And the money. I’m still paying my mortgage after giving a mortgage to the corporation. I know plenty of older people who feel let down by TSCC because of doctrinal changes, hypocrisy, prosperity doctrine etc etc.
The reason I never started drinking is that as a cop, I saw alcohol cause lots of problems. I don’t believe in prohibition, however. As for cigarettes, I hate how addictive, unhealthy, expensive, and smelly they are. Having never smoked or drunk for 68 years, I have no desire to start now. Another thing I hated was at work, people could take time to smoke, but if I wanted to pause for even a short time, I was not allowed to take an “I don't smoke” break, and I was allegedly slacking.
@@opkcts9025 the money we gave the corporation and the money we didn’t make because I was being the good Mormon mom staying home with my kids & then homeschooling my younger two because I felt inspired to do so after praying.
i’m so lucky that i found my way out at 14( i’m 17 now). I still live with my family and regularly go to church, church activities, and seminary because i am not of age yet and this podcast is a great place to feel at home while i still have to go to all of these church activities
In my heart I started drifting away from the church as a preteenager in the '50's, which was not easy with a hard core obsessive Mormon mother. I had many issues, but the biggest one was racism. My mother went appoplectic when I got involved in civil rights protests and in my twenties fell in love with a beautiful Black medical student. She spent the rest of her life punishing me.
I was taught...you don't allow anyone to make you feel less than. Race is sooo important to some people but not to God. We embrace the Bible, God is our creator, God is omnipotent and omnipresent remember John 3:16. He sent Jesus to redeem ALL mankind...including the ones mormons want to exclude. Salvation saves not a secret handshake or ceremony in a temple. What can wash away my sin nothing but the blood of Jesus! Love everyone!
I am sorry you had to endure that. I am happy though that you followed your own heart and broke the mold. I am sure you paved the way for many including your close friends and family.
When John Dehlin was channeling his neo-apologist, I kept thinking, "Take those arguments to bishops, stake presidents, or even the Apostles and First Presidency." I literally once sat in front of a Bishop and said, "I think the brethren are wrong on this issue." He had me in to see the stake president ASAP to possibly face a disciplinary council.
No, he just admitted to being a full blown communist. Mao, Stalin, Hugo Chavez are his heroes. No credibility on his political belief system, he seems to know a lot about Theology, but it makes me question his judgement on that too. I thought it was ironic that he brought up the NBA as not being a evil institution when they punish any player that criticizes the CCP and their genocide against the Weiger population or how they treated the people of Hong Kong. John Larsen seems to be better in general, maybe not up as much on Mormon theology. By the way I'm a never-Mo, so not defending the church. I just know what people that think like John Larsen would do to the well being of people in the US if they get in power.
He was off on the vaccine thing. The time period he's talking about the virus had mutated and the vaccine had mostly lost its effectiveness. I think they came up with a new version of the vaccine that finally worked with the new strain but it had already pretty much made it through the population. But hey we can't know everything, especially on the fly.
Good heavens. John Larsen speaks with such bold, cogent power he makes every modern "restored prophet, seer, and revelator" sound infantile and incompetent. Although I don't believe in the Church anymore, they might benefit from emulating just a quarter of his brass balls. Instead, they hide behind proxy apologetics and religious manipulation. I'm going to listen to this interview another 100 times. So, so good.
Wow... I love his passion and truth starting around the 01:38:00-ish mark. I was raised in South Eastern Idaho in the LDS faith. I remember in church and seminary being taught these things and thinking "That doesn't sound like any truth or truth that I want to be a part of." But also having been thickly surrounded by indoctrination my entire life makes it difficult to try to expunge the religion out of your life. Especially since I still love my family. I am still relieved for having critical thinking and analytical skills.
I was raised Catholic. As a 9-yo child, I asked an honest question in catechism class. The nun burned my face off with one word, "Blasphemy!" I went home and looked up the word in the dictionary. I was smart enough to know that a child asking a question was not blasphemy. That was the beginning of my separation from that cult.
