Correction: The 10th Doctor after The Stolen Earth isn’t a separate incarnation but still a used regeneration. Meaning the doctor has had 16 incarnations.
There was also an omission of the time River gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations. They never addressed the long term effects of that. But then again, Doctor Who doesn't have an official canon. Continuity is whatever you (as a viewer, a writer, or whomever you might be) can remember and choose to acknowledge at any given time. With the timeline being in flux, any apparent contradiction can be explained away as not being a fixed point. The Doctor's human mother? Not a fixed point. The Scream of the Shalka Doctor? Not a fixed point. The Timeless Child? Could be anyone as far as the timeline is concerned. "Ruth's" placement in the timeline? What timeline? This is Doctor Who. We don't do canon here.
When the Second Doctor (Pat Troughton) says this bit at the beginning of the video about his lost family "...sleep in my mind" always brings a tear to my eyes. So many who have gone on before me, they sleep in my mind and are a joy to revisit. Sometimes when you dream of seeing your father or sister, it's like a gift to be with them again. I love this show for it's deep thoughfulmess.
River Song being Amy & Rory's Daughter means Amy is The Doctor's Mother in law .. The Doctor Marrying Elizabeth the First, and Amy accidentally marrying Henry VIII, means Amy is the Doctor's mother in law ... again ...
i really hope rtd finds a way to revert the timeless child (possibly using the celestial toymaker?), cause the timelords and doctor already had an established backstory that did not need to be changed into something so rubbish
Nah it super simple just say the master was wrong. Still leaves that as a different way regeneration was created but that alternative timelord origin isn't the issue I have with the timeless child. The timeless child existing isn't the issue it's making the doctor it. Makes the character super important and significant because of what they are not who they are.
i have two possible ideas of how it could be reverted: 1) just make the master the timeless child and he made the doctor think she was it because idk the masters just weird like that. keeps the doctor as being just some guy who helps out of the goodness of their heart and not out of obligation being the chosen one (do remember how the first story ever had the doctor almost deck a caveman over the head with a rock), and its a neat subversion having the chosen one turn out to be a complete twat (most of the time at least). or 2) make it a toymaker illusion thing that was there to fuck with the doctor (second one is the most likely one if its gonna be reverted in the 60th). also i hope they bring back gallifrey so the doctor doesnt have to be grieving them and they can be back and the doctor can go back to being mostly just a goofy adventurer like classic who cause his entire species isnt dead
@@something1600 My headcanon is that there are time-sensitive, non-corporeal creatures, living strands of energy, that reside inside the time vortex itself. The Timeless Child was one that simply got curious and manifested a physical form to enter this universe. Since their body is just a construct of living energy, they can rebuild it if it becomes mortally wounded, hence regeneration. The Timelords took this ability in particular, to break down and rebuild their physical form, and in doing so became time sensitive as well. River being born with Timelord DNA could be explained as her being exposed to this living energy at the moment of conception, inside the Time Vortex. It keeps in line with the idea that exposure to the Time Vortex gives you the ability to regenerate, in this instance via prolonged contact to these creatures. It would also explain why Rassilon saw it fit to destroy the physical universe and for the Time Lords to become beings of consciousness alone at the end of the Time War. He and Tecteun would have known about these creatures from the start and he would see it as the next step in the Time Lords' natural evolution.
River also got with Cleopatra which is why Twelve went “Same thing” in retort to River calling him out about her This was mentioned for the first time in the aborted timeline in the series 6 finale River: “Hallucinogenic Lipstick; Works wonders on president Kennedy, and Cleopatra was a REAL pushover.” Eleven: “I always thought so…” River: “She mentioned you!” Eleven: “Really? What did she say?” River: “Put down that gun.” Eleven: “Did you?” River: “Eventually 💅”
I still stand with the idea that if they REALLY wanted to do a timeles child arc it should have been the master. Woud 1: really build upon the threat they pose having unlimited regenerations and 2: be absolutely in character for him to try to convince the doctor that THEY are the timeless child Knowing they arnt. Also tracks with how he with what seems like little effort basically glassed Gallifrey
I like that idea. 👍 As far as I can see, though, he just walked in and told the Doctor he'd destroyed their entire species - and she just believed him?! WHY???? I mean, it's not like he's ever been untrustworthy or anything, right? It's not like he's mad or anything? 🙄
No, the Master being the Timeless Child causes more complications. The Master left his original body, back in old Who, because it was dying and out of regenerations.
