The Jax Problem - "Morally Grey" Characters 

I like Jax because he kinda reminds me of Bender from Futurama.

Fr, some people (us) just love douchebag characters. They can be so much fun!

I like jax as a character because I hate him. Which is a job well done when it comes to his purpose.

Im glad there no trace of bots in the comments section there was so many bots spamming every where for the last week that's relate to Digital Circuses

He’s like jack homer, except he’s more chaotic neutral(I think that’s the correct term) instead of chaotic evil

That's why I said the "jax problem' not the problem with Jax :)

​@Mangakamen honestly, the more valid criticism for how Jax was portrayed in episode 2 is that they overdid his asshole behavior in comparison to episode 1. Which, I kinda agree with since his behavior in episode 2 would've fit better in the 3rd or 4th episode especially given the gap in time between the 1st and 2nd episodes release...

He ain't the only one. It's just that people are used to having sympathetic jerk characters in the past few years now

​@@26th_PrimarchI wouldn't even say that. He was shown to be a jerk in the first episode but was more casual about it because one, he didn't care about the adventure and two, abstraction monster on the loose. In this episode he's shown right at the gate that he's interested in the adventure and becomes moreso when the group is given an actual adversary to fight with weapons. It was grounds to cause havoc and he was on board. I wouldn't say that they overdid or played up his dickish-ness, rather they just used what was already established with the added bonus to get people to stop forcing their headcanons as real

If there's gold, it's buried DEEP.

But that's less work than actively ranting about it and being toxic! Wait...

Or just stop caring. See: Way too many modern iterations of established franchises.

Expecting people to be reasonable about their feeling and thoughts on fictional characters in an animated show? That's hilarious, if it was that easy these things would never happen in the first place. The cruel reality is that people are too immature, too obsessed, too delusional or just too mentally dependant to not do these things. Many people online are thinking like children that only they are right and that everything has to happen for them in the way they want it. Others create scenarios to cope, sometimes adapting those characters as personalities to reflect themselves or to fill some kind of void. Trust me I've interacted with some on a personal level and it's not pretty, you can't reason with them, it's like a personal attack to them to even suggest anything that they don't agree with and first thing they do is scream at you at how much you care about their "opinions", opinions which are treated by them as facts wearing the skin of "it's just an opinion" as a shield to criticism. This delusion of what a character is supposed to be runs so deep that it becomes the truth to them, no matter how much of it is just headcanon in actuality. It's often times obsession with a cool new thing that just understands them so well that it becomes them so that any word against it is insulting to them personally. And that's why these people can't adjust, it requires maturity, self reflection, understanding of reality and most importantly time, which these guys are not willing to spend adjusting themselves when they believe they are right in the first place.

Or just accept that this canon is, in fact, in your head

Tell that to the Gwen is Trans gang.

Instead, the Jax fandom had interpreted that line to believe he is an npc instead of a bad person. I find that to be a massive reach.

@@sardonicus1739 Jax being an NPC makes a lot of sense since he seems to be pushing the characters into the adventures like Caine does.

​@@justice8718But she said that this theory will not happen.

​​@@LuisBlackbThat's not fun. Let the fans figure out things by themselves. Is fun if we are dead wrong.

You know what would be hilarious? Gooseworx did say Jax does eventually do something irredeemable, so what if his irredeemable act is finding out a way to escape from the circus and then not helping anyone else get out and just walking away?

Based also on one episode I may add

It doesn't help it takes so long for new episodes to come out that Headcanon will start taking over.

​@@arnowisp6244 That's not the fault of the creators

@@loserinasuit7880 Yeah. Yeah. Sadly this is inevitable.

and even then, how the hell do they come to that conclusion? all eh did in the first episode was: -grab zooble's arm without asking her to scratch his own back -stole keys to everyone's room -left ragatha and Pomni for dead against abstracted Kaufmo -pushed Kinger and Gangle into a hole and i'm probably forgetting some what in hell did anyone find to make him a "grey" character when he is just an asshole at BEST, and only out for his own skin at worse?

A FILM THEORY, THANKS FOR WATCHING

Yea I agree a good person can do bad things and vice versa

Plus since he's in a digital world he can do whatever he wants because there aren't any consequences

Literally Dr. Jack Bright

I think he’s morally grey in the sense that there are many shades of it, and he just happens to be a very dark one

The idea of Jax being "tumbler sexy man" I so wild to me. Like ok tumbler nuts, but dont go claim you better than reddit or twitter.

@@MouseGoat Well it's hard to be lower than Twitter Reddit at least can create something and people on Tumblr are capable of positivity

@@MouseGoat I know I’m arguably guilty of the same thing (claiming superiority over other media users) but it’s accurate.

People where getting mad at alastor gor the scene of him threating husk lif Is in character for alastor but people were surprise to de how cruel alastor could be

I still like both of them 🙂‍↕️

it doesnt help that zooble is easily forgotten in both episodes

Justice for Zooble

@@AsterWiher whole shtick is that she is apathetic and doesn’t want to entertain Cain’s antics. She doesn’t care but isn’t heartless like Jax who seeks to cause chaos.

@@Polomance862 but still its easy to forget about zooble

@@AsterWi poor zoob :(

but you just described the definition of a antagonist.

An antagonist by definition is "one who opposes the protagonist". You can have two hero characters, with one being the protagonist while the other is the antagonist. Hell, you can have a villain protagonist and a hero antagonist.

@@SaiyanGamer95 ok let me be more clear, he opposes the protagonist morally. So you could make the argument that Cain is the true antagonist who completely opposes the group, while Jax is someone who simply won't help the group because of his views on their situation and this could very well change into him becoming either a protagonist or a true antagonist.

