The actress who plays Ellie's mom, Anna, in this episode is Ashley Johnson who was also the voice actress for Ellie in the video game. She was the perfect choice for this role. Great reaction, btw. 🙂
@@JessTheMD She gave birth to Ellie twice, first bringing her to life in the game and then actually giving birth to her in the show. FYI the actor that played Joel in the game appeared in the last episode and the guy that played Tommy in the game appeared alongside Kathleen previously. The actress that plays Marlene actually played her in the game also. One of the nurses at the end also portrayed a nurse in the game and has an important unrelated part in the second game.
@@JessTheMDthis may have already been noted in the earlier episode but Tess's voice actress actually passed away in the same week of the episode of Tess passing away. Sorry to bring sad here just didn't know if you knew that about the voice actors. Troy Baker (Joel) was also a part of David's crew.
For people who've played the game, they may have found a document in the hospital detailing several immune patients who failed to provide "chemical messengers" from surgery, so the lie Joel says about other immunes doesn't come completely out of nowhere. I'm not sure if the creators of the show recognize that canonically but it's still a detail that further muddies the waters about this issue.
@@JessTheMD There were no other immune patients, just experiments on other normally infected people. Marlene responding to Joel's demand to "find someone else" with "there is no one else" confirms this. Ellie is the only immune person who has ever been discovered, and Joel makes up the same lie whether or not you find that document. Here is a transcript of the recording from the head surgeon that players can find in the Firefly hospital, so maybe you can interpret some of that medical jargon better than us regular folks if you'd like: "April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients. We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain."
Dozens and dozens of reacts... many more emotional... many just plain off... but this reaction... from an informed point of view... was exceptional. Great Job Doctor! I really appreciate your wonderful thoughts, guidance and the 'heart', you shared throughout this truly extraordinary series. Thank you.
This series was wonderful! Thanks so much for putting the time in to make it. I love getting a trained medical POV on a program that's centered around a pandemic. If you ever intend to do another series, I'd strongly recommend Craig Mazin's other HBO series, 'Chernobyl'. It's similarly adjacent to a lot of medical subjects, as well as showing people under EXTREME stress, etc. On the subject of the finale, one of my favorite touches that I think is really subtle is that Joel has, up to this point, been INCREDIBLY bad at explaining things. He's taciturn and almost bashful when he's trying to explain how something works, and virtually NEVER does it unprompted. When he's in the car with Ellie, he's bright eyed, confident, and goes into a detailed explanation of who, what, where, and how as soon as she's conscious enough to understand the words that he's saying. It's completely out of character and she clearly knows immediately that he's lying to her. I love how morally complex this episode was. Fantastic end to a fantastic season.
Thank you so much! I never watched Chernobyl, so I'll look into it! Not sure if I'll do a full series or maybe watch it and create one compilation video. Will take some work and planning, so I'll check it out! Thank you for the rec! What a great point about Joel's change in character!! Ellie at LEAST knows that something is up, and knows that there's been a change in dynamic. She probably does think he's "covering something up". So morally complex and we could get into lonnnnggggg conversations about all the morally gray areas of it. Love the discussions here!! ❤️
people are saying that they just should've asked Ellie well it wouldn't work simply coz Marlene wouldn't take "NO" as answer and Joel wouldn't take "YES".
Agreed! My hot take is that Ellie needs to have the chance to grow up, and make her own decision as an adult 😊 She's an obviously intelligent person - I think she could potentially contribute more than just her physical body. If she wants to, she could help contribute to the science of it all too 😊 Just an idea!
Here's my feeling on whether Ellie was told or not. Marlene said she was okay and they didn't scare her. That's code for "we didn't tell her we were going to euthanize her to cut out her brain." Remember in episode 6, Ellie and Joel by the fire, Ellie said when they take some of her blood. She couldn't have known when she agreed that doctor was going to cut her brain out, because that's the only way they could have gotten the cordyceps they needed to possibly manufacture a "cure". A few things you need to remember is this: In the 1968 sequence, John Hannah's character Dr. Neumann said there was no medicine, no vaccine. "We lose." In Jakarta in the pre-breakout sequence in 2003, remember when the military guy asked Dr. Ratna about medicine and a vaccine. Dr. Ratna said there was no vaccine, no medicine. Given both Neumann and Ratna had advanced labs and the equipment to do the research and testing, what made this doctor in Salt Lake City believe he could create one? Remember what Marlene said to Joel. She used one word twice to explain everything. She said the doctor "thinks" if they cut open Ellie's brain, he "thinks" he can create a cure. Given in 1968 and 2003 there was no cure for this, how are they supposed to make a cure with the lack of facilities to do it? And remember again what Joel said the morning after he, Ellie, and Tess started out after Ellie told him about working on a cure. He scoffed and said they'd been saying that for years. Again, how are they supposed to create this "cure" without testing at the very least, Ellie's blood. Because it would be in her blood through serology and virology testing. For these reasons, I'm solidly on Joel's side and am okay with what he did to save his girl. To me, Marlene was nothing but a zealot no different than David. She betrayed Anna and was going to let Ellie die sooner than fulfill Anna's wishes. To add to that "bigger picture," we forget this is a different world they live in to the one we live in. This world is cruel, brutal, and unforgiving. We cannot transfer our cordycep-less world on to this scenario. The bigger picture is this to ponder: What IF Marlene and this quack doctor had been able to find a "cure" from Ellie's death. What would have stopped Marlene from incentivizing it for profit, to more or less say to FEDRA, "You want it, pay me what I want." That would make her no different than FEDRA and in my eyes, no different than Kathleen. Marlene did not raise Ellie. She had no real emotional connection to her the way Joel did. Joel and Ellie went through life, death, life, rebirth, and all stages in between, together. Joel saved Ellie. Ellie saved Joel. In the end, Joel was the adult and I beg anyone to sit by and allow this girl to die solely on a "maybe." Marlene and that doctor just went in for the cutting and killing. Nothing was said about conducting tests on Ellie's blood to synthesize it for a "cure." As for how Ellie got the immunity: Anna was left alone with Ellie for some time after she gave birth. Anna used the knife to kill the runner, then used it to immediately cut the umbilical cord. The cordyceps were on the knife. Whatever was on the knife was transferred to Ellie, then traveled down the umbilical as Anna waited for Marlene to arrive. Anna was just starting to feel the effects of the cordyceps, but unlikeTess, would have taken longer to turn due to the location of the bite. So in the hours from birth to Marlene arriving, the cordyceps traveled down the umbilical to Ellie's blood stream.
All of it gray, each side had noble goals. The conflict rose because Marlene could not risk Ellie saying no, and Joel could not risk her saying yes. As a father myself, I don't think I could have let my child die for only a chance it might work to save the world regardless. In the end Joel did do what Tess asked... "Save who you can save", and as Bill said "and god help any MFer who gets in our way". Is Joel the bad guy? "after all he did a bad guy thing" -Henry, no more than anyone else trying keep their family alive.
I couldn’t agree more. That’s the thing - “we think”, “a chance for a cure”… those aren’t good enough odds and not good enough science for me to just say “okay let’s do it!”… I think Joel is a good person at heart who has had to do a hell of a lot of bad guy things, honestly. As I’ve said, it’s people just trying to find their place, their people, their happy, in this crazy post apocalyptic world.
Love the parallels between Joel and Anna. In Ep 8, at the end, Joel soothes a screaming Ellie by holding her and telling her “It’s okay, I got you.” At the beginning of Ep 9, although it’s a flashback, we see Anna calming Ellie as a baby by holding her and saying “It’s okay, I’ve got you”. Both times, Ellie, in her most vulnerable moments, is comforted and soothed by a parent. Anna: “I cut it before I was bit.” Joel: “They’ve stopped looking for a cure.” Parents lying to protect their kids. Regardless of what you think was right, we can all agree that we can understand why Joel did it, and we can also understand why Ellie would not have wanted him to do it. The first episode is called, “When You’re Lost in the Darkness”, and the finale is called “Look for the Light”. Ellie’s name literally means light. She took Joel out of his darkness, and helped him heal. Joel was remembering Bill’s letter, “I used to hate the world and I was happy when everyone died. But I was wrong, because there was one person worth saving. So that’s what I did-I saved him, and then I protected him. That’s why men like you and me are here, we have a job to do-and God help anyone who stands in our way.” Bill’s person was Frank, Joel’s is Ellie. At the same time, Ellie is remembering what Maria told her, “The only people who can betray us are the ones we trust”…😢❤ It’s a beautiful narrative though-two broken, hurting people who find healing in each other. It’s not time that heals our wounds, it’s people, and the love that we give and receive from them. ❤ All of those Emmy nominations were so deserved, and can’t wait for Season 2!
This won't be a spoiler for season 2 because it doesn't change anything fundamentally about the story but the whole procedure planned by the "surgeon" is quite a bit of an ethical quagmire. Not only is Jerry Anderson not a neurosurgeon, surgeon or doctor for that matter, he is a post-grad biologist who learned surgical procedures in a post-pandemic world that is going on a harvesting expedition in the brain of a young girl without even knowing if his theory is going to work out.