@@jacquesmassard9226 No, when I said he left his original body. I don't mean he regenerated. I literally mean he left his body. His current body was another living being, that he took over. Not at all the same thing as simply being given more regenerations.
My head-canon: The Timeless Child was genetically re-engineered into having a 13-body cycle, just as the Shobogans were re-engineered into their 13-body cycles...because Rassilon is a party pooper when it comes to immortality. The Master and The pre-Doctor have been resurrected multiple times after death by the Time Lords (probably every few million years, with very limited memories and planted into surrogate families) when they need some dirty deeds done with plausible deniability. Except recently they both became renegades... The Eighth Doctor (only) is half-human, because somewhere in the Doctor's genetic history are some Human genes that got recycled during a regeneration. This genetic material is probably on his mother's side, but who knows (no pun intended) if he really knows. The thought of it certainly freaked the 12th Doctor out... (PS Pav - good stuff covered so far)
In the Doctor's Wife we see the TARDIS as fully sentient and having a close relationship with the doctor which I think should put the TARDIS as a family member, all be it one without an easy human equivelent, somewhere between mutual adoption, pet, home, and wife. We can also look into instances of the Doctor traveling with a minor such as Victoria and Vicki as The Doctor "adopting" them and becoming their parental figure, at least temporalily. And any pet's the doctor had like the K9's and Handels
There is another televised canon incarnation of the doctor who is Doctor Moon from silence in the library/forest of the dead, played by Colin Salmon. I believe Moffat confirmed he is the last incarnation of the Doctor. Also I'm not if you are considering it expanded media, but Amy and Rory had more kids and at least some grandchildren, which is shown through the short called 'P.S'
@pavlow124 I'd hold off on that, Moffett described Dr. Moon being the 45th Doctor as something he liked to think, but that he never included in the story at any point.
Also, I don't hear anyone saying this but a variation of "I am the Doctor" plays in Silence in the Library when Doctor Moon explains to the little girl that she could save everyone trapped in the library.
The 10th doctor did mention his father was the one that was human, and was a clock maker; his mother was galleyfreyian. Note 1: Considering we now know that regeneration can change the gender of time lord, many terms of ‘gender’ in family relationship becomes relative to the gender the time lord was at the time of a story reference than a fixed term. Note 2: The Doctor lies. Which means, many of the self claimed references the Doctor says could be a lie. Only way a to find the truth is consistency of how many times the Doctor refers to a family member, that we have had it confirmed on screen (Susan), or that another Time Lord confirms it.
it would only make sense if she were a 'damaged' future doctor. But then when has dr who ever had continuity that makes sense. Or worse from a different timeline.
The Tardis has a psychic link to the Doctor, so could choose that form at will.. And the Ruth Doctor traveling in time knows what form the Tardis will be in the future, so could have adjusted the camouflage before hibernating her.
@@AngelaH2222 - The doctor knowing his own and by extension the Tardis's future -- is a bit too pre-determined, and kind of undermines discovery and not knowing things. We think we know the Tardis 's timeline from when she stole the doctor from galifrey. And if the chameleon circuit wasnt broken it would presumably automatically disguise itself for the time period. If Ruth is a precious doctor (presumably before she was the doctor), then she could have somehow stolen the Tardis from a future Self, and not know her future selves..... Personally i still think she more likely a future doctor possibly with a memory damaged by a temporal paradox, makes far more sense. The Chibnal/jodie era destroyed far too much. And marvel like alternate timelines are just lazy writing.
