilization hypothesis, that he keeps drawing these insane lines all over the place, so it feels like hes often pushing the envelope. My big issue with him is that he keeps playing the victim and talks about how he's under attack from the "archeology establishment" while refusing to even discuss/debate them, thats a red flag to me...
It’s not that Graham pushes it, he just can’t believe the fact scholars alter their theories to cover their errors in their research and still reject his ideas. They truly don’t know either. He said to Graham “we thought hunter and gatherers were not as capable”. The man is still not answering his question, “so they were an advanced civilization?”. Same brain, same skeleton, modern Homo sapiens. You just can’t research further because there were no tools, clothes, pots.., if it’s buried , on purpose or not, as humans we NEED to find out what’s there for our understanding of our own lives. Knowing if these civilizations exist would mark our imprint EVEN MORE SO as a living creatures in this vast universe. We must know our past history. Not a red flag, it’s a green flag to push to fucking find out what is there and how long we’ve been this smart for.
This Guy: "Why is there no tools or trash at this obviously sacred place?" Me: I've been to a bunch of churches and have never seen the tools used to build them still laying about or left my trash behind inside them.
@@theproprod211 That's a silly way of thinking. I live in a house that has literally NOTHING in or around it that tells people "how" it was built. I know how it was built, but there isn't anything to indicate that just kicking around waiting to be found by people. Generally speaking you don't leave all your shit laying around when you build stuff, because that would be both weird and wasteful. The tools and implements needed to build anything sufficiently advanced are themselves also advanced, and as such would be coveted by those who used them, not merely discarded and left to rot.
I'm an archaeologist and the sceptic guy isn't talking out of his ass, you usually find a lot of tools burried at archaeological sites, especially big ones
I'm so confused by Michael's argument or main point, it literally just sounds like he's just stirring shitpot of mainstream archaeology. It must be so frustrating to have a productive conversation in that field man 🙄
I thought that myself but after rewatching it for the 700th time I think he just wants some physical evidence, which actually makes sense. Although I’m with graham on this.
@@tadhgkeaveney4507 He wants trash and tools.. when the site hasn't even been near fully excavated. I don't lean to either side of their arguments, but that's pretty nonsensical.
It's so interesting that you have no choice but to learn something from this. If we can't have a discussion like this and debate about any subject, we shouldn't sit at the same table.
And after that, Michael and Graham went into the cage and Joe narrated the fight. Randall was the referee. Graham won by submission, Michael went to sleep from a choke, he couldn't even tap out in time.
Dude keeps on asking what they mean by "advanced" and they keep saying the construction was big, and intricately carved, but no one seems to drive home the addtional idea of the complex math involved
I wouldn't say that complex math is required. I've been in construction for 20 years and a relatively dumb guy with experience can build well and simple things like straight lines and plumb walls are easy to do. It's possible to create this place with moderate knowledge only a few generations after first attempting rock carving and building with stone. It's clearly more special than just a house of stone, so those people had this knowledge for some time.
I grew up in PNG - when I was about 8 I cut my forearm falling on a rock. My Papuan friend ripped the skin of a citrus 🍊 fruit. Thumbnail sliced it into quarters. After the first 1/2 hour the first piece socked up all the wound fluid. The second was strapped using the spine of a fern like plant. The skin dried shrank and squeezed the wound without stitches also insects stay away from citric acid. Very smart and I respected my learning in another culture as a boy in the 60’s.
You're absolutely right about the fern. It was probably an actual fern or a relative of the fern. You can take a fern and leave the spine as you call it on and just remove the leaves. When you get done it will look like a skeleton. You can take a thick Leaf like an oak leaf or a hickory or a beach and bandage it over top of the cut and somehow someway, the spine of the fern will draw up the skin and close it together and hardly leaves the scar. It's never been done to me but I've seen it done. Interesting story dude
Next time you cut yourself, put the thin membrane between the layers of an onion on it before your bandage. It will heal in lightning speed. I had a Peruvian prep cook show me that years ago. Primitive medicine is incredibly effective
Interesting watching this 6 years later where archeologists uncovered residential communities & businesses stretching across the land finding decorative beads, tools, etc within those 'communities'... I get Michael's thought process because I once was stubborn as well (still am but catching myself). At the end of the day we should never conclude on anything until everyone agrees on the answer. There's so much we don't understand and still uncovering that we won't answer in our lifetime. If anything we are still pioneers
@@garry_thomasalways people like you who slap “conspiracy” onto something to discredit it instead of being open minded to both sides. Anatomically modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years, it wouldn’t be a stretch to theorize that there have been “advanced” civilizations before that have been lost to time.
