the moment that RUINED Jon Snow in Game of Thrones 

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In the books, Jon letting Ygritte live was categorically NOT the reason Qhorin's group was captured. Qhorin says so when he tells Jon he knows that he spared her--she did not have a way to get back to the Lord o Bones until after they were already found out. They were found out by Orell's eagle. Qhorin says he wanted to know what kind of man he was--and because he spared Ygritte, Qhorin knew he was the man to infiltrate the Free Folk. Qhorin already knew they were going to be caught when they attacked Ygritte and Orell's position. He's just that good.

Show Jon: “I dun wan it” Book Jon: “He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me.” Honestly I think a lot of the problems with Jon in the show begin all the way in Season 1 and the changes to his characterization. The show removes a lot of his personality and flaws. Like his cynicism and snarky, sarcastic humor. Jon is straight up one of the funniest characters in the books alongside Tyrion, Edd, and the One True King of Comedy Stannis. And then his flaws like his insecurity and resentment from being a bastard, being quick to anger, and his general angst. Not to mention how deep down Jon actually envied Robb (despite loving him) and covets Winterfell, and is genuinely tempted and has a whole internal crisis when Stannis offers to make him Lord of Winterfell. Now to be fair a lot of Jon’s characterization is in his internal monologue. But the show also removes any outward expression of it. The show seems like it was just trying to make him like Ned. When I think a big aspect of Jon’s character is that he isn’t honorable like Ned, although he aspires to be. And that’s even before Jon is elected Lord Commander and tries to “kill the boy” and become the cold, callous, pragmatic Lord Snow. And then the difference in characterization are exasperated and completely diverge. “Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.” And then Jon will probably come back even darker after his resurrection…

Note that in the books Qhorin does not need Jon to kill Ygritte. He says that the wildlings would have sighted them anyway and if he wanted her dead, he’d have killed her himself. The only reason he instructs Jon to do it is to get a measure of his character, which he does when Jon spares her. Qhorin uses this information later when he gives Jon his mission. He knows that Jon stays true to his values over orders, and that he won’t kill without a good reason. This means he can be trusted to pose a double agent and take enemy orders while staying true to the Watch, and it also means that Qhorin has to explain to Jon clearly why he has to kill him. All of this is lost for the sake of a chase in the snow with Ygritte.

Honestly, Jon especially had some weird stuff going on right from the beginning. In the first episode they had Theon assign Ghost to him instead of having Jon himself claim him. It’s not that big but they were stripping his agency right from the start and it spiraled out of control from there

They ruined Jon's character almost immediately when they zapped his sass. Yes, book Jon wants to follow Ned's honorable teachings (in the beginning), but he is also incredibly sassy and has a hard time not talking back. He's a bit of a smartass and becomes quite political, which is why him and Tyrion get along so well in the first place. The show muted his character and made him a generic, kind of dumb hero. It's like D and D read Ygritte telling Jon her famous line and mistook it for him actually being stupid, missing the entire point of their relationship and character differences. "You know nothing Jon Snow" doesn't mean he's an idiot, but more that he's never really lived, he doesn't know what's truly important (at least to people who are free), and he doesn't really know who he is yet. This is long-winded, but Jon was my book fav and seeing the show strip his character to such a cliche dullard actually hurt me. I can only imagine how George felt.

Another RU-vidr (Dominic Noble) pointed out that the point where Jon's arc starts to go down the wrong path (compared to the books, at least) is actually in episode one of season one. When they find the direwolves, in the show, when they find Ghost, Theon tells Jon, "this one will die, it's yours" or something along those lines. Jon looks at Ghost almost shocked. It males Jon a passive person, someone in a mean and backhanded receiving what will turn out to be power. In the book, Theon says it's a runt and it will die first (or something similar), a lot like in the show. BUT, it's Jon that says, "I think not: this one is mine." Jon is CLAIMING, making an active move to gain what he KNOWS is power. He is rejecting the fate that is given to him and the puppy (death/being lesser). It was clear, at that point, what path was chosen for show Jon. He's the classic hero being pushed into the world of politics. They decided they didn't want the book Jon. Anyway, Dominic Noble was amazing to catch that.

I found it confusing that on the show not even Qhorin seems to take the mission of the watch seriously and then sacrifices himself like that makes sense. In the book he's determined and has a strong investment in fighting the wildlings and that he'd instruct Jon to kill him makes sense. Jon is a kid being thrust into a suicide mission he has little choice in and that's powerful stuff, he's not even very strongly tied to the watch yet, he's very young and it's natural for him to get infatuated with Ygritte and sympathise with the wildlings. Why couldn't the show pick up these clearly very interesting character conflicts and challenges? The show runners seemingly got confused by the white guy with beard iconography and decided he's Jesus.

