the media is wrong about k-pop 

The whole "you just want to date them" is especially frustrating for us international fans not just the assumption that we are all interested in idols in that way but the suggestion that we are so delusional that we don't understand that the idea that we'll date a celebrity from a foreign country who we in all likelyhood have a language barrier with them along with a cultural one is as improbable as winning the lottery, probably more improbable I assure you I am well aware that I could have Korean language and culture zapped into my brain and wake up in Korean tomorrow and I still wouldn't have a 1% chance with any memeber of BTS. That's not why I listen to them!

I really hate the whole "you just wanna date them" thing because no I don't. I am a 14 year old minor. Most of the groups I'm a fan of are fully grown adults who are around 10 years older than me. That would just be weird and really wrong.

Clickbait journalist logic be like: San from Ateez has a blonde streak in his hair in their music video for Answer. You know who else has a blonde streak? That's right, Anna from Frozen. The reason why Anna has it is because Elsa struck her in the head when she was young. Therefor, San's hair is a subtle cry for help because he is physically abused by his managers. It's so disgusting to me how people will hyper-analyse everything about an idol, from hair color, to the their laugh to them being shy in an English interview in a desperate attempt to find signs of suffering. It's so dehumanizing and very "white savior"

Anti-Kpop locals: They arent perfect! They don’t want you to see their imperfections!! *kpop artist talks about struggles with mental heath, show very human sides to themselves* Anti Kpop Locals: Theyre faking it!! It’s not true!

If I had a dollar for everytime I saw a kpop fan talk about their idols being mistreated, I'd be rich. I hate that non-kpop fans think we don't care about what's going on in the industry and are being complicit in everything. We are literally the most outspoken people when it comes to mistreatment and the "dark side of kpop." I'll use one example of the group NCT. SM entertainment treats the nct members terribly. They overwork taeyong and mark and mistreat the non Korean members, especially the Chinese ones. I'm pretty sure every nctizen hates SM with a burning passion and we all constantly talk about how terrible they treat their artists. Just bc I like the group and the members does NOT mean I agree with how SM treats them. This is also the case with Blackpink. Nobody hates YG more than blinks, I swear. They are an awful company that treats their artists horribly, especially their female ones. Every kpop fan hates YG and are constantly talking about blackpink's mistreatment

Sending this to my non kpop friends who think kpop is disturbing while blasting Kesha.

I always get uncomfortable when Jonghyun, Sulli, and Goo Hara are only brought up for shock factor or to show a point.

It disguts me that they use names of idols who have passed away as part of their agenda to prove something to us. It's disrespectful. No one has the right to assume things about the reasons someone took their own life. They are more than just names. They're people.

Generalizing the whole kpop industry is what pisses me off the most

It's kind off insane that vice showed monsta x and monbebes giving testimonies about their music and their fan experiences and yet still managed to include none of it in their actual conclusion of 'the dark side'. Why include them at all if you are not going to listen to what they have to say. Also feel bad for the monbebe who talked about really personal and vulnerable issues that were eventually disregarded and talked over. That;s straight up disrespectful But, I am really glad that we have videos like these that at least show a more nuanced side of the conversation. Looking forward to part 2 :) Thanks bby gang!

I actually like Seokjin number 6 most. No hate on the others tho, respect them too

"only now starting to expose" Nah, they've been exposin it's just the first an American has heard it

I'm glad you're forcing yourself to watch these "documentaries" and dissecting them for us, so I don't have to watch that garbage. Thanks for taking one for the team.

What pisses me off the most is that locals will present this to kpop fans like its some unknown evidence to us and they are the ones all knowing But the thing that really gets me is how this leads to them straight up dehumanizing the idols and the fans. For other industries when you get corrupt and messed up elements there is usually sympathies spared examples like the ppl you mentioned. but for kpop idols they do this condescending pity and saying they have no free will they are robots and will just insult the idols and give them no respect?? They think they care but they just end up saying some really messed up shit about the people. The problem with this dark side of kpop narrative is not just its peoples excuse to reject kpop but it gives locals this weird ass idea to insult the supposed victims they care about and INSIST they have no free will and some adding racist comments at the same time. Edit: Also i wanna add that western celebrities can have really tough work schedules and also have mental illness problems but it wont be a reason to stop consuming what they sell or do and generally gets reported in a neutral way that doesnt attack the industry they are apart of or sometimes leaning in positivity of their devotion and hard work. and ive seen some of these celebrities even have reports of them overworking to the point of passing out on stage. But when it comes to idols they are ALL being ABUSED. What my point is western celebrities again get sympathy and they are praised for their work ethic but when kpop idols share this its suddenly extremely negative and only negative things.