So you could say jax is a anti-hero

​@@Scotobotsrolloutin no way he a hero of any kind, let alone a anti-hero, nor have any traits to suggest him going down that way.

The Gangle abuse by Jax is real😢

A tumbler-esc headcanon of a bad man with a heart of gold mixed in with the lack of media literacy when it comes to the separation of "canon" and "headcanon" seems to be the reason why. Seriously, that headcanon mixup where people feel entitled to having the character work the way they thought the character would work is annoying af, and it happens in a lot of fandoms.

It's because he made a sad frowny face for half a second when Ragatha mentioned the funerals. Going by what Gooseworx has said about him, he's much more likely to be sad for himself in that moment, like he knows no one will want to give him a funeral when he's gone, but still refuses to change.

i imagine it's just because people want to think he'll become a better person later on, it's like an "i can fix him" sort of thing i guess. it sounds like he's only going to get worse though, so i wonder how people are gonna react to that

​@@binkyboy448 I feel like it is also upset/annoyed that they're even doing it especially that he wasn't even invited.

Same

@@stinkymrsnow..............Yeah I LOVE the redeemed antagonist trope but we’ve already had a flood of those in recent years, (Bakugou Katsuki, Lilith Clawthorne, Sasha Waybright, Catra, Loki from Avengers) so Jax could be a breath of fresh air

He could go the route of Simon, where he just stops caring about anything and becomes a reckless antagonist. If we're talking Infinity Train comparisons, maybe Pomni or Ragatha could be similar to Grace.

@@suspiciousstar7547Yeah I personally like the idea of him being an interesting Villain protagonist (or Anti-Villain) that grows negativity in contrast to someone like Pomni who could eventually have positive growth, considering she doesn’t go through a psychotic breakdown by the season finale of course if she goes through worse things than seeing Gumigoo die.

@@toadlord8594 Yeah

GooseWorx said it's closer to the second option.

Personally Jax really doesn't give off villain vibes to me, he seems more like a secondary antagonist in the grand scheme of things. He seems more like a bully character than a villain. Just imagining it is weird, ultimately it's about leaving the simulation and him as the primary force to stop you from achieving that just doesn't fit.

I doubt he'd go Villain route but it's also possible he might not go Vegeta route. As of right now, I'm assuming more along the lines of 'token evil teammate'.

@@ProfessorNilo The main villain doesn’t have to be the one running the simulation

@@cosmicspacething3474 Then let me ask you something. What would be our villains climax in the story. As much as this is an episodic show every episode will presumably follow a timeline of important events. You can't possibly believe that our main antagonist, the villain will not have a great climax by the end of it... do you? So tell me, if our villain just does things because he wants to and our protagonist's goals are mostly seperate from what the villain cares about how is there gonna be a real clash that causes a climax?

Lmao

It's because Cartman gets what's coming to him and his plans usually backfire. The audience just wants to see if he actually succeeds or not. Cartman also has some redeeming qualities. Not a lot but enough to make him bearable.

Cartman isn't hot, that's the real difference. Well, at least I hope people don't find Cartman hot...... Edit: I mean, I find it weird how people find Jax hot, but it isn't as morally dubious a concept so it isn't as bad

@@Y.o.s.h It depends on the episode. Episodes like Human CentiPad & Ginger Cow are some of the worst episodes & really show how bad a character like him can be when the writers are too busy jerking it to their own art to remember to give the viewers a reason to laugh.

@@D_YellowMadness tbf in the human centipad he got struck by lighting after he insulted God at the end of the episode

good point. the looney tunes and classic cartoons are WAY worse than jax (remember that most protags would ruin random strangers lives for no reason every ep) but ppl dont seem to realize this.

​@@juuchan5795The amount of suicide jokes surprised me

Yep, he made me think of a modern day bugs Bunny. His words are more harsh to match our language changes in society. His actions honestly come off more as a light version of what Bugs does. Bugs has done some far worse things than Jax has. Bugs Bunny is a trickster to survive, it becomes part of his personality. Since it's his life he just "has fun with it" he can't "play nice" or it will cause him to be successfully "hunted" Jax is in a similar situation. He is doing what he can to survive in the conditions they are dealt. As reference to another series, Hazbin Hotel, look at Alastar. (Despite not knowing what his intentions are completely, but it can be assumed he wants to free himself) He himself said he puts on a smile all the time even if he doesn't wanna smile because it makes everyone not know what you are thinking, you are a mystery to all. Perhaps he does this to hide his intentions from Caine. He can't stop what Caine sees, but Caine can't see his thoughts. So maybe he figured out a system to find patterns and such to "find a way out" maybe all his actions are indeed intentionally jerky, but each action has a purpose in helping to find a way out. Since he can't do it himself without being seen as obvious on certain things, he now has started to "use" Pomni, since she has shown strong interest in escaping. But he still does essentially what Pomni is doing in his own way, but since he just observed or seems chaotic, he can get away with what he is actually doing. He may be trying to break enough of the physics and other things to find a pattern or "door" he hasn't accessed before. Aka, he is working like a "hacker" or similar in games. I mean, feels kinda like he intentionally glitched Pomni with the truck, wanted things to happen while he distracted the others with the big Fudge guy. I'm not saying he is a "good guy" he is a jerk, but he isn't an "antagonist" unless he intentionally traps everyone else and chooses to escape and prevent an exit ever again, I don't think he can ever be the villain. He can cause issues and problems in the story, but anyone could do that regardless of personality. But I feel he might be one of the biggest factors to finding a way out. He may have actually been doing so secretly with Kaufmo before things went down as they did. I mean, even more out there and ties into the NPC thing, what if Kaufmo secretly found out a way to create his own NPC in secrecy to infiltrate as a human, to keep Kaufmos work going because he had a feeling he himself wouldn't make it out. What if Jax wasn't an NPC Caine created and forgot about, but Jax was literally inserted to pretend to be a human from the start, has his own room and everything. But what if something in the void can help the humans create as well? Which is why Caine is so weird about it, also said he didn't build further out (expand more into the void) why he said they would get "spoiled" etc. What if throwing the abstracted into the void fixes them?

