Your browser is holding you back. Level up with Opera GX: operagx.gg/DarylTalksGames7 What is your favorite treacherous checkpoint? What did I miss? Let me know below!
I'm surprised there wasn't a mention of the one workbench in The Last of Us Part II, that genuinely made me jump as i had put down the controller to get a snack when I heard the commotion
Cave Story does a really funny thing where one of the very first doors you encounter in the game is actually an enemy you have to defeat before going through the door, so first-time players will distrust many doors afterwards, but this never happens again
I love Cave Story tbh, easily one of my favorite 'jokes', introducing something at the start of the game, and then never show it again. What's funny is that everytime I replay it, it always gets me for that exact reason lmao.
tbh Cave Story has a ton of game design bits that I feel like their only logical origin has to be "It'd be funny doe." Like the whole thing with fucking Booster in the Labyrinth is absurd.
@@Alt-fg3ml Skipping the first fight against Balrog feels like a similar joke, where if you just say "I don't want to fight" he just goes, "Oh, okay" and peaces out
It's truly a genre experience, it's not only relate to one game - look at souls games. I've never trusted chests in Elden Ring, just because of being afraid of mimic or trap (different than teleportation). It's curious that if there wasn't a single trap in this game I would be... dissapointed
Darkest Dungeon, in my humble opinion, is one of the greatest games ever made. Hearing the premise "what would actually happen to somebody, not just physically, but also psychologically, were they to explore video game dungeons?" was all I needed to be sold. My girlfriend lovingly refers to it as a "middle management simulator." Side note: She's also a writer, and a pretty great one at that, and became obsessed with the game's writing and Wayne June's impeccable narration. Two enthusiastic thumbs up from the both of us.
There is a game where you're not even guaranteed safety in the pause menu. In Voices Of The Void, normally you can open the pause menu to save the game, but there are some entities that can force you out of the pause menu and they can even still move towards you while the game is paused.
at one point minecraft was the same way. pausing didn't stop anything around you so any monster close enough to sense your presence would come kill you.
I actually appreciate that Dark Souls and Resident Evil don't troll you with fake safe zones because it would violate one of the core creative pillars of their game design and needlessly punish the player out of spite
I dunno, I would love just _one_ fake save point. Just one, in only one game, and one you can foresee like the music sounding off or blood splatters on the walls, stuff like that.
Original Resident Evil 3 has it in the clock tower. If you run away from Nemesis when going to save he jumps down through the roof glass at the save spot. Its super creepy because when you enter the room there is no music.
The original Resident Evil 3 has a moment where you return to the save point after spending a long time searching for an item. You enter the room and there is no save song. You approach the typewriter and nemesis crashes down from the roof. Starting a chase sequence when we least want it. Original Dead Space has a save spot that makes a necromorph spawn breathing down your neck when you finish upgrading your weapon.
I personally prefer diegetic safe points. It feels reasonable that if I am in a locked room I can relax and inventory manage, but it breaks my immersion that a random bonfire on the ground or a bench out in the open suddenly makes me immune from all harm.
While the bonfire in Dark Souls is actually more diegetic than what it initially appears to be, I can see your point. Just like anything in the Dark Souls trilogy, knowledge transforms the experience. Like how learning Artorias was left-handed and used a shield in his right, but when you fight him, he is mad from the abyss, his left arm is broken forcing him to use his right arm for his sword, and doesn't have a shield, so when you fight him he is a heavily nerfed version of him. Bonfires are linked to the First Flame, and thus allow for the undead to heal, which is why Estus Flasks are also what they are. In this way, a Bonfire is sort of like a Well, which only allows for those who haven't gone fully Hollow to heal from it, because those who are Hollow are linked to the Abyss which is the absence of the First Flame. This is also why you can only rest at it, when there are no enemies nearby it, it gets temporarily snuffed out when an enemy is close, at least from a lore perspective. Its just the Dark Souls Bonfires are not intuitively diegetic, but they are still diegetic, and I love that, in a way the bonfires themselves allow for the Player to fight back against the Abyss, which is fitting.