What absolutely kills me is the very real issues faced by Goo Hara, Sulli and Jonghyun are brushed aside in favor of fitting them in a cookie-cutter "dark side of kpop" narrative. The western media says that the kpop industry dehumanizes idols, but in reality it's the western media doing the dehumanization. Western media looks at them and sees "kpop idol commited suicide" and takes it as a cue to write one more "dark side of kpop" thinkpiece with zero regard for the deceased person, their life and what they faced. Western media reduces their entire existence to "kpop-bad" and then with all the hypocrisy of a white savior goes on to say kpop industry is dehumanizing. They are individual humans with individual lives and problems that they have to face, not just another kpop idol interchangeable with any other.

Whenever there's an issue that includes an idol, it automatically becomes a "kpop" issue when if you think about the issue at hand, it's more a societal or cultural issue that is going on. It's seen in any industry really where if one person does an illegal or morally wrong thing and is a part of niche group or industry, that negative connotation stays with that industry. People need to learn more rather than on the surface details.

the point haeryun kang made at 27:32 about politeness and humanity in english interviews was so poignant i immediately had to rewatch it like five times to fully appreciate how succinct it is. i never thought about it that way but now that i do everything makes sense. variety shows are incredibly important to the pubic 'image' of an idol that western journalists or the average person just are not aware of and that can sway their perception immensely. in the west, artists' connections with the public are usually either through more formal interviews or performances on stage to a crowd. and because of a myriad of factors, those artists get to act more 'real' in those spaces. but kpop idols often are not. most idol performances are incredibly flashy and well-rehearsed, and often act as how new fans get drawn in. but where do those fans go after watching the performances? to variety shows. and on said shows those idols get to be goofy and show their 'real' selves that so many fans connect with. (i know for me run bts! is one of my favorites parts about being an army and once i was able to come down from an anxiety attack just by watching bts gayo episodes). but if you're a westerner, unless you talk to other fans, you probably wouldn't come to those variety shows without doing some digging, which many journalists just don't want to do. so where do they look instead? english interviews. and like haeryun kang points out, of course many idols are going to be 'stiff' during those interviews. not only are there different politeness standards, but if you're put in a situation where you're supposed to try to hold a formal conversation in a language you're not fluent in, of course you're going to look a little uncomfortable and not be able to say much. and the combination of perfected performances and 'stiff' english interviews can often be all a westerner needs to write idols of as 'robotic.' but if they watched just 5 minutes of a variety show -- where the idols are comfortable with the language and basically just get to hang out with their members and play games -- then their 'uber-perfect image' is shattered and replaced with a far more nuanced look at these people who are incredibly skilled performers, but still can act goofy and 'real' and 'human'. (thank you for coming to my ted talk and incredible video once again bby gang! :D)

Honestly the last point you made is so true and it often annoys me. A lot of people don't realize that surprise surprise, not everyone speaks English fluently and when you are in a situation where you're not exactly comfortable with the language, you are obviously going to act less comfortably and maybe a bit more uptight. But also, they are being flippin POLITe wouldn't you want that when you are interviewing someone anyway.

i think i have the greatest issue with the implication that sexual harrassment is caused by mental illness, but overall i hate how Vice and many other western documentary creators / news platforms love to view k-pop and its fans through this lense. i have the feeling that this image of 'interchangeable', 'fabricated', 'robotic' kpop idols is an extension of how western white people view Asians as a whole. i was told similar things in the past about the artists i listened to, back when i was a fan of Japanese metal and then there's of course the racist image that all East Asians look the same. i hadn't even considered the difference in standards for politeness / attitudes which was mentioned in the last part of the video, but that's a good point as well.

I wouldn't call BTS "perfect" - they got flaws and they share them with their fans. That's why I like them

I am still convinced that the main reason media is portraying K-pop (and world music for that matter) that way is 1)xenophobia and 2) powerplay. The western music industry has been losing influence and importance steadily and the emergence of K-pop as a global phenomenon that they are not controlling scares the beejezus out of them therefore they are doing everything they can to discredit it

Othering of non-western art in the western sphere is such an annoying concept. I had a presentation on the post-colonial critical lense on the current art Canon in the west. It's funny how you almost have to be different in order to fit into the Western scene. You can't be just as good or better at what the west is doing. It has to be tied to some other culture, it has to be 'exotic' and different. Many African artist are rejected to present themselves in Western galleries, because they aren't 'exotic' enough, they aren't what Africa is supposed to be. When many western shows and reporters, hopped on the bts hype at the beginning, you could see the same. They didn't really treat them as individuals, more like a gimmick, a sensation, that they didn't think would stay. They thought of them as the short thrill of something 'new' and different. Only now we see more and more networks in America recognizing them as artists, that will stick around.

the not drinking, smoking dating is so funny to me. They obv don't know ANYTHING about the industry at all. My cousin was a trainee for one of the companies and seriously. They're all smoking, drinking and dating FYI. They just don't broadcast it

The saddest thing is that you know who's gonna watch this? The people who already know this, not the people who need to see this.

