Joola says this is an administrative error. There is zero chance that the biggest sponsor in pickleball has it's premiere paddle line banned. They will be back on the list sooner rather than later.
@@vanadyan1674I really hope that isn't the case. Paddles have crossed the line with this current trend of floating cores that make power in such a way that will most likely move future paddles in a direction detrimental to the game. If it were up to me, the gen 3 Joola, Gearbox power pro series, and vatic oni line would all be banned and scrapped. No more floating cores. Pros were already criticizing the direction paddles were headed prior to these floating core designs. And now, it's worse.
@@italipino24 I don't really disagree with you, but it doesn't really matter what our opinions are. The reality is that these have already been manufactured, and the marketing campaign has already launched. Joola is the biggest sponsor in pickleball and there is a lot of money on the line. The money always wins out. Hopefully these paddles become the line that doesn't get crossed, but there is no way the biggest sponsor in pickleballs premiere paddle line is going to be banned. Zero chance. The best that you can hope for is that these Gen 3 paddles are the power limit going forward.
@@vanadyan1674 But it's not the company that is being banned, it's a line of products - they still sell a lot of other products. Would be the same like Selkirk Luxx - it's just a line out of many.
Another thing that’s worrying about this is that USAP said the Gen 3 paddles were approved and are now claiming they tested different paddles. So basically any company could send them paddles to be approved and then sell completely different paddles with the same name and USAP wouldn’t have any way of knowing
This is commonly what happens. Otherwise you wouldn't have all these highly gritty paddles in the wild. Manufacturers know you send in a batch that will pass and then release whatever and claim "normal variations in carbon fiber weave" and "made in China inconsistencies".
The only ethically sound, viable option would be to keep the same protocol of manufacturers sending in preliminary paddles for testing. Once approved, and paddles hit the market, secret shop the same paddles. If differences arise, address these differences and make a logical decision regarding those differences. It's the manufacturers responsibility to observe and ensure that there aren't any significant variances occurring in production that could compromise their approval status.
Thank you for your update. FUBAR! Excellent. PPA now has its own governing body. It has its own paddle-testing company (PPL). It now has its own Equipment Manufacturer Advisory Board. So, PPA has already proven that it will break any regulation or rule it has implemented, to satisfy the egos of its owners/managers. Remember PPL implemented the roughness grade and PPA instantly lowered it because (I heard) its top players' paddles would have all failed, especially ALW. So, the sport of pickleball takes thirty steps backward. / I bet you 25 cents that the new UPA-A approves all JOOLA paddles. / I agree. USAP has been useless for at least three years. JOOLA: We are letting all our dedicated purchasers know that you won't be able to use your JOOLA Gen 3 paddles anymore at USAP-sanctioned tournaments, but, we are delighted to announce that we will give you a $10 discount on your next purchase. Cheers. Just kidding. Maybe. Again, FUBAR!
That's not how life works. The testing process is run independently for each product. If the results seem inconsistent in the way that you point out, it's up to the vendors to dispute the testing process and to work to get the testing process improved. The new testing process will again run independently for each product. Results of the testing process can not be disputed as you suggest. Your kneejerk bullshit standard is not a thing. The testing process on the whole can be disputed as you suggest, but that's not a quick avenue.
I hope you understand it's not about the power only but other metrics as well, right? Is that trampoline effect they get, cause otherwise you just get a regular power paddle, add some weight and you get yourself a cannon. Ever tried a Black Ace? How about one with extra weight?
Thank you for the update!!!! Excellent presentation and I appreciate keeping us updated with significant activities happening in the pickleball world. Thanks again!
intersting thought. i know people have stated theres a break in period where the paddles get even more powerful. What if this is deliberate to pass testing while allowing a legal overpowered paddle
At this point they would have a class action lawsuit. They have already admitted fault by stating they submitted the wrong paddles. They continued to sell paddles as approved knowing they were not. At $300 a paddle this will be an issue if they do not offer fair compensation.
