Problem with most of what is going on in the grappling education on youtube is practitioners who follow new training methods are not specialists in motor learning and most also did thousands of reps of drilling the "traditional" way previously which already contributes a lot to their current movement ability
how did these throws and takedowns come into existence? did they drill something that didn't exist yet, or was is a move that gradually seeped in and kept repeating itself in reasonably similar ways during sparring?
@@Luc-1991 people were already great at existing throws and breakfalls and then came up with something new. They did not figure it out out of the blue with a complete newbie
2:30 "Who determines that line" Kano, he determined where the line is You could certainly use ecological strategies to become very good at playing the sport of judo But judo as a martial art is more than just the sport, it has a curriculum and the moves have to look a certain way If you aren't able to go through the list and show everything by the book then you don't really know judo It's not some abstract game it's a set of movements
Firstly, you guys are reducing Judo to throws. This is just ignorant. There are very few BJJ techniques that don't have their roots in Judo and aren't Judo in essence. Secondly, the constraints led approach doesn't have a bearing on how techniques are defined, described and named but rather how they are learned and applied. Each technique has essential elements that make it possible to execute eg getting uki to take a step forward in the way that off balances him. Essentially, each throw needs one to compromise ukis base, alignment or posture. There are many ways to do this which are functions of grips, movement patterms and combinations. These elements can be gamified. Having said this, drilling and uchikomi is essential provided there is a objective assessor checking technical correctness and a feedback loop. Throws need to be automated. The only way to get these neural pathways established is repeated drilling. Saying uchikomi's is dated or traditional and useless is similar to saying boxers should stop hitting the heavy bag... Ridiculous!
@@kanucks9 hitting a heavy bag is not like sparring weather you stop an inch before the bag or not..That doesn't mean it's not a useful training tool...
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-XszzgsLLspY.htmlsi=ke2KZsowlCeByj7g I think you can see alot of what you are talking about on display in this video
@@kanucks9uchikomi allows you to get more reps of the throw vs nagekomi (which is where you finish the throw). Also the entry into the throw is one of the more difficult aspects of throwing so the more you can do it and get used to it the better you’ll get. I think you see a lot of BJJ question these things because they want the ability to throw without putting in the work but learning that takes time just like learning BJJ does. There’s no shortcuts for these things.
If you made day-1 beginners learn judo via ecological approach, it would be very injury-prone (people framing into the side of others' knees, etc.). Also having named techniques with variations makes it easier to communicate to others and document the actual movement pattern/sequence. It's definitely very useful for positional sparring games, like "start in side control, bottom wants to escape, top wants ..."
I’m not going to fully defend this eco approach. However, I coach wrestlers and we deal with these problems a lot and I don’t love the traditional IP way of morue learning. We make sure the constraints of the drills we do often focus on safety. We also notice most of our injuries in practice are not catastrophic. Overuse seems to be where we see our biggest injuries occur. Or athlete having a huge ego about not giving up something in practice.
Been doing jiujitsu for a long time now, but we started playing around with judo after class at my gym and it's so fun. I wanna start learning judo now!
If you think about it the judo founders already new all this. Randori (free style practice) both on the ground & standing is a basic in judo established from Judo's inception. Ecological approach seems like a re-branding of an old idea. No doubt someone will be trying to sell a few courses 😂😂
For the context : there are almost as many judokas in the US as in Japan. I think Japan does better than the US in Judo, their training is surely better.
When I'm doing stand up drilling I'm not just trying to exactly repeat the same movement just for the sake of doing that. I'm drilling throws and takedowns I can improve on and I am iterating, or trying to, with each progressive rep. I'm "drilling" in that I'm working on the same technique over and over but I'm not actually just doing the literal exact same thing over and over. I'm trying to hone that technique. I'll step in slightly different places, I'll pull and push at different angles until it feels right. It's not not a live practice. But IT IS something I as the student am taking into my own hands. My instructor actually literally can't do it for me. And as a side thing, I can see how someone would get bored if they were forced to work on a technique they already had down or were just trying to mindlessly perfectly repeat for the billionth time as a years long judoka.