Ellies mom, and Ellies OG in game actress. :') She brought this absolutely amazing character to live in the games through her acting and now she's given birth to Bellie in the show. The perfect cameo for her. A lot of Ellie's character is actually from Ashley, like her nervous finger fidgeting, or her entire space nerding are all from Ashley's own persona. I'm not sure if Marlene knew for sure at the time that she was bitten before cutting the cord (with the dirty knife no less), but probably suspected it. But I think it likely played into her ordering the other Fireflies not to shoot Ellie when she found her, likely grieving over Riley's body. In the game, in the couple sections where you play as Ellie (David & the Riley DLC) you can actually check her backpack and find Riley's Firefly pendant, a bunch of other easter eggs that are more related to how the game did it, and a bloodied letter from her mom. Super easy to miss if you don't look for it. This is even more interesting because the show didn't include this. However, Ashley Johnson actually wrote said letter down on a piece of paper and kept it in her jacket, the one that she wraps Ellie into before giving her to Marlene. And yes, her immunity, her being the cure, became her identity the moment she survived Riley, leaving her with that survivors guilt. What happened to Riley, what happened to Anna, what happened to Tess, Sam and Henry, even Joels injury and her experiences with David and all the other shit that happens in the world is due to the infected flipping the world upside down. And she is the potential answer to that, the thing that could let us recover and heal again, the thing that prevents so much suffering and savagery in the world. It's really important to understand this from Ellie's perspective in regards to the ending, because Joel took that away from her. He basically took away her identity and what she would've wanted to do. On the other hand of course it is also sad, because Ellie does not see herself as anything more than that. She does not see that she's also valued as just a person (there's some words in Anna's letter to reflect this too), but Joel doing this effectively left her empty and without purpose, which just further worsened her identity crisis. That sudden realization of what Joel just said though. lol Their talk is a little two sided though, because that's also pretty much a developing codependency between the two, which of course also results in the ending of Joel murdering almost everyone at the hospital, including possibly one of the few experts that still existed, and then lying to Ellie, probably more so to protect himself. In regards to the science behind the infection the show actually gives more information than the game. But in both cases the developers wanted to present a trolley problem, but multiplied by a few billions. Basically Ellie vs all of humankind, those existing as well as all those future generations yet to be born. Marlene and the Fireflies entire goal, which Anna was also part of, was to restore society. Their decision making prioritizes basically the greater good, hence why Ellie is the answer to possible human extinction. Joel on the other hand acts more out of selfish means, because he doesn't want to lose another daughter again and probably end up killing himself. In the end, both sides decide over Ellie's head, though, in the game there's a recording of Marlene saying they asked her, but that it is probably just a formality and that they would do it either way, regardless of her decision. I would also fully expect to Joel do the same thing even if they would've asked Ellie. Part 2 will be multiple seasons, and the first probably won't come out until 3-5 years from now, especially with the writers strike still ongoing.
All excellent points! This whole show, and particularly this episode, presented some really morally gray areas and discussion points. I love hearing everyone's opinions on it! Thank you so much for sharing 😊 I can't wait for season 2, even though I know it'll be... A while... Before it comes out!! Thanks for the support 😊
I just got done watching your The Last of Us reactions, and you got yourself a new subscriber. I won't repeat any of the facts I've seen other people say already, but The Last of Us is definitely a pretty heavy-hitting journey. I've played through the first game well over 20 times, to a point where I'm not even counting anymore, and it really gets you every time you play through it. With the show I love how they stayed faithful to the game but also added some new things without going too far. Like giving both Bill and Frank a much greater backstory than what we could learn from the game. Sure we missed out on some hilarious banter between Ellie and Bill, but I'm not upset about it, because in exhange we got one of the most beautiful and touching love stories ever. I sure cried my eyes out watching the episode. I quickly learned to love both Pedro and Bella, too. Really great casting choices. Now they're the definition of Joel and Ellie to me, just like Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson are. Good stuff.
Thank you so much!! I’ve heard wonderful things about the games too. And watching the after episode behind the scenes discussions, it sounds like the creators basically tried to improve on what the did the games (resonated with different people differently). Regardless - I haven’t played the game (yet) but I loved the series this far ❤️🙏🙈
21:48 And THIS is why this story has captivated so many people since the video game came out in 2013. Everyone "gets" it. But people find themselves on both sides of should he or shouldn't he have done that. And honestly, I dont think Ellie believes him at all. I'm pretty sure she knows he is lying to her. But honestly, she has to try to believe it because now she has to live with his choices.
Two things that I loved about your reaction that others seem to miss are: why kill the one person we know is immune? I mean, we literally are still using HeLa cells because they can reproduce. And the other is that the Doctor "thinks" this could work. It was never a guarantee. Which circles back to the first point. There is a question at the end: was Joel right? Since the inception of the game this has been asked. I think the Fireflies were desperate so they rush and cling to the possibility regardless of the scientific process. Joel also is being selfish because we all know Ellie would have sacrifice herself to give her life meaning/purpose. Definitely there could have been a better compromise if cooler heads would have prevailed. On the other hand, hindsight is 20/20, and while playing this game I just felt what Joel was feeling and I know I would have done the same as him under the circumstances.
Thank you!! To answer your questions - oy, such a morally gray area, right? I think Joel was right in getting her out of there. She's too young to have that decision put on her right then. She should be able to make that sort of decision when she is an adult (assuming there are still people out there that can formulate a cure, etc etc). So he took on the father role and made the decision for her, did not burden her with that right now. BUT, I think she does need to know the truth at some point. Of course, I do believe Ellie, as an adult, would still make the decision to sacrifice herself for the good of humanity. I think she needs time, though, and to be able to really make that decision herself as a cool-headed adult. So morally gray! I don't like the lying. It doesn't feel good to me at all. But I also understand why Joel did it. I also didn't like the rampage... But that's all he knows in terms of how to get Ellie out of there and to safety. It's a difficult situation entirely. Does that answer your questions?? Lol! I feel like I just rambled 😝
@@JessTheMD Rambling is good on this, in my opinion. Like you mentioned, it is all gray! In the gaming community this has been a debate for 10 years and even to this date there is not actual consensus. I like that these questions are posed, it gives everything a deeper meaning. I don't like the lying either, but again, I am not sure I would do any different than Joel under the circumstances. Without any spoilers, this last episode is the direct catalyst to everything that will happen in the next seasons. You are in for a ride when they come out lol Thanks again for the awesome reaction and great insight/point of view!
Excellent reaction! Apologies for the long comment incoming. I was really looking forward to your insights on the medico-ethical issues here. I've seen reactions from others in your profession (doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist and maybe a couple others), and all of you want more explanation on the medical side of the immunity/cure. The show actually gives more information than the game, although in the game there were others that the doctor had experimented on looking for the cure with no success, which kinda explains why they were so desperate to 'use' Ellie (I also think it was partly being desperate to gain an advantage over FEDRA). The creators haven't given more explanation, maybe they will go more in depth later. Fun Facts: - The bit with Elllie's mom was not in the game but was a background piece that Neil gave to Craig for info, and Craig said they had to make it. Also they both agreed it had to be at the end of the season "because it hurts more". - The hospital stuff was filmed (I think all of it, but not sure) in a real (but decommissioned) hospital in Grand Prairie, the location furthest away from the rest of production (seriously, why/how did the location scout find themselves there?). Worked out because again it looks real cause it is. - The giraffe is real, they filmed in his enclosure at the Calgary Zoo. If you ever visited, you too can feed Nabo! - The final segment of the show (basically from the elevator on) was damn near identical to the game, to the point of the editing cuts being the same. The show runner (Craig) was adamant that they matched it 1-for-1 because "regardless if you agree with Joel or not, the ending to the game is correct", and "if you want to change the ending of the Last of Us, you're a fucking idiot." -To the point above, I highly recommend watching a comparison of the two mediums (I'd link it but youtube doesn't seem to like it), the best one is "The Last of Us Episode 9: TV Show vs Game Comparison" by IGN channel. A couple final bits: - Both Ellies (Ashley and Bella) have said Ellie would 100% chosen to die for a CHANCE of a cure, and with a huge dose of survivor's guilt, does that muddy the informed consent waters, is she really of 100% sound mind there? Is Joel a valid parental figure who can make those choices? Should Marlene, who Ellie's mom chose to take her? Just a massive clusterfork with no good choices. Like you said, we understand why Marlene and Joel did what they did. - The co-show runner and game creator (Neil Druckman) talked in the companion podcast about asking his father about a prisoner swap that the leader of Israel did a long time ago (a lot of prisoners traded for 1 Israeli citizen, whether it was a good choice. His father asked if he was asking as the Prime Minister, or as the man's father, because he would trade 1000 people to save his son while acknowledging that it was a terrible move by the Prime Minister. - Craig Mazin talked about how both Marlene and Joel were making essentially Utilitarian choices, least harm for the most good to the world, but that to Joel, Ellie is the world. - What does that last 'Ok' mean? Ashley has said it's "Ok... we're done here, I can't trust you and what we had is broken." Bella said that it's "Ok, I'm going to chose to believe you because the alternative is too terrible to consider." What do you feel it means?