Book Jon is almost a completely different person than show Jon. Great points all around. If anyone is looking for another in depth explanation, Alt shift X did a Real Jon Snow vid that's very detailed and goes into more details on the themes and background and speculates on his future in the books.

I thought they made it pretty clear that Jon was meant to infiltrate the wildlings, but the conflict was just that he was impressed with mance rayder and he fell for Ygritte

D & D messed up pretty much everyone's character. The only characters that are more fleshed out in the show then the books and given more interesting storylines are Olenna and Margery Tyrell. Their book characters are a little more boring.

That's why I never took GOT seriously as an adaptation of ASOIAF, they made some pretty good changes and some really bad ones, I loved it from season one to four, kinda like season five for some of it's moments but absolutely hated everything after it. The show runners changed the characters too much, even if the changes were subtle they still mattered a lot

Show jon is the character book jon wishes he was. Heroic, always knowing what to do and never tempted and always in control of his emotions. What baffled me by rereading the books is how much Jon seeks moments to be a hero, to have songs sung about him, to be seen as a stark....

Great analysis - frustrating how much richer GOT could have been. Also your ad transition made me legit smile.

I like the comment about the story bending around Jon. It's such a dangerous trap in writing, getting attached to a character and making sure that the story doesn't change or kill them. Or maybe in a show like this there was a concern that doing too much to alter his character, especially later on when show fans couldn't be reassured by readers of the books, might cause audience disengagement? As a completely unrelated note, it would be awesome to see My Little Thought Tree's take on the contrast between Max and Vincent in the movie Collateral, if that would be an enjoyable project. Their dynamic is just fascinating. Great, thought-provoking video, as always. :)

It seems the show's creators misunderstood most of the characters on a pretty fundamental level. They wanted us to believe that both Jon and Dany were definitively heroic instead of showing them both as morally grey and growing darker. They wanted us to believe that they would have an epic romance instead of worldviews and values that clash on a fundamental level. And maybe they could have made those aspects of the story work if they'd tossed aside GRRM's planned ending and just written the ending that they wanted. Like, if you're going to deviate from the source material's characterization that much to make the characters fit your preferred type, then of course the source material's ending is going to appear nonsensical. Why not just write Jon and Dany teaming up to heroically take down the White Walkers and then placing themselves on the Iron Throne in a glorious rebirth of the Targaryen dynasty? Sure, that's pretty much the opposite of what GRRM is going for, but at least it would have satisfied the writers and a large portion of their audience.

Looking back on it, so much of what went wrong with the show seems like it turned into bad fanfiction, with every plot point that wasn't GRRM's becoming fan service and wish fulfillment: show how awesome the good guys are by having them win against bad guys. Whenever the books have monstrous characters (the Mountain, Ramsay, the Brave Companions, etc.), they're never defeated in a straight-forward victory, and they're always used to explore complicated themes about how horrible people are politically empowered in this terrible terrible world.

It's kinda funny just how early on the divergence from the books is setting up characters to fail by key aspects for their arcs. In the early seasons Jon is still a pretty solid character and mostly works but due to the fact that his story is for a less honourable and more morally grey character, it doesn't really work in the later seasons anymore. As someone else in the comments so nicely put it: "Jon Snow isn't as honourable as Ned Stark, though he aspires to be". He does desire Winterfell, he has to fight huge inner battles between love and duty and he is truly tempted by Stannises offer, he wants it but knows it's wrong. Honour doesn't come easy to Jon as it seemingly did with Ned. One thing I would like ta add to the reasons mentioned in your video is the resurrection of Jon Snow and just how little impact it has on the man and his story. Like his character doesn't change at all from it whereas others like lady Stoneheart and Derrick Dondarrion go through dramatic changes. Being betrayed like that should change you. Experiencing death on its own should change you and the books at least have clearly set up that when you return from the dead it's "not all of you that comes back" a little of your humanity, what made you you is left behind each time.