I think it's kinda cycled here: long ago, villains didn't have a sad backstory, or backstory at all. They were bad just because. Then it just got 'out of fashion', just like 'perfect' superheroes without flaws.

Then you have that weird gray area where characters have reasons/motivations that are somehow interpreted as “sad backstories” by fans. Like. Reasons that MAKE SENSE do not make someone a sympathetic villain.

Yeah, most bad people in real life were just born bad & other people just wouldn't admit it until they were adults because it's considered psychopathic to say that maybe a kid who tortures/kills animals & beats up other kids without provocation is a bad person. But then, they claim there were never any signs instead of just apologizing to the people who called it 20 years ago.

That's the thing; I DON'T enjoy a Character being a Terrible Person just because THEY'RE A Terrible Person; That's Narratively unsatisfying; and Just makes me want to see the Character either Get Killed Off the Show without Coming back AS SOON AS POSSIBLE; want to see them Abstract(If Jax is a Human); or get Deleted By Caine[IF Jax really IS an NPC]

@@New3DSLuigi364 try watching some South Park, Eric Cartman has been doing what Jax is about to attempt to do for decades now

Ep 1 where he said "ladies first!wait why would I say that!" Before pushing gangle

@@Lightdragon773 naw it has to be something profound and just flat-out, like he pulls a bugs bunny and looks at the camera and says like "women amirite?" or some sort. Just to see the toxicity flow through these delusional twitter nitwits

His demeanor kinda reminds me how Rex acted in the first season of Invincible and i dig it

Or maybe he is an anti Eric cart man character, maybe being a male feminist

Ngl i already headcanon him as being sexist, if you watch both episodes you can pick up on the fact that he's seemingly only this amount of chaotic hate and violent tendencies to the women of the circus, nit to say hes completely nice to men but he at least tolerates them more and is somewhat "nicer" to them too..

Jax is morally a sigma male

Wrong. He has no reason to act this way. He has no excuse. He's just a sociopath.

​@@nevaehhamilton3493 I am not saying this excuses his actions. Criminology is about exploring why people do bad things to better understand their behavior. If the only point you can say is is to call them a term for a person who is incapable of feeling empathy because of neurological or psychological issues, I am going to assume you have nothing to add to this topic. Because sociopaths don't need feel the need to mask sadness when it will usually gets people to relate to them.

​@@sharkjumpingwalrus6744 Well I'll just tell you that Jax will only get worse throughout the series and is irredeemable.

@@samuelisaacdelacruzaguiler2489 Then he will join the list of villain's I like. This is as spoiler free I can be. There's Dementio, a manipulative nihilist who wants to erase all worlds to create perfect new worlds in their place. There's Kefka, a man who committed several war crimes, with Genocides on several different scales. There's Sephiroth, the man who tried to kill a world to fuel his god complex. And Genova, the planet eating parasite that helps him. Then there's Bondrew, a man who will sacrifice anyone for his scientific ambitions, including children that he will lure into the lower layers of abyss. And these sacrifices are thematically the same as abstracting in the Digital Circus. Irredeemable monsters are fun because you can look forward to their downfall, while being entertained by the conflicts the they create along the way.

@@sharkjumpingwalrus6744 hehe, Gooseworx simp Jax because she likes this type of characters, irredeemable Jerk

Speaking facts!

It is well possible that he will have a breakdown, I mean it seems like nothing in this world really matters, he uses it to cause chaos, but if he thinks about how everything doesn't really matter he could break down.

Jax is Tyler1 in a lobby of stupid Yasuo mains

i myself was thinking "oh, he's the alastor of this show" but honestly alastor is just the sans of hazbin hotel anyway lol. people also have that same issue of thinking alastor is secretly a good person when he almost definitely isn't

@@jasperjazzie Alastor definitely isn't. I actually wrote my first fanfic about him back when only the pilot had dropped. It was written out of spite cuz all I could find of him were ship-fics, so I wrote one with ✨Murder! ✨ Lol I like Jax the way he is, and am looking forward to seeing whatever happens next! ^u^

Agree , in episode 2 there isn't any real danger at all , so he goes full GTA player mode , but in the Pilot there was Kaufmo abstraction , and as seen , Jax does know is something really dangerous , so like You said , being a prick was a lesser priority than surviving and hence he wasn't that bad in the Pilot

Yeah they both left Ragatha out of fear

Pomni messed up, but she can be a better person still. Look at how she tried to help Gummigoo. Jax hasn't shown one redeeming feature, and it's only going to get worse.....

There are so many weird takes in the fandom that I don't really agree with. It's either all this or all that and it's really really irritating. I can sympathize with you. I also agree with you on your assessment about Pomni, it's ridiculous people got upset at you for it.

@@mattevans4377 He's been in the Circus longer. He's gone on so many dumb adventures and seen so many people he probably cared about go crazy and abstract that now he doesn't care and just wants to have fun. He emotionally distances himself from the other humans and makes himself unlikable so that when they go, or he goes, no one gets hurt.