Love the fun facts! Thank you!! I'll definitely check out the comparison - that sounds awesome. Thanks! - I definitely agree with that. I also get the sense that Ellie would make the decision to die for a chance of a cure. But I think as an adult, she might think more deeply and demand more information about how she'll be of help, and how her death will help. I still believe she'd do it - no doubt, but I think she might just help to make sure that the science is sound before ACTUALLY doing it, when she's a bit older, more mature, with a more fully developed adult brain and thought process. Does that make sense? Like as a kid, she would just blindly trust that the adults have the science figured out. As an adult, given more time, she might be able to contribute to the science in some way, and then do it, or something like that? She needs time to process everything to actually be of sound mind to make an informed decision, in my humble opinion. 😊 I think keeping her alive right now was the right choice - I really believe that Ellie could do some serious good and help contribute more than just her body. She's a ridiculously smart girl, and she could make some great contributions outside of just giving her body to science. Again, speculation and just my opinion on what her future *could* look like 😊 - That last "Ok" for me was the latter - "I'm going to choose to believe you right now, because the alternative is too terrible to consider". That's how I interpreted it, at least. I don't think it's that she feels "we're done here". She really has fallen in love with Joel (as her father, not as a romantic partner, obviously 😝), and I don't think she would just jump to feeling like "we're done here". But again - just my interpretation and my opinion. I think it was left open-ended like that for us to sit and think about it 😝 What do you think??
@@JessTheMD I tend to agree with everything you said there, she needs a chance to grow up and live for herself for a bit. She needs to have a fully formed sense of self (and fully developed brain!). She needs to be able to process her guilt. But in that given situation, the only way to give her that is to do what Joel did, which removes the possibility of the cure (at least this attempt). For the record, I'm with Joel 100%. What he did was wrong, most of those people were innocent, they were working to save mankind, and I would have done the same thing. But how else do you give Ellie a chance to make an actual informed decision about it? Everyone that died to protect her because she was cure is worth it to her if there's a cure. Without that, what is her life worth? She's never meant anything to anyone other than Riley, so how could she see her life as having value in and of itself? - To paraphrase Troy Baker (game Joel), with the killing and lying about the killing, he lit his soul on fire to save Elle's. It was a 100% selfish choice (no way he's losing another daughter), but there are no good choices left. - I also agree with you that she could make some great contributions to the world, and I selfishly want her to live because she is ridiculously smart, has a world-class BS detector, and will do literally anything for those she loves. She deserves to have some time to live for herself which she's never had so far. - I felt the last 'Ok' was more closer to Bella's interpretation, something like "There's some bullshit going on here, and I know, but I love you so I won't call you on it... yet" I haven't played the second game yet, but I know where the story goes so I won't comment further on this line other than to say when I played the game the first time I was struck with two powerful emotions at that line: 1- Holy shit what an amazing story, I can't believe a game can be that good. 2 - Oh my god I feel so uncomfortable, like almost queezy inside, how do they fix this? - Neil Druckman was asked near the end of production of the game "aren't you afraid people will hate the ending? That they'll be mad at you?" He said as long as people are discussing the end, he doesn't care. That apathy is the worst response to him. Also an semi-famous story about the game that during production when people had free time, Neil would have them actually play the game and then after, ask them if they agreed with Joel. He found a fascinating result, that there were 2 defined groups in the responses. One group was split evenly with whether they agreed with Joel or not, and the second group was 100% with Joel. The second group were the people with kids. - Neil also said that this story is about love, about how amazing and powerful it is, and about the terrible things people will do for those they love. I've seen people describe it as a tragedy disguised as a story of hope. -I wanted to throw out a suggestion for a reaction for ya, but it might be hard to do, so maybe just a suggestion for a show to watch on your own? Orphan Black (staring Tatiana Maslany from She-Hulk) was a show about clones. What if someone were running a secret cloning experiment, what would it look like and what would be the implications? There are some seriously interesting things from medical, biology, medico-ethical perspectives (not to mention each clone's sense of self in the face of having genetic identicals), but those topics only get covered seriously later in the series. It's 5 seasons of 10 episodes and the actual answers from a medical perspective are more in seasons 3, 4 and 5. So while you could simply react to the relevant episodes, the show is so good on an emotional level I hesitate to deprive you of that enjoyment too hah! But I could curate a list of relevant episodes. -The reason I recommend that show to everyone I know is that Tatiana is just so damn good in it. Every clone is a fully realized individual. They don't just speak differently (each has a different accent, most are excellent), but how she uses her mouth to speak is different, how they walk and stand are different. Also even though it's not obvious, the audience can tell if one clone is attempting to impersonate another. - The show had a expert consultant working on it, Cosima Herter (for whom one of the clones was named), a PhD in the history and philosophy of science. As she says, the science is stretched a bit, it's plastic, but to quote her: "You have to suspend your disbelief, but only so much, because much of it is actually quite plausible. Much of it is actually quite real."
Season two, no spoilers, will resolve a lot of the questions you have, but it will be a brutal ride to get there. Tlou part three is set up to be the best of the series, and a fitting end.
18:40 I disagree, I think the fact that this is a post-apocalyptic environment with humanity's survival in the balance matters massively. Surely, the point of informed consent and ethics in general is to reduce human harm? In this situation, if the Fireflies inform Ellie of the operation and she does not consent, and the Fireflies respect that and allow her to leave, then the human race is doomed. If they don't respect her consent and conduct the operation against her will there's at least a chance, even if it's a small one, that they save humanity from the brink of extinction. In that context I think prioritizing the consent of a single individual over the potential survival of all mankind is like valuing the letter of a law over the spirit of a law; it's missing the forest for the trees.
I totally understand that. I think this is the beauty of this story - I see all sides of this argument! There is the argument that even if they had enough knowledge and technology to find/develop a cure or vaccine, they don’t have the infrastructure to distribute it… so there’s a lot there to unpack about whether or not it’s reasonable to kill the one person that might give them a chance without the proper infrastructure to get this out to everyone even if they’re able to make the science work. Just another angle to think about 😊 I don’t disagree with you though. 😊 it was an apt opportunity to bring up the idea of informed consent 😝
Joel confesses that the scar on his face was self-inflicted, he tried to end it all. Joel is the biggest infected of the series, at the moment Sarah died... Joel died with her. Ellie is the cure for all humanity, but at the same time is the only cure that exists to heal the wound that the loss of Sarah left in Joel. Joel is the great selfish of the series, and the love of a father is wonderful but can also be terrifying, because when you love someone that way you would be able to burn the world to protect that person. Joel could have saved humanity and decided not to, the world took everything from Joel, so Joel took everything from the world.
I see your point! I will add, though, that I feel like we all (Joel included) need more of an explanation of the science, and maybe even some evidence that it would work... And my other hot take is - let Ellie grow up, and make an adult decision to help. I am convinced that she would/will sacrifice herself to save humanity. But she's a really smart person. Maybe she can not only contribute her physical body to this, but her mind and intelligence as well - ie, maybe she can help contribute to the science too? I haven't played the game, so I don't know what's coming, but just a thought I had 😊
In the video game, you actually come across brain scans and X-rays of Ellie’s! You can actually see just how intertwined in her brain it is, almost like a tumor with a bunch of tendrils spreading outwards but then stopping at a point. There’s also a recording left by the surgeon you can listen to and it goes more into detail about where cordyceps is “living” inside of Ellie, just stuff that scientific-brained people would find interesting!
Before Covid I would’ve been skeptical about the FFs’ ability to create, manufacture and distribute a vaccine just because they had clearly lost the political struggle and it sounded like they weren’t even confident they could keep power on during the procedure (doc asks the nurses if they have enough power, I think). But we saw during Covid how the biggest pharmas in the world, multi-billion dollar corps, with massive resources in terms of qualified researchers and world class facilities, needed all those resources. And some of them had to collaborate. It just seems implausible that the FFs in a post apocalypse with scarce resources could do that.
The core of the episode is the trolley problem. In the fiction of the show, Ellie's sacrifice WILL create a vaccine and WILL save humanity. People like to debate that the Fireflies wouldn't be able to, or that the doctor wouldn't be able to make a vaccine, or that they wouldn't give it to everyone, etc. But that's avoiding the core question: is it okay to sacrifice one person (even if that person is okay with it) for the good of all humanity? And what if that person is someone close to you? The irony here is that neither Joel or Marlene want to allow Ellie to make her own choice. Joel is afraid she'll say yes since he knows her, Marlene is afraid she'll say no since she doesn't know her.
Thank you so much!!! New Scrubs reaction coming this monday 😝 If you have any other shows/movies/episodes/media topics you want to hear about, let me know! I'm all ears for new ideas 😊
I cried when Marlene died in the game and series. It was something that had to be done, for so many reasons, but still, she didn't deserve that. Such a great character. In that rampage, you get to see why Marlene and so many others feared Joel. His ruthlessness was well-known. He left a long trail of bodies throughout the decades of the infection. Even Tommy feared what he had become. Joel never really thought about it because of the layers of trauma and being in constant survival mode. He's not had time or resources to process everything. Ptsd is a mutha when you don't get downtime.