Uchi-komi is an antiquated way of drilling that is poorly utilized. The problem with Uchi-komi is that it A: Teaches people to just exit and come out of a throw without throwing, and B: It teaches people to stop rotating/finishing the throw. If you're throwing someone, you got them moving, and you stop at some point, you now have to put in additional effort to move them again to get the throw. Using Uchi-komi for anyone that can avoid stopping in the middle of a throw (aka: people that know how to throw) can be useful.. As for white belts, Uchi-komi is more harm than good. There is a point to having everyone get reps of 12-15 complete throws both sides using one throw since you can utilize the controlled vacuum to snuff out imperfections in your technique. The idea is that we are building good habits and gaining more self awareness so we can monitor and improve each time we're doing the exercise. If you feel what you did wrong (not on the balls of your feet, didn't put the pulling arm in the right place, no kuzushi, stopping in the middle of throwing, changing tempo when you are throwing, etc) you can incorporate the fix and improve. But that's my two cents.
No thanks. Need a way to expose adults to judo without hitting the mat much. Hard on the body. There is a reason it is very hard to get adults into wrestling and judo. You mention a lot of internal focus of attention in how things feel. It is impossible to know how things feel to others and how they "should" feel.
@@KodiakCombat Wha.. if the white belts aren't practicing thier falls how are they able to do Judo? How are you able to get them to eventually do randori? You literally cannot do Judo without actively practicing your falls. People do less Judo when they are injured because they didn't know how to fall properly and don't constantly practice falls. You are straight up wrong, and you should get your white belts to practice and take falls early and often to make sure they stay safe. On the subject of what you called "internal focus" it is actually called "awareness". And yes, you can definitely and definitively feel when something is off or wrong if you do something in an objective sense/train to look for it long enough. I started Judo as an adult and got started practicing my falls in drills without a crash pad. Taking falls is nothing unless someone is trying to drill you into the mat. The reason falling is "hard on the body" is either because you have the wrong mats, or you aren't doing enough proper falls.
@@KodiakCombatI think it’s hard for adults to get access to both Judo and wrestling classes. Jiu Jitsu lets you test yourself at tournaments and you will rarely get hurt unless you don’t know when to tap. I would love to train Judo and wrestling but sadly most Jiu Jitsu schools in my area never start standing which is why I’ve lost interest somewhat but I still go to class 😢
Yeah. How many times have you accidentally thrown uke during uchikomi, and said "whoops, I pulled too hard" Lots of times for me. So if I'm ever successful there's instant negative feedback lol.
@@kanucks9 We rarely if ever practice Uchi-komi for the aforementioned reasons. If finishing the throw (aka: doing what the art is based on) is "negative feedback" then wth are you doing? Are you even practicing Judo at that point if throwing is a bad thing? Coaches have to keep reminding thier students to finish the throw during tournaments. Why? Because Uchi-komi only teaches you to stop once you fit into a throw. We have seen many losses because someone in a tournament went in for a throw, and they came back out only to get caught by a footsweep. Uchi-komi teaches and reinforces negative Judo.
It's clear that he doesn't like the names of the techniques, because they are in Japanese and he never bothered to study them... understand their meaning and understand that the fundamentals of the techniques are explained in their nomenclature. The biggest reason why Judo has never grown in the US is because of the laziness of people from the US in wanting to learn the culture and language of other countries. If BJJ had to be in Portuguese like Judo has to be in Japanese, BJJ would NEVER have been successful in the US. Comparing harai-goshi with ashi-guruma is so ignorant that he should have his black belt revoked.
I for one hate static drilling both in BJJ(purple belt) and Judo (blue belt). I like learning new techniques and I think once you learn basics you can learn in live settings and even just by visualizating things. I like drilling with live-like scenarios. So in Judo we do a lot of uchi komi but I view it as a warm up and then when we do setups for throws and nage komi is where I learn the most.
there are clubs out there that teach judo to beginners using eco approach. One of them is Praxis up in vancouver, they did an interview with scott sievewright recently. I also ended up visiting Hollywood Judo where their beginners class had me doing constrained throwing games day 1 without doing uchikomi at all. I was a little hesitant on the approach at first but experiencing it first hand has me convinced it could work.