Great reporting and summary, Chris! Welcome to Pickle-gate! :D I have the new Gen 3 Anna 14" and love it and don't see any performance issues -- the whole thing seems wildly inflated and works mainly for a giant corporate take-over of the sport. Got my popcorn and comfy chair to see how this all falls out.
@@jeffcaptain6738 I wouldn’t use the word special to define the gearbox Pro. It’s the paddle with the most trampoline effect on the market, therefore making the ball accelerate off the paddle more than any other paddle I’ve ever experienced. The paddle swing does not match the ball velocity. It throws a lot of players off the kind of speed you can get hitting it in the sweet spot effortlessly.
@@user-hf1ot1wg5g Either I’m not good enough, or I got a dud. I’ve noticed no difference at all with the paddle, nor have I gotten any oohs and ahhs from my opponents. I’m getting more pop from my six zero.
Kinda wish USAP would grab some Joola Paddles from the shelf and test those rather than some cheater paddles Joola sends. And see if those get approved.
Thank you for sharing the most complete and objective report on what is currently taking place. Hopefully if there is an award for the best reporting of an event in a sport, you easily are one of the prime candidates for the award. Refreshing and very much needed is an understatement. You even managed to leave a space for others to make form their own educated opinions. B- -
Joola says this is an administrative error. There is zero chance that the biggest sponsor in pickleball has it's premiere paddle line banned. They will be back on the list sooner rather than later.
Great stuff as always! But in your next podcast you could correct so that people know. Just like Paddletek said what would/will hapeen, the new Bantam TKO-CX is now back on the USAP Approved paddle list. So Paddletek is clear but the Joolas at this point definitely are not. Thanks and keep your great podcasts coming!
Is UPA going to retest the hundreds of paddles, or is it going to be an administrative process only. If administrative in nature who is going to be doing the testing? When you have paddle manufacturers on your board, how is this not a conflict of interest?!! Sketchy in the best of terms.
are they giving you your money back or do you have to take a Gen 2 paddle? Mine core crushed already and i'm working with them. Now this happened and I really don't want the Gen 3 anymore. Money back would be best but I'm assuming they won't do that.
maybe, but all those other companies are not happy with Joola's gen3 paddles and are likely not willing to just let Joola have all this hype - they'd probably like Joola to fail. Hopefully there will be some good & new paddle standards coming out with UPAA
@@Aaron-mn2ro none of those are the governing body for their respective sports. They are the top pro league and have their own rules, but they don’t govern amateur play.
Thanks for the update Chris! I hope this situation gets straightened out quickly. It's really hurting the sport. The UPA, at least in its current form, seems problematic. Having paddle manufacturers on the advisory board creates a conflict of interest. We had someone on the challenge court using a Gen 3 paddle with such force that nobody wanted to play against them. This sport is still in its early stages, and I sincerely hope this doesn't negatively impact the sport we all love. Here's to hoping the USAP and UPA can find common ground and work together to keep the sport fun for everyone.
I've played on court with both. The Gearbox PPE is still noticeably more powerful, especially on overheads. It's approximately equivalent to an EVA core paddle.
Joola says this is an administrative error. There is zero chance that the biggest sponsor in pickleball has it's premiere paddle line banned. They will be back on the list sooner rather than later.
The USBC bowling congress has had to deal with bowling ball tech analysis and approval process for decades as bowling tech has gone wild. Both these organizations should take a page out of how they handle ball approval and spot checking for compliance at major tournaments.
I hear Joola may be filing a $45 million dollar lawsuit against the USAP. I hope so, this is long overdue!. What independent body is overseeing the USAP testing model, holding them accountable, making them more timely, more responsive to their clients? The USAP is the problem! They have no transparency, and no accountability, they're a black hole. Who is the third party tester, what is their company name, what are their qualifications, what is their track record, years in business, customer list, customer references, what scientific equipment are they using, where are their detailed, published, scientific test results for each paddle tested? The USAP collects too much money, tens of millions of dollars, to be shrouded in such secrecy. Sunlight is the best disenfectant. Pickleball is going soft with all this talk about injury, liability etc. There's a simple solution, wear protective eyewear, when compared to paddle prices, this is a simple, cheap solution. Don't dumb down pickleball more then it is. Be progressive, continue to evolve, keep an open mind, remember your viewers.