@@pavlow124idk we refer to our favourite doctors like that... For example " doctor 9 is fantastic and I absolutely love doctor 10!" Same person but we refer to them like they're not haha
@@kristianhappy5069 We refer to them that way, Time Lords tend not. While it's certainly still possible that those different Grannies are different regenerations of the same grandparent, I think it's just as likely that the Doctor has lots of Grandparents
@@TheRandomGuyTheFarNoGameCat thanks, I've just thought the drs granny could have had male incarnations after her first 7 incarnations that sounds way better than 'something happend'
Great Video.....Nomatter the ""TV show canon"" I dont count the Timless Children BS. I stick to the original version of their backstory, planed for the 7th Doctor, back in the 80s. Yes it has many plotpoints of "TC" but TC was just a very bad fan fiction. In the original version (told many times by Sylvester McCoy and hinted on multiple points during the last series before cancelation) It was planed to explore the Doctors early life. The Timelord culture, as we all know, was founded by 3 omnipotent Beings. Rassilon (the one with the power to regenerate), Omega, the (mad) scientist (with the knowlege of timetravel) and "the Other" the weapon designer and the one who had to create Omegas visions. They ruled for many years, like gods. (When Ace asked the Doctor, in rememberece of the Daleks, if the old Timelord really been so much more powerfull the Doctors answers "Oh back in the days, we did many things .... uhm...i mean, THEY did" and later that season when the vilain askes Ace "Do you know what the Doctor is?" Ace said "He is a Timelord" and the vilain shook her head.) However... After many years the Others could no longer handle this kind of life, because they had seen how the two best friends became corrupted by power. So he left the god-like life and regenerated into the Child, that would become the first Doctor. When creating a new identity wasnt enough anymore, at about 200 years old, the Doctor took his granddaughter and left (and here the series kicks in) Also, we dont know when the Fugetive-Doctor fits. The best place for her still is season 6B. For all who dont know, season 6B is a never produced season, between season 6 (1969) and season 7 (1970) the theory is this.... In his last regular episode "War Games" the 2nd Doctor is standing trial. The Timelords are sick of his meddling and order a forced regeneration. However we never see a regeneration, the next thing we see, is the 3rd Doctor falling out of the Tardis. This is were season 6B comes in....So when the 2nd Doctor was on trial, the Timelords offered him a deal. Work for them and do as they say. This is later somewhat confirmed, when (in the two Doctors) the 6th Doctor asks a very old 2nd Doctor how he got a remote controlled Tardis, and the 2nd Doctors says "Oh you get this when you are working for them" and the 6th Doctor is shocked to hear that he would work for the Timelords. (BTW the next time, the Doctor has a Tardis remote is during the Timewar, when the War-Doctor works for them). After many jobs for the C.I.A. (clestial intervention ageny) the 2nd Doctor dies of old ag and regenerates at least once. He regenerated into the Fugetive Doctor. This would fit, because Ruth is also working for the Timelords CIA and the 13th Doctor is also shocked. So, now as the Fugetive-Dctor, she again tries to outrun the Timelords (as seen in S12E5) at some point, the Timelords got hold of her and NOW executed the forced regeneration and she regenerated into Pertwee. His mind was wiped and reset to the events of War-Games. (This would also explain, why, in the two Doctors, the 2nd Doctor still is with Jamie and how he can remember events past War-Games) But we have to wait until 2024, when Big Finish releases the "Fugetive Doctor Box-Set"
I hope the whole "The Doctor is the Timeless Child" thing gets retconned. The faster the better. It can be a Toymacker deception or a lie from The Master or something else. I do not care as long as this idiocy is NOT the Doctor I also hope Chibbys (pukes) career is dead and gone forever after what he did to Doctor Who. I have never ever wanted an actor, musician, writer, producer Etc. gone from public view before. Normally i go by "live and let live" but not with this hack of a man. I don't want him hurt in any way BUT please don't let him destroy anything else. Let his career die. Let us collectively forget his "work" ever existed
I always assumed the doctor and the master were orphans. This theory explains: -The doctor having many brothers and sisters that they were never in contact with, -The doctor having multiple grandmothers and therefore many parents -The doctor not knowing their lineage, they could have been told they were half human in order to explain why they were not like other gallifreyans, -The scene where a nine year old master was forced to look into the time vortex surrounded by old men, and the doctor said it happened to them too, -The doctor having no connection with their parents, -The dead old woman the doctor found as a child makes more sense if they lived with many other people than if they lived in a nuclear family, -The doctor was defiantly an orphan given the whole timeless child retcon -The sisterhood of karn can be explained as a convent/girls school, -The doctor and the master giving themselves new names and not having last names. -Finally, and this is a bit of a stretch, the doctor was a teacher on earth and could have also been a teacher on Gallifrey at the same orphanage they went to, Susan could have been their blood family but could also just be a student who they really liked. Since the kids in the orphanage didn't have parents they called their teachers/guardians mum and dad, with the siblings of those teachers being aunt and uncle, while the older faculty were granddad and grandma. EDIT: The Doctor keeping their cot seems a bit weird unless it was the only possession they were left with from what they thought was their real parents.