I think uchikomi is great for beginners to learn and practice the footwork, hands, body positioning, and off balancing. Once you’ve got a handle on those I think it’s as worthwhile as shadow boxing. Nice to go through the motions and sorta get you in the judo mental space. Similar to what he said tho I think uchikomi can develop into a separate skill from fighting (obviously if you think about it). I switched to fighting lefty once I got my blackbelt and my left uchikomi definitely suck compared to my right side. But that doesn’t mean I can’t fight lefty
As typical for me, I kind of sit in between the 2 sides. For me, drilling isn't the problem. It is mindlessly drilling that is the problem. If you aren't focused on what you're doing and trying to make it better every time, you're hurting yourself. This isn't to say that there aren't methods other than drilling. Drilling is one method, but like all training methods, it is limited. You should be using a variety of methods, including the constraints-led approach as well, but don't follow it like an ideology. Rigidly following a paradigm, especially without understanding how to use it, is the problem.
Who is dat guy??? Tori needs the reps of the footwork, opening up the gi etc to get some kind of feeling and control of throws before he can worry about all the openings etc. And for uke he needs to experience getting thrown in a controled fashion to get used to breakfalling in the various ways before resistance or suprise can get safely implementend.
This guys does not know what he is talking about is he a world champion? NO! You have to master the technique then you can do it any way you want. Why are you giving this guy time?
He’s a national champ in the USA…which isn’t super high level when you compare to the international stage but a lot of his comments are for advanced players. When the vast majority of people attempting Judo without an instructor are staring at their feet…I feel his advice could be borderline dangerous
The part the dr is missing is the fact that when you learn a judo throw you do not learn the throw, you learn the principle of it. The only difference between ashi guruma and Harai gosh I is the principle: more leg action or more hip action. Like wise a seoi Nage can become ouchi gari so quickly I’d say that there is no difference in technique, just using different principles
I think a lot of these concepts work best for those who have a basic understanding of Judo, or even more advanced. The US did worse in Judo than countries whose total population is less than a single state, maybe we can see what they're doing and why they've been more successful.
Uchicomis can be beneficial depending on the person, i think it is important in order to understand the principles of the throw but eventually it can actually be a bad thing, i think it all depends on the individual. It's kinda like song writing, you need to learn a language and grammar until it becomes an obstacle.
Bad approach! No clear concept. This will lead to injuries, and bad execution of techniques. Also, training on crash pads for beginners is a terrible idea. Just do it right, and you’ll enjoy learning and improving your skill. If your throws don’t work, don’t blame uchi komis. You’re probably not doing them right. Harai Goshi and Ashi Guruma are distinctly different techniques done at different situations. Just saying!
I teach my students beginners and advanced takedowns in crazy(crazy meaning it looks like people would hurt each other) start positions as well as regular start positions and i was worried about the injury problem too but there are substantially less injuries than you'd expect and my guys can really tussle on their feet
Static drilling in my opinion is for adding new techniques and troubleshooting them, not sure if was valid but I read somewhere that if you hit a move 8 to 10 times in live rolling is like you did it 500 times in static drilling
Idk, I've been in BJJ for a couple years and pretty much stagnated for a long time until my gf (who also trains) and I got mats at home and started drilling over and over, increasing resistance over time. I started tapping people that always beat me and became better able to flow from one thing to another in a roll. My issue of just learning to do it live is that unless you get ample opportunity to roll with people at a lower level, that don't just muscle everything, you don't get opportunities to try something enough to get it because it just gets stopped. Yeah you get the occasional higher belt that lets you work it out but you can't always rely on that since they also want to train.
Actually the problem you’re mentioning at the end of your comment is exactly why I train with the ecological approach (constraints led approach) exclusively for jiu jitsu. No drilling at all, and you can train with people a lot better than you and still get your “reps” in. Got a whole bunch of videos on my channel on the topic. I’d highly recommend looking into it. Lmk if you have any questions here about the approach, it’s completely changed my game.