I was raised, forced, indoctrinated in Jehovah Witnessses. Even as a little kid, I cringed. These cults have so much in common. The family part hurts. Yeshiva Jews I overheard voiced doubts so much like mine. How? They led me to secular study of the New Testament. It crushed the Watchtower. To my shock, my family chose me. Fear of losing them led to compliance. 😊
This podcast with John Larson is so good. I really hope that John Dehlin does a podcast specifically on critical thinking & epistemology just because it is soooo super important. I didn’t realize how much I didn’t understand about my own biases and how much I didn’t understand about thinking properly. John, please… I don’t think the majority of people have spent enough time researching fallacies, logic and reason, and biases. You need to do a 3 hour podcast on biases, divisiveness, naïveté, epistemology, skepticism, reasoning and fallacies. Pretty please. It will be interesting.
I am a long time listener. WOW! Mormon Stories has provided so much great information already, but this was phenomenal. John Larsen you rock! I am so impressed and inspired by your knowledge, candor, and intelligence. I wish I could express that in more than a short comment. Thank you John Dehlin for all of your content.
So it is okay for the church to discriminate against people for what they did in a previous life? What about the Saviors' injunction of he that is without sin be the first to cast a stone. Mormons are modern day Pharassees.
Coincidentally, the story of the woman taken in adultery was added to the Gospel of John at a much later date than when the gospel was written. As I recall, it was added something like 800-1100 CE by some unknown scribe. My source is Bart Ehrman, PhD.
I'm so glad this moment could help you. If the transition is hard, like it was for me and others, find comfort in knowing that change is possible and that you are not a bad person.
John Ds laugh was so infectious today! 😂 I couldn’t help but laugh with him! So enjoyable! John L is a gold mine of knowledge and wit! Love him! And I appreciated Carahs thoughtful insights. All in all a very satisfying time well spent on MSP. Thank you so much!
A lot of times I have wanted to cry when I realized that I ever bought into this nonsense, but thankfully these days I find it more hilariously absurd, and both Johns have infectious laughs and great senses of humor.
John, your rant at 2:42:00 is great. That’s what we are fighting for. Life today for every single person in the world. It’s not about bashing religion it’s about truth, reality, and humanity. Our values are all about the well-being of conscious creatures and the earth. It’s about making the world a better place for the next generation and relieve suffering. THAT’S why this all matters so much to me too. It’s because we are fighting to get people to understand reality so we can try and do a little good in this world and the first thing that we have to get people to care about is truth because believing silly superstitions is causing harm. If you believe reality it will bring us all closer together and we wouldn’t be so divided.
John, you could have John on multiple times and I’d be listening. Thank you so much for this episode. Larson is never boring. As a never-mo I learned so much from listening to all of the Mormon Expressions.
OMG. I absolutely love John Larsen. I was an avid Mormon Expressions listener, and have totally missed him. I believe EVERY exmo NEEDS to listen to John L. and I hope every current mormon can some day listen to him with an honestly open mind.
If you guys are taking topic ideas for the panel I'd love to hear about how to best support orthodox Mormons leaving the church by ex Mormons who were never orthodox. I've been out of the church for years and before that I was never orthodox and I would like guidance on ways to provide support for this process if you've never gone through it yourself. I know it's been discussed on this channel and others but the panel could be especially helpful.
Please take this as a compliment, but I realized the way you interact in this interview (first one I've watched since you started) reminds me of Monica Padman on Armchair Expert, which is another podcast I love. This whole interview was FANTASTIC.
How I could have been part of this church confounds me. But ignorance is bliss, right? You have to put on blinders to ignore what this church is, was, and will always represent. They are backed into a corner, with no way out. So what do they do? Gaslight. Lie. Coverup. Whitewash. Cherry pick. It's such a mess. I reject the idea of sin. But if there is something you could classify as a sin it would be, for me, willfull ignorance. And that's one of the church's most effective tools. Don't use rationality. Don't be skeptical. Don't question. Just obey. This episode is awesome. Thanks John, and John. Oh, and Nuancedhoe. :)
This was so fascinating! I was more and more pulled into this every minute I watched. I wish I could give this 1000 thumbs up! So fabulous! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 I love all three of you humans! Thank you AGAIN for another TRUE Mormon story. 🤍
Thank you for the call of action John! It was such an important reminder to continue the healing process and use our talents, finances, and efforts for good beyond where we are now and where we were before our shelves broke. 🖤
3:20, “We don’t need balance with people who are telling lies....” this speaker is true to his own convictions. Worst people on earth ate those with a double edge. Just because of this statement 3 hours of my time was totally worth it!!
