More of my videos are hitting the algorithm, which means more comments, which means more hate comments about the current run of the show, and I have no interest in letting that toxic echo chamber spread to these comments, so I've set the comments to require approval. If you've just come here to comment that the Timeless Children story doesn't fit the canon lore, even though I've demonstrated the contrary in this video, don't bother. As the Doctor said: "If you're going to deny it, don't waste my time. Just shut up."
What if the timeless child was the end of the Doctor without their memory? The Time Lords recharged him (Smith/Capaldi) and Capaldi Doctor said he's not sure how many times he'll regenerate. If they decide to actually end the show they could have him regenerate into the girl and fall through the gateway.
never realised how funny 11's regeneration is if you cut out the crack. Just looks like he regenerated out of spite for the Daleks talking about regeneration cycles
I’ve always like the idea that the Doctor tried to live each life to his fullest, as is shown by the melt down 10 started to have, but the Master just threw them away like candy and was on 13 by the time the Doctor was on 4.
I always got the impression that while the Doctor who to settle down and start a family, The Master was exiled and was a renegade tine lord long before and while The Doctor lived peacefully on Galifrey The Master got up to all sorts and burnt through most of his regenerations.
he still went through them quite fast, it's shown in Time of the Doctor (I think that's the name) that he can live to about 1000 with each regeneration, and yet, by his 4th regeneration, he was only 700
The idea of The Timeless Child is not a bad one whatsoever. It would explain how The Time Lords came to be, and how they are able to grant The Master and The Doctor an extra cycle of 12 regenerations, because they decide what limits are put in place and can clearly change these at will. The ONLY problem I have is that the Doctor SHOULD NOT be the timeless child. It completely takes away so much of the weight of past iterations, past death experiences, past pains etc.
How in the world do you rationalise that? If the Timeless Child were to be someone else, there would be no point in doing the story at all. It enhances the Doctor, it doesn't take anything away
@@PenneySounds How can you not rationalise that? The doctor being the timeless child means there's practically no stakes, no death, no danger and no threat to the character we are following That's how characters and ultimately show's begin to stagnate The hero's journey trope that everyone is taught in school explains that without stakes there isn't growth or consequence Only stagnation I mean how boring would a piece of media like Star Wars, or even games like Fallout be if you knew 100% that the character you follow/play as won't go through anything meaningful or in opposition to the character Without stakes like that show's like this lose viewer's The timeless child being the doctor is like trying to take a myth or legend, and then add another myth or secret super hidden legend into it It's overkill
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 Everything you just said is no more valid now than it's been since regeneration was introduced in 1966. Regeneration doesn't mean the show has no stakes.
@@PenneySounds I disagree. The Doctor was limited to 12 regenerations and so each lethal encounter and subsequent regeneration brought him/her closer to a final death. Now that the Doctor is "far more than any other time Lord" with seemingly unlimited regenerations the stakes have definitely been lowered. If you like the timeless child story, that's all good but it just feels like a misstep to me.
@@GuapoLechuga That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. As if there was ever any chance that the Doctor was going to have a final death. And I don't see you complaining about Capaldi's incarnation existing
In the end, I prefer the Doctor to be just a renegade Time Lord with secrets of history their society never wants the universe to learn or else it will unravel the very fabric of reality. So we don't know who they are or every reason why they ran, to the point their mind can't and won't remember it because they rather move forward and help the universe their way. Still, the show has always liked to dance around this topic a lot
@@MichaelO2000 okay that is a problem of definitions so i think the best example is thus: a duck finds a blujay all by itself and brings it back to the rest of it's flock, all the members of the flock take the bluejay's shed feathers and stick them to themselves and start calling themselves blue eagles, the first bluejay forgets it was a bluejay and starts calling itself a blue eagle instead question: are they a blue eagle? answer: yes and no, no in the sense that they were born a bluejay and did nothing to change their biology or physiology, but also yes in the sense that blue eagle is a chosen name (like all names) and they chose it
You can be born in one country and have different nationalities so why can't the DOCTOR be raised as a so called TIMELORD who are just the rich lot of GALLIFREY (even ROBIN HOOD knew that)
Don't get me wrong I know that none of this stuff is actually hints of the "Timeless Child", they were just hints at the mystery of "The Doctor" but it is an interesting and well thought out bit of research. Good spot on the fact that "Shobogan" was not first mentioned during the Masters speech in the Matrix. I did not catch that before.
Several of the hints were originally written to be past incarnations, the morbius doctors were originally meant to be past incarcerations of the doctor (with the twist being that 4th doctor was actually the 13th) and the plan for the 7th doctor was to reveal that they were a reincarnation of the other, a timelord who worked alongside omega and rassilon to create time travel, regeneration and timelord society. Most of the timeless child was just taking those loss plot threads and finishing them (although way more in line with the 80s plan than the 70s one).
No i'm going to get you wrong. 11 was around 900. Yet a previous doctor accidentally said "thousands of years" while none of these clips were hints leading to 13s run, 13 did explore the story from all those pieces of info making it seem like it was hinted at. It would make sense if it was 1 writer who planned it for years, but all the little pieces of info was hinting at what would be a story about the timeless child. Its just wether they would tell it or not
@@SpiderPanda Three indicating that he had been a scientist for thousands of years, and Seven indicating that he was more than just an ordinary Time Lord can't have been them hinting at the Timeless Child, because neither of them *knew* about the Timeless Child. Seven was hinting at something (the unrealised 'Cartmel Masterplan'), but that reveal would've been different to what became the Timeless Child reveal. The difference in ages between Three and Four is presumably just a continuity error (which Moffat later tried to handwave away as another instance of 'the Doctor lies'). The Timeless Child reveal doesn't contradict established canon. It also doesn't line up well enough with these instances for them to be specifically foreshadowing that reveal.