Undertale goes beyond breaking the sanctity of save points but, near the (true) end, it even breaks the sanctity of the save file. There are few things more terrifying than your safe file being deleted... and that game not only proves it, but, then, forces you to suffer those extra terrifying possibilities. I can not give more details without spoiling that moment... but I genuinely thought I was having a nightmare. Because it seemed so impossible, it was the only way I could rationalize what was happening before my eyes.
Notes about fear & hunger since I really care about this game being represented properly. There are two safe ways to save your game: • Books of Enlightenment, one-time consumables that you can find as you scavenge for resources. • There is exactly ONE bed in the entire game that will be a guaranteed safe save, no matter how many times you sleep in it, so long as the right conditions are met. I won’t describe further cause that’ll ruin the surprise, but it does exist.
It's interesting that a lot of examples of this happen in indie/smaller games, outside of maybe the bench jumpscare from tlou2. I wonder if we'll see more smaller teams and devs in the future get inspired to flip the script on more things we all take for granted. Also, that edit at 14:30 really caught me off guard lmao, excellent work Daryl 😭
I think it's because indie games can afford to take these kinds of risks with their design, while AAA games have to play things safe in order to have a wider appeal
I’m Elden Ring, I ran away from one of the big knights into the stormviel church where I knew it was a “no combat zone.” Imagine my surprise when the banished knight did not in fact care, and I had simply put myself at an even bigger disadvantage than before.
I was stumped by what Xenia could be in gaming until I heard the save music and thought "no, they would never". A fake save point is so cruel even the souls series doesn't cross that line.
They do kinda mess with your sense of safety in Demon's Souls. There's a character that can show up in your safe hub that will sneakily start killing the other NPCs that have settled there, one by one. Also from a certain point in the story you will return to the hub and find that its soft and calming music has been replaced by a far, far more ominous version of itself. I still remember the dread and confusion I felt when that happened.
Having vaguely known about them before playing, it was pretty surreal coming across that first one in Sen's. I could instantly tell something was off by the way it was sort of lopsided in the middle of the floor, but had completely forgotten trap chests were a possibility after my first 7 or 8 hours playing
It's crazy how psychosomatic the save music effect is. You played the Code Veronica (save room) music right after the ad break, and I could feel my body de-tense. That's wild. I remember once in Resident Evil 3: Nemesis (PSX) hearing the safe room music quickly fade away before the Nemesis music tuned up. I had never been so panicked in my gaming life as he barges right in and messes me up while I'm preparing to save my game. Edit: Special shout-out to Alien Isolation, who *will* 100% kill you during the saving process. That Xenomorph is a cheating jerk.
Every time I hear the word "evil checkpoints/save zones", I immediately think of The Room in Silent Hill 4. It's a safe zone that gradually becomes corrupted the more you progress in the game's story. Heck, in the later parts of the game there will even be objects that can kill you there. Imagine being able to die in supposed "safe" locations.
as soon as I realized you were talking about checkpoints and safe rooms (and breaking that rule) in the intro, I thought of Amnesia: The Bunker. then Deepnest
Dark Souls has three types of unusual checkpoints: First, the Fire Keeper Bonfires, which are temporary and go away if someone kills the Fire Keeper. There are three of these, one in Firelink Shrine, one in Anor Londo, and one in Quelaag's Domain. Second are the hidden Bonfires, the ones behind illusory walls or well off the critical path. There are four of these, in Darkroot Garden, The Catacombs, Lost Izalith, and Sen's Fortress. There's also one in the Depths that requires you to get a key from the giant rat, then backtrack to the room with the Bonfire. The third type of unusual checkpoint is the Bonfire that locks you in an area and forces you to fight your way out. There are two "hard" examples and a few more "soft" examples. The "hard" examples are the Duke's Archives prison tower Bonfire and the Bonfire in the Painted World of Ariamis. A "soft" example could be the Bonfire in Ash Lake or the first Bonfire in Tomb of the Giants, since if you access these areas before you can warp with the Lordvessel, you're stuck there until you backtrack through the long, arduous path you took to get there.