At the very end when Shermer states that cave paintings are equally impressive to mega monolithic sites, is absurd. It highlights the exact struggle that Graham had been claiming existed this entire episode but that Shermer was denying existed. "Mainstream" science doesn't want to do science things, such as asking question to push their own boundaries and assumptions. I'm here 6 years later, its great that Graham and Randall have a huge following where they can highlight some of these insane mysteries that others seemingly were quick to gloss over.
Cyance lol what exactly do you consider to be “logical” this is peer review in action. i don’t mean to be rude, but this may be what he’s saying; people aren’t exposed to fair debate and critical thinking-‘real’ knowledge is given to you in school and that’s it. it’s a stunted way of thinking to only consider total factual stuff limiting yourself and the convo. it almost stopped at the point they realized he dug his heels in almost for the sake of being a skeptic. i agree with you however in that this wasn’t that great especially the full version watch the clip or full one with SCHOCH and rogan. good luck and have a nice day.
Nick Nack i said in action. he’s a phd working out a scenario, a theory of course it’s not factual or guaranteed, a lot of science isn’t. it is however, important we DISCUSS things and not LIMIT ourselves.
@Nick Nack searches for entirely new ways of understanding and exporing unknown topics is helped by outside the box thinking. Just limiting any possible assumption to those already existing until you have overwhelming evidence otherwise is going to limit your potential for learning. Plenty of historians, archeologists included, get stuck trying to make any new evidence fit into existing concepts and theories and limit their ability to expand universal knowledge by staying within those limiting mental parameters. Guys like Einstein were famous for thought experiments that created new ideas and then seeking evidence to support them, rather than just looking at existing facts and analyzing g them from the standard viewpoint. My general point is it doesn't even matter if Graham is right or wrong, his proposals and ideas are worthwhile in the general pursuit of universal knowledge. Failed scientific theories still advance knowledge, and can often inspire new ways of thinking about other problems.
Graham's story about the New Scientist magazine is pretty revealing of how his brain works. He made it sound very ironic and vindicating, but if you listen closely, all that's happened is he saw the cover story that was published and decided in his head that his book "essentially" said the same thing. "Civilization is older and more mysterious than we thought" is a pretty broad/generic idea and it wouldn't even necessarily be remarkable if Graham's critics published the same phrase that Graham had published without realizing it, but just to reiterate, they did not publish the same phrase because Graham never published that phrase, he just retroactively used the phrase to self-describe his book and declared himself a victory. Finally, Graham's book is not "essentially" about civilization being older and more mysterious. The essential message of his book, which is much more specific and is written in the TITLE AND SUBTITLE, is that a higher civilization influenced all other lesser civilizations that came after it.
I have no clue how I’ve missed this podcast for so long. I’ve been glued since. Thank you for bringing the coolest topics ever. As a closet history fanatic this debate is amazing. Well done, very well done. New fan here 💪🏾👍🏾💪🏾👍🏾
If you look at NYC and Afghanistan, you’d wouldn’t think they’d be in the same world, let alone the same year in 2021. Whatever was there 12,000 years ago, lived like that and given the environment and the way the world has changed it has preserved everything the way it is. Certain parts of the world lived what seemed like different time frames. Not sure if that makes sense
@@kshelley121 You don’t even need to think about Afghanistan. There are currently many tribes in South America, Africa, Indian Ocean etc. who live way more primitively than the peoples of Göbekli Tepe.
someone that swears like that in a debate weakens their argument , it shows frustration . Having said that , main stream history , science and evolution is all lies .
Not a word from him about the Bosnian pyramids. They are being excavated and studied by scientists now the same as with Gobleki Tepi. Both sites studied at the same time. Now.
Laurence Kim maybe, but you’re saying that through a lens of modern Westerner who inherited Judeo-Christian sentiments. Not all cultures shared the same models of what is sacred or profane. Even today, religions differ.