Doctor Who is the only fiction where the fans are expected to take the villain’s word on the hero’s exposition. Every other work of fiction would have The Valeyard and the Timeless child be lies told to manipulate the Doctor. Whether it’s The Master or Tecteune or the swarm, only villains have told the Doctor that he is The Valetard or the Timeless Child. But the words out of the Doctor’s mouth, that he’s half human, on his mother’s side, is completely dismissed. Why is it that we’re supposed to believe anything the villains say about The Doctor and nor supposed to believe what The aDoctor says?
@@legendswarble2845 we don’t just have the villain’s word for it. First, Luke feels the connection, with the force. Second, Yoda and Ben confirm the information.
@jesseszymcik3026 And the Doctor met Tecteun, found the watch, was called out as a Timeless Child by other beings, and saw the existence of their locked away memories.
@@legendswarble2845 The Doctor didn’t open the watch and everyone that called the Doctor The Timeless Child was a villain. Surely, you aren’t considering Tecteun to not be a villain.
@jesseszymcik3026 Everyone who said the Doctor was Gallifreyan was also a villain or informed by a villain, so... I mean, surely you wouldn't consider the High Council of Gallifrey to not be villains. (Let's be real, though. This whole "it came from a villain so it's wrong" thing is so flimsy. Just say you don't like it and move on. Let's not forget, Missy was also the one to inform the Doc that Gallifrey was back. I didn't like that one myself, but I didn't deny it because it came from her.)
There is no point in looking for logic and continuity in DW when the writers were making it up as they went along to suit the story they were wrting at the time.
The whole timeless child thing is completely wack. I don't consider that bull crap canonical in the slightest. When bad writing ruins a character, I feel it's alright to sorta pick and choose what's cannon (when possible).
The 50th Anniversary told us of a future version of the Doctor is "The Curator" whom also regenerated back into an older version of the 4th Doctor. He told the 11th Doctor that he WILL revisit some of his old faces. In the episode "Time of the doctor" showed the 1st Doctor take the Tardis because Clara told them which one to take. And as she went through the vortex she was with each Doctor due to the interfere of the Great intelligence. This means one of two things. The Fugitive Doctor must be a future Doctor or an alternate reality Doctor seeing as in their first appearance the 13th Doctor found the Fugitive Doctors buried Tardis which also is a Police box.
@@BenNightHoundI personally find it to be kinda dumb. Weather it makes sense isn't important I really hate making the doctor important because of what they are rather than who they are.
@@Aneurin_Hunt they're not really that important though, they're a victim of child abuse/experimentation - I think that's the more important thing than what their powers led to
I will never accept the Timeless Child. The Doctor is a Time Lord, period. I hate the idea that The Doctor is not a time lord, stolen...put into a form of slavery...etc etc............ITS BULLSHYT
The “ Timeless Child “ and “ Fugitive Doctor “ destroyed the 60 year backstory of the Doctor Who show . It should be written out of the Doctor Who cannon .
Indeed, however, it just needs a writer to just say in a story, that the Master was winding the doctor up. I do like the idea of the time lords using an alien species to gain regeneration, but it shouldn't have been the doctor.. it should have been the master... Which would explain why his heated them.. far better story line.
Nah it's just an addition to stuff we already knew. "Canon" doesn't exist, guys. It's all in your head. It's a marketing ploy made to get people to buy spin-offs and tie-ins. It's not real.
@@cag9284Or it’s neither of them, and the only way to get enough genetic material to give all of the Timelords regenerative powers was to basically splice bits of her into them, so that every timelord is the Timeless Child-and none of them are.