Your videos really make me wanna reread the books but having given up all hope the series will never get finished, I don't want to get invested all over again 😭

What do you mean Grey Worm had little to no influence in that council scene. He was the head of the only army in that city besides the northmen, which were leaderless. He should have been the only person in that scene who got to make any decisions.

lol this was actually one of the things I liked better in the show. Jon citing Mormont’s tolerance of Craster as his reason for defecting was much more believable than “uhh… idk… I just think you wildlings are cool…”

The moment the show fell apart was in episode 1 when Catelyn begged Ned to stay at Winterfell rather than pushing him to go south. From that moment on, all the female characters were written to be 2D

"do whatever is asked, do not balk, your honor means nothing vs the realm" jon thinks about this phase a lot in ACOK. Did he say this in the show ??

Jon's resurrection was probably the biggest disappointment for me in Game of Thrones, and if Lady Stoneheart is any indication it will be very different in the books. Stoneheart is a distillation of Catelyn's negative attributes, her vindictive grudge holding, poor aim/disregard for consequences when pursuing vengeance are taken to the extreme. Jon's resurrected form Lord Snow will unleash the parts of Jon he has held back until now. He will be coldhearted, covetous, and quick to violence. A wolf wearing the skin of a man, driven by instinct.

It was anoying that he basically killed Velarion by not escaping in time, he wasn't good in the battle of the bastards and mostly, he was useless in the long night. Plus all those repetitive lines. 'I don't want it'

Solid video. I do think the show's early seasons were mostly good, but as you pointed out here, a lot of cracks were beginning to form even early on.

When I see the quality, quantity, and production of your videos, I'm always shocked that you don't have 1M+ subscribers. I'm sure it's just a matter of time. Keep it up!!

Hi I absolutely love this channel and all it's content so much and Ive never commented before but I just wanted to say how much I miss the ramblily videos which were my favorite like the one about doors and the one about not taking things too serious and all the therapy ones especially ones about children's therapy whether that be the case study things or the more general ones and the ones about lesser known films and tv shows, I know you've got big projects taking up a lot of your time and you might just prefer mainly doing videos about the same popular shows if that's the case then fair enough but I just wanted to consent in case u weren't doing your random rambling videos about your thoughts on different things anymore cus u thought people didn't like them and if that was the case then I just wanted to let you know they are very missed by me, I hope this don't come across rude or entitled obviously make whatever u wanna make but if u did wanted to make any none film or TV based videos again I would love that as they are missed, sorry for the long comment as u can tell I'm a rambler and I'm aware u might not read this anyway but just thought I'd try as I love those kind of videos so much and would be great to see some more

Jon was my favorite character, in both the books and the show but I was always very up about the changes the show made to him. He felt like a shadow of himself compared to his book counterpart.

Thanks for posting today❤

I listen to those lofi songs all the time ❤ great video yo

Its really sad because season 7 Jon was *almost* great. I feel like more pandering writers (which I'm amazed I'm saying right now) would simply have Jon and Dany immediately click, but nah they actually resisted that urge for a little while, having Jon be at least somewhat antagonistic towards her, despite her appearing to be a good person and their alliance being one that would make sense. But towards the end of the season and DEFINITELY by season 8, he becomes the generic loyal knightly character towards her at best, a pre-programmed response robot at worst. He was my favorite character for most of the series, but it's really hard to get behind a character who has given up all autonomy when they were a good character for often breaking taboos and bending rules for the purpose of helping the unfortunate.

I'm hearing all of this and can't stop comparing it to Dune It really feels like a what if of Paul's journey

I never watched the show beyond a few episodes in the fourth season because they were messing everything up so badly by then. Who is that kid at the Wall who didn't like Jon? It's so weird to me that the show cuts tons of characters and one could argue it's for practical purposes but at the same time they also just invent their own, like Locke or, presumably, that kid.

I wish they would've included Val and Dalla in the show. It would've been interesting to see where the Jon/Val thing went, since the book is never going to be finished

Death and resurrection is supposed to mean something in the Game of Thrones world. It’s supposed to have consequences, it’s supposed to change people. It did nothing to Johns character at all and everybody around him acted like it was totally normal. And it meant nothing. You literally fighting an enemy that doesn’t stay dead and willingly accept somebody without even a word who has just come back from the dead and everybody goes on as though it’s a great thing. It may as well have not happened.

Will you be finishing the Spirited Away video series? 🥺👉👈

Show Jon in contrast to book Jon lost me the moment Ygritte ESCAPED him. Their whole Romeo and Juliet thing becomes unbelievable to nonsensical when she ESCAPES him instead of HE LET HER GO. Like someone else already commented, the took away his agency in so many occasions, he is just a blank slate to fill in generic heroism whenever you need it.