@@greekgodx6560 Yeah, but think about how far away Stonehenge is from wherever they were living. Archaeology may never find whatever dwellingplaces the builders had.
@@conorbaker7684 Did you just assume someone's religious beliefs outright online? Damn lol. How did you know they were religious? And that it was of the western variety? Hey, speaking of which, since you "know a lot", which religious group does put trash on their religious sites??
triknives I didn’t “assume” anything. Laurence is a Western name, and Laurence was using a Western language (namely English), watching a podcost produced in a Western country,so it’s not a stretch of the imagination that they are a Westerner. You don’t have to be religious to think in a Judeo-christian paradigm. Actually, if you read my statement, the point is that you shouldn’t assume anything since we don’t “know it all” (your words, btw, not mine and I never said them). And being that the Aztecs had a goddess named Shit-Eater who absolved the sins of the world by eating their shit before they die, or the Christian gnostic sect which had ritualistic sex, or the institutionalized pedophilia/pederasty of several historical religions, I would say that it’s also not a ruled out possibility that a society that mayhaps existed 12k years ago may have not separated the sacred from the profane the same way that we do.
I'm not entirely done the video, but do they keep jumping around the fact that Gobekli Tepe is on an entirely different scale than anything chronologically close to it? If Gobekli Tepe was really built by advanced hunter-gatherers, then how come they, or other hunter-gatherers, fail to produce anything remotely like it for thousands of years? This can mean two things, either we need to do a lot more digging for structures around this time period, or there was a certain point of great advancement in our history, then they vanished and humanity slowly advanced from the ground up until where we are now.
Randal Carlson said that there was probably a massive climate catastrophe around thar time as well. So my guess is that wiped out any evidence of the trash Shermer loves so much
But do you notice how Michael Schermer is more impressed with the paintings. He is ignoring the advanced skill it would take to build structures like that in that time period! If he admits it's impressive it no longer supports the narrative that ancient people were dim witted.
Because the lost civilisation was the first people who taught the hunter gatherers their skills. Suppose for a minute Atlantis was the civilisation that was lost, the survivors making their way amongst hunter gatherers in order to survive. As those survivors die off and the knowledge and teachings of the technology they had to cut stone generation to generation gets weaker we gradually lose a lost part of our history with knowledge that is also lost. Imagine someone out of nowhere one time taught you how to build a bike and put it all together. If you passed the knowledge down to your children and them to theirs and so on gradually the skill and knowledge that this first person had would be forgotten entirely. The real mystery is who were these people who taught the hunter gatherers to do this and what other knowledge did they have that was wiped out of existence? like Graham said, we really are a species with amnesia.
I notice that Scientist do not talk about the culture that must have existed to create this site. Notice the carvings are not into the rock but are actually carved from the rock. This requires a higher level of artistry. In order to have these artists you need a support system. Using the model developed to estimate native American tribes prior to the Europeans coming into their lands, we know for each warrior it took 11 other Indians to support that one warrior. Now to support one artisan, you would need 11 people. People planting and growing food, people building houses, people making clothes, people making tools, religious leaders. This shows a large and well-organized society.
By definition, if hunter gatherers build a large monolithic structure, they are no longer just hunter gatherers. They are builders. Their name, which is given by what they do, must be changed to reflect building
Definitely. But we do have proof all over this planet, the Sphinx, Gobekli, all the citys and stone works along the coastlines under water off of many countries. Etc.....
@@RenR70 I agree 100% pretty much proven beyond a doubt that the Sphinx is 12,000 years old minimal. The early dynastic Egyptians said in their writings that they where a legacy of a early civilization ( zepteppy) . The plausibility of Atlantis. So if we have been around for 200,000 to 300,000 years as modern homo sapiens how many times have we climb to a advanced (more or less then today) civilization and wiped out by, comet/ meteor, plague, nuclear/weapons of mass destruction , etc.... and started over again. Not much is going to last for 20, 30, 40 100 Thousand years except stone.
We have civilizations today that still live like hunter gatherers. Why couldnt there be different peoples at different levels of development in the past?
