The #1 reason I watch is because I have nobody else in my life who reads epic fantasy and want to see someone else discuss books I've read and add to my ever growing TBR list.
"The characters are frustrating, but that's part of the fun".....best way to say it. You don't have to like or agree with characters for them to be good characters.
Me after book one: Ehhhh it’s aight. Me after book two: Yeah I’m hooked. Damn, what an absolute banger! I was scared that it wouldn’t happen but I’m completely and utterly hooked from this point onwards.
Finally! I started the series alongside you guys and I’m now just about done reading book 3. So far this one has been my favorite. Book 2 was such a big improvement from the first imo. Austin’s score makes so little sense to me haha. I think this one was so much fun and made me care a lot more about Rand and made me way more interested in the rest of the story. So as a first time reader I think this one is really good. Looking forward to your episode on book 3!
Oo glad we got you to start it and that you’re liking it! I’ll have to catch up to you and keep pace - hoping to like book 3 a lot more, Im looking forward to the direction it takes at the very least
@@2ToRamble yeah I’ve been enjoying it quite a bit so far. I don’t know if I’ll keep up with one book a month since I’m a slow reader but it’s a kinda fun challenge. So worth a try I think. Im definitely leaning more towards what Richard feels about the series but obviously not as much yet. I do think it’s been fun so far and I’m liking the characters and world, so definitely feeling more positive about than you Austin. 😄 Finishing book 3 today and hopefully starting book 4 today or tomorrow.
I finished the series about a month ago and I have to say my favorite part about the series is how Jordan develops a bigger picture through various very unreliable perspectives. The flaws and biases of each character is so firmly ingrained into the world and culture they grew up in, and the aspects of the character that makes you hate them are integral to their arc later on.
Richard's comment about the frustration being the fun part is probably why I'm on book 8 and I started reading them at the end of March. lol. What you as the reader knows is so vastly different than what each pov character knows that it makes the series sometimes very frustrating to read but also a heck of a lot of fun to read too. I was like Austin with Rand in the beginning, but in books 4 and 5 he really started to grow on me. Rand''s "Aw crap, I guess it is me" moment at the end of book 3 made me laugh out loud.
I had a similar opinion to Austin (be better) about books 1 and 2--maybe around a point higher--when I read book 3 it easily became my favorite book in the series. I cannot describe to you how much this series really steps up after that. I even found "the slog" to be so much better than the first two.
Ive never read a fantasy book in my life but now find myself seeking your videos out. Love your enthusiasm. Might even start with the wheel of time as my first dip in to fantasy
Granted, I haven't completely finished The Great Hunt. It's been a slow burn for me as well, but it's expected with the first books in a long series. I must say, I absolutely adore Loial. I feel like I connect with those types of characters. Same with Sazed from the Mistborn Trilogy. My favorite characters and can't wait to see their character developments and adventures.
I am with Austin on this and honestly don't think he will finish the series. In my experience reading them, the best was book 3 or 4, but not much better than 1-2. Then the series somehow got much worse. I was pulling my hair out reading 6-11(ish) and only stuck with it because I wanted to have the series done before the show aired. The ending is better but the entire series was still a 3/10 for me.
As someone who has never cared about spoilers, the reasoning is simple: I care about the ideas and concepts explored by a work and the characters being used to do that exploration. For me, the enjoyment isn't about being surprised by events (twists) or being happy that I correctly guessed the events prior -- it's about observing events and how characters react to them. I find people more interesting than the events themselves or the order in which they occur.
Edit- “Austin be better” “Are you not entertained?!?!” Is the vibe Austin is giving😂 recently came around to your channel and love it! As a writer that has a debut book releasing soon, I hope to one day have a spoiler free/spoiler review ramble😂
I love the banter you guys have, it reminds me of the back and forth shit talking I have with my best friend and it’s all good because neither of us takes it seriously
I don‘t get the Rand having no character arc arguement. In book one it was accepting leaving Edmond‘s Field behind and in book to it‘s accepting being the Dragon Reborn.