The moment he was ruined, was when he didn’t stay dead

your ad transitions are the best one on RU-vid btw 😂😂

I think this is the Captain America Complex; a heroic character that wants to do the right thing simply becuase it is the right thing to do but While the MCU has room in its stories for a character like Steve Rogers, I dont think GOT where everything is morally grey and a political game had room for a character like Jon Snow. Of they were going to embrace the nilhism they should have had him stay dead.

That has to be one of the most painful ad reads I’ve seen. You sounded like WORLD ANVIL had kidnapped your family and this was the only way to get them back

Amazing analysis as always ✨🥰

I'm not entirely why youtube recommended this video to me since I've neither read the books nor ever watched the show but... here we are, I guess!

The ways that you work in the World Anvil ad-read in your episodes always makes me laugh.

Its the main problem when adapting a book to film. Especially A song of ice and fire. Most of the chapters are people thinking and debating with themselves about themselves and the world around them.

I think its fair at this point to ask what character didn't get ruined, they all sucked in the end.

I have these problems with the Starks in general. They're better in the books but they seem too much like traditional fantasy heroes in the show.

I always found the “need more allies“ plot A lot more essential and complex for the story than you’re making it out in this video. Because it related to the white walkers which in any sane persons head would’ve been the end game plot line. So you needed at least one character who saw the true threat and knew everyone needed to put aside their petty differences and work together or we will all die. So they could have that told you so moment where all the other characters finally see the true threat and realize they’ve been living in luxury and maybe shouldn’t have killed all of each other’s best fighters. But since the walkers didn’t become the endgame plot and the fight for the iron throne did I guess your point does stand that we should’ve seen Jon be more political in his motivation and moves. But I knew early on he was never gonna have a chance because he was taught the lesson by evil men and by the time he was actually in power to make political moves the real world strong woman movement was just getting started and all the other leaders were women and there was no way in hell they were going to make Jon Snow look more capable than a woman leader

Jon choosing love over the right politics with Dany could've been so much better if they never cut Satin from the show. A reason why Jon is killed in the books is because he appoints Satin as Lord Steward despite barely being at the wall a year. Yes, Satin is one of the few people in the watch that can read, but Jon appointed the pretty femboy to be his right-hand man for more than just his ability to read. Jon chooses Satin because he has a crush on Satin in the books. And this is indicative of the greater issue with show Jon. D&D taking away what makes Jon a complex character. The fact he is in a constant battle of wanting so much, but always being reminded of his greater duty, only for a letter to arrive that crosses a line. It's just another reason why I am convinced D&D disliked books 4 and 5. I even doubt they read them in full

«i dun wan it» «you Are mah queen» show jon Snow is ned Stark 2.0 i don’t understand why he can’t stay in Winterfell the north is it own kingdom now Bran has no power there and the unsullied left Westroes

D&D and the other show writers NEVER understood the Stark kids…including Jon. I’m just going to focus on Jon, Sansa, and Arya because they got the most screen time out of the Stark kids. Jon, Sansa, and Arya are very internal characters. Which means most of their actions are motivated by their deep internal thoughts which is easy to convey in books but way more difficult to convey in a show. They wrote Sansa as this stupid, spoiled, little girl rather than a child trying to be the perfect woman in Westeros society and when that blows up for her, Sansa has to confront all the things she was told about the world. What makes Sansa so great in the books is that we see her starting to realize her political power and she is determined to use her political power to make the world better. What makes Sansa strong in the books is her internal power, she refuses to let the horrible things that happen to her shape her into a horrible person. Jon in the books isn’t an action hero he actually thinks a lot before he makes a decision. He has a lot of internal conversations with himself and Jon stands behind his decisions not matter the risks. Also the scene in the show when Jon kills Qhorin makes no sense. In the show Qhorin just attacks Jon & Jon kills him in self defense. So why would that win over the Wildlings? Again in the books Jon actually thinks about this and realizes this is his only way to survive so HE attacks and kills Qhorin to show the wildlings that he is on their side. Arya was done the worst by this awful show. In the books Arya is just a traumatized child that has no idea what home means anymore, so she searches for a new home and purpose. Arya isn’t some unstoppable killing machine, she is just a young girl trying to find a place in the world after the destruction of her family and home.

Wait, but Jon was never universally loved in the Watch, and never chosen like that tho.

i think Jon wanted to give halfhand an easy death like he gave mance

Here we go, boys (and girls). Someone get the popcorn!

The showrunners committed themselves to spectacle over substance. They didn't have the writing skill or depth to handle ANY of the characters or plot points after the books ended.

good video

Just subscribed because I need more lol

They made John look like a Simp.