Just cause Pomni did something selfish doesn't mean she's a bad person or unjustified. She left Ragatha with the full intent of NEVER coming back, leaving her to possibly die. Of course she had a good reason why, but it's still by definition, selfish. Too many people live by the idea that "you're either an innocent angel who has done nothing remotely wrong, or you're an irredeemable monster" 🙄

@@AltKaxREAL that's good to know since these two were the two ones which got used the less

How exactly does he "steal" the screen time of other characters? The only real primary focus in the first two episodes is Pomni, everyone else is more a side character at the moment, Jax included, which makes sense since in a show like this there will almost certainly be episodes focusing on the other characters, honestly it's just way too early for such a claim to really be made, we only have two episodes and the primary focus of them wasn't even Jax himself, but another character entirely so we should just wait and see what happens next.

@@ryancarson6962 I think it feels that way because of merch. Besides Pomni, Jax is the only character who has his own t-shirt. And he was the only character to have a plush first besides Pomni, despite being a side character. So he’s already made to be more prioritized than the other side characters. So while he doesn’t exactly steal screen time, he does steal priority.

Not really getting that impression, as it feels like Pomni is getting that treatment more for the obvious reason that she’s the main lead be default. As for Jax, even if that’s the case it’s obvious it’s due to the creator having a bias for characters like him. She mentioned on some online posts that she created him mostly because she likes that character archetype.

​@@redballoon9007 tbf Jax's design is also pretty simple, so I can see why he was one of the first to get a olushie

I mean, the video certainly wasn't about phones.

Accept that people are stupid and that you can't fix stupidity. Fans are stupid.

Despite jax taking so much of the scene in the a-plot of that episode, they really shouldve made him do more of the crazy shit to the npcs, really establish he doesn't care instead of him being mean to gangle to the whole episode. The croc gummies wouldve been perfect for that, they seem harmless so Jax being your average gmod player and fucking doming them wouldve been great

@@Sleepy_Cabbagetbh him walking around and kicking stuff over as they are monologuing sounds like a perfect characterization moment

Didn't people do that because of FPS issues?

I mean the NPC’s turned out to be real people, but he might not see it that way.

I find casual fan worse as they just accept everything throw at them. Having that "Who cares, just buy product and get excited for next product."

@@bloodysimile4893 it’s two sides of the shitty coin

@@bloodysimile4893 at least the annoying casual fans have a life and touch grass , the annoying hardcore fans have too much free time to be annoying then casuals.

Especially to extreme some

​@@bloodysimile4893 nah you won't find these here, they're watching TV sitcoms right now

I think he’s already a great foil for Ragatha. She wants to help others, whether that be helping Pomni to acclimate, or treating the NPCs with respect even though she knows they’re fake. Even though her situation is terrible she tries her best to get Pomni to open up despite being pushed away by her multiple times. Jax does the complete opposite and is a terror to everyone, NPC or not. I’m hoping as the series goes on we can see more of their motivations.

Calling something morally grey just means they're evil and you think they're hot

More like morally gay haha

@@filipadsiekierka5350like u?

Unleashing a giant monster to go on a mass killing spree in order to satisfy your thirst for violence. What a morally grey thing to do!

Light was not morally grey at all, he has this black and white of thinking that the world is corrupted.

@@nishchayjain1121 Except his entire reason for his belief is the very real issue of evil people who are able to escape punishment simply because of an insufficient legal system. When Kira begins to act, and starts to win, it is regularly brought up that his methods are reducing crime across the world. The point of him being an insane sociopath with a god complex doesn't alter that his argument holds merit.

@@Zetact_ The fact that he dove headfirst into mass murdering god mode that it even surprised Ryuk is the most important part irrespective of why he did it. There's nothing Grey about Light at all as the other commenter says, it's made abundantly clear from day one that its all a self serving justification for him to murder especially considering his use of it to cover his secret.

@@Ziggaton Both in and out of universe there are people who agree with Kira's mentality. How can you say that ISN'T morally grey? It's vainglorious on Light's part for certain but that doesn't change the actions themselves. It's shown in the narrative itself that Kira's actions SIGNIFICANTLY improve the world while he's active, to the point it even starts a damn cult of regular civilians who wish for Kira to return. You can personally hold the belief that Light is evil but the fact is that the narrative is one that's meant to make you think - it's meant to raise questions. Light might be a narcissistic sociopath but you can't rightfully judge someone simply by their motivations, when their actions are what's important. If a wealthy person is able to fund a cure for cancer, but only does so out of a desire to make money and couldn't care less if people actually died from cancer, does that make this person's actions wrong, simply because his motive was ultimately just selfish greed? Of course not - while it is a sin to do good for the wrong reason but it doesn't negate the good that's being done. "But killing people isn't good." Killing criminals primarily, executioners have always been looked down upon for dirty work but as long as crime exists there will be arguments over the relative morality of the death penalty such that it is fundamentally not considered evil. To the eyes of the greater world, Kira is eventually considered an executioner. If it's strictly about legality, then why would it be wrong? Most of the world nations sooner or later decide to condone Kira. Mind you I am making no moral judgements on who is right or wrong on the matter, I'm simply playing devil's advocate and calling out why Kira is absolutely a morally grey figure. It is like the death penalty taken to an extreme - the death penalty is not inherently immoral. Ironically saying that "Death Note is black and white, because killing is wrong" is itself using the same manner of black and white thinking that you're trying to condemn Kira for. If Kira did not reduce crime rates, or the narrative showed that nobody actually had sympathies for Kira (from the very beginning we see even cops being of mixed feelings about Kira's actions) then you might have a point. But the narrative does not do this.

I don't think L is gray. He's good, straight up. The worst thing he did is using a person as a meat shield to find out if Kira is real and in Kanto, but that person was sentenced to death anyway so there was no saving him.

Fun fact I dunno if this is from the more earlier series but I think it is but isn't Freddy Krueger straight up a pedophile and he's a beloved horror icon.