Not really because The Doctors past has always been part of an mystery that he himself doesn't fully know. It was always a thing where he was probably the mysterious Other whos name was forgotten hidden on purpose one of the founders of time lord society. The other or the doctor has also has his probable origin from another universe. And he also might have went into his family loom and came out years later as the child who would become The Doctor also contaminated the family loom by jumping into it in such a way that lots of time lords who came out of that loom where rebels. Then he steals a tradis accidentally gos back in time on galiffray which is against the law and meets Susan who recognizes him and calls him grandfather. They end up traveling together on accident and he embrace her as his granddaughter even though its all strange but what has his life been but strange and it was nice to have family. And hes on the run from the timelords because he broke the law. But so much mystery about his past and what he does or doesn't remember. And its all driped all over in the books and the old TV show. So the Timeless child didn't destroy anything it actually added to that old storyline tread that's been present in old who and the Fugitive doctor is just part of the doctors unknown past.
Very good video, breaking down a complex subject into something more manageable. I love the complicated and mysterious nature of the Doctor’s family and the many interpretations of it. Personally, I don’t consider the Tenth Doctor to be two different incarnations since a change of appearance didn’t occur in The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End and the Doctor makes it fairly clear that he just used the energy to heal himself which therefore counted as a regeneration being used up. But I do agree with placing the Meta-Crisis Doctor separately on the family tree since I see him more as a clone or “relative” of the Doctor than an incarnation. Keep up the great work and I look forward to part 2!
Thanks! I only considered 10 after Stolen earth a separate incarnation as the 11th Doctor was the final incarnation in the first cycle, and my constant thinking of incarnations and regenerations being relative. I’ll change that for part 2.
So the possibility of The Doctor being half human is briefly floated in Hell Bent by Me so it hasn't been completely forgotten but has since been retconned by the timeless child. Though there's still a possibilty of them being "adopted" by a timelord/human couple after their memory wipe who they believed to be their biological parents. The woman we see in The End of Time could be The Doctor's human mother as she might have integrated into time lord society and even granted a regeneration cycle which we know is possible thanks to River.
I am a massive Doctor Who fan, I've been following the show since the David Tennant years, and followed a good chunk of classic Who. But even then I have to disagree with the title of the video, because the distinction of the most complex family tree in fiction goes to Netflix's Dark. It's not even a tree, it's just a winding circle (for those who know, you know).
I stopped watching at the end of Peter Capaldi, tenure as they ruined it when they turned him into a transsexual freak, as if there weren't any female timelords in existence such as Romana who travelled with Tom Baker's Dr, and even regenerated whilst travelling with him, modern film and television series makers just want destroy everything with political correctness and woke nonsense, I only tolerated Peter Capaldi's Dr, because Clara, was in it, no reason to carry on watching by destroying his sex and turning him into a woman, they should've made a spin-off featuring a female timelord like they dud with Torchwood and the Sarah Jane Adventures, instead of destroying Dr Who, with the PC Woke Claptrap
It's interesting to know that even long before the Last Great Time War, there's a mysterious separation with his family. As if even before Unearthly Child, some big family tragedy occured
I think the grey/summers tree from the X-men is a lot more complex, as it has two core members, lots of kids with time heads, half aliens, and several alternate reality members.
Mentioning all these family members doesn't mean that 1: They're biologically related and/or 2: It's not just the Dr spouting nonsense and/or misremembered memories
Should also add Doctor Moon from silence in the library. It was confirmed that he intended to make him the 44th (or whatever number it was) doctor, but never explained it in the episode (just like the woman in the end of time).
I have a fan theory about the Doctor losing one of his children during the Great Time War. This child of the Doctor was a member of the Military. The child had decided to sacrifice his or her life to save the Doctor because he is more important than hum/her. To any parent, the loss of any child before they died is a tragic event. The loss of one of his children had deeply effected the Doctor off and on until the Day of the Doctor. After seeing so many children, adults and soldiers during the Battle of Arcadia, the Doctor decided that he had enough of the war. Oddly after the Doctor had saved Galifrey, he had regenerated. After his 9th regeneration, the Doctor had partial amnesia due to PSTD. One of the events which the Doctor lost his memory of was how he saved Galifrey
The timeless child story shouldn't have been the Doctor, it would have made more sense if it was the Master, thats why he/she became evil, because of what the time lords did.
@@Bobithan_Bobby_Bob_XXVII_Jr Like that's so important. What's the point of setting up a mystery if you don't intend to ever give any answers? Also, I thought the "mystery" behind the Doctor lies in questions like "what is his real name?" "why did he leave Gallifrey?" "What was his life like before he left?", things like that. The Timeless Child stuff doesn't answer any of that, it just gives us new questions about a completely different person who just happens to become the Doctor later on. That mystery of the Doctor that the fandom is so obsessively in love with remains intact.