I would say that the chemical messenger is produced by Ellie's cells, not the fungus itself. So they couldn't use a cordyceps sample and get those chemical messengers. I guess that because Ellie received such a small concentration of cordyceps in her system, her immune system was able to fight it off.
I always assumed that it wasn’t the bite itself that gave Ellie her antibodies, but rather the umbilical cord being cut with a knife that had been plunged into a zombie three to four times right before that.
@@professionaljackass Well, actually when the infected bites the mother, she tries to cut the umbilical cord as soon as possible so that the infection does not pass to Ellie. And the time she takes to cut it, which is barely 10 seconds, is what made Ellie immune from birth. What you say is something more complex.
@bernardo5217 Not sure I agree 100%. I put it up there with surgery without sterilization, or using dirty utensils. Germs can enter the body quickly, and Anna didn't wipe the knife off that we can see. She cuts the cord just after noticing that she'd been bitten. Then again, maybe it was those two circumstances that combined to make Ellie that special.
This was a great ending to the first episode. Jess the md you did a great job at digging into the need to know questions and med issues that arose. Thanks! Luv ya Jess❤💛 Always sending good vibes... Endure & Survive! 💚
I tried to suggest it to JezPrada, who currently does Attack on Titan (very much recommended, especially if you like the emotional roller coaster of Part 2). She liked the base game which she played, maybe add your wish too if you want to see more people react to it.
The change in dynamic after his lie & while he's talking about Sarah made me so uncomfortable. I could feel Ellie becoming emotionally stuck while Joel kept moving forward avoiding what happened. It gave me such a realistic ache in the pit of my stomach thinking about moments in my own life where I've felt a shift in the energy with another person. It'll be very interesting to see how this affects their relationship.
So true!! Interesting to see Joel open up and be more “fun and chatty” while she’s “shutting down” because she’s sensed this shift in dynamic.. she definitely senses the lie, and I’m curious to see how their relationship changes/evolves too!
Yeah, he kinda turned Ellie into a Sarah replacement. The whole suicide talk also kinda felt like it showed the growing codependency going on. The whole ending was wild. Imagine this 10 years ago, and not even knowing if there will be a continuation of the story for many more years to come.
@@Dark__Thoughts I actually think the suicide reveal was a good thing, but just bad timing. It was a big step for him. He was basically saying he loves/trusts her, but then finding out she has to die triggered his trauma & he did what he did. If they had been able to just continue on together without all of that, Joel probably would've been able to heal in a healthy way with her & his brother.
I'm glad you stuck with and enjoyed the show. The Last of Us 2 game makes a pretty abrupt time jump 4 years later. I guess it would be more interesting if in season 2 of the show it is wholly new/original stuff, and then with season 3 they adapt the second game's story. That's just my thought, anyway.
About your uncertainty regarding the procedure... As I understand it, Ellie's version of cordyceps is mutated. That's what makes it different. They can't harvest it from the infected to make those chemical messengers, only Ellie's will. They need to harvest it directly and grow it so that they will always have enough of it to mass produce the chemical messengers in the future for distribution. Similar to how doctors today still grow the Penicillium mold to produce penicillin in large quantities. Sounds like they don't have the knowledge or skill to artificially copy those messengers directly, they need Ellie's mutated fungus itself as the sole source for manufacture. Perhaps in a modern world they'd be able to safely harvest a small amount from her brain tissue without killing her, but this is a post-apocalyptic world, probably one where highly skilled brain surgeons are gone or scarce. Any invasive brain surgery therefore is unfortunately likely to be fatal. Love your reactions, thank you!
Interesting point! I think the most poignant part of your comment is that they don't have the knowledge or skill anymore to artificially copy it, so in these post-apocalyptic times, all they can do is take it directly out of Ellie. Such an interesting thought! Thank you! And thanks so much for the support! Can't wait for season 2... Whenever it comes out 😝 In the meantime - other reactions and discussions to come for other shows/movies/popular topics! ❤️😝
It was fantastic to see your journey through TLOU. I often asked myself if many of what we have seen make sense from a medical standpoint and you have clarified all those questions. I just think everybody here would love if you include more scenes from the show in the next content that you choose to react. Your medical opinion is very important but your reaction as just a person watching the history is also very interesting. Thank you!
Thank you so much!! I’d love to include more scenes, but copyright claim issues preclude that. I leave in as much as I can!! I’ll try and switch up exactly how I’m doing this reactions to leave in more of the scenes - but it will definitely make the vids a lot longer too 😊 thank you for the feedback!
Loved this episode. Havent seen this show. I had the same concerns with regards to Anaesthesia thanks for clarifying. Side note, is the a breathing machine sounds going at 16.16 even though she wasnt tubed?
Great to get a doctor's perspective! Quick comment on informed consent. Even in our current world not all governments are democratic and value human rights. So it's logical in such environment (mid-evil with war lords) it's which group have "bigger guns" or manpower can do what they want. Also if ask Ellie for consent then the story wouldn't be as mysterious or controversial. But both Ellie actresses in the show and the game said Ellie will want to do it, and so does the showrunner (from HBO's "Inside Episode 9". As for more info from the doctor, there are 3 recordings in the game that Joel picked up in the hospital and one was from the surgeon. Also in the Part II game, a flashback (emotional) discussion between Marlene and the surgeon implied had to extract from the brain. All these probably theorized front the ant zombie where cordyceps wrapped and fused with the brain and the surgeon/doctor needed some root/source in order to grow in the lab.
Agreed - great points here! I definitely believe that Ellie will want to do it. I just want her to be a mature adult, with adult decision making capacity, to make that decision for herself. I fully believe she would do it, but maybe as an adult, she'll ask more questions about the science of it all, maybe she'll even help CONTRIBUTE to the science before she sacrifices herself. I don't know. I haven't played the game, so I don't know what's to come, but this would be my thought for how her character could contribute more ❤️
The thing about informed consent in this situation is, what would Marlene and the Fireflies (great name for a band) do if Ellie said no to the surgery? Just let the only chance at a cure walk away and go live at Tommy and Maria's? It's one thing to say you need to be damned sure the cure will work before you kill someone to make it (bummer clinical trials aren't an option), that is good logic for Joel stopping it. But our medical ethics on consent don't work in this situation, there is always another way in our world, in the very least people who are willing to consent to whatever experimental procedure is being undertaken, and in virtually all cases the person consenting is simply making a decision about their own health, not the fate of humanity and being its last best hope. In that world, there is no other way (within the narrative we're given absent fan speculation), except to let the cordyceps apocalypse continue. It's a hard argument to make that consent is sacrosanct here.
I totally get what you're saying. There really is a solid argument for the lack of existence of medical ethics in a post-apocalyptic world!! I still don't believe that the only way would be to kill her and cut out her brain. Just sounds bananas to me! 😝
I remember playing this final level of the brain and finding a tape recorder from the surgeon explaining Ellie’s immunity and the procedure. A LOT of medical jargon that I did not understand my first time listening 😅. Maybe if you look it up in the game, you can understand what he’s saying and get the further explanation??
@@JessTheMD True, but my point was that they probably had neither the supplies nor the inclination to do the anesthesia professionally. They were probably just knocking her out since they didn't have to worry about her survival.
The other thing about the whole 'cure' thing is that while it's medically not possible, this is sci-fi and so forth, the story's creator, Neil Drukman said that is works. So in THIS world, Ellie would have saved the world becuase that is cannon. In OUR world, getouttahere!
they said the fungus mutated so the chemical is only in the mutated version in ellie. they want to duplicate the strain i guess sort of like the hela cells scientists use?
They dont grow in the brain. I watched this documentary on them, when they take over the ant, they are in the torso area. You can see them, but still able to control the ant
Great reaction again, Jess! I also found the scene where Joel opened up to Ellie about his attempted suicide to be very emotional. And see, the showmakers knew you were going to ask about where the cordyceps grows, so they answered it for you. 😁 I can't wait for season 2 as well!
@@JessTheMD the revelation that Joel attempted to take his own life broke my heart on two levels: 1.) Knowing that he tried added more weight to him trying to help Henry and get him to not take his life. Because Joel had been there, he knew that look and knew exactly where Henry was thinking/planning on doing. 2.) Pedro himself has shared in several interviews that he lost his own mom to suicide when he was younger. So I imagine that was emotional both for his character, but for himself as an actor to go to that place. And you know that had Joel lost Ellie that day, he would have attempted again, and probably would have succeeded. 😢
Another reason for the lie I think is to take the pressure off her shoulders. Joel probably wants to avoid her being devastated to the point where she might harm herself or end her own life, thinking her 'one purpose' is now gone. Knowing other immune people existed and couldn't provide a cure would perhaps free her to live some kind of a normal life. Of course she suspects Joel isn't telling the whole truth, but I think with everything she's been through it's probably easier for her to just go with it for the time being. I don't think Joel's necessarily a 'bad' person for doing this. Misguided perhaps, but there is some reasoning there.