Yea I think non biased reviews like this Chris’s are so good for your channel. If you ever start leaning in favor of one thing over the other and become even slightly biased I think your channel will lose full integrity. I say that in a positive way, I think you giving honest feed back that MAKES SENSE is why you have come so far and we appreciate it!
Whew. A lot of damage control needed here for Joola. Also fascinating insight regarding UPA and USAP. Has there ever been talks between them to move toward universal standards? This is a mess.
I'm sure there have been universal standards talk. The talks go like this. PPA - "We would like USAP to come under our control". USAP - "But we are an independent organization and don't think that make sense for the sport". PPA - "Fine then, we don't care about the integrity of the sport, we care about making money and will squash you like we have done to every other organization that hasn't bowed to our will"
The real solution is to stop playing in the PPA tournaments as amateurs. They charge way too much and you don't get enough games. Boycott their amateur tournament and maybe they will get their act together.
Could it be USAP removed Joola Gen 3s off the approved list after realizing the production line models aren’t lining up with test results from paddles submitted? I mean who really caught them red handed and is Joola backpedaling by saying : “oh, I’m sorry, we submitted the wrong paddles”. Sounds like USAP auditing production line paddles and on a witch hunt. Either way, what a mockery!
Just played in a non sanctioned tournament over the weekend, where they emailed us on the friday before that they were going to honor the usapa paddle list. So the gen 3 was not allowed. Had to switch back to gen 2 for that tourney.
This sport is a mess and USAP’s a joke! They approved a paddle then unapproved it w/o a clear explanation of the attributes that infringe on USAP standards.
Are you asking what rules they broke that should get the paddle banned? Because if it’s that then the answer is they are not allowed to put compressible materials in the paddles core that in any way act like a springboard or trampoline…. Foam is pretty compressible and springlike. Chris put up the actually rule and reference number in his Vatic Oni review. But if you’re asking for historical data for why they SHOULD be banned, the answer is explained if you look at the history of racquetball. The sport had a meteoric rise just like pickleball is experiencing. And then the sport basically died when all of the racket companies kept coming out with stronger and faster rackets. Eventually the speed of the ball made it undesirable for new players to even want to get into the sport because it was just too fast. Also, the new paddles make watching super boring. Several pros have already commented on this including the Johns brothers. But basically they said the point either needs to be won in the first 3-7 strokes or it will fall into a dink rally that can literally last minutes because everyone is too nervous to make the first speed up. And lastly, they just aren’t fun to play against and are frankly pretty dangerous. Especially at the rec play level! I don’t want my opponent who is still learning how to dink consistently to have the ability to basically put the ball through my chest! Haha. They definitely can’t aim that thing with any confidence and I’m the one in the firing range when they shank a ball into my face! No thank you.
Once you approve it you can’t take it back without evidence. I don’t see any. If they would’ve banned the Gearbox straight away this wouldn’t be happening. Nobody would know it happened at all.
How do you submit the "wrong paddle"? Go get one of the new paddles off the shelf and submit it. Where is all the decision making on which paddle to submit? It is Gen3 or its not?
Finally, someone who understands the situation and gives a thoughtful analysis, and not just throw out the key word "banned" on the title like some other RU-vidrs did for shock value. Thank you.
IMO ... if USAP doesn't pass the Gen 3 models then Joola is going to tell USAP to take a hike, they will get quick UPA approval and tell customers they are UPA approved and do very little for the customers as far as options. USAP will be irrelevant within 1 year as it relates to paddle/ball approval and within 3 years they will be totally irrelevant even as it relates to rules.