"Whats your definition of human?" Chills...

agust d2 is coming >:)

You should've name it Dark Side of K-pop: the truth just to clickbate locals, they need it👏

Something I always find strange is how the people covering the "dark side of kpop" almost never mention the music itself. Is it so hard to believe that fans are there for the music, not for the pretty faces? Is it so hard to believe that, by doing a simple google of the lyrics, you'll find that many kpop songs discuss the very things that their audience is suffering through? I can't say how many times I've found comfort in one of Stray Kids' songs, which are more often than not my form of therapy. I'm sure everyone else here has also found comfort in their favorite group's songs. And it's so interesting how I can't see their faces when I listen to them on Spotify.

they just don’t like seeing poc successful in the west💅🏻

Even as a Monsta X fan, I was never able to watch that full documentary as their reporting bugged me so much... seeing that footage made me realize that that footage was filmed at my monsta x concert. Which confuses me on the interviewers persistence in a negative view of the idols because... they were so comfortable and such sweethearts on stage during that

Burning sun is not a kpop issue. Its not a scandal. Is a world wide trafficking crime. Ugh this documentary is so frustrating .

Yes! I've been a fan of kpop for 10 years, and you have no idea how many times people have found out and been like "but do you know how messed up the kpop industry actually is?" after having seen one of those "investigative" videos or articles. I'm just gonna send them the link to this video from now on. I'm so tired of hearing stuff like that.

Why does she call it ‘kpop burning sun scandal’ apart from having some idols involved, burning sun wasn’t linked to kpop at all, in fact there are far more politicians, police in that scandal. It makes it seem that burning sun is a result of kpop which is just incorrect and weird

I mean really, most of the structural problems of kpop remind me of the structural problems of Ballet companies: impossible beauty standards, overworking, power abuse scandals etc. But who cares about changing those things? people who like ballet and dancers themselves. There are so many industries like this, but outsiders will only look into it so they can shame the people who enjoy the art produced by said industries. They go with this saviour complex when they don't even know the names of the artists they are supposedly defending

People just wanna hate Kpop

it's scary how one doesn't even have to look deep to be able to recognize how most of those kpop "critiques" tie so well into the prevalent racist narrative against asians. the same old accusations of being robot-like, soulless, passive and subservient, indistinguishable and replaceable. all too painfully familiar.

"what is your definition of human" DAMN

Locals pointing out all the bad things in kpop to kpop stans is like walking into someone's house for the first time and pointing out a huge hole in their roof. Honey... I live here... Trust me, I know. Edit: Wording, lol

As a Shawol who ults Jonghyun, I just want to thank you for speaking about him in a respectful way and for providing the appropriate warnings beforehand. I know you're a Kpop fan and you made this to debunk a lot of common misconceptions about Kpop, including how the media treats his life, but a lot of Kpop fans don't seem to care about Shawol's mental well-being or respecting his memory. Not using him for shock value should be a bare minimum requirement but more often than not that's what people do. You also expressed a lot of the things the media gets wrong about him that frustrate me to no end but I feel powerless to stop. So thank you for making me feel represented.

It's kinda insane how these stereotypes about Kpop got introduced to me by the actual Kpop stans themselves when I first started listening to BTS in 2015. Doesn't it show how deeply rooted these misconceptions are and how much work we have to do to clear them up? Elliot you should have staned earlier 😭

lmao flex on the vice documentary by using kpop music in the outro

I've been realizing that the "both can be true" concept is impossible for some people to digest because it doesn't tell them what to do; stan or unstan. They for real just want to be told, they don't want to make a decision on their own and "live in their truth". They don't. They for real don't. That is the conclusion I'm drawing. Anyway, enjoyed the vid very much.

Using people who tragically passed away as an argument and completely disregarding their life stories, struggles and emotions to brand it as "KPOP=BAD" is the most disgusting thing. And it's also shutting any potential discussion about actual problems that played big parts in those stories like sexism or approach to mental health in Korea. Let these poor people rest and stop rewriting their life.