If Austin says he won’t reread the first two…man he’s gonna have a tough time in the series. The first 6 books are the best. You can say 3-6 are better than 1-2 but not that much really. If there are problems now I think books 7-10 will kill it for Austin easily.
I just finished reading book 3 about a month back. And I'm thoroughly enjoying this series. I don't think I can start rereading books this heavy on a whim though. This series atleast for me perfectly encapsulates the idea of a "take your time" book. Just not meant to be blasted through. Takes me 2-3 months to get through each of these but I'm always enjoying and enthusiastic to continue
@@2ToRambleI’m not done with it yet 😅. I thought book 2 was significantly better than 1 and books 3,4 and 6 were my favorite. I’m starting 10 now but books 7-9 have been so slow so far I just want to get out of the slog. Path of daggers was the worst and winters heart over path of daggers.
I am about to begin Book 11... I can't say "Austen, be better." With full conviction because I am having similar thoughts... even now, Rand still annoys me. Perrin is still my favorite, and everyone else has grown on me. Matt is one who is getting to equal level of Perrin, almost... back in June my cousin advised me to keep reading past book 8, and pause after Winter's Heart... but now things are picking up...obviously I didn't pause. I began WoT because it's one of my youngest sister's favorite series, and my cousin loaned me the books... about 10 yrs ago. It's been a journey... and I think it's been worth it. 📖🥰📚
I need to be like you and take 10 years to read the series just to piss of Richard 🤓. It’s definitely a slow slow pace for me but I’ll try to pick it up - sad to hear Rand is still the same for you damn!
I finished The Great Hunt today and came straight here to say, it’s a very good book. I gave it 5 stars on good reads and rate it at a 9.2/10, I genuinely don’t know what Austin’s issue is because it’s very good fantasy. Better than some of the stuff he’s praised ;)
Reading through WoT as well. I actually really enjoyed EotW and Great Hunt, though I think it's because I started reading fantasy less than a year ago and I've never read LotR. To me, this story felt weirdly fresh even though I was aware how derivative EotW is. Also since I started my fantasy journey with ASOIAF I didn't find the writing style to be sluggish. I read Final Empire for the first time in between Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn though, and trying to go back to WoT after being acclimated to a much faster pace of storytelling was VERY hard; it was super difficult for me to get through the first 2/3rds of Dragon Reborn (though the climax was awesome, as is customary for this series I'm coming to learn). I got through the first 100 pages of Shadow Rising and the same thing was happening. But then, for the first time ever, I decided to try using an audio book, and it's genuinely helped so much. I hear you, Austin. I have been struggling too. It feels like I'm missing something. I want to love this series so bad, and I felt like I was starting to after finishing Great Hunt. But for now, I just like it. I so badly wish I had a better attention span. I'm fully prepared to audio-book my way through this series until I get to the Sanderson novels; it's not my ideal way to read books but I'd rather do it that way than not at all.
This was a much needed comment - definitely feel like Im missing something too and wish I liked it more. We’re on the same page, but it looks like you got more out of the first few books than I did. Hope the audiobooking continues to work, I’ve been listening on purely audio so far 👊
I am so invested to see the WOT reviews! I'm 100% on Austin's side and have never felt so validated. I want to love WOT so much, but I've never made it past book 4. If Austin changes his opinions on the upcoming books, I may give it another shot though!
@2ToRamble it really does! It such an epic fantasy, it should be everything I love in a book. Always been stumped why I wasn't obsessed like friends 😅 Very curious to see if the series takes a turn for the better for you!
Enjoyed the conversation. Apathy towards Rand would certainly make this early part of the story difficult to connect with. The Great Hunt is one of my favorites in the series, and it’s certainly due to new characters in relation to an expanding world, plots, and universe building. I’m decades detached from my first read…so it’s tough to remember my initial reaction, but I know I enjoyed it much more than TEoTW, and it sold me on the series. I’m looking forward to your TDR discussion.