Another taboo of videogames that is not crossed very often is the ability to pause a game at any moment, like, you are in a very stressful fight or a count down scene/chase, you can pause, take a break, and go back a little more relaxed and focused. One example I can think atm is the game Lobotomy Corporation, the game is basically an SCP management simulation, this a little bit of a spoiler but at some point in the late game, things get pretty chaotic and you have to keep your people alive and fighting but enemies are everywhere and you could really use a rest, but when you try to pause the game wont let you, you have to finish the day one way or another but you just don't get to pause until the game is done with you
Speaking of scp, the actual scp game containment breach has a little easter egg, where if you pause the game while being chased by an scp it will auto unpause the game and tell you to "stop hiding", it also does the save thing by having one of the difficulties only let you save in a scp room when most of them could easily kill you if you interact with them.
An interesting example of something like this is Bravely Second: End Layer (slight spoilers for the end of the game) It's a turn-based RPG, but it has a really cool and interesting mechanic where you can essentially stop time and temporarily freely attack with your party through a special item. It creates a really interesting dynamic where you can sort of suddenly decide that it's your turn, but it comes at a pretty steep usage limit. However, through the entire game, it's always assumed that you're the only one with this power. And then suddenly, against the final boss of the game, it starts using that power against you. Suddenly, you're not even safe from taking damage when choosing your own actions, and you have to actually start making rushed on the fly decisions in a turn based game. These games do so much more when it comes to messing with elements that are traditionally "gamified" (this isn't even the most insane moment in this game or even *in this fight*), and it always amazes me how a AAA game was able to get away with this sort of thing (in the best way possible)
I thought for a second, "Thank goodness Zelda doesn't use mimics." Then I remembered the DS game Like-Likes with Rupees on angler fish-like limbs and the Switch games with Octoroks with chests on their heads. Oops.
I remember the first time this happened to me. Trials of Mana (except it was back in the emulation only days, so I guess Seiken Densetsu 3) had one dungeon (a ghost ship) that was full of cabins with beds, where you'd get the option to sleep, but trying it would just get you ganked by ghosts. Only one bedroom worked "properly" in the entire place. It was already one of the more oppressive dungeons and that definitely made the atmosphere even worse
Fatal Frame is the one forever burned into my head; you have to capture ghosts using a camera, which means you have to switch to first person view, aim and take the shot, but since you're in the save spot, it's damn well almost on top of you to begin with. I also loved the one in Silent Hill The Room. Like, there's a billion unsettling things about your apartment you're trapped in, but once you have one of the spirits float in and there's barely any room to move around, you just stay freaked out from then on.
I love the part where you go into detail about the line drawn between Saving and Resting in Lisa: The Painful, which made me think "What are the odds Daryl starts talking about Fear and Hunger?" and then 'Wham' I hear the intro music to Fear and Hunger. Great transition
Speaking about safe point being unsafe, how about Silent Hill 4's Room 302 being haunted? I mean, I know it has something to do about the MC being a shut-in hence the room getting haunted is sending him a message or a fear to tackle or something.
They aren't exactly "bonfire mimics" per se, but there is a Fromsoft game that turns a few bonfires into jump scares that make you think they were mimics.
