The M390 Delusion Has To Stop 

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I feel like a good portion of us, myself included, go through a sort of character arc when it comes to knives. We first start learning about knife steels, and we're okay with the "budget" stuff. Then our taste gets more and more expensive and soon we become steel snobs. Then we start realizing that knife steels are no where near as important as we thought it was, that there are so many other things that make a knife great and that it's not always about edge retention. Finally we make it to the end and have the same ideology MC explained in this video where you just buy what you like and let other people buy what they like. lol

You have no idea how happy i am to hear someone like you, who has influence, say that about Blade steel. There are people slamming Chris Reeve for not using M390 or S90V and completely overlooking the detail and craftsmanship. And, Oh yea....The ability to sharpen your own knife!

We have gone from utilizing how valuable something is to ourselves, to worrying about what value it has to someone else. This is YOUR collection or hobby, being bought with YOUR money. Who cares what someone else thinks, do it for whatever reason brings you joy, I have a buddy that is trying to buy 1 of every animal named knife (1 knife per animal), want to talk about a crapshoot of knives from a materialistic standpoint, but each one brings him the same joy so who cares what someone else thinks. Much Love MC , this video was 100% needed, we need to learn our self values again!!

This video has been much needed for many people, well said

People worrying about steel when they are opening Amazon boxes that has tape designed to be ripped open with our freaking hands. 🤣

That slam on the table was absolutely necessary and very well timed 😂 thank you for the refreshing take on the community, great content as always.

I agree, just bought a sebenza and it kinda sucks hearing people say “eww gross, $450 for s45vn” Shut up, maybe overpriced but it’s worth it to me

My value equation: Rants + Table Slams = High Quality Content.

I remember when s30v was all the rage and now a lot of people 💩 all over it like its "stainless steel" from a gas station knife. I prefer budget and mid range steels on my users like a lot of others here have said. Excellent video!

I love m390, I love my knives in m390, would I still love those same knives in a different steel? Absolutely, it’s the total package that generally makes a great knife. Having said that, I have fantastic luck with m390, I feel like it holds that “just sharpened” edge a bit longer, plus I don’t wait till it gets really dull before I touch it up and generally I get away with just a good strop with green compound.

I’m so glad someone is making a video covering this topic. One of my favorite knives uses 14c28n. It’s a pretty cool steel, and the knife is really well made and under $60

Proper heat treat matters more to me.

For me the ablity to sharpen easerly is imported to me. Tlhats why I love Curware, or Cpm 45. Thanks for putting blade steel in perspective.

My EDC is an S45VN Sebenza and I love the steel. It's really easy to strop it when it gets a bit dull instead of doing a full sharpening every time. However, I use M390 and 20CV at work. Three reasons for that: 1. I need the best edge retention possible because I can be at work for more than a month at a time, and my KME system stays at home. 2. I sweat like crazy, so corrosion is a concern with less stainless steels. 3. Toughness isn't much of a concern because we carry other tools for prying and cutting hard materials if needed. I don't particularly like sharpening M390 and 20CV though because it takes a lot longer than S45VN.

My personal favorite steels (that I actually own and use) are D2, 14C28N, CTSBD1, 154CM, s30v, and s35vn. I also haven't spent more than about $150 on a single knife.

I'm 58 been collecting since about 10 years old. Back when 440c was the steel , another good old one was ats34 for sure , keep up the good work .

I come from a kitchen knife collection background and I am just getting into folding knives. The thing that shocked me the most was people with this mentality (seems to be more prevalent in this community).

Many of the factors in steel choice is availability. Cold Steel switched from CTSXHP because S35vn was readily available.

After the cost of making the steel the cost of wear from machining and finishing the steel can add a lot to the end cost too. Stuff like Maxamet has you going through way more end mills, bits, and grit material than 440C. I can't remember if you mentioned heat treat (I'm sure you did) but a proper heat treat and whether or not you have to outsource to get it can make a noticeable difference in the cost of a blade. I've seen it mentioned that Sal Glesser said that maxamet is really rough on the machines and it's why Spyderco is one of the few companies working with it.