As the dirtiest judo player alive, a.k.a. real judo this guy in the interview is a man after my own heart. I hate the gross memorization of moves. Hence the reason why I never got my black belt But would repeatedly whoop black belts.
I hate uchikomi. They're fantasy. I think a beginner should first focus on kuzushi - grip/position and push/pull/circle in a flowy, dynamic way. Once you know how to manipulate your opponent and dominate the gripping, you can think about taking advantage of the openings they give you. Without that, you're never going to have consistent results.
@@Reflectionmaterial The "certain mechanics" you need are pushing, pulling, and circling to make an opportunity for you to pull off a technique WITHOUT having to use an excessive amount of power. The "certain mechanics" are subordinate to an understanding of when, where, and why. The "certain mechanics" and power are useless without the wisdom to know when to use them. Uchi komi do not help you develop a broad understanding of when, where, or why to use a certain technique. Uchikomi train you how to do a technique in a very specific case with a non-resisting partner.
@@OMARANT100 you first need to know the technique, be able to do it, then need setups and timing etc. Then you can do in randori. Uchi komi is to learn the technique. You can't just skip that part.
@@Reflectionmaterial You're right about not skipping right to randori. Absolutely. But uchikomi are not the answer for that - especially for beginners. If I can't do a thing well once, why would poorly doing the same thing 50 times without thinking make me any better at the thing? Where's the intentionality? Where's the reflection? My answer is to observe a technique, break it down into its constituent parts, gradually put the parts back together, then experiment with different scenarios (entries, grips, partner postures) at gradually increasing levels of resistance. "Did that feel good? Why did that one feel better than the previous? What did I do differently? What if I try this?" And, while you're practicing the push/pull/circle for kuzushi for the technique you're working on, you're working on understanding the kuzushi for ALL techniques in general, because you get actual responses from your partner instead of them imitating a sand bag. All that said, uchikomis can be great exercises.
@@OMARANT100 uchi komi from moving or setups is still uchi komi. For example to learn a two step uchi mata you first have to drill the footwork a bunch of times, then you can throw. If you let people throw straight away their mechanics will suck or they might even get hurt. Uchi komi is practicing and repeating elements of the throw without completing the throw.
4:38 I don’t there’s anything wrong with the names since the names are based on the principles of the throw. O guruma and Harai Goshi look similar but feel VERY different. And if you tried to teach someone Harai but directed them to O guruma they’d probably never get it because the throwing concepts are that much different. These things don’t matter to a competitor of course but to an educator like Kano it makes sense why Judo is classified in a very certain way.
Sounds like the “ecological approach” is a science paper published for sake of publication. Judo is far too nuanced to allow for meaningful improvement by competing only.
5:39 build the needed muscle in the gym with sound training. There is no need or benefit for sport specific exercises to build muscle. Muscle memory has also been undemined as mostly nonsense (an additional comment not related to what was said.)
Next time, please interview someone that actually knows and studied Judo as opposed to someone who got an idea of the movements who can apply them with some success in competition. A good person to talk to in your part of the world would be Shintaro Higashi.
They do this basketball, and it is the reason why we are drafting over seas mpre every year at the highest levels. We have less with fundamentals. Drills allow your brain to relax and digest the intricate details of the action. During live or scrimmaging you cannot digest them. And the USA should do what your saying cause God are judo can’t get any worse. Did you see all the medals US got in judo? Lastly, bjj players don’t drill enough that is why wrestlers can walk into any gym and go head to head with almost anyone, especially if they can’t leg attack. If they couldn’t leg attack half the black belt in the US would be worthless. One more thing, if judo players that drilled as much as wrestlers walk into a BJJ gym they will a lot of bjj players grumpy that day. People wonder why Russia and Japan are so good at grappling sports is because they drill like their next meal depended on it, which in a lot of cases does.
@@joshbeambjj it’s either my RU-vid app is crud or my reply was deleted. But what I was trying to say is that Judo is heavily dependent on uchikomi to learn, refine, and maintain throwing patterns. This approach has not been proven to win championships. Perhaps this “no drilling approach” holds significant validity in BJJ, but I wouldn’t know. I don’t do BJJ