Agreed. I feel like she needs to know the truth, but later, when she’s older, more mature, able to handle it and make her own informed decisions. Again, that’s assuming there’s someone else out there that can help actually create a cure and/or vaccine 😊 It’s definitely wrong to put it in her shoulders now, but also… the lying has definitely changed their dynamic. It’s morally/ethically sticky at best 😕
@@JessTheMDJoel definitely probably sensed some depression in her, so he shared his story as a way to say, “I know you’re in pain-I’ve been there too. And it’ll be okay.” ❤
Interesting thing, in the game, you have to shoot the doctor to proceed. You cant scare him off, and you can't just injure him, because even if you shoot him in the foot or just graze him, he immediately dies. Leg, toe, arm, even the slightest graze, and the doctor falls dead. A video game channel commented on this, in an episode about games that wouldn't let you do the right thing.
A personal favorite show of mine is Metalocalypse. It's a black comedy about a death metal band. Super short episodes and they're animated. There's a lot of gore because of the type of humor used, so a lot of accidents. Otherwise, one I've always wanted a doctor to go into would be the Hitman video game series. Multiple comedic and serious ways to assassinate someone, from black leather gloves and a garrote to a man dressed as a pirate slapping someone unconscious with a fish.@@JessTheMD
It was interesting to watch the similarities between the series and the game. I think I could survive being in the wild. I think the social aspect would get me killed. I would slip up and trust the wrong person or something.
Great reaction 👍 some spoilers from season 2 regarding Ellie being infected or immune or not, and I will try to keep it as short as possible.... Spoilers ! ... In the 2nd game there is a recorded audio log made by a surgeon, it tells us that an antigen test of Ellie show that the amount of cordyceps remain high in both her brain and spinal fluid, and that blood from her rapidly grow cordyceps in fungal tests in the lab. However, her white blood cells that should be fighting the infection are not doing so, so that everything that should be inflammatory and make her Zombie-like is not, even though she is technically infected, or in other words her immune system is not reacting to the infection at all, which on the surface, makes her not seem sick at all. Ellies medical blood work charts show that the level of both red hematocrit cell count and white blood cells are very low, just as her hemoglobin, so for a person that is infected she is showing the opposite of what should be the case for a person with an inflammatory reaction, or in other words she is showing immunosuppression, so everything points to her being infected, but by a non-lethal string of the many different species of cordyceps, some of which will turn you into different kind of zombies, while some would do the exact opposite, like the Unilateralis cordyceps that turn ants into zombies, while the Tolypocladium inflatum cordyceps is used to create the most commonly used immunosuppressant drug cyclosporine, that would give you all the results that we see in Ellies medical charts, lowering the white blood cell levels and so prevent all your inflammation by keeping your immune system from doing it's job. In real life this cordyceps fungus would obviously not be able to infect a human host, but in this show it would, because they have mutated. So Ellie (and her brain) is in fact infected according to all the test results and test gadget also show, but with a strain of cordyceps that is used to make cyclosporine A, that is an anti-fungal medicine, which would explain why she is showing no symptoms of an infection and cannot be infected by any of the other species of cordyceps, because it not only suppresses her immune system but also fight off all other fungi. The cyclosporine A medicine is used to treat even the most severe fungal infections we know of, including severe fungal infections in the eyes, which is a key area that the zombie cordyceps attack besides the brain. So Ellie is not immune, but already infected by a string of cordyceps that kills off all other strings. So she cannot become a cure herself, but they need to infect people with the right strain of cordyceps to fight off all the other strains that create zombies. Unfortunately, just like in the case with Ellies mother, they shoot everyone who are infected, because they assumed that they will turn. So that anyone who got infected, would either turn or be killed because they were infected, except for Ellie because her infection was hidden long enough to prove that she would not turn, even after getting infected a 2nd and 3rd time. The question is how they are going to deal with this data, if at all, in season two, or what direction they are going for. Is she going to be infected or actually immune ?
Consent? Is there any circumstance where it's OK to tell a child that if she allows herself to be killed, then the drugs they might be able to make from her brain, might save mankind? That is a LOT to put on a 14 year old kid? Or any human. Is there actually a choice? Die, save humanity and be a hero ...or live, stuff humanity and be hated for ever. This is why Marlene made the right choice, because Ellie never had a choice. She was always going to die to save humanity, whether she agreed or not. Humanity would not have taken 'no' for an answer ....and what would be the point of asking her in those circumstances? To absolve yourself from the guilt of it by dumping this on a kid who has no real choice anyway? It's also why Joel is justified, he's her dad doing what dads are supposed to do ...protect his kid from those who would hurt her.
Yes definitely - I think this is a conversation to be had later on, when she’s older, and can make an informed decision. You’re right, telling a child to make this decision is completely wrong and unfair. She needs time and then later she can make her own decisions - that’s assuming there’s someone else out there that can help find/make this cure or vaccine 😊
@@JessTheMD I dont think the Fireflies are gonna sit around waiting for some kid to come to terms with her fate. Ellie's fate was sealed as soon as Marlene realised she was immune. I agree the only thing that I really question, is Joel lying to Ellie? That really didnt serve anything or anybody terribly well. There is a risk the dishonesty is more of a betrayal to Ellie than the thing he's lying about. But the both together? Now it's gonna be a much bigger problem than it needed to be.
SPOILERS !!!!!!! Marlene got what she deserved. If she wasn't so incompetent, she possibly would have had the cure and all of the Fireflies would have been fine. Her problem is that she let Joel live after he and Ellie were captured by Fireflies. Scenario 1 - Joel still considers Ellie "cargo" and doesn't give two shits about her: Marlene still didn't uphold her end of the deal - Joel was promised a fueled up truck, weapons and supplies for delivering Ellie. And all Marlene said was "I owe you". Yeah, right... Put yourself in the shoes of ruthless, heartless smuggler, that used to ambush and kill innocent people, that made a deal with Marlene and after you hold up your end, you get "I owe you"... what would you do ? Scenario 2 - Joel has bonded with Ellie and cares deeply about her. He has heard about countless other times when "cure" was a possibility and it never worked out. Now they say that to try this time they need to kill the person that you care about. So you get the same thing that happened here. Both scenarios end in "good" outcome for Marlene if she kills Joel, but Marlene had to keep trying to convince herself that she's "the good guy" and to do that she opposes suggestion to kill him. Same thing with Abby and her group when she let Ellie live after killing Joel. Both Abby and Marlene have deluded themselves into thinking that "I'll do this one bad thing for humanity or to get revenge, but I'm not a bad person". It's naive and childish. TLOU world doesn't have "good guys" and "bad guys" anymore- only people with agendas. And whoever has the most conviction and persistence is going to win. Which brings us back to Joel in the hospital - he was told that his 2nd daughter will die to "save humanity", but after 20 year of taking a good long look at what's left of "humanity" I think that Joel doesn't believe it's worth saving. He's seen the very worst of what humans are capable of and took part/did a lot of it himself. At the start of the show Tess tells Ellie that Joel and her aren't good people. That's the reason he has no problem in clearing almost entire hospital and has no moral qualms about doing it. He had an agenda - not letting his 2nd daughter die, and he killed anyone who got between him and achieving his goal. He didn't try to pretend that he's the "good guy" and he didn't have to justify to himself the actions that he took. He did try to spin the story for Ellie to try to achieve his goal - not losing her, but at no point he had any doubts or reservations about actions he took.
Thank you so very much! I'm glad I got to watch it too! Can't wait to see more!! ❤️ And other reactions/topics of discussion to come, outside of just the Last of Us! 😊
As you said that I really don't know enough about why they are cutting out her brain. I think the doctor sees life as cheap, she dies and it didn't work, we try another.
I refuse to judge Joel for his actions; for his statements. there was precisely ONE way to save Ellie's life--kill the people attempting to justify the murder of a child. I simply cannot KNOW that I would have acted differently; I'd like to THINK that I would rescue and tell her the truth, but I don't even know I would be capable of taking other lives, to save hers. there are similarities to this immoral morality argument in the 1996 film "Phenomenon", starring John Travolta, which might be worth a reaction if you are interested--there is an occurrence, which causes an affliction, which results in changes. I would be fascinated to listen to your thoughts about a great deal of the film "Phenomenon", but that is not why I am typing this message, so I'll get to the point... I cannot thank you enough for your time and your efforts, reacting to this series. I have looked forward to every episode, patient but eager to hear your take on the injuries and afflictions, the physical and emotional trauma, the treatments and the coping mechanisms. I am so grateful for your insights, your explanations, your theories and even your questions. I know our lives may only begin from where we find ourselves at the start of each day, but I wish you and your family every joy and success possible from that beginning, for each and every day to come. I will happily watch everything you choose to share, in the future.
I agree - Joel was in a tough spot, as were Marlene, and Ellie and everyone. It's literally a post-apocalyptic crazy world 😕 I'll check out that movie! I feel like I saw it eons ago, but I'll look into it! Thank you for the idea 😊 Wow! Thank you SO much for that comment and your support! I really appreciate it! I've definitely worked hard on this series and it's been a lot of fun. I sure will continue to do more, outside of just The Last of Us! 😊 Thank you so much!!