Damn the media so fixated on bringing down kpop and people are so focused on the kpop industry that they don't even realize just how DARK the American music industry is in comparison 👁️

YES THAT'S IT, finally someone said it. Everything has a dark side. Anime has a dark side, I like it. Television has a dark side, many people consume it. Hell even gourmet cooking and all that chef exploitation have a dark side but we like good food. You just have to be aware and try to inform yourself to know how to support in a good way

I'm so thankful for your channel, as a leftist who still enjoys casual kpop music I've often felt judged and guilty and I hate how some of the bredtube claims to be "deeply into research, studies and facts" but then pulls out the same three points I've been hearing about since 2016. Thank you for reassuring me I can still enjoy the media while being critical about it and point out the abuse happening. It should be logical to do so but kpop fans get treated harsher because of the few bad apples who go overboard.

That "shock value" section of the VICE video is what puts me off the most. They can disregard fans, ignore the facts, and contradict themselves as much as they want, but when they started using those idols' suicides to their advantage, I was so disturbed. Hara, Sulli, and Jonghyun did NOT suffer as martyrs for truth, testifying against social constructs until their last breath for these people to devalue their contributions and chalk them up to be "another tragedy of K-pop." It's so ignorant and disrespectful. I audibly gasped when you said they actually used FOOTAGE OF A FUNERAL?? in their "documentary." I haven't even seen it, but I can guess it was Jonghyun's, since his funeral was broadcasted more than the other two's. Overall, this is more corrupt of them to try to gain clout and sympathy from viewers by exploiting their suicide than the industry which supposedly caused their deaths.

I also hate how they act like we don’t know all this messed up stuff is happening. Like, we can be aware that the industry is god awful and screwed beyond belief and still enjoy the music. They act like it’s a big break through when we’ve known this stuff for years. Stop talking to us like we’re children, we knew this before you did.

Thank you. I've unsubbed from several channels I formerly respected due to these "dark side of Kpop" videos. Sure it sounds mysterious and interesting, but is no better than tabloid "journalism." The cringe is real.

I'm a 15 year old male, now I don't get those comments like "you just want to date them" I usually get "your gay"...

Yeah, I'm in my 40's and am a huge fan of Red Velvet and Mamamoo. I don't want to date them and I know they're not perfect. Honestly, more than anything I'd just want to hang out and have a beer with them and eat Korean BBQ, and do all the other things you do with a close friend/family. I think of them kind of like little sisters that entertain me and make me smile, more than anything. I'm very proud of them and I enjoy watching their journey as artists and human beings. So, yeah, when somebody tells this kind of narrative that gets the fandom completely wrong, they're getting one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle in the wrong place. After all, K-Pop wouldn't exist without the fans, so we are just as responsible for what it is - good and bad - as the artist and companies themselves. Doesn't this journalist think that's a kind of important thing to get right?

One of the main reasons I love bts is that they are very vulnerable, raw, and honest with their emotions, struggles, etc. and they are willing to speak candidly about them so that they may be able to help other people going through the same issues. Sure I find them handsome but I wouldn’t be this invested in them and their music if the music wasn’t quality and they weren’t good and honest people. I’ve always said I don’t want them to put on a persona for us. I just want them to be themselves and do what makes them happy and that makes me happy.

I can say that as a stan of multiple SM groups as well as BTS that kpop fans are the first people to "expose" companies for their mistreatment. There are always protests and mass email campaigns happening to defend artists and fans are extremely dedicated in wanting SM to own up to their behavior. No fan ignores the shading things companies/the Korean media and public do because we want the best for the people that we have supported for years and who we know are extremely talented and good people. also who tf wants lee sooman's weird AI idols? do they think fans are that stupid

i absolutely despise it when they use jonghyun for shock value and "proof" that the kpop industry is toxic and leads to suicide. how dare they use his death and others' for their agenda

Vice documentary just threw some stuff together which made no sense, drew a picture of villain and left it. So if Kpop is so wrong, why they didn’t propose a change?! How to turn industry to LIGHT?! Also I have asked them to remove my image from the documentary as I didn’t give my consent, they never replied. Speaks about professionalism. Volumes.

What bothers me is that kpop seems to be seen as a single entity. If a kpop idol is involved in a scandal, its a kpop issue. If one group or company is mistreated, its all of kpop.