FINALLY. Someone daring to stand against the Super Steel Mafia. I salute you for your message, and your bravery for talking about this. I am of the mindset that a knife can't always be determined by certain factors. Different knives serve different uses. A C70 carbon steel traditional knife may be 1000 times more valuable to someone then some "Timascus framelock". Some people want corrosion ressistance as their main benifit in a steel. Some may want edge retention. Some may want a surgical steel that gets REALLY sharp, REALLY fast. Some may even want old school carbon. Like a knife itself, value is determined on what we choose to view as valuable. Nothing can ever change that. A SAK may be perfect to some folks, a Buck 119 to another. There is no super steel that will make a Case collector stop buying Case. A knife is only as valuable as we view it to be. Steel is just one of many factors to determine what we see as an ideal knife. Great video. I agree completely.

I'm going to add onto this, a knife with proper geometry for the task at hand in any left column steel is better than a knife with poor blade geometry for the task in the right column steels.

The more I use M390 the more I dislike it. I work landscape construction and beat on my knives a lot and ease of sharpening is very important to me. For me steels like S35VN and even 1095 have been awesome and way more preferable for the majority of tasks than M390 because they're way easier for me to sharpen.

As a US Marine, the steel only needs to get me through the mission. Today, working for the Postal Service, it really hasn't changed.

My favorite steel is Elmax it is fairly easy to sharpen and retains a good edge thanks bro😁👍

Sorta new here, read a lot about metals already, etc and this video helped me be more decisive and happy with the choices I make as far as the overall knife and the intended uses. I was getting too stuck on steel only so to speak. Thanks!

My favorite steels are the more "midrange" steels. 154,s35,s45. Thanks for the video.

Finally something I can send to my “non-knife” buddies that have knife questions about what to buy. Lol

I've found your video simply brilliant!! Thanks a lot for your time and for sharing this valuable information with us.

Thank you for this. My favorite non 20cv/M390/204P knives have steel in K390, XHP, LC200N, and S110V. The knives I have in 20CV, I would have bought them if they came in many other steels. And all of the above perform about the same in practical use.

Great vid on the psychology of knife collecting, and how we think and compare, particularly since most collectors don't use or sharpen a blade enough to realize advantages of one steel over another. Again, it's a mind game that's likely at the heart of collecting most anything. Careful that we don't fall prey to our own over thinking, comparing, and virtual "slicing and dicing." 👍😁🗡️

My most carried knife (I carry it every day) is a GEC slip joint with 440c. I use it a ton and love the 440c because it’s easy to maintain and stainless. You don’t need to have a “super steel” to have a super steel, if you get my meaning. Great video MC. Very much needed.

Awesome video. Thank you. I was just starting to fall for this steel hype. Luckily I only chased one premium steel knife so far. It's in the mail. Hopefully you've saved me a few bucks! I should watch this video every once and a while to save me. Thanks MC!

I agree with this totally! There is an over emphasis on blade steel in the knife collecting community. I have folders with all types of blade steel. I do take note of the steel used for the blade, but If I like the knife I’ll buy it regardless of what blade steel it has.

Ive been "collecting" and "using" knives for awhile now . I think ive been through it all and went throu personal phases where i thought things where better than others ...my benchmade McHenry Williams in ats34 has held up like nobodys business and the old boy is still rockin cant believe it !

This is actually a great problem to have. I still remember the days when there was essentially no choice when it came to blade steel. Personally, I'm so sick of M390/20CV/204P. Ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance have become my preferred features in a steel. I'm a big fan of Vanax. Sadly it's one of the hardest to come by and could probably be considered Supremium™.

Thanks for your insight regarding these important issues.

This a a great point MC most people need to use their knives and determine which steels work best for them. They need to look at their daily use and determine which attributes are best for them. For a hard working tradesman who is hard on his knives M390 is an awful choice as it will most likely chip but Cruwear or 3v may be perfect for them. Another factor is who makes it, how are their heat treats, geometry and ergonomics. An 8cr at 8 thousandths behind the edge will cut M390 at 40 thousandths all day.

The most overrated knife spec: blade steel. The most underrated knife spec: lock bar access.

I bought a knife made of M390 because I didn’t want it to rust on the boat, and I wanted a nice knife. I had no idea it was a premium steel, and that there was such controversy over these things... lol.