The only way the Timeless Child arc fits in to continuity is if the Master accessed genuine archival footage on the topic and somehow incorrectly concluded his old schoolmate was the mythical figure. Our Doctor is still a half-human who didn't fit in to his society.
The doctor is a pioneer amongst his own people He's also the other a founder of timeward society That hold the doctor is an outcast thing is straight up Denying Like a majority of the series Like the doctor was a pioneer before he was a time lord Is literally he mentions the pioneer stuff in the daleks The second ever episode
@@piggerald2105He is half human, he is the other He is the timelest child he is doctor who are human from the future What do you know the guy who fought in multiple time Wars has a time line that makes no goddamn sense
Given that A: Canon is Soup, even in the show and B: Nobody knows where the child came from, either it's not a big issue or a Time Lord/Human hybrid from the Other World was dropped through a Universal Rift and became the Timeless Child
I’m aware that it isn’t stated that she’s the 16th incarnation, I only went by the matrix break scene towards the end of the Timeless Children. In the next part I’ll just say she’s a future incarnation.
I have a head-canon that the Doctor’s Father travel the universe and have his own human companion who later becomes a Time Lord and his wife, because I remember correctly; humans can become Time Lord (Of course, my fun head canon)
And if we include john smith and the fact that we know real life, actor man david tenant Probably exists in university because harry potter exists and he was in those movies That's 5
A very good video but your counting of the Doctors incarnations is out by quiet a bit. Can I Please why have you have chose to disregard the 'Morbius' Doctors as revealed in the battle between the 4th Doctor & Morbius in "Doctor Who - The Brain of Morbius" at the very least you must must add in the Morbius Doctors who came before the Fugitive Doctor and have been shown on screen if in photos taking the total of Doctors up-to 32 regenerations including the Timeless Children.
The script writers are always thinking of setting things up for future storylines..I suspect that the Timeless child plot is inserted as a possible way to finish the Dr Who series... ((A Doctor in child form, and no memory, gifted with multiple incarnations, perhaps given by the dieing Tardis is thrown through a time-arch➡a paradox required for the Time Lords to evolve on Gallifray)) It would be the ultimate ego-project of a script writer to have a hand in a Dr Who story which is written long after they retire..
You're giving too much credence to throw away lines and passing comments 👎 the doctor is an unreliable narrator, consider that maybe like you or I he occasionally makes things up on the spur of the moment, tells stories or lies simply to amuse himself and others, so nothing said in the moment can be relied on as definite truth, especially when like so many of these it's an off the cuff flippant remark or aside.
One of Rivers wife's in Professor Bernice Surprise Summerfield, so it gets weirder, there's a half human half dog alien man and he's the normal one. The Clones, robots, Aliens, liveing houses and time machines come later. Looking at bits like the Smith Lethbrige-Stewat connection, that get wild.
Do you know about the time the doctors wife's adopted mother (the tardis) had a child with a shape changing robot (Kamelion) that was a double of Peri. ?
It will make perfect sense in a big reveal in the very last ever final episode of Doctor Who, when a paradox arises and The Doctor has to go back in time to create the Time Lord abilities...The Ultimate Boot Strap Paradox😊...I wonder if we'll be alive to see the final show,,, ?
There's no such thing as canon, dude. It's all made up. It's a marketing tactic invented by media companies to make you buy spin-offs and tie-ins. That's what kept Star Wars alive in the 90s and it had the side effect of turning the Star Wars fandom into a continuity-obsessed hellscape. Let's keep words like "canon" and "continuity" away from Doctor Who, it's better off without it.
Before watching this video, I was going to ask if you either did not know about Anne Rice's Mayfairs, or if you did not consider them fiction, 'cause sweet Lords of Cube Roots, _that's_ an impressive mess of a cypress for a family... um... 'tree,' but after watching this video, well, I guess the Doctor's family tree isn't really any more branched than the Mayfairs, but it does seem to involve more species. Can't wait for part two.
It’s definitely a title used to grab attention. Is it the number one most complex family tree in fiction? maybe, maybe not. But it’s the most I know and I’m sure it’s up there.