Played against magnus and Perseus gen 3 paddles yesterday. I had the adrenaline rush returning them balls back to the sender. If you know and watch pbstudio paddle reviews, you actually have data to expose the power paddles. They are bad at resetting and blocking for the most part. That allows more pop ups. Which in turn allows more put away shots. I can't wait to play against them some more. Test my strategic theory for these paddles. I did it to the black ace and a lot of super poppy paddles . I bet it works on those too. One last note. TRUE Athletes embrace the challenge. If you never did much sports growing up, then decide to pick up a sport later on in life, then i can understand the gripe. I've been playing sports all my life and i know that an athlete can build speed as well. Train harder and the results can prove itself. Top athletes do it all the time. I'm up for a challenge, are you?
I'd agree with this, if it wasn't for somebody I just met earlier tonight who had baby soft hands with the Gen 3 Magnus & quite literally... just did super drops into the kitchen that I couldn't get to😅 least until I knew that's all he did. But regardless, that touch was insane even with my drives going to attempt that tactic. So this CAN work, but you better pray your opponents don't have God like tennis volleys or you're kinda screwed lol
As a recreational player who plays tournaments now and again, I often wonder what USAPA even does for me. I figured their major role was to think about (ahead of time ideally) and construct reasonable paddle regulation and guidance. It's like they have literally been static as EVERY paddle manufacture finds ways to out maneuver them. They simply made up paddle guidance like this "what are they making paddles out of right now ? Polymer hex core and grit? ok... lets keep that.... can't have em too gritty though... lets give guidance on that... oh, there is more one type of grit? Can't make current paddles illegal... so let's just let them test around the paddle until they can pass... don't want to piss anyone off...EVA foam... Hellll no! Too weird. Screw that Dong guy! What???? There are approved paddles already hit just as hard as EVA? Are they hex core and gritty? Well... I really didn't want to have to think this hard today" - USAPA
That's because there are no harsh punishments. How would it be like "if you try to go around the rule all the paddles from this brand are banned for 1 year"?
I'd be interested though to hear what you think about this possibly being a good thing that the Joola Gen 3s never come back. In your prior video, you voiced some reasonable concerns and arguments that the Gen 3s were not good for the long term game and especially rec play. could this be the powers that be trying to right a previous wrong and protect the long term playability of the sport?
Former Olympian here(2000/2004). Been playing pickleball 14 months now. I would love to see the sport make it to the Olympics & I am sure it will. UPA is a good step towards that.
UPA-A run by the top paddle manufacturers and advised by pros that use those brands. Good luck to all the smaller companies wanting to break into the market...
This exact same thing happened in slow pitch softball years ago. You had a ASA approved bat and you triple SA approved bat On top of that chaotic mess, they also used different balls and different rules. This is not something new
USAP should of never let them pass. I hate the gen 3’s but I don’t like the walk back to say now they are banned. Unless they somehow didn’t test the actual GEN 3’s and JOOLA pulled a fast one
Well, imagine you make a car with a device to control the emissions that is designed to go bad in 5000 kilometers, just enough to pass the initial testing.
Chris, softball ran into this EXACT problem in the late 90s...they made 2 associations, ASA and USSSA and they both have bat standards that are different from each other...at first it was a 98 MPH and a 100 MPH for the differences and now they use compression standards (sounds familiar right?)......so as a softball player, if you want to play in both organizations, you have to have 2 bats or in my case, 30...LOL
Such a conflict of interest by the PPA. As much as they make it seem like they don't need the USAP, there is no way the PPA can take on the role of approving all the paddles out there on the market. I also think it's funny there is no mention of the gearbox paddles anywhere.
@PickleballStudio I don't see how they are contradicting each other. I don't see how (7:12) JOOLA is saying USAP came to them and said we(USAP) noticed that there is a problem. (This is speculation unless you have some facts to back up this statement.) I see it that JOOLA told USAP they gave USAP the wrong paddles on Novembver 2023 (this is mentioned by JOOLA as an administrative error). Then in turn USAP de-listed the affected paddles. That is in fact the first line of JOOLA's response of JOOLA was informed by USAP of their decision to remove the Gen3 paddles. (Yes, JOOLA omitted that they went to USPA first but not a contradiction just an omission.) A does 1. B does 2. A starts a statement by saying B did 2. You can ignore me if you have insider knowledge that USAP did in-fact noticed an issue first but I don't like speculation without facts.