I think western media only talk about the negative side of kpop because they can get a juicy story out of it. When it comes to American artists or other western artists, they also say things like 'X is getting married' or 'X bought a new house' or whatever. But when it comes to kpop, they aren't gonna report good news, because most of the people reading the articles or watch the videos on that don't even know korean celebrities aside from bts. So they only report on bad news, because it's sensational and interests non-kpop fans too. It kinda sucks how people only care about something they don't know of when it's a shocking and juicy story.

am i the only one who went ???? when those experts and stuff said "no drinking" and then they referred to mx who do it "often"? um excuse me, this is SOUTH KOREA we're talking about? a country with such a strong after-work-drink culture? theyve never been shy in talking about drinking, even on public broadcast.

That ending.."what is your definition of human?" really hit hard. This video was very well put together and your narration was easy to follow. I really loved it i feel like I've learned alot and it helped me understand alot of other things I couldn't wrap my head around. Thanks!

I think every single person that learns a new language will know how difficult and sometimes anxiety provoking it is to speak that language to a native speaker. I speak two languages and I'm learning a third. I get incredibly self conscious and anxious when I speak to native speakers. These Korean speaking artists try to speak English to an English speaking host for western shows that are broadcasted for a largely English audience. I'm pretty sure it's terrifying but they always try. I hardly ever see western media try to help them though. Only a handful will get a translator, they usually rely on the one or two fluent English members in a group which I think is so unfair.

Why I like kpop - For the longest time, I only listened to girl groups (I’m a straight girl), so obviously I didn’t want to date them. I just liked the fact that there where these people who had like inside jokes with the fans and it felt like a weird type of friend. I’m not delusional I know they don’t know me but it’s like there’s these people who you can listen to their music or watch their vlogs and it feels like your at home.

"why are people so willing to believe things about kpop that are so easy to disprove?" xenophobia and the west's superiority complex

I don’t really get why she made the point about Korean entertainment companies being strict with copyright of kpop music in the documentary like have you really not heard how much of a problem there is with western record labels copyright striking youtubers for no reason? I actually find that Korean entertainment companies don’t copyright strike youtube videos nearly as much as western labels do 🤷‍♀️

I’ve always been annoyed with the clips of BTS in American interviews not because of them, but because the interviewers ask such shitty questions. Like asking them if they’re going to make an English album...why should they do that? It’s like they’re treated as alien specimens and not the amazing artists that they are. That’s why I just keep to my own K-Pop bubble because it’s so frustrating feeling like I have to explain everything to people.

Basically, it is like we already have drawn our conclusions but to convince you, we are going to portray that we met all this people and dwell deep

There are definitely issues with the trainee process, but I get annoyed when hear stuff like "They're trained to be the perfect specimen and to have no flaws". Like no?? How would one even accomplish that?? Also god forbid anyone ever be trained and educated in order to succeed in an industry they want a career in. The horror. I'm sure they totally learned journalism through their own means and talent and didn't pay a college a good chunk of money to educate them or help them network and land a job in the industry.

One of the thing that bugs the hell out of me, is that when they mention one dark aspect, they apply it to the whole of kpop. Like don't they understand that different companies are run differently? Not everyone is subjected to the same treatment. Some idols even voluntarily restrict themselves, cause they feel responsible to their group members and group. And doing something voluntarily vs contractually is a huge difference.

Love how people be like "dark side of kpop" yet chose to ignore the actual truth about their own culture like Hollywood...

Thank you for trying to stand up against this! I think that the whole "kpop is trash" thing has become a meme at this point.. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They have just found a scape goat to be at the end of the joke. And if it just had ended there I wouldn't care much. But when MSM makes a documentary like this, that is clearly targeted to people outside the community trying to "understand" kpop, it seems very one-sided and manipulative. On the other hand, who really trusts MSM in 2020? Especially the younger generations don't give a shit... Also I find it hilarious that they used BTS's successes but never really talked about how BTS has changed and is changing the rotten parts of kpop, or how their success is based on the fact that they didn't follow all those rules that the rest was following. I do agree that kpop is relatively toxic, but I came to realise that that has more to do with the standards of the Korean society and it been more conservative. However that is changing, and kpop is one of the wheels towards that. And honestly, which industry isn't toxic? Like for real, do you actually think that the entertainment industry is any better in the US? I would even argue that it's worse in some cases...