As a medical professional, can you clarify something? Is it legal for a 14 year old child to give consent to take part in a medical experiment to find a cure, even if that experiment will most likely result in death? Because, I don't think I'd want to be part of a civilization that could justify sacrificing children on a medical altar for a chance at a cure. Even if the child has been convinced that they should want to do it. Chopping a kid's brain up while they're still alive for "The greater good" should be the final act of a corrupt civilization moments before it's completely destroyed, and all its members become extinct. I'd be willing to bet that the fireflies would refrain from telling the world how their cure came to be. I wouldn't want that cure anywhere near my veins, knowing what they had to do to create it. There's no morally grey dilemma here, and I never understood why everyone thinks there is. No civilized society would ever allow a 14 year old child to vote, or consent to any major decision about their lives, or partake in controlled substances, and there's a very good reason for that. The fact that Ellie consenting to this procedure is even a topic of discussion blows my mind.
No definitely not - she does need to be an adult (and the pre-frontal cortex comment was actually about just that). She needs a fully developed brain to make fully developed adult decisions 😉 Counter point though - this is definitely no longer a fully civilized society. They’re in crazy post apocalyptic times and they’re beyond desperate. Not that that would make it morally okay in any way, but they’re in a state of “we gotta figure something out, anything, and one kid dying for the cause won’t matter” (obviously not my personal thoughts - just what they’re obviously thinking in the show). Say we suspend the whole “minor” part of this situation for a second, and qualify that these are crazy post apocalyptic times when things are beyond desperate. No, a child *shouldn’t* be making this decision and she should be an adult to be able to make this decision. Also, though, they feel time is probably of the essence, and they don’t have the time to wait for her to grow up (I could argue this point too - it’s been 20 years… society has fallen apart, at least let her grow up and make this decision), so the least they could do is actually talk to her about what’s going to happen. But yes, as a medical professional in normal times, absolutely zero decision making capacity in a 14 year old. It’s not okay at all and I definitely don’t agree with a 14yo making medical decisions. But their world is not our world and they’re in such desperate times. That will change someone’s mind in the worst of ways 😔 obviously I don’t think it’s right or okay, but that’s the situation that they are in. 😔
@@JessTheMD Hi liked your reaction so much. I just want to say something about your counter point. I agree with you that a in a post apocalyptic society people will be willing to sacrifice a child for their own survival. But there are some points to be noted, 1. You can give justice to Ellie by killing her for 'the greater good' only if you can guarantee that vaccine will work 100% and it will be distributed 100% properly. And you know even if they are able to make a vaccine there is absolutely 0% chance of distributing that properly like that's not happening. So even if you try to give the benefit of doubt to the Fireflies and Marlene I am sorry but there is no way they deserve any sympathy. 2. I think most people assume that Fireflies and Marlene both have good intentions and they really want to save the humanity. But that's simply not true. The group Firefly literally kills innocent civilians to make you feel their presence. And in the second game and the first episode of the series we get an indication that Marlene is not a good person, she is power hungry and wants everything under her control. Like in the first episode she literally tells one of her Firefly members that killing innocent civilians is justified because they are fighting against FEDRA. Like do you think she really gives a shit about curing humanity. She is so desperate because she can be the ultimate ruler if she has hold on the vaccine which was never going to be a reality. She literally recruited Reilly a 17 year old girl in her group and instructed her to bomb the civilians of Boston. This tells you about her character. We already saw that Fireflies were already loosing to FEDRA and she lost most of her men. So the vaccine was a slight hope for her regaining any kind of power which has a deep desire inside her, that's why she didn't even bother informing Ellie. Because she need to get the vaccine immediately to regain power. That's why she willing kill Ellie for the slight chance of getting a vaccine. 3. The doctor later revealed in the second part of the game was just a military doctor. And all the things Marlene told Joel was a mere theory he came up with and there was absolutely zero scientific evidence behind the theory. So you there is absolutely 0% chance that he can ever make a vaccine. Hence Marlene wanted to sacrifice her best friends daughter whom she made a promise that she will keep her safe just for her lust for power. So Marlene deserves no sympathy or no benefit of doubt. Joel was absolutely right wiping out all the Fireflies and brutally killing Marlene. I mean after Joel killed all the Fireflies she tried to psychologically manipulate Joel to have Ellie. Her desire for power was so strong that despite knowing there is no hope for vaccine she still can't let Ellie go because she was her last hope for her regaining power. She literally she "we can still do the right thing", like how? Anyways I think Joel was absolutely right killing the Fireflies and Marlene. Though I think he should have told Ellie the truth. But I think you understand why he did this. And if you read all the things written in the comment thank you so much🥰 and sorry for writing such a long comment🙃.
@@cullenarthur8879I agree. However, the fireflies claim they want to cure the infection to restore civilization, by committing one of the most barbaric, uncivilized acts I can think of. The sacrifice of an innocent child. They're really getting that new civilization started on the right foot, huh? Let's leave that part out of the stories we tell our grandkids in 50 years about how we restored civilization, shall we?
Haaaa I so wished you didn't cut some scenes so early like the "I'd follow you anywhere' or the 'it wasn't time that did it' :-{ You have great reactions and insights, I feel you should've let some linger longer!
Omg those lines “I’d follow you anywhere” and “it wasn’t time that did it” shattered me! Thank you for the feedback! I will try to leave more in, or cut in a way that I can leave more in. Part of the issue is copyright and trying to not violate copyright laws 😔 I’ll do my best! Thank you again! And thank you for the support! 😊
Haha no - mainly because when any healthcare professional is about to do a procedure, they counsel their patients and talk them through the forms that they’re going to be signing… it’s definitely different than what they did to Ellie in the show 😉
Agreed with saving, hated the lying! The science was pretty damn hand wavy and to just go for it without further tests ... ugh ... but don't lie to her.
Anyway, like I said last week already it is clear that Joel is a good man but still a horrible human being. Two wrongs don't make a right. That said, the whole situation is morally and ethically ambiguous (as describing the "surgeons" background in my other comment). Makes for GREAT television drama though!
There was a psychiatrist who was on the verge of tears during Joel's rampage. I loved that they made the fireflies sympathetic during Joel's rampage. I was in tears too. Loved how the doctor said, "omg, he's killing everyone." Love the empathy she demonstrated.
People watching / playing are often too stuck in "their team" (Joel, not even Ellie at this point, just Joel). Joel murders countless of people there, including the doctor with all of his knowledge and expertise, who all had family and friends that can now mourn over their loss, just so that Joel can have his Sarah replacement.
Slight spoiler bc I don't think you are going to play the game but in case you want to don't read............ Ellie was unconscious in the game when they decided to start performing surgery on her. There were no previous conversations. This part of the game was quite more extreme than the show but I think that's a detail HBO definitely dropped the ball on. More justification for Joel's decision if it displayed the fact that Ellie never had realization of anything that was going on the whole time. She was already knocked out and then given the anesthesia for surgery.
Whoa! That seems even crazier than just letting her know she's going into surgery... I totally understand why Joel did what he did. I didn't like the lying, but I get it..
Aww that’s really unfortunate, but honestly totally expected, knowing what I know so far about Ellie’s character… On one hand, I want to play the game, to know what happens. But I also want to watch it as a TV show without knowing what happens beforehand 😅🙈
It seemed to me immediately that only an insane quack would risk the life of an immune patient/cure candidate. It's lazy writing. They didn't lay the groundwork to make this dilemma seem plausible. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but brain biopsies, while dangerous and traumatic, are entirely survivable, yes? But Marlene very much indicates that yes, we're chopping her up on the off chance that works. To me, it immediately justified Joel in getting her away from these obviously incompetent, reckless people. The lying isn't as clear-cut.
Agreed. Yes, a biopsy of the brain is entirely survivable if done properly! This whole scenario is just bonkers to me. Literally - kill the only person (you know of) that potentially holds the answer to this whole apocalypse? No running tests? Just jumping to killing her? It just seems like there are other ways and this was a crazy leap... 😊
@@JessTheMD I understand the narrative, writerly reason of "we want it to be traumatic and sad and morally ambiguous", but they give too many details to hide what a crazy way to go about it this is. You have to give more and better details, or FEWER. Maybe the fungus will kill her if they start messing with her? There are ways to do this twist/dilemma, but they scuffed it.
Second comment but i do think there's something to be said about Joel taking the role of parent and deciding for her. Between her hero-worship (the comics), the grooming it seems Marlene slapped on her, and her young age, i don't think Ellie was capable of providing informed consent. Obviously the apocalypse isn't exactly the time for kids to be kids but I approve of Joel's actions but not how he presented it to her. Season 2 will be wild from a gamer lol
You're totally right - she needs to be older (with a more fully developed pre-frontal cortex, honestly 😝) to make a big decision like that. This whole situation (obviously) was super morally grey. I definitely agree with Joel getting her out of there (maybe not with the John Wick rampage, but if that's the only way... 😕, anywho, I digress..), but ultimately, if finding a cure is still a realistic option in the future, and Ellie's death is the only way to get it, then it should be her decision - in the future. Right now, she's a kid and that cannot be thrown on her shoulders. Joel taking the fatherly role and making the decision for her, and saving her in the moment - not wrong. Lying to her... Morally grey, because I definitely understand why he did it. It's such a nuanced conversation 😊 Can't wait to see the next seasons!!!!