Thanks for your insight. I do hope Austin will find something to love in the third book. Btw I love your channel. I would love to come sometime and gush over WOT
Richard, finally able to express his love for this series, talking about how everything is great and will pay off in the future. ... Austin: RED RISING!!!....
Yeah I’m sure most people would just immediately accept that they were going to destroy the earth and be this horrible thing that he has grown up his entire life fearing. Would be totally normal for him to immediately accept lmao
I finished the WoT last month, and looking back on it... The Great Hunt was one of my least fav pre-slog books. Which seems to be a hot take. I found Selene's character annoying, in the sense that its obvious what her motivations are while everyone else is oblivious. That was my main gripe, with other minor ones popping up here and there. But i did overall enjoy The Great Hunt. Though i am interested in how a re-read will affect my scoring. Bc as Richard has said, the foreshadowing in this entry seems fantastic! I'd be particularly interested in seeing Egwene's perspectives this early on, as she does undergo some turbelent character development that seemes to ripple throughout her character arc.
Fair points - Im guessing that you’ll like it more on the reread just like Richard especially if you still overall enjoyed it on first read even with it being your least favorite. If you ever get to it, curious what ya think!
@@2ToRambleProbably won't happen for a while, but I will let you know! After the WoT I've been taking break from fantasy to cleanse my palette. But hearing your thoughts has a been a fun way of vicariously reliving the series. I hope you become invested by book 4 Austin! It's one of my favs!
I'm currently on my second attempt at reading the Wheel of Time and seriously agree with both of you. On my first attempt, I was very similar to Austin because I found so much difficulty in connecting with the characters and especially the villains. Once I decided I would re-read from the beginning, I took a very similar stance to Richard because everything fell so much deeper into place for me. the characters were no longer unbearable because I understood their perspectives, the world made so much more sense, and I could pick out the subtle foreshadows for future books which was wonderful. I would hope Austin really gets hooked on book 3 so that he can enjoy the masterpiece that is book 4.
Once again I agree with Austin all the way through 🙈 I just started book 6 on my first read-through, and I have to admit it's starting to drag for me... so it's a bit disheartening to hear that if you didn't love book 4 it's not likely to get better. I want to see what the fuss is about with this series, but it's just not landing with me like it seems to land for everyone else. But I'm stubborn, so I will get through it!
Im determined to see what the hype is about as well lol - hoping it picks up but that sucks it hasnt yet for you. I guess we’ll hoth see where this series goes 🫡
Yeah, the only reason I finished WoT is because I audiobooked it and there wasn’t anything else I was interested in at the time. If I had to actually read, no way. But, I understand Richard better now.
I will watch spoilers sometimes and sometimes I don't. I do it because of crazy anxiety... I realize that I am missing a reveal if I know what happens but I will enjoy reading exactly how it plays out anyway, where sometimes I get very anxious and not so great feeling with plot build up. I do the same thing with movies I always read Wikipedia while the movie is on, lol. That being said I've read all of WOT and love it
Honestly, if you don't like the first two books, I don't think you'll like the series. That said, I have trouble understanding rating Way of Kings so high compared to these.
Richard walks in the light, Austin has confirmed he is a Darkfriend, this book was insane, finally finished it for the first time and I was giddy lmao, 8/10
Finished The great hunt yesterday. Question about what you said at 1:04:32 where there is a set amount of souls. Did I miss that in the first book or something because I do not remember that being said or was it implied with the stone portal scene? Or did you spoil me (if you did gaslight me if u reply). >:( SPOILERS BELOW I really started to hate Rand in the middle of this book. His worst qualities started to shine when Selene came around in the mirror world. And also I felt like the pacing in terms of events happening could have been much quicker like I read 400 pages but the progress that we got out of it felt like it could've been cut down to 200-300, or even less if I am being brutally honest. BUT once I got to the portal scene where he touches the stone and the 4 months pass I was having a fantastic time right to the end of the book. The egwene stuff was so sad the mental torture, I was constantly turning the page to see Rand show up and save her. The twist the Suldam I think they are called are actually channelers was great and very satisfying revenge. (Although I wish Nynaeve killed them) Nynaeve maybe my favourite of this book, but Perrin is still my favourite over all for right now I think. Happy to go on to the next book. 7/10
I’m currently on Book 10 and the way character arcs unfold does make the world feel more real rather than having each character have a specific arc per book. Rand imo was not that interesting until Books 3/4 (both of which are my favorites) and this is really where the series hits a great balance between plot and character work moving forward (I’m alternating btwn WoT & Stormlight and while I like Stormlights characterization and plot detail more I’d say I like WoT’s character and overall plot more, which i hadn’t thought about until this video!)