As an asexual I've always found it humorous when locals water down my love for k-pop to, "You're a hormonal teenager. You don't really care for their music! You just like them for their body. Go read your Jungkook smut fics." Trust me when I say I've tried having intercourse with past partners, but in the first couple of minutes I've always came to the same conclusion. The feeling of disgust. I'm incapable of batting an eye at a shirtless guy or a woman doing erotic dances, so it's easy to say that I have no desire to "get with" k-pop groups I look up to. I get a bit testy when people call me a liar. Here's the simple truth, I admire their hardworking nature that reflects within the choreography and music. I enjoy watching their interactions with each other in reality shows, because they make me laugh. It's safe to say that there's others who share the same sentiment as well. This misconception of the k-pop community is honestly so gross and dehumanizing. The fact that you see it so wide spread is almost baffling. On another note though, thank you for making these videos. You're doing incredible work right now that many refuse to deliver on. It's helping the community educate themselves and others on complex matters presented within the industry/fandom.

The thing that annoys me the most about these articles is the fact that they criticize and villainize kpop and then ignore the fact that the same exact issues can also be found in our music industry, which is hella hypocritical. Many young artists are abused and taken advantage of in every country, there are constant hate comments that affect the artists' mentality in every industry. Instead of villainizing kpop, these journalists should bring attention to these issues overall and how we can help these artists. Also if kpop wasn't Asian or from a foreign country it wouldn't have been treated like this

Anti- Pop music people, join with Racist people (who are against "Asian" music infiltrating into the primarily dominant "western" music control) to create this underlying prejudice that SHADES their conclusions---or even as way to "INFLUENCE". It's a struggle. I am happy for this kind of a video that Looks at how particular elements are used to make statements that may appear as "universal truth" but are often more sinister (so of course they will deny it).

keeping in with the point he made about how non western artists are often "otherized", i think much of the negativity toward idol music (kpop) is that it is from a non westernized country. xenophobia is deeply ingrained in much of western media and the lens through which many western-raised people view the world. how is it possible that a non english speaking movement, whether it be music or dance or visual art or film, became popular? well it must be because the fans refuse to see the "dark side" of that particular industry. it must be because the 'fantasy' of the movement is all the fans tune into, and they don't wish to engage on the issues within that industry. these statements are so untrue its laughable, but the media will continue to throw these chunks of 'news' at western viewers because that is what they are expecting to read.

As a Korean Canadian, I really appreciate this video because it includes what I have been saying and thinking for years in regards to k-pop. There are most definitely issues that NEED to be fixed but why are the idols getting the undeserved back-lash. I would also like to point out how the utter foolishness of expecting a foreigner that is not fluent in the language, to suddenly become outgoing. I also hate how when they can not communicate in English, somehow, people treat them as if they are a circus act. If they are too quiet, that means that they cannot talk about anything, if they are “too” outgoing, they are attention seekers. Why can’t western media understand everything and are not more “enlightened” than other countries and need to help them manage their own people. Like, white saviour complex much?

ok elliot, wow.. this video was well informed and very engaging! a good balance between being serious and entertaining. definitely keeping this in mind when making some content of my own. and i love how you added in an interview with a very credible and reliable person. keep up the hard work! you need to blow up! hope more people see🔥

this is what i'll be linking to everyone if they make a 'dark side of kpop' comment

Whenever people try to accuse kpop fans of only liking kpop because the members are good-looking I always remember something I saw a Black Veil Brides fan say back when I listened to a lot of emo music: "I download the mp3's so I can listen to their faces." It's a sarcastic statement. Basically, why would I download the music to listen to if I didn't enjoy the music itself, not just the faces?

I think the BTS Carpool Karaoke stands as an excellent counterpoint to the politeness "issue" - when put into a less-formal context, one in which the members were allowed to speak for themselves in Korean rather than having RM do all the talking apart from the introductions, mainstream Western audiences got a chance to see their personalities the way fans do when we watch variety shows and V-lives. The reactions I saw online and from the friends I watched it with were overwhelmingly positive. James Cordon in particular seems to be the host who understands how the groups he covers can thrive when taken out of a more standard interview setting; his games with other groups have given them a chance to really show their personalities, too. But very little Western coverage provides a chance to the groups to actually show personality this way, so of course groups come across as stiff!