I always applaude thus type of analysis... but I wonder, why do them? Mainstream TV and movies are are essentially rubbish and their adaptations never ever reach the toe of the original book writer. They're a waste of space.

The whole "the best leader is the one who does not want to lead" makes Jon a way more passive character and robs him of agency. Show!Jon is a lot more like Frodo Baggins, a simple guy who just does what needs to be done and sacrifices himself while doing so. Just without that pesky being successfully tempted by power thing. Their remodelled Jon might be more morally acceptable and he does not at all try to change the status quo (because you'd have to want the power to do so and we can't have the hero wanting power, that's just too corrupting) but he does not fit the plotline. Jon in the show just makes less and less sense because he was redone to be a pure high fantasy hero. It's like putting Walter White into the Lord of the Rings- some things just don't mesh and if you try to harmonize, you'd end up with gibberish. I am reminded of "Anatomy of Story" by Turby, how everything has to fit the theme and characters are a web, other characters get flat if you only focus on the main character. Here they just cut out the Jon that fit the plot and exchanged him for a more steamlined and heroic version, maybe to make him more likeable. Sadly we don't just like "good and pretty" people. To be entertaining, a character must be interesting. And Jon became less so, not more.

Season 8 was a love letter to disney. Saying look, we can be woke too. Give us Star Wars

♥️

Jon obviously wasn’t quite happy to join the Wildlings, and killing Qhorin was obviously somewhat difficult for him; you see this in the acting, Jon hesitating and his facial expressions. And I never once thought he was going to actually join them; it is totally against his character, and him breaking away was obviously a waiting game because cannot just break away whenever. The scenes make it clear the the is not really joining them either. Just because he likes Ygritte and has an understanding with a few of them, and respects their ways does not, in any way, mean or imply Jon is going to join them. I feel as if this is just a misreading on your part.

Season 2 for me was bad adaptation of Jon's story. Dany's too.

Wow, you really just watched the Alt Shift X video and summarised it in your style huh? Threw in a sponsor too. "My Little Thought Tree"?

I hate the show later seasons as much as anyone but almost every single point you made was just wrong lmao

You don't know what I think.

I disagree with you, although I appreciate your opinion. There’s nothing wrong for the show to have this “hero” especially considering all the other characters in the show. It’s a shame how the show didn’t follow through and see this point home and have that awful ending

Sponsor section was so worthy to watch

Using plot points from seasons 7 and 8 to highlight why a character is “bad” is like playing soccer/football without a goalie. It’s honestly pathetic. I respected your opinion up until you tried to bolster it with content from s7 onward. Seeing as every single character got butchered it’s hardly fair to use that as an example of “bad” characters because they all fuckin sucked from that point on. As someone who hasn’t read the books I can’t relate to the disappointment that people feel with the differences in character (in the case of GoT anyways) but from a purely show watching standpoint I don’t think there’s nearly as big of a problem as people suggest. Especially seeing as I don’t think you HAVE to question/challenge his morals every chance you get in order to make him more compelling. Given how hard it is for any other character to do the “right” thing in this world, it can be very compelling to watch someone while they try to live doing the “right” thing when the world is constantly pushing back against these ideals. It causes struggle and conflict which is why we watch this stuff in the first place.

“It’s not like in the books , mimimi” - summary of this video. This show does an insanely good job fleshing out a huge number of characters and story arcs. Not ALL of them , but a huge number. They didn’t cut some of the arcs and characters because they are “scared of exploring morality”, but because some of them are just less important or entertaining than the others. In a book that’s fine, in a show, it’s not. You just don’t compare GOT to the books. You compare it with OTHER SHOWS.

Damn I’m early?

I have a very different way of looking at this. Not that Jon Snow's character was ruined, but the fact that audience feedback suggested they just liked having him back, raised from the dead. -that the audience just wanted to hang out with their favorite characters, to hell with the plot and character development and storytelling. It wasn't the character that got ruined, it was the relationship between the series makers and the audience. From that point J & J stopped caring what direction anyone was taking, it was just one dramatic moment after another, with characters the audience loved or hated. Basically the fans ruined the series, not the writers. For that matter, any show which calibrates to audience metrics from now on! Jon Snow wasn't ruined, Jon Snow ruined us! 😳

We need the fricken Jon Snow show... come on HBO!

Never thought Jon was all that interesting in the first place.

I legit never liked John. I always thought he was over rated.

The moment they ruined him was bringing him back to life

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