This would be such a perfect episode of the tv show "Drunk History" Where the story tellers get drunk and tell the stories in their own words while actors act out what the drunk narrator is saying. This would be perfect! My Adam and Eve theory is that the term Adam and Eve are a general classification of a whole group of people. So It makes sense that a large group of thousands of people were dropped off on this new planet from a space ship and left to fend for their selves. But then it's also possible - because of the fossil records that we simply evolved into what we are today. Hell I don't know.
Thousands of people were dropped off from a space ship and left to fend for themselves; sounds like the Battlestar Galactica 2005 reboot story. The guy who wrote the original 80's Battlestar Galactica was Mormon and placed alot of Mormon symbolism in the series. Watch the episode where Adama gets married and see if you can guess the grip he's holding as he recites the vows.
At 1:34:00, speaking of the reason for nepotism in the church, John Larsen touches on a very fundamental problem in the church. I have been trying to get this message out for years. There are two classes of members in the church: the "insiders" and the rest of us. I have heard this from three different unrelated sources inside the church, and just now hearing it from John. It's true. It's worse than you can imagine.
Really great show. Not commenting usually and being from Europe, so not directly involved in the stuff you´re talking about, I really appreciate you all insisting on striving for human kindness and involvement, despite of ideological baggage! Keep on!
John: I enjoy and learn from your presentations. It would be fun to discuss ideas. I’m not sure John Dehlin would be willing to have me on his show even if you were there with me-I don’t know why I think this; but if he would, I’d do it.
Martin Luther said and taught some very horrible things about Jews that likely exacerbated European antisemitism for centuries. Lutherans, however, can easily disavow those teachings simply by saying: Luther was wrong on the issue. He was right on a great many things and may have helped moved the cause of humanity forward. But he was wrong on the Jews. Luther never claimed revelation or restoration. Mormons can't do that with the racism of Smith, Young, et al. Mormon racial theories are baked into scripture and doctrine. To refute them is to state that Joseph Smith's translations were not merely incorrect, but foundationally were immoral at the inception.
This is my favorite episode and I have watched or listened to many. I love how John Larsen brought in politics, climate change and just being a good human.
So that is what happened to the Jewish law that stated that if a prophet makes even one prophecy that turns out wrong, they should be stoned to death. What with Moses being a product of his time, after all.
John seems to be focused on the true Christian life of helping others, of compassion, etc. It's ironic that most Christians aren't as clear about how to live a good life. How you live your life is much more important IMO than theology or which religion, or not, that you are a part of. But this interview really highlights so many important issues for all humans. Humility is one of the greatest attributes, the idea that there are things, realities which are out of my reach intellectually. Just because I can't comprehend it, or describe it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Being an atheist implies that a person KNOWS that there is no God. Being agnostic means that a person just doesn't know, maybe yes, maybe no. But the word God is just a word which happens to be attached to a particular meaning by Mormons, Christians and others. Rejecting their understanding of the word "God" doesn't mean that you necessarily reject all other ways of thinking of "God". I like the word "Source" because it doesn't carry the baggage of "God". Everything has a source, so why not consider the Source of Reality, the Source of the Universe, as something unknowable that is real, even if you have no way to describe it? Just an idea. This Source could be called the Ineffable, the Unknowable. Even materialism now suffers from new quantum understandings of basic material reality as an ocean of quantum energy permeating everything, even empty space. The ripples in the quantum field, or ocean, brings into being the "material" forms of the universe. So matter is only an illusion according to this understanding. But this idea is based on the latest scientific experiments and studies, not just philosophical musings. I don't think anybody really understands this, but we try to put it into words, to make a stab at it. This is much like the attempts to describe the reality of God, or the Source. The fact that Mormons have nailed down the definition of God just shows how little they understand. But Mormons are not alone in this. I once worked with a Mormon name Larson from Ogden back in 1960. He was a pharmaceutical rep, like I was. He told me that I should become Mormon because I was already living the life. I never understood what he meant.
@@davidjanbaz7728 I'm glad there are some! Are you saying that a Christian needs to be university trained in order to be clear concerning living a good life? My reference is partly the history of Christian nations and how they treated non-Christian people over the centuries.