Ignore the comments, I know what u mean,. Totally Agree In 1950's, men were the professional, made the money, to support family. Women got married, stayed home and had babies....except one that went to Harvard, then Cornell Law, and then to be Supreme court Justice. There are always outliers.
@Nick Nack Technically there are "civilization" living today with Hunter gather culture. Civilization is just a way to describe man made environment, there are plenty of Amazon tribes and island locked civilization that don't have modern cultures.
Great point. If one were to only find proof of European civilization dating back to the Medieval period, alien archaeologists would assume humanity was an awful lot stupider than they would if they were to discover an Arabian or Asian civilization dating to that time lol
@ " In this broad sense, a civilization contrasts with non-centralized tribal societies, including the cultures of nomadic pastoralists, Neolithic societies or hunter-gatherers, but sometimes it also contrasts with the cultures found within civilizations themselves. "
Why do all these skeptics always think that builders are going to spend probably their entire life building one of the most significant structures ever made on the planet and then just leave their shit scattered around everywhere like they’re not gonna clean up when they’re done.
What that other guy said, it's because when you look through a lot of big structures you find little bits here and there. A broken handle, or some guy dropped his old junky chisel down a hole and didn't want to climb in to get it back, or they find a stone hammer split into 10 pieces that they can piece back together and get a reliable idea of what it was, etc. It might be that these people simply didn't do it that way, but that would be kinda unusual.
@@davidj8321 and history also constantly changes. History also tells us that we were loin cloth cave dwellers until like 5k years ago and started building gigantic near impossible structures and then got worse at it as we went.
From what I understand, all gobekli teppe proves is that somehow humans figured out how to make a giant structure. This only shows that they were architecturally more developed than we thought. There are two possibilities here, either they figured it out in their own or someone taught them. On graham’s argument on why couldn’t this technology have been passed on by an advanced civilization to these hunter gatherers? Well that theory needs some evidence to gain support. Evidence like drawings or sculptures dedicated to this knowledge transfer. Or some proof of ancient technology which was advanced. Of which there is none. You can’t very well disprove ghosts but in order to believe in ghosts you need strong proof of ghostly activity. Similarly to claim that an advanced civilization existed, you need strong proof for this “advancement”. Also, graham hancock is deliberately vague on his definition of advanced. What exactly makes them advanced? What is the criteria for this advancement? If you can’t define that then how do you know what kind of evidence to look for?
Where's the evidence that shows a linear evolutionary trajectory of the technological advances made by hunter-gatherer bands in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of Turkey?
My theory about the pottery, tools, clothing, etc not being there for is if they buried it purposely, then maybe they cleaned it out first, took all their tools, pots, clothes, everything with value with them before filling it. But that still leaves the question why there is no trash, surly they wouldn’t take out absolutely everything..
Gobekli Tepe is quite a bit more advanced than the primitive cave paintings of Italy. Hard to imagine a bunch of nomadic hunter-gatherers suddenly learned advanced rock quarrying and sculpting techniques at such an early date. But it seems humanity has had pockets of more high-minded peoples going back 10s if not 100s of thousands of years. I think that wherever the Sumerians suddenly and inexplicably inherited their advanced civilization from, there is probably some link with Gobekli Tepe and other such yet-to-be-discovered sites in that part of the world.
@@harveyblevins74 I have a personal theory that certain sites of dense and consistent resources would sometimes bring multiple smaller hunter gatherer populations together, and I think a result of that established regional conglomeration was those multiple cultures coming together to build certain small cultural hubs to share those resources. I mean from what we assume hunter gathers would fight each other over pockets of land like this, but what if that wasn’t always the case, and some realized that if there was enough to go around everyone could benefit from it? Over time as the cultures would become more and more homogeneous, the sight would gain greater and greater cultural significance and grow larger, and as it grew larger more and more people would spend time around it leading to people spending time around large amounts of natural resources in turn to possible leading advancements in agriculture as population density would inevitably rise. I think this site in particular was a early-mid stage of this scenario happening
"Where are the metal tools?" Metal is a precious resource more so then stone so they would have taken it with them. Broken metal tools would have been melted down and reused. Historically during war people either used farming implements as weapons or they melted the metal tools down and turned them into spears and swords. After the war the melted them down again and turned them back into tools. Mystery solved!