Alright: a comment now having read the book, and another comment later if I have specific things to say in reply to your own thoughts once I listen to the full video! For now… this book was okay? It felt like it was structurally much better than the first book; the characters had specific personal goals, made decisions of their own, and things happened because of those decisions. But it was also somehow less entertaining than the first book; scene to scene, I just wasn’t having as much fun, even though the book as a whole felt much more purposeful. The first book felt like less than the sum of its parts (even though it had been built of fun parts). This book felt like *just* the sum of its parts, and those parts were okay but with one or two exceptions they also just weren’t super engaging for me, hah. (Main exceptions being: The plot with escaping the collars and figuring out what’s going on with that invasion (return?), the return of the Gleeman as a character, and learning more about Loial.)
Austin is right at 25:00 Rand doesn't know he's the dragon reborn by the end of book 1, only the reader knows. Whay Rand finds out at the end of the 1st is that he can channel, but not that he's the dragon. He finds out until book 2 when he meets with Siuan, Moraine and Verin and the beginning before the hunt begins
I gotta disagree with Austin, it's understandable to not like the characters! but they have arcs for sure, they're not as complete as Sanderson does in Stormlight Archive, like those books are more of an exception compared to a lot of fantasy. Wheel Of Time gives characters a journey across 14 books and they're great journeys, whereas Way Of Kings was giving Kaladin a complete journey while leaving room for growth in later books. But even Stormlight runs into issues where Shallan gets stuck with wheelspin for 2 books (another discussion) Rand sees his destiny and runs from it only to run right into it. He wants to go back home but he has to help save Mat, he pushes away his best friends because he doesn't want them to be hurt which just makes things worse cause they're still his friends. There's a chance to pursue 'selene' but he refuses, he sees all those other lives, many ways things could have gone horribly and we're only a small way into the story. It clarifies his position in the world and how vital it is he be the dragon leading to him taking down Baalzy while leaving himself open to a devastating injury. Mat gets stuck corrupted by the dagger so doesn't have much of a journey. I don't think Jordan was happy with this either. Egwene goes through hell and comes out traumatized with a deep loathing for the Seanchan and wants to never lose power again. I can continue but this is overlong already.
The Great Hunt Ingtar - You didn’t see his betrayal coming the first time? I thought it was being telegraphed super, super heavily that he either had ulterior motives or was being influenced somehow, One Ring or WoT dagger style. It actually got slightly annoying by the end; I liked the payoff when it came but had been waiting for it a bit longer than was enjoyable, hah. I agree that the denying invitations sequence was fun, hah. Though the worldbuilding of the way people approach politics in that city (the game of it) was… weird. I wonder if Jordan took any inspo from The Left Hand of Darkness? It felt almost like a parody of a concept from that novel, hah; the same concept taken to extreme until both Rand and the reader are sitting there going “wtf is wrong with you people.” 😂 (Which would be more effective if one of the main characters in The Left Hand of Darkness weren’t *already* frustrated with the whole thing, even despite the more subtle implementation in that book…) The Name of the Wind’s major saving grace is indeed the prose. xD I’ll probably read the next book or two, but if it hasn’t grabbed me by then I’ll be done. It’s hard to prioritize this series when I could be digging more into Tchaikovsky’s or Le Guin’s work, or continuing The Expanse, or reading LoTR for the first time (I skimmed it in middle school but that doesn’t count slskdjfhf), or finishing the Discworld books I haven’t yet read. 😅
Come on, Austin. We need more of what you think. Make it a Two-Hour video. I understand how you can be uninterested in the characters right now. I had the same feeling too when I first read this. "Why are these female characters fawning over Rand? or Why do things happen so easily for Rand?" To this, Robert Jordan is so good at incorporating plot armor into his world. Ta'veren, for example. You might feel like that because things have been so easy. In the next book, you'll see the full effects of ta'veren. Contrary to what Rich said, Book 3 will be bold but not different structure from Book 2. But there are so many things that are exciting in Book 3, apart from the structure. I hope you'll like my boy, Mat. And if you say a word about Nyaneve, I'm throwing hands.🤣🤣Keep your expectations about Rand a bit low. Book 4 is where this series breathes life. I'll be looking forward to that. I agree with Rich, here, if you don't like books 4 or 5, I'm ok if don't continue with the series.