It's the second time I hear someone say "why are we playing this" in a video involving fear and hunger in the span of like two weeks and it's pretty funny
Pokemon had a reverse of what this video talks about Pokemon had bins players could check, most of which is nothing but a waste of time, except for a handful of bins that do contain items, causing some players to check every bin they spot even when the majority of them are actually empty
Voices of the Void does this really neat thing with the pause menus where you can't pause and find solice during certain events. Not allowing you to get a breather. It's absolutely diabolical and fantastic
Another example of this to me is in-game menus, which typically guarantee that you’re safe while you browse them, especially if doing so pauses the game. One of the most unnerving experiences I’ve had playing a game was playing PT with a friend and pausing the game on a menu, then grabbing drinks, and returning just as a jumpscare occurred while still in the menu. No pause was safe after that!
the desire to watch the video and explore these topics about games i love is battling with the desire to not be spoiled for the ones i have yet to love
One big reason fake checkpoints aren't great is that is disrespects your IRL time--if I need to find a stopping point before going to bed or leaving for IRL commitments, I don't want to have to suddenly find myself choosing to either lose progress in a game or risk being late for something else. Like, people have lives outside of video games, man!
Another good example would be from Alien: Isolation. Where are no safe rooms really. And you need to wait couple seconds (with audible beeps) to actually save the game. Which adds tension because Alien could be right around the corner.
Minecraft has exploding beds when you try to sleep in them in the wrong dimension. But once you know this, it is easy not to make the same mistake again. In Minecraft I got blown up by a creeper once in bed. Many games disable the checkpoint when monsters are near. Like the souls games, Minecraft.
Despite it’s flaws, this is something which Fallout 4 does well on Survival Mode. The entire time you’re playing, you’re slowly stacking debuffs for being tired and hungry. Coupled with the fact the only place you can Save is in a Bed. So, after potentially hours of exploring, fighting…surviving, you finally find a bed and Rest/Save. But, the bed isn’t good enough you run the risk of an illness. If the only Point in the post apocalypse nuclear wasteland is a dirty mattress, you run the risk of an Infection. Now, with the stacking debuff from not sleeping long enough, you’re now constantly losing health until you can find a doctor. If you rest/save “too often” then you can get debuffs from that too. The more power naps you take, the more you need to take to stop the debuffs building. So, do you sleep and save and risk an infection? Or risk another half hour trek back to a Settlement for a clean bed?
While a bonfire mimic represents the most heinous breach of trust in gaming, my personal favorite dark souls fan concept is the ladder mimic. Sitting on a ledge, hanging its ladder tounge down, just waiting for a snack. Muah
I think another great example is Alien Isolation where checkpoints are out in the open and you can be ambushed while saving. Also I cant help think of the Murphree Brood ambushes when you try camping in Roanoak Ridge in RDR2
On the thought of unexpected save mechanics, one thing I always thought would be interesting would be NPCs becoming aware that you're save-scumming in order to win at a gambling mini-game, then punishing you for doing so.
Or maybe they could even flip the script and require the player to save scum. Like if you buy a ticket in the morning and the numbers are announced in the evening, you'd have to go back to a much earlier save and sacrifice progress in order to buy a ticket with those winning numbers.
I thought it was real cool in Metroid Dread where a certain character in a rest situation reveals themselves to not be who you thought they were. That sent a chill up my spine!
Fantastic video as always! What's up with that 3 at the end? Foreshadowing? I'm excited and scared haha. Part of me was sort of expecting to see Majora's Mask mentioned as one of the examples, since, at least in the original N64 version, you only had ONE save/checkpoint per cycle, and failing to save in time would undo all your progress up to that point, maybe it's not exactly what you were looking for through.
I'm always astounded by how many different games you play and have footage of for a video! Ive never heard of the term Xenia before and it was super interesting learning about it! Sometimes we can get used to even challenging games and feel some kind of complacency, we develop a "feel" where a danger or safety is. And when this feel betrays us, is when the game decides to just keep us on our toes. I love when it happens in the second half of the game, when my habits and expectations are already well established haha, because the effect is much more dramatic for me. Thanks for another banger Daryl
A scene from The last of us part 2 comes to mind, the area is clear, and you are using the workbench to upgrade your weapons and when you are inside what is basically a menu a guy attacks you from behind, totally took me off guard, never trusted the workbenches again
Even little things like Super Metroid's ghost ship, when the power is out, and finding an inactive save/ammo room felt like a small betrayal. Really effective in small doses, but I agree that I don't want it to be prevalently used in games.