@@davidjanbaz7728 I apologize for sounding negative about Christianity or Christians. I have know many good Christians in my life, and even tried to be one as a teen, but then I went to a University and discovered that there was a bigger world out there with many religions I'd never heard of before. This made it impossible for me to see Christianity as the one true religion. My family was not religious, nor anti-religious, so I wasn't trained as a child to believe. My wife is from a Buddhist background in Malaysia and was educated in a Methodist school. She was taught that her parents were going to hell because they weren't Christians....and she believed it at the time. This kind of superior attitude towards people of other faiths bothers me. It is akin to racism where one race sees itself as innately superior. It makes more sense to look at the fruits of a religion to see what benefits to humanity they've brought. I see all of the world religions as good, as appropriate for their time, even the more tribal religions such as that of the Iroquois Confederacy. The followers of religions usually aren't competent enough to fulfill the promise of their religion. New religions have appeared down through the ages because the old religion was no longer adequate for the new conditions, not that they were necessarily false. The condition of the world today is like nothing before in history, so it's no wonder that the religions are not able to cope with the knowledge now available, the choices, the new ways of thinking. They were designed for a former age, a former condition. That's how I see it. And I believe that everybody needs to investigate spirituality, religions and truth independently.
I could not live with myself if I was a man in the general authority. NEVER. I in my heart could never exploit members around the world, sit my ass down and have a banquet after conference knowing that so many people are financially hurting, not have clean water, not have food at all ect.
Hi John D., From your comment on how the Mormon leadership want to move forward; retain their leadership, dump the religion, keep the temple Endowment... I was taught in the Mormon church that to receive forgiven one had to admit/confess to ones failures, in this case that would be Mormon leadership admitting they lied to us publicly, like fallen ministers of the 80's and 90's did! They must apologize and follow the necessary steps of repentance...unless they are still somehow better than the rest of us, above repentance, above not lie, deceiving, cheating, etc. They must right the wrong they have bestowed upon us and those who have already died, who they deceived! Hypocrisy from the leadership is how they want to resolve this problem! We must repent, they can do a wink and a nod and all is forgiven? They retain power? You know when the leaders of the church are lying when there lips are moving or communicate in any way with the members. The World is watching! Criminal and Civil court is where Justice may have to go to be obtained!
Thank you for giving an outsider some understanding on Mormon teaching. I had friends in childhood who were Mormons and some of the things they said really confused me.
Muslims are good people too. So are Jewish, so are Methodists, Germans and Russians . Hell...there are politicians (even Republican's) that are good. being good is not exclusive to a demographic. Being good is a an individual's choice!!!
Carah is so right, after Mormonism has been deconstructed there's also a kind of Spencer W Kimball right-wing worldview that starts to fall apart also. People definitely need understanding and compassion through all of this. I think there is a difference between a "right winger" and someone who has more conservative-leaning. Just like there is a different from a "left-winger" and someone who has liberal views. I have definitely found myself to be more liberal in my personal views after leaving Mormonism. One of my favorite quotes by Christopher Hitchens: "We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake. We do not hold our convictions dogmatically: the disagreement between Professor Stephen Jay Gould and Professor Richard Dawkins, concerning “punctuated evolution” and the unfilled gaps in post-Darwinian theory, is quite wide as well as quite deep, but we shall resolve it by evidence and reasoning and not by mutual excommunication." Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
The Miracle of Forgiveness was a bestseller because anybody who ever went to talk to the bishop about anything was sent home with a copy of the book. That way, if you weren’t sufficiently filled with guilt when you left, the book could finish you off.
I have been waiting to hear that "The Church" is creating canals for water in the Reservations for the different tribes in the southwest! Why are they NOT doing anything about this? Better than the mall in downtown SLC...
After a long time in Mormonism I've finally realized that the only way to truly live and be happy in this life is to be a Nephite on the streets and a Lamanite Between the Sheets....
Come on People ! Joseph Smith lied about the whole thing , Lehi as a man never existed there were no people called Lamanites how long are the Mormons going to believe this fairy tale
John L is the goat. Miss him so much. Hope he’s living his best life away from this mess. 3:17:20 John D. Mentions that John L. Discussed ethical non-monogamy. Did I miss that part?