"king of mutants"

I was thinking of that, too! :D Fellow Chikn Nuggit fan!

@@catbatrat1760 Lol great minds think alike

Doesn’t Jax having a canonical age and Goose stating he “deserved being in the circus the most” sorta debunk that though? Implying he had a life before being there and apparently still being a POS

@@itzrainy_outside4450 I've only watched the episodes, so I had no idea any of the characters had canonical ages. However, the second point... Who belongs in a simulation MORE than a simulated being?

1. Jax has been given a cannon age and back story. 2. That theory has little to nothing to go based on. Why would he terrorize other NPCs? He doesn't JUST terrorize the humans. 3. Please think your theories through.

ding dong your opinion is wrong.

Im getting super sick of this theory 🙄

Like Team Avolition?

@@LordTyph what's team Avolition from? It sounds familiar

So Lyle Rath?

Your description made me recall the time Vanossgaming blew up most of his group's server through an elaborate network of Redstone, TNT, and minecarts.

@@jordanhunter3375 you're the third person who's given me an example I have no context for, let alone know anything about. I think that's awesome. Sounds like the same idea

"because it took so long" lol wow people really have the attention span of goldfish on drugs now days

​@@MouseGoatThey hyperfixated on a show with only one eposide for seven months stright. If anything their attention span being too long is the real problem.

THIS. Because people don't get new content for a long time, they often make the content themselves. Which is fine, but just keep in mind that your headcanon will most likely be untrue. A lot of people thought he had a justifyable reason for his bullying (which was not shown in the show at all do no idea where hey got that from) and now they're upset Because that's not what's happening :/

Yup, I agree. After rewatching the first episode, it's perfectly obvious that he was a complete dick. Most likely, the only reason people would have gotten the wrong impression of him would be because, while he was an asshole, he was so casual about it. His light attitude probably confused some people into thinking "he's actually not that bad" without actually looking at him properly.

It must've hilarious it must've been for you and the rest of the writers when the second episode released and *those* Jax fans were freaking out. I've always loved his GTA player attitude, and can't wait to see more insanity from him.

@redbirdpfpn Oh, I’m not a writer FOR Digital Circus (wish I was), but I’m a writer in general. But you’d better believe that it was hilarious to suddenly see him go from a Tumblr sexyman to having a truckload of teenagers be upset that he’s an *actual* asshole. Probably the kind of one that was stuck working 9 to 5 at a McDonald’s and living in a shitty apartment. Or the opposite and being a textbook psychopath CEO that’s finally able to let loose.

Pun intended?

Who is kinning Jax omg 😭

@@HaleyZLMFT Edgy teens who are chronically online.

Dang

Is that when you identify as an imaginary character or something? (Since I think an “Otherkin” person is someone who is trying to identify as some kind of living creature that is not human, such as an animal or an angel/demon?) I think some people really need to touch grass.

I don’t think “Morally gray” applies because he’s not really in the moral slide dial. He’s a bully. Often, in kids media especially, you’ll have your protagonists who are basically good people with their own flaws, and they are the good guys. Usually one or two children and a mentor figure. There will be a pure evil villain like Voldemort or palpitene, then you get a more tragic/ morally gray villain like Snape or Darth Vader. Then you have the bully- Like Draco or Dudley. They’re not a villain because they’re not big enough of a threat, and besides, they’re just a kid most of the time. But they’re not complicated enough to be morally gray and we don’t ever see them do anything other than bully, (Often focusing on a hapless “younger kid” character who the main hero can stick up for,) They are usually on the good guys team in a big fight, (Or simply not there) but they won’t do anything particularly heroic or selfless. They tend to cause smaller scale conflict among the characters and all in all the moral scale of the story just doesn’t really apply to them. They usually get a “Stern talking to” but they don’t typically learn their lesson, and I think that’s where Jax is- He’s part of the main crew but he’s not a good person. He does some pretty horrible stuff, but because of the tone armor around the fact that he’s a comedy character means we probably aren’t going to see the consequences of those actions and thus he won’t really be written as a villain. I think people are definitely looking for a villain and Jax is the closest thing. I mean, Cain seems nice. He doesn’t really understand the consequences of his actions but he seems very innocent and any harm he causes seems unintentional. Ragatha is so sweet and has the vibe about her like she just wants someone to take care of. Maybe in her last life she was a mom, or she really wanted to be one. Pomni is the main character, and she seems to have good morals, even if she’s a bit to frightened to back them up. Everyone else is basically the “Younger kid” a passive character to be bullied by the mean character and stood for by Ragatha. (Pomni is too busy freaking out and I don’t think Cain even notices or understands bullying,) Then there is gumigoo, who is spite of dying might come back since Cain re uses npc’s and Ragatha’s comment looks like foreshadowing. I have to agree he’s pretty great. More human than some of the actually human characters. If he got to live at the digital circus he’d probably stand up to bullying. Sorry for the long rant on this silly cartoon about people being essicied into a world where everyone looks like a toy and the ringmaster looks like teeth with eyes.😅 It just seems like people get confused about Jax even though he’s a pretty classic bully character. He’s just a little more clever and witty than the usual, probably because he’s an adult.

Disney's fault

@@tell-me-a-story- the problem is more that the fandom expected Jax to be morally gray when there wasn't any hint at it at all

@@angel_of_rust He never acts conflicted, he’s just mean, lol

@@tell-me-a-story- yeah he isn't conflicted but the fandom decided to think so otherwise

You cooked

Media literacy is dead, and moral guardians killed it.

the people who believe everyone is nice and friendly would have a shock going outside. that grandma on the bus will whack you for taking her seat

this is so real, or when "evil characters" are portrayed as, well, silly-- a lot of fans and even writers are too scared to give their antagonists actual unlikeable flaws since they are too busy dreaming about creating a big fanbase for the characters. yes, this is targeted at hazbin hotel, and yes, i'm still pissed about poorly they wrote alastor.