Ha agreed - another person commented that he wasn’t even a physician. He was a biology researcher or something along those lines (ie - not qualified to do brain surgery…). 🙈🙈🙈
not sure if surgery is even the right term. History has a far more horrible but applicable word for this: vivisection. Imho any kinder word would require the fireflies to exhaust all other options first before killing the only immune person. I don’t think they skipped that search for narrative reasons in the show/game. But is there any way Elly could have given informed consent? She is under-age and emotionally distressed. Did Joel save Elly for her own good or his? I love that the Last of Us tells a story of moral grays. All characters have a believable motivation for their deeds. The line between hero and villain is very fuzzy. I would not be surprised if future philosophy students will have do an assignment on this show
Doc, I have the video of the Science used in the game. Would love to hear your thoughts on if this is just a bunch of jargon, or if it makes sense in reality. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AlYV3tjbWlE.html
Thank you so much for posting this!! Marlene's part - so emotional. Wow! Regarding the science, so he's saying the antigenic titers are high - translation: she has a LOT of the antigen (the fungus) still inside of her, and they are growing both in her blood and in her central nervous system (the central nervous system is basically bathed in the cerebrospinal fluid). Since it is present in her blood, the next statement about blood cultures growing Cordyceps in fungal media makes sense; it's just confirming that the actual fungus remains living in her body. The fact that the white blood cell counts are completely normal and no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines means that her body is not launching an immune response against this antigen/the fungus, which makes it make sense when Marlene said that "the fungus inside Ellie has grown with her"... Sounds like the big issue in infected persons actually "losing their minds" is the fungal growth in the limbic region of the brain. But then there's not much more info on *why* she hasn't launched an immune response and *why* it's not actually growing and overtaking her brain. Basically, they're just saying "these are what we've found to be true, but we don't have an explanation of why, and we'd need to kill the host (i.e. Ellie) to figure out the why". From this info, my guess is that part of the infection and the "transformation" has to do with human bodies/the immune system launching an attack against the fungus, and if it doesn't, the person doesn't actually transform? So they're trying to replicate that? Or at least that's what I'm getting from this! With that info, what are your thoughts? 😊 Thanks so much for posting this!!
@@JessTheMD Thanks for putting all of this in simpler terms! So would a simple biopsy not be enough for them to find out? Did they HAVE to kill Ellie in order to obtain the information they needed?
Honestly? Based on this info, I don’t see why they would *have* to kill her! If the fungus is growing in the serum as much as it is in the CSF… the killing her part doesn’t completely make sense to me…. Like at all 😅🙈
@@JessTheMD haha I'll just try to not think too hard and enjoy the drama. 😆Thank you so much for shedding light on the science! If you've got the time, this vid will hype you up for season 2! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3kwUCBryeUg.html
PARENTS give consent for children. Ellie is traumatized, she feels responsible, but she is still a CHILD, and Joel is her father now. I'm with him 100%
that's kinda why I didn't like the change they made with the relationship that Marlene had with Ellie in the game the "everyone I love is either died or left me" speech, the one that left her was Marlene, she was involved in Ellie's life, in the game the doctor did in fact ask her for consent. Joel in their perspective was just the one moving her through the country, the last time Marlene saw him he took the job against his own will, he was in her life for maybe a year or less idk why did they ask permission to the guy who saw her like cargo
Great reaction and thanks for your informative insights. And yes it seemed really crazy to me that they immediately went for lethal brain surgery. And I am still not convinced whether they actually could have managed to create a cure. In any case I think Joel's rampage is justified, especially as the firelights didn't even bother to get consent from Ellie. So they and their end justifies the means logic can get f***ed.
Haha thanks so much for the support! There's so much depth to that discussion about who was right and who was wrong and I feel like I see all sides... Love the grey areas this show takes us to!
Yes, the doctor is ignoring all medical ethics here. He is throwing informed consent, precautionary principles, and First do no harm out the window. And he's 100% in the game failed in all previous attempts. He's a bad doctor going about this in a bad way
The reason why Marlene did not tell Ellie anything before surgery, is because in hope of a cure, they would have killed here no matter what she would have answered or agreed to, no matter how small a chance that it would have worked anyway, when you only have one shot at this, and not being able to make any tests, because Ellie would be the only test sample in any case. At the start of both episode 1 and 2, we are told by experts that finding a vaccine or cure for this is impossible, and early on in episode 2, we are told by Joel that they have failed finding a cure many times before, when he was having an argument with Tess (and Ellie) over Ellie being immune, saying he did not believe in vaccines and finding a cure, because 'non of this works ever', the only reason he ended up going along with actually doing the trip with Ellie is because he was left no choice and it was 'Tess' dying wish', as he later reveal to his brother Tommy in episode 6. With all that in mind, any sane parent would have done everything to save their child, exactly like Joel did. There would also be no reason to have any trust in the science of this broken a world, full of religious nuts and ruthless fanatics constantly fighting to control the QZ's. It's the lies at the end, and so leaving her no choice at all, that makes his decisions comparable to Marlene's. Marlene also defeat her own argument of Joel not being able to keep Ellie alive and from being "ripped apart" by the infected in the future to come, because if she really believed being immune do not really help Ellie from being killed, then what is the point of killing her in an attempt to make other people immune but equally in great risk of being killed by the already infected anyway.
I definitely understand Joel's actions - I really do. It is completely sucky that it had to happen so violently and with the lying 😕 But I do understand why he did what he did. You make a valid argument!!
Joel did the right thing ! Let's assume for a second that Joel goes along with it, lets Fireflies kill Ellie. Let's assume that they DO make the cure and are able to produce as much of it as they want (unlikely, but whatever). What's next ? Distribution ! Now here's where the real problems start. I haven't played 2nd game, but what I can put together from bits and pieces that I've heard- Fireflies pretty much disbanded after hospital massacre and even before that- Marleen said that she lost half her crew getting there. That means that Fireflies don't have enough people and firepower to safely travel across the country. What happens when they run into raiders that are still roaming around the country ? Not to mention about hordes of infected that are still out there. Another problem - would Marleen actually give cure to everyone ? Even FEDRA agents ? What about various groups of raiders that are still roaming around ? I highly doubt it. Despite all her big talk about "restoring democracy and stuff" most likely scenario would be the rise of authoritarian "Firefly state" with Marleen at the helm- "If you want to get the cure - pledge your allegiance to us" type of deal. To actually distribute the cure Fireflies would need A LOT more manpower and WAY more firepower not to mention the trucks and fuel to be able to move around the country without issues and as far as I can tell - they have none of that. As soon as the word got out that they have the cure - Fireflies would be target Nr 1 to any and all raider groups that are out there not to mention FEDRA. Marleen's dream about "saving the world with the cure" is just that - a dream. There's no world left to save ! People are still there, but most of humanity is gone. There's no going back. Cure wouldn't change much. Even if it was possible to distribute the cure to everyone and prevent further infections - it would still take decades to reclaim all the territories humans used to inhabit not to mention there would be A LOT of wars among the humans for resources and land. TL;DR- Joel did the right thing by not letting his 2nd daughter die. Even IF cure would work- Fireflies wouldn't be able to distribute it.
Great point! 😊 It's such a tough situation start to finish. Someone else mentioned that we saw in the real world, with Covid, that it took so many resources that were actually available to us in order to widely distribute a vaccine. In this post-apocalyptic world? That sounds like a joke! I don't like the lying, but I think Joel definitely did the right thing in getting Ellie out of that situation. The mass killing was also... A lot, but it was what Joel had to do in the moment to get her out. As it's been said over and over... Morally super gray situation!
Like I said, there was no aspect of the Fireflies plan or actions that was right or correct. It was never going to work and their plan to 'save the world' with it even if it did work was a joke. Joel was right, right up to the point where he lied to Ellie. That was the only thing he got wrong.
@@Dark__Thoughts He was entirely in the right. The Fireflies were dreaming if they thought they could turn Ellie into a cure to save humanity. First off, saying she would've made the "right choice" if she knew was a lie because if they were sure of it they would've let her make the choice and not hidden it from her. They weren't honest with her that the cure wouldn't work. Had they told her her chances of surviving were zero and the chances of them turning her death knto a cure were also zero they knew shed say no. The experts in the first 2 episodes who spent decades studying cordyceps with all the technology and research available knew there was no cure, but this doctor 20 years into a plague that eradicated all higher learning when he was probably an intern thinks he knows better based on zero testing, had never even met her before, and is willing to sacrifice a little girl on a bad guess. Not to mention they have zero infrastructure to mass produce a cure even if they found one. And no means of safely storing it for enormous trips around the world not to mention no means of globally distributing it anyway. This was a cure that would save a handful of people at most and it wouldn't have worked in any case. Joel made the right choice, period. And your logic is junk.