LOVED this. Wanted to say though, a lot of evidence seems to point toward BH Roberts actually dying in Utah, not in rehab. I couldn't find any evidence that he died an alcoholic/in rehab/in California. Hopefully this is seen and John Larson could address that?
I love when I gave someone the princess bride book, they gave it back to me and said "But Goldman didn't even WRITE the book!" And I get to say"...there IS no S. Morganstern." Their faces are AMAZING. (As was mine when someone did it to me)
Haha...me at the beginning of this episode: "There is no S. Morganstern!" Me at the end of this episode: "Of course there was no S. Morganstern...he would have been an asshole if he WAS alive....oh who cares we are all gonna DIIIIIEEEE!" LOL
I’ve never seen John Dehlin laugh so hard. This was great! Super informative covering heavy complex material with a light and palatable tone. Would love to hear more from John Larson!
Thank you John for your call to action at the end there. It is good to transfer our time and money from wasteful practices to useful and worthwhile causes. I wanted to provide a different perspective, however anecdotal it may be, to your claim that if you haven't transferred them, that you have missed the point; and that is this: some people, myself included, gave more than should ever have been asked of us. My mental and physical health suffered until I was able to give up the yoke of the Mormon church (among other things). Only now, after many years of recovery, do I feel like I can move on and embrace your call to action. It's a good call to action, but must not be forced - only willingly taken up by those able at that time.
The connections between the modern militia/qanon/ prepper movements and the more conservative rasist morman culture I'm the Intermountain west run so much deeper than most people realize. JL touched on it a couple of times.
Started listening to this podcast style and had to come to RU-vid - didn't want to miss John Larsen's expressions...pun fully intended...but seriously, JL's face! Miss his podcast so much - his passion is contagious. Brilliant man.
In the 60s, the church said Cain was black. I heard rumors among the members that the Devil is Bigfoot. There were lots of rumors of people seeing the Three Nephites around Montana where I lived in Western Montana and Eastern Montana in college. I left the church 22 years ago, and the story started changing that we shouldn’t be listening to stories about seeing the Three Nephites. The last 22 years I don’t talk to many Mormons about religious matters. My Mormon rrelatives won’t debate with me.
Yup, CES-paid seminary instructor in 1997 taught us Cain was Bigfoot and dinosaur bones were put in the ground by Satan to test humans, and despite science, the earth was only 6000 years old. Nothing but nodding heads of agreement in that 300+ seminary class. You can’t make this stuff up. Like Carsh said, when no one corrects the record/doctrine, the Grandpas pass down “truth” … so fucking scary. 🤦🏻
@@jnicholes79 Yep, I can still remember my dad in the mid-60s to early 70s opining similar theories about dinosaur bones being billions of year's old because earth was created from parts of other planets that were billions of year's old. He thought dinosaur bones were billions of year's old, but the materials were used to create the earth 6,000 years ago. This solved the problem of the earth being created 6,000 years ago but testing billions of years old. He also opined that blacks were not descendants of Adam and Eve. That was his main explanation why it was OK for himself and others to be racist. I graduated from high school in 1971, and Mormons around that time where I lived in Montana didn't deny that Mormons were racist.. Today, the Mormons think prophets, especially Brigham Young, who we're racists were “speaking as a man and not as a prophet.”
Mormon seminary is just a Sunday school class for Mormon high school students that happens every school day (before or during High School), instead of at church on Sunday.
This discussion is fantastic. A tip for the future, try to level the volume for the mics, as John Larsen's mic is very quiet. I have to turn the volume up when he's speaking, and then back down when everyone else is speaking.
The ancient Hebrews believed that the Egyptians were descendants of Mizraim, a son of Ham. Joseph Smith diverged from the Bible when he decided to make the Egyptians the descendants of Egyptus, a daughter of Ham. The Bible and Joseph are both wrong about the Egyptians' origins, but Joseph misattributes the curse of Canaan to the Egyptians (in addition to the Canaanites), where the Bible only attributes the curse to the Canaanites.
@@davidjanbaz7728 "The Biblical text supports Old Earth Creationism". Right. And the Bible is wrong. The earth is 4.5 billion years old, homo sapiens have been on this earth for at least 150,000 years, Egypt was first settled in 5500 BCE, and was a unified state by 3100 BCE. Egyptians were not descendants of a single ancestor named Ham.