'kpop idols dont swear' Agust D enters chat

I agree with everything you said. The Othering and generalizations need to stop. However there's one thing that I think we need to keep in mind, something I didn't want to admit in my early years as a kpop fan. You talked about how the narrative of the "perfect fantasy boyfriend" is false, referring to the many instances of idols being quirky/goofy/imperfect. However, I would argue that it's entirely possible that these imperfections are just part of their public persona. What I mean is that this "dorky" side of idols is always presented as charming or endearing. They are never serious character flaws. I can't help but feel that somewhere along the line, these idols were trained to show just enough humanity to be relatable. But not enough to expose their "true selves." Now this definitely won't apply to every idol. And I'm not saying having a persona is a bad thing! After all, everyone has one, and it's up to you to decide how you will utilise your own persona (for positive or negative public influence). But I do think we need to keep in mind that pretty much everything the idols do on camera is intentional. It is part of their branding to make themselves likeable. This includes all the crackhead behaviour we so love lol. The companies know fans love that stuff, so I'm sure they encourage it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just that there is no way we could "know" our idols in a personal sense, because the relationship is inherently para social. Fans should be aware that having cameras rolling does in fact change a person's behaviour. It's inevitable. The other component to this issue is the "fantasy" element. You pointed out that for a lot of fans, it isn't relevant. They aren't in it for the sex appeal. And while that may be true for some people, that doesn't change the fact that there is rampant sexual objectification in kpop. Both female and male. These young people are made to look aesthetically pleasing, attractive, and sexy. And lots of fans have no problem turning them into objects of sexual fantasy. I don't think I need to remind you about the ridiculous amount of explicit fanfic written about idols. It becomes especially problematic when it comes to male idols, because everyone knows about the Male Gaze, but what about the Female Gaze? There are multiple groups that pander specifically to this. All the water stages, ab reveals or just plain shirtless dancing. The boys are taught to look at the camera seductively. Their sexuality becomes something to be consumed. There is this assumption that boys should just appreciate being overly sexualized, that being desired by thousands of women who are essentially strangers is a mark of success. Or that in some way it empowers them because they are proving they are confident in their body. But I would argue that it is actually just as demeaning as if a female idol was heckled for shaking her butt onstage. When you turn someone you are not in a relationship with into a sexual object, you commodify them. Turn them into a means to your own ends instead of a full human being. And kpop companies know this and exploit it. I'm not blaming the idols. And I don't necessarily blame the fans either, because most people aren't even aware that over sexualizing men is a problem too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to remain very vigilant on this issue. Because although many fans rebel against objectifying their idols, it's still something that is super prevalent in stan culture. And it's something the companies push for, in music videos, live stages, reality TV shows where they get members to flirt with each other. Thus it needs to be continually questioned and reexamined if we want to be taken seriously when we say "it's not about the sex appeal."

Side note: had no idea the ‘bebe’ in monbebe was pronounced like the spanish word for baby.

every time I see " the dark side of kpop " video made by a non asian person makes me ask my self " are they jealous or what?" fr why they're obssesed of showing the bad side of it while the bad is only a 10%

i hate how antis feel the need to act all heroic about it, pretending that we don’t know what a company is. or even going as far as acting like none of us heard about sulli dying.

Their always has to be a dark side of a fandom

the way I'm seeing a stark difference in the comment section here vs the last part. you left them no room to argue on this one. absolutely incredibly researched and discussed (I'm not sure abt the part w suicide mentioned bc I chose to skip that section since it makes me uncomfortable) but as for all the rest you left no stone unturned. amazing job.

i really want to show this to my uncle, cuz he bullies me for this, but he only speaks french ;-; like last week i had a panic attack and he just said it was because im a "teenager" that it's bc of hormones and i hate it ... im tired of ppl shaming me for being an ARMY like sometimes when im in public or in school my "friends" would just make fun of me and sometimes even strangers would insult bts if they saw my phone case...

The media likes people who are genuine. Usually,the first thing I watch when I get interested in a group is crack videos. The media likes BTS not necessarily just for their beautiful visuals, good music, or amazing performances but because of how genuine, real, and funny they are. Genuine people are fun and enjoyable to watch, for example,Pewdiepie, the biggest RU-vidr doesn't nessasarilly have the best video quality, the most handsome, or is the most professional, but he's so popular because he's genuine. He comfortable with showing his true self camera. Now I'm not saying BTS isn't popular because of their music but that how real they are is also part of what makes them popular. BTS is actually so liked because of their imperfectness, I doubt AI would ever be able to replace their genuineness.

Why does this channel not have more subscribers? I'm so upset. You need more appreciation. This is the well thought out, well researched video that the world needs to listen to.

You had me at 10 identical seokjins. But in all seriousness, thank you again for a really in depth look at the way kpop is shown, I always enjoy your videos. I particularly liked you picking up on the fact that outsiders are only seeing kpop idols in western settings (where they don't speak the language) and thus superficially judging them by a "stiff robotic exterior", and not allowing for differences in cultural politeness, which is nicely contrasted by the very human side fans actually see in variety shows and content that the kpop artists create/are involved in in SK.