Thanks. I agree with your logic. I'm amused by "perceived" value of different knife steels. For example, folks who live in the desert and value corrosion resistance, or those who value toughness, but would never use the timascus draped collector for those days of fence repair. EDC and daily user work knives definitely require a different mindset (and steel) than used on a $1200 Shirogorov.

I usually think, "is it full tang? Can it baton?". All knives < Full Tang < Böker Mermaid

154CM baby!!! The N690CO (*NOT N690) on my Steel will Gekko Mini is amazing, it takes a laser edge relatively easily and has good edge retention. I’ve got D2 on a freakin $550 Medford Infraction! Who cares! Haha.

I definitely like corrosion resistance over mostly everything else, I can deal with sharpening but having to clean up rust is a pain. so most of my favorite steels are n690, s35vn, m390, cpm3v(coated), and vg-10.

I feel much better now about my sickness. Thank you.

When I bought my first Microtech (Ultratech) earlier this month, I went out of my way to get one in Elmax (rather than M390), because I wanted the extra toughness.

Blade shape and geometry have more to do with function than anything else. Steel choice is about longevity, environment, and ease of use/preferences. Just my 2 cents. Like the vid. Long time user and collector

Thank you. It's not more valuable if it takes much longer to sharpen and maintain but holds the edge just as long.

Great video! Loved its clarity and simplicity.

I in the past I bought into the steel hype. Don’t get me wrong there are steels that are better than others. As I learned more about knives , sharpening , grinds and use I now buy a knife on geometry first then ergos and design. In the last year I have bought a few knives in 8cr because it was well built and I liked the design. Quess what ? They work great at cutting stuff. Maybe they dull a little quicker than more premium Steel but it’s not like you use it once and it won’t cut through hot butter like some act. Buy what you like !

I've always thought two kinds of ways about this. First, I remember when bark river "accidentally" had a knife or two that was labeled 20CV, but in reality, was almost certainly A2 - honest mistake or not, it makes you wonder. I know there's been other instances of things like that but that's what comes to mind. Far and away the easiest way to spot something like that is corrosion resistance, and that's what tipped that off, but for most stainless folding knives, that wouldn't be an option. Say s30V vs M390 - most of us aren't in a corrosive enough environment that we'd really notice that. Long and short, I think steel is so incredibly overhyped in knives it's ridiculous, but I also wonder how much anyone would even know the difference between s30v and m390 if it wasn't labeled. Yes I know half the people reading this are sharpening experts and know how different steels feel under their stones, etc... but I wonder if you were given 5 unmarked blades and 5 steels and not told which was which how accurate your assessment would be. And people reading this are in the 1% of the knife world that know about this stuff. It is amazing how much we trust the maker to give us the advertised steel, especially when that information is almost impossible for us to verify in many instances on the end-user level. The other thing that's probably even more important - the material makeup/chemical composition of the steel is one thing - that's what most people look at when they see steels and try to differentiate performance differences. In truth, probably even more important is the heat treat of those steels. All S30v is not created equal. All m390 is not created equal. All D2 is not created equal. I would rather a company work exclusively with a given steel and extensively push the boundaries of what's possible with heat treat and cryo than have them jump into some new wonder steel and not do that work. Heat treat is so incredibly important, and not nearly enough questions are asked about it. Most people see m390 and think that's that - they don't even stop to ask where it came from and who heat treated it, and how extensive the manufacturer's experience with that steel is. There's no real point to all of this. Good vid - got me reminiscing about this stuff.

Great take on steel choices. I'm partial to steels that can hold an edge but not a PIA to sharpen. Thank you.

I really enjoyed the interactive aspect to this video. Forces me to think. That’s always a good thing

This was made VERY apparent for me here recently. I work at a smoke shop here in the Nashville area, and had this older gentleman come in. We shot the shit for about 15-20 minutes and noticed a Microtech Untratech on his belt, he also pulls out a TwoSun, and my god I have to have one... Titanium frame lock with 14c28n. Freaking perfect

I met a young woman who realized through seeing my Spyderco on my pocket I was a knife collector . She had started her own collection and wanted me to come by and see her knives . Her eyes lit up showing me her collection . I smiled and complimented her new found hobby. Her knives were all flashy Chinese knives. What brings you JOY is what's important ! What worked for me as a truck Driver cutting rope , cardboard , Plastic and whatever ? VG10 Spyderco was my favorite work knife .A Damn good knife .Great working steel .