@@davidjanbaz7728 there was no global flood. The patriarchs are fictional characters. There was no Exodus. There was no Canaanite conquest. The Bible is fiction.
Hi, I think John Larsen is a great guy, fun to listen to, smart, well informed in his field. I really enjoyed this podcast! Thank you! I've worked with a lot of great people who have been well educated... Many PhD, many with multiple degrees. Most take license from their fields of study making claims outside their fields. Usually in a form of reasoning that appears rational to them and others. To notice people making incorrect claims out of their field, one must also be educated and experienced. I don't comment when I observe it, I simply smile. When i observe it, I think its just human nature trying to answer a question! It rationalizes an unknown answer, fills the gap so people can move on. But it also closes a door to finding the right answer. As its not my job to judge, or correct, I usually just smile. Sometimes the answers are beyond our reach because our minds aren't open to them. An well educated older in-laws used to end conversations with me by saying, don't bother me with the truth, my mind is already made up! It was always hilarious, but always true. If truth escapes us, it might be that our minds are already made up on the matter... We're satisfied we already know the answer and have moved on...human nature! Great program, Best Wishes
Mormon Doctrine was I quoted it in every talk I gave as a youth. Quit going to church and came back and wanted to buy a copy and it was nowhere to be found!
I know a lot of this was jokes and very funny, but I just want to say … Thank you for your Passion of sharing again how Racist, hurtful, disgusting some of these Mormon teachings are ! I just wanted to say that part was powerful, this brought me to tears. The church has had so many opportunities to Disavow, apologize for the things said about “black “skin and they don’t, they try to sweep it under the rug. This brings me to my knees and is Very troubling
The sad part about it is every prophet and every apostle and every member of the congregation that came up out of Egypt we're all black people Moses Joseph of Egypt Paul and Jesus we're all black people right along with the 12 tribes of Israel all are black people
John Larson makes you think weather you agree or not. That broadening of perspective is needed so like pres Nelson said myopic. You can't make informed decisions without all viewpoints given time.
Some of the down voters are conservative exmos disappointed in his left leaning and political angle included in the discussion. His podcast and he can do it as he wishes is my perspective.
@@mormonstories when the guy said Satan doesn't appear in the Bible until the book of JOB,that's totally false because it was Satan who Eve was talking to not no snake, Satan is the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil
I love this. Very validating. Perhaps this information could be put in one of your understanding Mormonism videos, a little more palatable for tbms lol
When John said ham had a daughter named Caina all I could think was ham telling Noah,” and this is my daughter caina,”and then 10 foot cain dressed as a lady just goes “hehehe” in his best girls voice and sneaks on the boat. 😂
Well done Mr. Larsen, I’m sorry I’m 8 months late to this particular episode. If what you are saying sounds like a “prophet” than all humans can be prophetic in this way. Love for humanity and the planet is not prophetic though as we know, love, common sense and conscience is free for us all, and nothing to do with divine inspiration which you rightly call bullshit. I appreciate your delivery and I applaud you in the most humble way.
John to believe that we are all flawed IS the problem. When children are taught they are broken within the 1st 7 years... that goes right in the HUMAN HARD DRIVE = SUBCONSCIOUS MIND. PEOPLE ACT THE WAY THEY BELIEVE(BELIEVE = BE LIE or "be a lie").
This is so great! Please, John L., do a video for each item on your top 10! Years ago, I paid $10 or so for the entire Mormon Expression library as your take was exactly what I was looking for. Infants filled the void for a while, but I can’t get enough of your thoughts on Mormon history.
Wow! 2:36:50 Imagine what could be accomplished with so much human potential re-directed away from dead end treadmills. How much time did I spend on study, prayer, and worship? What if I spent it doing something for others instead?
I think that is a common theme of all cults. "Think of how much god we could do if we would put all that effort, enthusiasm and sacrifices that we put into this church".
John, thank you for not staying away from these topics. Please don't be afraid to get a little political. When climate science and the denial of it has been politicized, that's an issue of truth and of real world consequences. Your position is exactly what it should be. These aren't just abstractions. There are real world consequences. Please continue to call things out.