It's funny when "western media" are like "Oh you just when date them" as if no one ever fantasized about any western artist. A lot of singers/bands use their attractiveness to draw attention. I mean, have they never *seen* a Nicki Minaj video? I like a lot of her music, but no one can deny that her butt is often in the starring role and you know what? **That's okay.** I think even like 99% of people who do fantasized about dating idols are aware that it is just a pleasant day dream and get on with their life. Yes, there are ppl who are obsessed, but they are not exclusive to idol music either.

This why I don’t watch or read those type of articles. It’s extremely generalising and dehumanising. I get frustrated. They only want to paint a certain picture and don’t want to look at it properly. I completely admit that industry has those dark sides but they completely ignore the other details.

The fact that I love the group I love BECAUSE they seemed more real, genuine, raw than the western artists while they are saying the opposite is almost amusing. My whole life I saw public figures and artists as some kind of demigods, perfect beings, unapproachable and far superior to me, and now supporting a group of artists who feel like family to me, normal people who could be my neighbors, my friends, my siblings it's so refreshing. It's a type of human connection they will never understand. The fact that I am able and do contribute to their achievements and success, brings a sense of accomplishment and happiness to me. I'm happy with them, I'm happy for them, I'm happy I could help. I was there for them like they were there for me when I needed it. They didn't manipulate me with fantasy bullshit, like they say, it's more of a symbiosis. They accuse the fans of superficiality while talking about the idols' appearance, but don't realize they themselves created the superficial narrative without researching deeper. This is fodder for the brain-dead people who like to absorb this kind overly dramatic, half-assed "news". What happened to journalism really? So many so called journalists today behave like hyenas rubbing their hands together waiting for you to say something they can twist around and change the meaning to fit their agendas... Maybe we are ALL delusional, maybe we are all victims of the big bad kpop devil's manipulation. But I'm not suffering, on the contrary, the depression that ate away at my heart for so many years is now something that I can deal with, and heal... with music and lovely people(artists, people behind the cameras and fans).

my problem is where they (to me it sounds like ) they are saying that kpop idols ending their life is a thing in the k-pop industry.... there many other celebrity's around the world that sadly end their life because the fame and many other things you lose for being famous. Also just being depressed is a common thing around the world for any celebrity. Yes, the company does make mental health more at risk for their bad expectations during training and being an idol and then cause more problems, but they all have their own things that happen in their life that can also be a add on to their mental health. But using famous idols who was known and just saying that it because of the company who put them through this and made them to the decision that they have chosen. When we have seen that there was more than just the hard strict idol training and just being an idol. Overall, to me when people say about the training and idol life is a the main reason to such decisions (which is probably sadly true that happens for trainees but not every trainee has the same experiences) and that it doesn't happen to idols that are not k-pop idols. just because they are not k-pop idol it doesn't mean they have mental health problems and/or have ended/attempted for their own struggles in their life. Mental health and the hard S word is not exclusive to k-pop trainees and idols. wherever the idol is from in any country you can have mental health issues do to the cons of being exposed to the world and having your life watch pretty much 24/7. Thank you for listening, if anything came out something off putting or weird please tell me because tried my best to say what i felt but i could come off as something else to other. thank you bye have a nice day.

My friend once said the music isn't bad but she refuses to like it because of the industry, I really want her to watch this video but I know for a fact she won't watch it if I send it to her... It's a vicious cycle

Relating everything to "oh you're just atracted to them" is really upsetting to me because I am a lesbian and a boy group stan, so what's your point 🤷🏾‍♀️

Western mediahouses: Dark side of kpop. Also western mediahouses: Uses BTS as a thumbnail. Meanwhile me: *imagine being that ignorant* 🤦‍♀️

As a French person ,I can tell you that when someone speak a language you're not good at, you feel lost and look robotic since you're just trying your best to understand it I had a trip to the north of england when I wasn't as good at english and I seemed very stiff since I was scared of offending someone or not being understood and I couldn't understand them as good as they had a very strong accent my ear were not used to. Same thing when my german teacher speak , in my head it's just like: "???what???"

me when i cant play beyonce's lemonade in a youtube video: given beyonce's sensitivity to exposing ANY flaws in her carreer..... where the creation of perfect imagery is the standard..... permissions to even music rights are nearly impossible.... foolery aside, another incredible video. cant wait for more, also cant wait for these to go viral. like someone else in the comments said PLEASE start clickbaiting locals so this information can finally reach them (doubt they'll want to listen though lol) i'll do my best sharing until then. take care, lots of love&support xx

it really sucks that these people are willing to slap the "kpop" label onto systemic problems such as mysogeny.

Hands up if you see BTS as friends and not as "boyfriends" 🙋🏻‍♀️🙋🏽‍♀️🙋🏿‍♀️