The first time I read books 1 and 2 I didn't like them but I didn't hate them. Now it's amazing to see how the series developed. I have read the series over 100 times and see something new every time I read it. Honestly the series doesn't take off until book 3.
I love wheel of time and I felt the same way my first time through. Rand didn't become a favorite of mine until way later. Around book 6. Which is the best book. I think book 3 is where it really becomes it's own thing though.
New subscriber and was pleasantly surprised to see you guys are making your way through the Wheel of time. I would say that you guys should discus what happens in the book more. Right now it just seems that it’s one guy who loves the books(justify so) and one guy that is just comparing the books to storm light and red rising going back and forth trying to justify the rating. So much cool stuff happens with Lore and emotional trauma and none of that is being discussed. Also why is the wheel of time a rip off of lord of the rings but red rising not an adults hunger games? Coming from someone who loves both series.
@@2ToRamble hopefully it didn’t come off in a wrong way. I recently just subbed because I really liked the banter and chemistry. Long form discussion are where it’s at now and you guys have a really good channel. But I just thought it be a good idea to hear more about what happens in the book.
I feel like I am Austin in relation to this series. I am still floundering on book 3 and I just feel kind of meh about it. It's not like Jade City which I hated with a passion ... I feel kind of indifferent towards this series and perplexed at the love. I am hoping that once I finish book 3 .. I will feel more positive about the series. Also, I actually feel genuine pain / sorrow at how pained poor Richard must be at having shade cast on his beloved series. I am still determined to keep reading! :D
Recently read this book I didn’t like rand for a while too but what won me over was when they were arguing about going into the city to find the horn and egwene was there and Rands stubbornness pushed everyone to go and all of a sudden this bad quality turned into Smth I was behind him on supporting him
I also rlly liked when moraine shows how the whole book rand was leaving behind signs of hun being the dragon and shaking up the world even by doing nothing
I read all of WoT during 2022 and felt much like Austin during it. It was fairly underwhelming throughout and the slog was rough. I also read it after Stormlight so maybe that could be the reason. I find that people who read WoT first they enjoy it more.
I’m 100% with Richard on the wheel of time. Austin has never made me cringe as much 😂 I’m in my first read through and loving it so I don’t get his frustration. Austin be better!
44:28 Why do I watch this, even if there is no "value" generated? The same reason, why my dad watches the analysis of the soccer-game after the soccer game. I just read this whole thing and need some opinions to agree and disagree to.
I think maybe you might need to learn to love the art of the skim and you should be a master by the end of this series. Second was my favorite read through of this story. truthfully there are a few parts in most of the later books that i have never read because by then i fully refused to follow certain narratives. ive read most of these books for the most part 😅 multiple times 😂
I also just thought about a question. Has there been a book that you had world building as an 8 or 9 but characters and other categories were below a 5?
Spoilers don't matter to me because for the most part a good story and good writing stands on its own even when spoiled. If it relies on big "spoilers" it is usually badly written or it is the one exception to my rule... a Crime Mystery novel like Agatha Christie's stuff.