Thanks for the informative videos. I appreciate it, especially as a newbie to the knife world.

M390 is overhyped, and pushed to market by non knife users demands; S90V is tougher and has way better edge retention. Folding cutlery, being primarily for … cutting, I think edge retention and edge stability should be the focus. S90V > M390 and really should be the celebrated “super steel”. If you can put corrosion resistance aside, then tool steels offer a much better combination of edge stability, toughness, and edge retention. We as a community always have to be chasing the newest trends, especially in steels. We have had access to some of the greatest performing steels on folders, but we still need something new. Also…Geometry cuts.

Great video, thanks for posting! I've owned a lot of knives with different steels and I've come to the realization that other factors that have nothing to do with the blade are equally or even more important to me. For example, how thick and ergonomic the handle is, the weight and how it feels in the hand. As for the steels I've come to often like more "budget" steels because it's easier for me to maintain. I've been willing to spend a LOT more on knives with "budget" blade steel just based on how well the knife was made and how it feels when using it everyday and maintaining it. In my opinion, if you want to be happy with your knife then it's more about the experience and feel while actually using it rather than its materials or numbers on a paper.

I am having a Production Knife Made right now and I thought The cost would go down considerably if I went from M390 to say 154cm! It went down literally less than two dollars a knife! I don’t know how companies can sell two knives exactly the same but then charge over $100 for the more premium steel when I know it cost them maybe two bucks! Crazy

I get a power strop, hard leather wheel, mounted to a bench grinder with white buffing compound and man its impossible to have a dull anything, it mirror polishes all steel and i love my 20cv kershaw. Keeps it hair splitting sharp in 10 seconds per side

You are so correct! I felt myself getting sucked down the steel-lined rabbit hole. Then one day, I was making some feather sticks. And what steel was I using? A fixed blade with its cheap, outdated, and antiquated 1095. The other thing that occurred to me was that most of my folding knives are budget to mid-quality steel. But I have one S30V, one BD1N, one K390, and one El Max. And what did I realize? Other than the K390 (which is tiny and lives in my 5th pocket), the other knives with above-average steel sit in a drawer, shiny and unmarred. Why? So I started carrying the premium steel knives in rotation. So far, no conclusions compared to budget steel knives in daily use. But I’m out of the rabbit hole and feeling much better.

Glad I'm watching this video. Glad I'm subscribe to you. Saved me a lot of money. Thanks MC.

I have various steels and i am quite happy with m390 as daily user. doesn't rust, holds and edge reasonably well and when it comes to sharpening... well, i use diamond stones and they sharpen everything at the same speed.

I realized this conundrum when I was SHOCKED at the price an otf had with a "budget steel" blade. Then I saw a break down of that very same otf and realized just how complex it was to make an otf. So yeah, especially as someone knew to the knife hobby, I was most certainly a "victim" of this mentality.

As a metallurgist I can confirm you can turn any steel to cow poo! Also a good heat treatment can develop exceptional properties. So the steel really is not everything. The art matters.

love my 154cman s30v knives, but not just because of the steel, the knives feel great, carry well and iget tons of use and enjoyment out of them

Got a pretty good Black Friday deal on my first Kalashnikov. I was waiting to "pull the trigger" until the sales started. It's D2 which is good enough for me. I told my wife between watching your videos and cruising the web for deals I should have a good Christmas... everyone else gets whatever's left.

Incidentally, my favorite in that whole lineup at the beginning is that wonderful, very inexpensive QSP Penguin in denim micarta.

This is my favourite one of your "commentary on the knife community" videos ever. I love the pieces of paper and how they were used, as well as the points you were making As a guy who genuinely prefers s45VN to 20CV in almost all use cases, I'm definitely going to like this video regardless, but I still think it was *especially* well done :)

I have no problem with D2 especially on my budget knives that are $20-60 it’s great. But when I see a knife $150 using D2 it’s hard for my brain to get over the fact that I feel it should be less since all my D2 knives are cheaper.