@@redbirdpfpn Alastor is still nowhere near as poorly written as Adam. You can tell that Viv’s entire thought process when creating him was: “screw subtlety and depth, I’m going to dump every manosphere stereotype I can think of into this one character.”

Well the difference between the cartman kind of character and the hateable kind of character is charisma and personality While ep 1 jax was more silly and also did goofy things, also showed a more chill and easy goin personality, its understandable you get that idea Ep 2 jax is straight evil and not caring for free and without thay charisma, which makes him just dislikeable Lets put this way, ep 1 jax saw the gloinks glitcjing and looked everywhere nervously of kaufmo appearing Ep 2 jax would probably find it funny and actively lure kaufmo into the gloinks

I think he’s just the average bully character. Mean and annoying more than anything else.

Jax allowed the Fudge to go on a killing spree for his own amusement. How is that not evil? Is it because he did it with NPCs and not players? Because the NPCs still seem sentient.

Indeed he is a funny rabbit :) with a gun!

"Mother says he's a bad influence."

Gooseworx confirm Jax age is 22 so yeh he just young adult with teenage phase

Any other warriors fans? (Or at least someone who also adored this kitty war cult as a child?) You know how some kids back in the day could relate to having an unrequited crush, so they decided to agree with everything Ash-fur did? The same people would hate on SquirrelFlight (which make so sense because if you like Ashfur so much and distane Swuirrel why do you want them to be together? ) Anyway they were basically mad that she didn’t pretend to be In loved with Ashfur just because he had feeling for her? Poor kitten had a bunch of older men creeping on her. She probably should have said no to all of them but she still had to say no to most of them. 😝 Someone is always going to be mad. I think the whole reason they made Ashfur the main villain in the newer books was because of this. They wanted to confirm that nothing Ashfur did was okay by showing that he’s an out-right villain. Funny how he went from the droopy corner of a love triangle to vengeful maniac to dead vengeful maniac much later. And he was basically just.. Fernpaw’s brother in the first arch. 😝 Personally I think shipping wars about cats is peak cringe. I loved the second seres but I remember my favorite part being when SquirrelPaw and Leafpaw were still apprentices. Regardless, I do like the idea of BrambleClaw being with Squirrelflight, but I would change some things up to make it less weird. First have him be younger. This wouldn’t be too hard, I’d just have Sky-clan’s destiny take place immediately after the last first arch book, and have Sandstorm already pregnant when they leave, and the kittens can come earlier in the story. They’d be babies, so they wouldn’t change much. Then Brambleclaw would be a young apprentice when she was born and not a grown warrior, and they’d have about the same age gap as long-tail and fire-paw. (Maybe they were even apprentices at the same time for a month or two,) (I would also make it so Crowpaw’s crush of FeatherTail was one-sided so she doesn’t seem weird, but she still cares about him as a freind, and I would just delete Storm-fur’s crush on Swuirrelpaw, it wouldn’t change much anyway,) And I’d also make him nicer to her. That shouldn’t be hard, just keep him as he is in the first arch, (Bold and curious, a little grumpier than fire-paw was but much less grumpy than Cloud-paw. Natural born leader with a concerning interest in his roots, and above all, a powerful passion for proving himself to his clan, to an insecure and unhealthy level.) And turn the arguments where he is trying to control squirrelflight into friendly banter instead. I’d keep the ashfur thing because he’s important to the plot, and just like in the real books Squirrelflight likes him because he’s gentle and accommodating, but decides he’d not right for her, and he gets all butt-hurt about it. The fact that he’s almost firestar’s age won’t be a problem because for one she doesn’t choose him anyway, and for two he doesn’t seem interested until she’s had her warrior name for a month or two. And of course the plot goes on as regular. White wing would be younger that the sisters with this new kitten arrangement, but that makes sense to me. She always felt like a younger apprentice. Even if BrambleClaw is no longer mean, he can still be upset about the three thing because he was being lied to for like, a yeah. Which is a lot for a cat. Not knocking the original, just how I’d do it. Oh dang it sorry for the wall. I was only supposed to say people do the projection thing with Ashfur! Most of you probably don’t even know what I’m talking about.

@@tell-me-a-story- wat?