Daryl, I just want to say a quick thanks for your videos. I found your channel about 2-3 months ago and you are now my favorite channel on YT. I have since, watched every single one of your videos and look foward to seeing a new one posted. Take next month off and I can't wait to see whats in store for us. Keep up the good work!
For me, I feel like Dark Souls 1 actually breaks Xenia if you decide to help Lautrec and ring the second bell... In a sense, you've helped him out of kind, not really expecting anything in return; same as the fire keeper that grants you access to the best bonfire in the entire game, a place better than home. And yet, when the time comes, that place looses all what made it safe... You can no longer rest there... And someone who you though could be trusted (and even helped you), suddenly it's gone, with the most precious thing you had untill that moment. For me, it was demoralising... Just after achieving a difficult goal, and willing to tell the other NPCs in the area we could call "home"... I felt betrayed... And the culprit had been telling us his intentions from the beginning... Only had I seen the writing on the wall more clearly.... Furthermore, the one friendly warrior that told us the objective of the undead, suddenly left; yet, should you go after him in the ruins below, he'll not receive you with open arms. In that moment of vulnerability, everything just seems to go the worst way possible; and the first time you encounter these interactions, nothing makes sense.
RE3R for all its flaws as a game actually does do that. Obviously in the original, Nemesis can never enter a save room, and in RE2R Mr. X cannot either. You are led to believe that neither of them will ever breach that area of safety, but in 3R in the save room at the mechanics shop, Nemesis can and will breach that area despite the typewriter. It's the only one (as far as I can remember) that he can do that to you in, but it creates paranoia moving forward that maybe he can do breach all of them.
A little bit off topic but God of War Ragnarok’s fight with Thor was a wonderful subversion. Gave me the same feeling as finding as an unsafe safe place. Dark souls 2 sotfs played on bonfires being unsafe but never actually hurt you which I always found underwhelming.
I'm not sure when or where in the game it happened, but there was a workbench in The Last of Us Part 2. I did not care much for the game, but that surprise encounter lived rent free in my mind every time I had to work on my guns in the game
One of the first games I’ve ever played (a GBA Harry Potter RPG) started with a mimic as its first fight. It wasn’t quite a treasure chest mimic, but it’s made me wary of chests and inanimate objects ever since. So I never quite had that relationship with treasure chests where they’re exclusively a good thing.
How... How did you not include the . . . -false moon snail shell in Another Crab's Treasure? It's the funniest one in the Soulslike genre specifically because it's playing on years of jokes about bonfire mimics.
Amazing channel. Brings me back to the good old days when content was created by passionate ppl. Now real gamers're replaced by quick-insta-fame-fake-gurus. People who, back in the day, called us 'losers' cuz we were gamers or loved Anime and comic books. Now they use our tech to make sick money and destroy self-esteem of others. I made a deep dive video about X360 as the last great generation, hope I'm wrong...
I would rather have dark souls bonfire mimics than a open world tower. In a dark souls style game it’s as easy as attacking the bonfire, just like you learn to attack chests in case of it being a mimic. The real cruel thing they could do is ingrain that mentality and then at a new real bonfire make it break when you hit it, permanently removing it.
Fear and Hunger to me is Berserk Conviction Arc + Diablo 2 (the original art design - and if this game was hard and brutal as the environment leads me to believe in that world). F&H gets more bizarre and crazy the more you play, but the more I play the less I feel the sense of isolation and "fear" (soory). It's all about OST, In Fallout 1, no matter how strong you get, there's this unfiltered feeling that the soundtrack have, that makes me still really uneasy, no matter where I am standing, there a chance this empty and radiated desert once was a city or a place where people in the 50s would meet to have a good time.
Glad to hear that. Congrats, Daryl, and please get some rest at a trustworthy time and place. You have enough Xenia in this world to count on a rest without the fear of being harmed.