You're missing the whole point. Whether or not the science was sound in reality or if they realistically could have saved the world is not the point. The point of the game and show was to create a situation where Joel would have to choose to save one person (his adopted daughter, after he already lost his daughter) or choose to save humanity. It's a morally ambiguous situation. I look at it this way, Marlene did the wrong thing for the right reasons, and Joel did the right thing for selfish reasons.
The Fireflies were trash. They flash banged them, gun whipped Joel & kept Ellie in the dark about what they were going to do. Marlene says she’s in Joel’s debt but has her men assault him further & escort him from the building. She knows the kind of guy he is, what did she think would happen? I understand why Joel lied, but I wish he hadn’t because I know where that’s headed. Unless they change some things from the game for season 2
Agreed. Such a morally gray and crappy situation for all parties involved - truly. I also think it's funny (ironically) that she promised Joel a fueled up car and all, and all he got was "I'm in your debt". She should have known better, honestly! I'm so excited to see what happens next! 😊
Remember, Ellie was only originally supposed to be with Joel for a trip across town, not across the country. She could not have anticipated their relationship growing like it did. Also remember, Marlene and the fireflies have sacrificed their lives to fight an authoritarian regime. She then took the newborn baby of her best friend and gave it to that same authoritarian regime because that is where she would be safest and not be harmed by Marlenes dangerous life as an outlaw. Marlene has shown time and again to be selfless. Joel, not so much.
Could you even allow a teenager with major psychological trauma and survivors guilt to make the decision to have that surgery? Seems extremely unethical.
My hot take is that Ellie is smart as hell… I bet that she could potentially contribute something to the science of a cure and/or vaccine - not just her body 😊 I cheated and looked ahead at what part II of the game entails and it seems to not have much to do with any cure talks as far as I saw… but in an even more hypothetical world where it still is possible to come up with a cure, I bet Ellie could make some serious contributions 😉
You will note, of course, that Marlene didn't give the slightest of dampened shits about getting Ellie's informed consent when they "didn't tell her anything, didn't cause her any fear". Why? Because the Fireflies didn't care if she'd consent; they'd have held her down like David did to take what they wanted if that's what they'd had to do.
The whole attempt was never in the game . In the game Joel is practically Superman. He has great hearing , great stamina, great aim. Joel knows Everything. In the show Joel is Mr. Average man. He is partially deaf in one ear. He has panic attacks. He has nightmares about "failing". He is slow. He is out of shape. He attempted self forever sleep. The difference between Game Joel and Show Joel is night and day. I have the Cure for this outbreak. We see Anna was in labor when she was infected and cut the cord on Ellie straight away. As such Ellie is immune. If Ellie was not gay and had a baby that child would be immune. So get a pregnant woman , when she goes into labor infect her just like Anna. Thirty or fourty of these cases and the next generation would be immune.
Informed consent is an interesting conversation with this episode. I think we all know that Ellie, if asked, would probably say yes. But is that consent? Really? First, she's a child. Yes she's smart and a badass, but she's underage. We don't generally let 15 year olds make life-and-death medical decisions as they are too young to enter into any contract legally and (as you pointed out) they don't even have a fully formed brain just yet. Also, she's clinically depressed and riddled with trauma. She lives in a horrific world and she has lost so much, she's been abused and gone through so many terrible things. The concept of suicide-by-doctor is much like a suicide-by-cop situation, taking it out of her hands but letting her feel useful and letting her go out trying to help people. But as you pointed out, these people are jumping to crazy conclusions. The show does a lot to paint the Fireflies as relatively incompetent. They know Joel and Ellie are coming and Ellie is humanity's best hope but they see a guy and girl walking near their base and throw a grenade at them? They know Joel is a killer and Marlene warns them to be careful 20 times but they walk him down the hall and poke him in the back with a rifle barrel so he can take them down, etc. There is no reason to think that a group whose very first thing they want to try on the ONLY immune person in the world is, "kill her and cut out her brain and we'll probably find a way to make this cure" with zero steps inbetween?! What?! But tell this heartbroken, beaten down, suicidal little girl that she can be a hero if she sacrifices herself and she might indeed say yes. Is that really consent though? Is she truly capable of consenting to die in this situation? Or should it be left up to her parents and the choice given to her when she's older, healed, and mature enough to evaluate the decision on her own and based on its merits without her trauma clouding that choice? Great show, great reactions, I'm honestly astounded that you don't have a hundred times the number of subs that you have so keep up the good work and keep putting out content and I guarantee you'll build a crowd over time. You have great insight and you are not afraid to relate to characters and show emotions and with your unique medical perspective it really makes for top tier reaction content. I hope you don't give it up or get discouraged! Keep up the great work!
You’re so right about all of the Ellie/informed consent/decision making capacity stuff. It’s SO complicated by all the trauma! And you make some excellent points about the incompetence of the fireflies… so even if they actually *could* figure out the cure, are they even competent enough to get it out to the entire planet? Seems implausible to me 😝 Also, thank you so so much for your kind comments! I’m having so much fun with this, and it’s letting me actually be creative! 😊 I hope it grows 😉 maybe it’s because I’m a newer channel? I dunno, but I really am enjoying doing this! 😊
In addition to informed consent, another medical principle is "first do no harm." Any doctor who would kill n people to save n+1 people should lose his medical license. To be really clear, any doctor who would kill his patient deliberately to save someone else should (a) lose his medical license and (b) go to jail or be executed for murder.
Completely agreed!!! My hot take is that Ellie should be allowed to make her own decision to sacrifice herself for the betterment of humanity (ie, finding a cure/vaccine). HOWEVER - I have this idea that she could contribute to the science of it all, not just contributing her physical body. She's an intelligent person, she could help develop the actual science behind it, and maybe find a way to not have to die in order to make a cure and/or vaccine a reality. At the end of the day, Ellie needs to have the opportunity to grow up, and contribute in her own way 😊 (and that means that she doesn't necessarily have to die for this....) Just my hot take! Also, from what some others have commented - this wasn't a medical doctor. He was a PhD biologist or something of the sort? Not sure if that's true, but, sounds like he didn't have a medical license to begin with 😝
@@JessTheMD Lovely to speak to you in person. I also have a big problem with the soldier who shot Sarah. If you murder innocent people just because some guy tells you to, you didn't have much morals to begin with. This relates to what Dr. Stanley Milgram called an agentic personality. Fun reaction! Thanks!
Agree with you on that point too. The morals seem to have gone out the window, especially when the apocalypse hit... 😔 Thanks so much for the support! ❤️
Lose his medical license? Go to jail? I don't know if you've noticed, but this is twenty years into the end of the world as we know it. I sincerely doubt medical licenses and jails factor into the situation.
Well, I got home from work a few hours ago completely exhausted and ready for a quick bite to eat, a shower and then sleep. I always like to scroll through RU-vid for a few minutes and, lo and behold, here is this new reaction channel and it’s a doctor reacting to one of my favorite shows. I’ll watch the first episode and then go to bed, I thought. Foolishly, as it turned out. It’s now 12:30 am, I just finished watching your reaction to episode 9 and I STILL haven’t eaten or showered. Thanks for an enjoyable evening while inadvertently helping me watch my waistline. Keep up the good work.😃🥱😴
Wow! Thank you so much! Feels like high praise 😊 Other reactions to come! And can't wait for season 2, whenever that comes! 😝 I hope you were able to get some rest!! 😊
Hahaha. I was a full time stay at home dad for eight years when my kids were little. Before that, and ever since then, I’ve been a professional chef. Key portions of my brain refuse to activate before that first sip of coffee in the morning.
As a Last of Us fan i feel like one of the most unrealistic aspects about the show and the game is how the Fireflies treat Ellie's immunity. There's no real sense of urgency to save humanity because the world's already gone, so they had all the time in the world to do tests on Ellie to try and find alternative ways of getting samples to make a vaccine or a cure, so them deciding right away that she needs to go into a surgery that is going to kill her and merely for a CHANCE of them finding a cure just feels...dumb and unprofessional in my opinion.
Like, they weren't even sure that the surgery would result in anything, they just went for it based on ''optimism'' and theories which is ridiculous especially when we're talking about the ONLY person that could potentially save humanity. And even if they managed to get something, with the limited amount of resources and doctors that they have, it would take years for them to actually manage to produce something, so why not just make tests on Ellie anyways?? I don't get it, it doesn't really make sense.
On a logical and medical standpoint it doesn't really make sense, but i do understand that in a writing and plot standpoint it makes sense cause you gotta create conflict and tension and everything.
I totally agree!! I've responded to other comments with this thought, but.. Ellie is a child right now. Let her grow up, let her become an adult that makes that decision. I fully believe she would/will sacrifice herself for the good of humanity. But maybe, as an adult, she'll ask more questions about the science of it all. Maybe she'd even help contribute to the science of it all. Maybe she'd help come up with a better plan. I don't know. But she's clearly a very intelligent person - she could do some amazing things, outside of just giving her body to science. Right?? 😊