I think more than a gray character, he’s a bully character. Bullies tend to exist outside of the “Good guy-morally gray anti hero/villain-pure evil villain” Slide-dial. They’re not good guys, but they’re too petty and small-scale to be villains, but they’re not morally gray because they don’t have any kind of conflicting actions. They don’t do good sometimes and evil sometimes, or the right thing for the wrong reason, or the wrong thing for the right reason, They just do things that are..mean. Selfish annoying things that aren’t straight up evil but uncalled for and irritating. They sort of exist outside the alignment chart. Take Dudley from Harry Potter. You could take Draco as well, but some of you millennials still haven’t gotten over your childhood crush on the little boy who played him in the movie, (Frighteningly enough,) And besides that he does get a little more involved in the main plot, which puts him closer to being on the alignment chart. But how about Dudley? He’s not a good guy. He never saves the day or even does anything nice. He’s selfish and nasty pretty much all the time. He’s not a villain. It’s not like he’s a pure evil Voldemort. First off he’s just a kid, when all is said and don, but second, he doesn’t cause any of the main conflict. He’s not trying to take over the world. All he really wants is to eat and lay around, honestly. Nothing he does can be called evil. Besides he was kind of raised be be like he He’d annoying more than evil. He’s not morally gray, though. He doesn’t really do anything sympathetic in the story, and he doesn’t do the right thing for the wrong reason or the wrong thing for the right reason. He just does annoying things for annoying reasons. The morality of the plot that puts Harry and Co. on one side of the spectrum, Voldemort on the other, and Snape somewhere in the middle, (Where exactly he sits is different depending on wether you’re looking at the books or the movies,) Just goes right past Dudley. He’s not exactly amoral, because he’s not an animal. He knows better than to do what he does. But he fits into a little box of character types that includes Bullies, comic relief, and helpless bystanders. They have good or bad intentions, but they don’t really go into the “Good” “Evil” or “Morally gray” boxes, because they have a certain tone around them that makes their actions not very important. Comic relief villain sidekicks can be given redemption arcs very easily, for example, because even though they’d be accomplices to murder and genocide in real life, they’re function in the story is to make you laugh, so you don’t even think there’s that much to redeem. In fact, they don’t even feel bad about what they did a lot of the time. They just join the good guys and start being funny but on their side, and the good guys don’t really seem that upset with them, even if they helped kill their wise mentor figure. Likewise, bullies don’t really count as good or evil or gray. (Unless the movie takes place in high school or some other modern setting where the bully is the main antagonist, then they’ll typically be a “Pure evil” character, who also behaves very little like an actual adolescent bully.) The Bully is usually just there. They provide smaller scale conflict for the main character, and make them relatable because everyone has been picked on at one point. They tend to be the character who speaks their mind and says things that wouldn’t be consistent with the main heroes. Sometimes the bully is a reluctant member of the main group who just does something selfish or petty occasionally. Jax doesn’t exactly fit neatly into the “Bully” mold, but I do think he more than being “Evil” “Good” or “Gray” He’s in his own box that reads , “Irritating little turd.” I don’t think digital circus as any evil characters. You have the main character Pomni, she’s obviously a good guy. You have Ragatha who’s so darn sweet and needs A hug, you have Gummygoo, who is loyal to his group even after he finds out it’s not real and was just a fun character, you have Cain who is mostly just Clueless and wacky, then you have Kinger and the gadget character and the tragedy mask character who are kind of just bystanders. The conflict comes from the fact that she’s trapped and that’s scary. Basically in a cheerful kid friendly back rooms. But honestly that ball creature is the real villain 😝

My main gripe is you can kinda see jax's asshole behaviour kinda takes a turn in the second episode, I believe this is could've been goose works attempt at a hard turn. Like she was testing the waters at first and decided to do a quick turn into jax being a full on dickhead

​​@@Sleepy_CabbageI agree it's a hard change in tone, sort of. But his actions are consistent with his previous characterization. Yes he treats everyone like crap and is willing to genocide NPCs for his own enjoyment, but that's not too far off from his actions or implied morality from the first episode. As a person he's bad in episode 1 and worse in episode 2. Not to mention again that these episodes were all written before the pilot was released meaning if a shift feels drastic it's more likely that you just didn't pick up on the hints that were left for it, changes like testing audience reception are rarely a concern for most writers, because it slows down progress. I didn't think it was out of character or drastically different on a first watch, maybe that's just a me thing though .

@@ProfessorNilo The closest comparison to Jax I think I could make is Bugs Bunny, usually the person deserves the type of tomfoolery from bugs cause their bothering him or being malicious themselves, so bugs bunny's crude tricks come off as light hearted and amusing cause they had it coming to him, I think a lot of people where hoping for that same kinda flow with jax, but ep2 really leaves a sour taste for them cause gangle who jax is interacting with the most never really deserves it, and sorta gets to a point where's it mildly uncomfortable. The only reason this is a turning point is its jaxs using his words rather then physical comedy, the digital world seems to hardly have any consequences for slap stick again like looney tunes) and jax takes advantage of this constantly cause it never really hurts anyone, thus its not taken seriously by him or the audience, so the moment Jax really started to dig into gangle or be verbal in his aggression is when things went from funny to slightly cruel, imagine if bugs was saying profanitys to get at at porky pig rather then a silly gag

@@Sleepy_Cabbage I don't really see your point. Are you saying that pain doesn't really exist so physically abusing others is better? Because that makes little sense, because while the abuse in the first episode may not hurt physically, getting physically abused also leaves mental scars. So Jax using Zooble's body parts for himself, throwing things at Kinger or pushing Gangle for no reason, still leaves a mental impression. It's not better and besides, it's not like Jax didn't mentally abuse others, like with Kinger and Ragatha putting one down and playing with the fears of the other. It's all unnecessary abuse physically or mentally doesn't matter, because both can hurt them in the long run. You can't possibly think that Jax's actions in episode 1 were justified at the time, it's not like anyone was antagonizing him first, so even if others made the Bugs Bunny connection, he was still an asshole unprovoked.

@@ProfessorNilo it's cause noting really establishes that physical trauma seem to even matter, it's almost in the same context of a looney tunes bit, pomni literally gets her height stretched out of her, kinger is bowled down a slide, zooble doesn't even seem like they can be harmed by normal means and I don't even think ragatha can register pain at all. Physical trauma simply isn't registered the same it would in reality, and the only time we see genuine pain is when their harmed by someone who is abstracted, so it makes sense why jax (and ragatha primarily with herself) have zero qualms slapsticking there way out of problems or just to pass the time. If the characters don't feel genuine pain, why would the audience care about the physical comedy being dangerous! emotional damage however is another story, it's well established the characters are still of course feeling and still take stuff like insults personally or react to things like anyone else would just with a bit of cartoony flair, so is it a wonder when Jax decides to use verbal aggression over slapstick which has been shown to not do anything, it leaves a bit of a sour impression for some people

jax really trims the line of ambiguity at times, him shoving kinger and gangle into the pit in episode one is a good example, if goosework wanted to make it more clear he was a flat out ass then they shouldn't have made him look back to see if the abstracted monster was there, since it combined with the rest of the shot it could be seen as him trying to lead those two to safety, where if they wanted jax to be seen more as an actual ass he shouldn't have reacted at all to the potential of danger being near and immediately doinked the two showing he could care less

I agree with with your statement, killing NPC's is not exactly evil. Can it be considered evil by the standards of very human like AI, maybe but it's still not exactly like real people die or anything. That being said he's not considered evil for only that. Through the entire episode he also is just the worst when it comes to how he treats the other human characters. Though that's not new to this episode and was already established in the pilot. So regardless of what others say I think he's been consistent overall, he just got a new character trait which is to have fun at the expense of non player characters.