If the knife is used hard, the edge on a 20cv knife will last for weeks, a D2 will dull in hours. In a hard-use environment, like a fishing boat or hunting camp, steel type matters more.

I enjoy checking out different materials. In truth I am not a heavy user so 440A is fine for my needs.That said I love the variety of materials in my collection.

D2 is a very good steel, I prefer it over all of the "mid range" steels

VG 10 is my favorite steel because its so easy to sharpen that the edge retention does not matter to me. Plus its very corrosion resistant.

I know I’m a little late to the game on this one but I got some reasonable advice from my uncle several years back before he passed away, god rest his sole!! He worked for GE Aviation as an engineer for about 30 years and in doing so he worked with a lot of high end alloys. So I had a conversation with him about some of those alloys and he told me that 95% of people carrying pocket knives with higher end “super alloy” blade steel were never going to see enough of a difference to make a difference. Well I have to say after years of carrying knives I think he might be right!! After about the 14C28N line I can’t really work a knife hard enough to tell a real measurable difference. Now I’m talking mostly about poket sized folders and some of your every day carry sized fixed blades, cause I actually carried a fixed blade for a long time as well. Now you might be able to tell a difference if you really aim to go out and sort of destructively test knives until they fail or at least the usable part of the cutting edge fails!! But let’s be real 95% of us who edc a knife don’t have that kind of time or for that matter the desire to go to that kind of extreme!! I mean in terms of knife steel I absolutely love a good heat treated cpm154 and I can say without hesitation it has done everything I needed it to do. Don’t get me wrong I own some knives in 20CV, S30V, M390, and honestly my 14C28N and CPM154 knives have held right there with them for most standard edc tasks.

I own knives with... S35vn S30v 20cv M390 vg10 and I've had various Aus-8 & 8cr13mov i like the 20cv for beefier blades (halftrack in my case) but more than that VG10 from spyderco is a fantastic user steel. S35vn is highly subjectable to the heat treat and stock thickness from what can tell. good video S30v is basically a gateway steel. fantastic as well though.

When I see the debates on steel I am reminded of the great Stereo "Spec" wars of the 1970s. IT was all about the "specs" and not much about the overall design aspects. Many people would be hard pressed to hear the difference between various components, but the purists would test some big brand name and declare it better. And this is they way I see steel. For most people the steel should take a back seat to the overall design, ergonomics, operation, and esthetics. I have a $20 Ganzo Firebird G-lock that I enjoy using more than some knives that cost 10 times as much. The steel is 440C and I would declare that I could go 99 days out of 100 and never feel like the knife should have better steel. Now my EDC is a Bugout aluminum but I would rather have had a "lesser" steel at a lower price, but that is the way the knife comes. I prefer it over the Ganzo because it is so light and thin that it disappears in my pocket, while the Ganzo feels heavy and bulky by comparison. I could have been happy with VG 10 if they would have offered the Bugout with aluminum scales at a price maybe like $160.

This… this video and your character and personality coming through every second of this video just put you over the top as my favorite knife you tuber and arguably favorite content maker overall 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔪🔪🔪🔪🤦🏼‍♂️✊✊✊✊✊👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🥃🥃🥃🤟🏼 thank you for being you, metal complex… and thank you for saying what needs to be said in this community and many others related to this community

I think that knife design and blade geometry are more important than blade steel.

Thanks for this! On Thanksgiving day I was just asking myself some of these questions. Does it really really really matter which steel is used on a knife that I like? To a degree yes but a much larger degree it really doesn't matter to me. Does it rust? That matters a lot to me. Can I sharpen it to a good edge? That matters to me. How long does that edge last? It matters some but not that much because I don't really use my knife hard. Plus, I actually enjoy sharpening a knife! M390 . . . I like. S35VN . . . I like. D2 . . . I don't like. All the rest of the steals I really don't know that much about it I don't have any knives with those steals. So I really like this video!!