I expect that all of the paddles that use polypropylene core and lots of foam will exhibit high failure rates. Polypropylene is inordinately difficult to bond for long term durability.
PPE, Gen 3 and Oni should all be banned. When they test with the new exit velocity test, they should test paddles that are “broken- in”. This way manufacturers can’t design paddles that pass initial testing, but get super hot shortly after breaking in.
How to kill the golden goose: ego, greed, and stupidity. Fragmented rules, paddles gone amuck, hidden agendas, poor communications, etc., etc. What a sad state of affairs.
I can't see these equipment manufacturers and pros wanting to do the day to day work that USAP does currently... Has the UPA-A even created a rule book yet? Who in this group will want to look at hundreds of proposed rule changes every year and go through each submission item by item... I'm sure the PPA/UPA-A would love to get the 80,000 USAP membership fees though... Membership fees to UPA-A will go up to pay for all these pro's and manufacturers' time...
With respect to paddle testing, for the good of the sport, there needs to be an independent, transparent, and publicly accessible/accountable advisory council, consisting of various representative stakeholders, including players(both professional and amature), equipment manufacturers, tour owners/administrators, tournament platform providers, tournament organizers(both professional and amature), rating companies etc. Until we have this, as well as full transparency, with respect to exactly what testing is being done(including exact terminology and definitions), what exact equipment/science is being used, what exact standards must be met, and exactly what specific failures are occuring, we will continue to have various private/secret political agenda's dominate paddle testing, resulting in ongoing frustration, confusion, speculation and distrust in the marketplace.
Going to be hard to purchase one of these if they stay unapproved and then you show up for play somewhere. They standout in a crowd with their color ways. Shame for now. You could foreseeably pick one up cheaper in this small window though. 🧐
I have less than 10 hours on my Magnus3. Even if this mess is resolved, I don't really want to be associated with this mess at my local rec courts. Will I just eat my cost? Pretty scummy all around. Joola needs to offer full refunds to folks like me, or they will never see a dime going forward.
Who owns player ratings? I think that's all left for UPA-A to own and control...all that power with one governing body sounds like a disaster and corruption waiting to happen....
3:37 So essentially these manufacturers will heavily influence paddle standards for this new governing body? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there's a pretty big conflict in interest. There's a reason most governing bodies stay as independent as possible.
USAP approved paddles are for USAP Sanctioned Tournaments _ PPA/UPAA Tournaments are not sanctioned. (Look at the Rules for the Serve _ USAP has a set of Rules, the PPA has their Rules and, apparently, there is a new Serve Rule for MLP.) As for as being an 'Approved' paddle, it only affects players who play Sanctioned Tournaments. Rec play is for fun - you can play ANYTHING. (who do you think have been playing the EVA Foam paddles)
I don’t think the comment from the USAP and the comment from Joola contradict each other. I think Joola made USAP aware that they submitted the wrong paddle the day or two before, and USAP made the decision to remove them from the list so both statements to me sound true. Why would Joola make USAP’s decision for them? They did the right thing by informing USAP that they submitted the wrong version of the paddle and let the USAP make a decision. Chronological order sounds right to me. Also, maybe the paddles that were sent were not the final version but the final version is still within the parameters for approval. The USPA still has to test but if that’s the case then the final retail release should be approved. It’s not that the paddle is an illegal paddle (yet) it just hasn’t been tested so it’s not on the “approved” list.
Thank you for following along better than everyone else on this thread! Nowhere yet is there any indication that the Joola Gen3s are considered too powerful and therefore will not be approved. In fact, the evidence that Gearbox and Vatic Oni are still approved confirms this is not the issue. Joola screwed up in some way, but it seems highly likely that new testing of the released paddles will yield approval. Also, let's be willing to consider that this whole scenario was dreamed up by the Joola PR team, and ends up actually helping them in the long run.