It's more like pulling a genocide in Undertale than doing something morally wrong, but with extra steps. I imagine he does stuff like this because he see's the stories as pointless since the stories keep getting replaced and erased on Caines whims as we see with Gummigoo, so he tries to derail them as much as he can just to spit Caine.

@@sharkjumpingwalrus6744 on top of that. Even the cast is mostly indestructible. In a world like that it's easy to get desensitized to violence. For example his lack of reaction to the truck falling. Basically he IS an ass. But he's an ass in a world with almost no consequences and he knows his actions can't mortally wound people.

@@1slayer959 It would fit with the topic of the funeral getting him to lower his guard for a moment before he walked off in a sour mood. Someone's actually gone and it, at minimum, bothers him.

@@LordTyph yeah exactly. Jax has essentially embraced the escapism of the circus to, well escape the gravity of their situation. This has the side effect of making him cruel. But there are brief moments to show that he on some level does value the human characters over others. Like when he shoved gengal and kinger in the gloink hole. On the surface, it seems like he's just being a dick. But when taken in context. The abstracted kofmo was on that floor. Jax got them out of danger, without them knowing of the danger at that. And then there's the scene of him before the funeral like ya said. Jax can't escape true death. Try as he might. So when the topic of someone he knows and at the very least recognized as a real person, is truly gone. It on some level upsets him.

Idk, me personally I don't like him. I don't know what it is, but I just don't like him. If others like him, cool. He's just not my type.

I mean, at some point there will be no more "original ideas" left because all possible combinations have been made. Also "geniusses think alike". Just because there are similarities doesnt mean you copied someone

Sounds interesting! What will the book be called?

I don’t think anybody will say that. Especially since it’s in a completely different medium. Characters that are just assholes to be assholes have existed for a long time. You shouldn’t change or stress over your work because you think people will get mad over it. Even then your character sounds fairly different from what I’ve seen of Jax.

@@levitheghost I've been tossing around a few titles. Currently I'm at "The Impact Borne." It's a double reference to how the characters have to bear the heavy impact of the world upon them, but the world must also bear the heavy impact of the characters upon the world. Using "borne" for bearing is also a reference to being born because the main character was reincarnated and struggles with trauma and guilt from a previous life that no one can see or understand because for all they know, he never went through anything at all and is just acting out and therefore garners no sympathy from others aside from a couple people later on when people begin to connect the pieces that he was a very controversial historical figure of whom people have various opinions on ranging from sheer admiration to sheer disdain. The main character is incredibly anxiety-prone and the "impact" starts getting to him as his initially calm and kind character continuously degenerates into insanity as more memories flood his mind while simultaneously the world around him begins to f... itself and the main character. "Borne Impact" sounds cool as well, but I don't want it to be confused for a Jason Bourne story. The deuteragonist is the isekaid troll character who is somewhat sadistic and apathetic even though he genuinely cares but doesn't like to admit it. He tags along with the main character and constantly criticizes him for being "too merciful" and "mentally soft." He eventually gains more respect for the main character as the story progresses and they become best friends. The deuteragonist is the kind of guy who uses a power drill to drill out a pedo_____'s elbows, kneecaps, hands, and feet with a power drill and throw him into a swimming pool and watch him struggle to try to get out of only 6 feet of water just because he thinks the suffering of terrible people is ironically hilarious, yet deserved. Meanwhile, the main character is horrified at the repeated sadistic actions of his friend against their enemies but doesn't object because of his meekness. The deuteragonist is cocky because no one can harm him as he has absolute control over any and all technology, rendering weapons useless against him. Guns literally disassemble themselves in the hands of his enemies, bullets stop mid air around him, and he can still use all the technology he wants with extreme precision. He taunts all of the gun-wielding criminals by thanking them for providing him with more weapons. The deuteragonist is a relatively static character who is the only one who seems to be unaffected by the chaos the world inflicts upon them and the chaos they inflict upon the world. At one point, he literally tells the main character to "Get some b....es on your d... and stop moping. These bad guys aren't gonna kill themselves, although they'll probably want to after we've started playing with them for a bit." The only thing that poses any threat to him are direct magic attacks and humorously, nature, which always seems to f... with him only to the point of aggravating inconvenience, usually in the form of random plants and animals. Also, the deuteragonist is the only one in the cast who swears like a sailor. "I just want to eat my f...ing lunch without a d... magic vine on my a.. every two d... seconds." It's funny because the cast has to go into the forest frequently, and he's always so pissed because nature is always messing with him. "F... these trees, f... these vines, and f... this forest because I'm about to burn this f...ing place to the ground. I don't give a f... how sacred it is. It's always in my d... way!"

Sigh I try to give him a chance and Ayy makes good points a lot of the time But wow, his fanboyism of Viv's shows is truly infuriating to watch. At least he can acknowledge flaws here and again. Like how Ayy really didn't like Adam from HH.

No problem