I'm in the Great NW and use my knives hard daily. Delica 4 k390 is the best I've used and mostly carry. In the winter and rain I use a 940 or 470-1 with s30v. I almost have no blade left to sharpen on the 940 I've used it so much for years and years. S30v works great and lasts forever after a couple good sharpenings.

I have been collecting high dollar knives for well over 20yrs. Still catch myself doing it today. Went to pull the trigger in a knife the other day and didn’t because it was S45VN and not CPM20CV. I remember when S30v was only available on the highest knives. When VG10 was an outstanding steel. Even regular D2 was great. What we need to understand is that they still are. Unless it’s Magnacut that’s what lightsabers are made of!!!

I can tell you, s30v steel with a good heath treat like that cryo treatment that Paul bos seems to use with some Buck knifes stil makes it a pretty amazing knife steel, what manifacturers do with the stuff ( heath treat, cutting geometry) is more important to me than what the exact steel formulation is.

I like damascus and the Sandvik steel. Although somewhat dependent on blade thickness, they take a scalpel like edge. My D2 blades needed tp have the edges thinned to get there. I would trade some edge retention for ease of sharpening.

I own a Sitivien st995 in m390 and it was only 80 bucks. It’s an excellent, premium feeling knife so that price point of $80 definitely opened my eyes

Agree with you here, even if you just consider edge retention steel does not matter as much as people would think. I think Outpost 76’e edge testing on cardboard has shown that even in terms of edge retention having a “good” steel doesn’t necessarily mean good edge retention. I think that he has found some knives with m390 are outperformed by knives in steels like Aus-8 and 9cr18mov depending on who made the knife. Quality of workmanship and consistency of manufacture matters. There is a reason that civivi dominates the budget end of the spectrum, and it isn’t the blade steels that they use.

It always kinda annoys me when people rank steels based on edge retention.. and they're the same people with expensive sharpening systems which completely defeats the point

My "surgical steel" case Sodbuster brings me as much joy as any of my folders with a "supersteel".

You're right steel isn't everything. The heat treat matters too.

If you look at knife stores online they categorize everything based off steel. My guess is for someone just starting out in the knife world (like me) they see “premium” and are more likely to buy it since it offers a better sounding package.

So.. as a guy that started collecting knives with different Kershaw, CRKTs, AUS8 Cold Steel and a ATS34 Spyderco. I didn't care about steel until RU-vid. I still don't really care. Fact is my favourite knife ever is/was my Kershaw one ton in 8cr. Why? Every month we break down a 40' container of shipment. When the knife feels dull, I "strop" it back right there on the side of the container. It's frikkin comfortable and I can keep going longer and faster than someone with premium steel. Highest I go now is 14c28n for a working knife. Cutting cardboard, box straps and popping staples, even scraping grouting. I've cut more cardboard in 1 month than most knife guys in their lifetime 😉 I have premium steels but like the majority, tends to be pocket jewelry

After my comment the other day, I love seeing this. Much needed.

The only significant downfall to d2 is the fact its not stainless. With a coating many companies can do it very well

Favorite budget- D2. Favorite mid range- nitro v, Favorite premium- M4 and cru wear. Properly heat treated D2 is amazing.

I'm so sick of m390 and it's analogs... its everywhere...

In my real world experience from breaking tips off a 940 s30v digging steel cases out of an ar15 chamber to skinning a dear with s35vn and everything in-between.. my 3 favorite steels are 20cv in a sawtooth working edge, and s35/45cv for a mirror finish. As of right now, my WE ELEMENTUM 20CV and CIVIVI QUIBIT 14c28n are holding up the best, even over my sebenza.

ALL FACTS. THANK YOU!!!!!!

The budget steels are just fine for use I like 1095 and other carbon steels work great. I do have some Spyderco knives with Cru wear S30V and other steels. Though I prefer 1095 carbon steel like GEC traditional folders and custom 1095 , L6 carbon steel fixed blades. I like steel I can touch up easy and sharpen instead of edge retention and more difficult sharpening .

I owned a ZT with S30V and posted it once and got a lot of negative comments about how there are better steels. When I bought that knife it was top of the line and I have abused that knife and it still cuts well and is in good condition.

I was pretty excited to grab the s45vn Malibu purely because it was different. I have some m390 and s90v blades but my s30v knives get used the most