I don't think this is a great way to go through these books, Richard seems focused on the big picture of the series rather than moment to moment like Austin is the one to lay out each character and some of the big moments to talk about. And austin isn't really into it, reading to a schedule, because you've gotta do a podcast and ya friend insists that it's amazing idk. Like taking breaks to read other stuff and then coming back when you miss it, when you fancy a wheely, to engage with the book for what you enjoy seems healthier.
To me it seems u like dynamic straight forward characters who you can more sympathise and connect or understand their motives and as long as u can champion or respect their motives or morality as well as liking the books more the more they feed into this? Please let me know if ive hit apon something or not as i am only speculating and genuinely would like to know what you would say to these assumptions. I am writing this to the gentleman who gave this book a 5. As well as rating red rising the highest in the series so far. Just would like to know a bit more about your reasoning behind these decisions. Thank you i really appreciate both of your opinions as well as the way u challenge each other in a non toxic way
Appreciate the comment!! I (austin) would say thats partly true - definitely can get behind a champion character, but I can also become deeply interested in villains/antiheros/insignificant side characters/etc - to me it comes down not to just have good morals, but for me to deeply understand how the character thinks, hence making the character feel “real” - the more difficult situations and harder the journey a character goes through can help do this, or maybe it’s the decisions that the villain makes bc they have the power and is shows me who they are - whatever it is, I have this need to understand a character so that I feel connected to their growth and/or demise- the payoff to a characters journey isn’t very much worth it to me if there wasn’t an understandable journey to begin with. Thankya again, hope I explained myeelf in the limited text here!
@@VeronicaWebb-r1z That's definitely on the list and I've heard such good things. Going to get to that hopefully after we finish up Red Rising series on the channel!
See I don’t a have a problem with anyone giving that rating, as someone who believes that The Great Hunt is one of the best sequels I have read, my problem begins is that his complains are hyper subjective and kind of arbitrary he did not even attempt to articulate why this book is “bad”. For instance, when I say that the “Last Jedi Sucks” I will usually point to the massive plot holes like the hyperdrive or the retconning of Luke’s character arc. My criticism of the guy on the right is that when he says that the characters are “shallow” in the form of “not as deep as the world” he does not use evidence to prove his point whereas the guy on the left uses the text to prove that Rand has an arc where he talks about the reaction of the characters around him. I can also say that Egwene had a huge arc in this she was literally collared by a Domani. We also got really deep into Nyneaves mind through the accepted test we get to see her inner desire and the life that she is willing to give up in order to become an aes Sedai. Additionally Perrin also is gradually gaining revelations with his powers and there is an argument that happens between Mat and Rand because his friends are afraid that he might abandon the old self that he was. I have no problem with him giving it a 4.8/10, but I think he can do a lot better at referencing the text in order to prove his position and I just feel he has not done so.
@@heavysetmedia1904 I’m just waiting for him getting to shadow rising and trying to prove that it’s bad …. I wonder what you can say about that one “objectively” because in terms of plot theme character and world building that book nails everything …. I genuinely wonder how he is going to prove that The Shadow Rising is Bad
Ill keep this in mind to articulate better! Appreciate that feedback, this will really help - I think I definitely know what the problem is. When I LOVE something I have a bunch of reasons why I love it so much, and when I hate something (like the Last Jedi as you said, so many reasons why I dislike it) I have a lot more that I want to say and usually expand on that better. For our rating system 5 is average, so I dont have a love or hate for WOT so far - just general disappointment which I should definitely explain better going forward. Sometimes I get carried away with the podcast/talking side of things and don’t explain all that well. Basically, it seems like when I give something in the 4-5 range I can get sidetracked and not be as thoughtful in my position. So Ill have to work on that - Cheers and thanks for the help on that!
I'm so glad I found this channel. I tried to like WOT, I had heard great things but, I could not get into this series. It is so boring! It is 200 pages of story spread over 800+ Pages!
@@2ToRamble it’s just that, I’d like to know how people reacted to the plot, characters etc before reading, so I’d know what to look for in the book. Reading spoilers actually makes me want to read the book MORE