@@SpiderPanda Was it ever really confirmed that 11 was around 900 since Nine also said he was 900. In my opinion the Doctor's either lying about his age or he forgot his age.
@@nathanmurdoch5253 Yeah, it's clear that sometimes the Doctor just forgets their age and decides to just continue counting from some random high number, while other times the Doctor just sorta decides to restart the count because so much has changed or whatever. Like, the age in New Who seems to be consistent as long as it started during the Time War.
While I do think the Timeless Children story works generally, I do think that William Hartnell not being the first "Doctor" is kinda meanspirited, even unintentionally. It is a big trend nowadays to delete what came before when people get their hands on the property.
@@PenneySounds I don't think that is possible. The comics apparently parroted the intention of what they were going with the story and confirmed the Fugitive Doctor as one of the first incarnations. But, maybe something will change their mind, but that would shaft the comics division as they were said to be part of the true canon. I guess we just have to stay tuned for that new special or whatever Davies has planned.
The comics and audios are just guessing at this point. But the Fugitive traveling in a police box TARDIS places her after the scene where Clara's afterimage directs the First Doctor and Susan to a very much not yet police box TARDIS
@@PenneySounds Oh definitely, but what is intended is not always what makes sense. Recent media has taught me that quite harshly. Hopefully you are right.
This kinda made me accept the timeless children SLIGHTLY more The origin of gallfirey makes sense but I juts dislike how, the child is the Doctor and not the master..i mean it would make more sense The Masters histroy is so wonky he literally comes back for no reason
Hopefully the upcoming special will reveal the part everybody seems to be missing: the fact that there were two children. But it would make zero sense if the Doctor wasn't one of those children. It's the whole point of the story.
here's my headcanon (which I definitely will make cannon if/when I get to write DW): Ruth's the Timeless Child. She finds out, decides to take down Gallifrey in revenge, possibly helps Daleks in the Time War, fails because of the Doctor, gains hatred towards her, pretends to be the Doctor, alters the Matrix, convinces the Master the Timeless Child is the Doctor, tricks him into destroying Gallifrey, cloaks herself as human to avoid detection, jumps in the action when she gains memory, already has a TARDIS look like the Doctor's to sell the illusion, and, ultimately, wins.
@@anatine_banana_69 Ruth was a fictional character made up by the Doctor to hide as using a chameleon arch, just like John was, so I assume that by Ruth you mean the Fugitive Doctor, in which case yes, she is the Timeless Child, because she is the Doctor.
These aren’t subtle hints, it’s just re-contextualising good writing. “Such a lonely childhood” gives us so much about the Doctor’s background and how this can be later reflected upon by their choices and motivations
What I want to know now is how powerful is the Doctor's Daughter, Jenny. She was never given a limited batch of regenerations. She's the same species that the Doctor is and has the capacity for infinite regenerations.
actually, i recently rewatched the episode, and she actually doesn't regenerate at all, the terraforming device is what healed her. if you look at her pseudo-regeneration scene, the light that comes out of her mouth isn't the same bright gold regeneration energy we see coming from the doctor on any of his regenerative occasions, it's the green/gold of the terraforming device's gases. i hope we do get an answer to this, though. maybe if georgia moffett ever wants to stop doing big finish audios, we can get an answer.
but the the chameleon arc have been used on the doctor before he lost all that memory. A chameleon arc rewrites your biology so it could be that the doctor’s DNA was rewritten from a Timeless Child into a time lord.
The Timeless Child is two ideas in one - one I like, one I don't The Doctor's Past life - I really like this. The Doctor having a past life they don't know about is particularly exciting, and it further adds to "Doctor Who?" We no longer know all their faces, where they're from, even their species. But their core identity, their development from Babby Hartnell to now, remains totally intact. The Doctor is the first Time Lord - unnecessary, but easily ignored.
@@PenneySounds Technically the child might be the very first Time Lord. I mean yes, it's quite speculative at this point, but it is presented very much that way in the Master's narration. The Master tells the Doctor within the Matrix, that the Shobogans altered themselves using the child's DNA as a template (the child is a Time Lord prototype of sorts). Then they are shown in a scene presenting themselves in those fancy robes as a "new species" renaming themselves - Time Lords. Sure, we don't really know, how much they altered themselves to match the child, but it's safe to assume, that they simply made enough alteration to become close to her physiology (perhaps the Shobogans had only one heart, while the child had two and they got the second heart for the regeneration to work on them?) - to become like her. Whatever species the child was/is, the altered Shobogans (Time Lords) basically became through her DNA template. So it is pretty safe to call the Doctor (the Timeless Child) being the very first/original Time Lord.
My problem is where Jo Martin's Doctor fits in the time line. As i have said before , the Police box version of The Doctors time capsule did not exist BEFORE Totters Yard ( episode one) ....As it arrived on ancient earth in episode two , William Hartnell's doctor was suprised at the Police box shape sticking as a police box and realised the chameleon circuit had, failed for the first time. Susan explains this to Ian and Barbara at the beginning of episode two...So the only way Jo could arrive in a policebox is , if it came FROM THE FUTURE. But please correct me if i am wrong....
I love the idea of Missy being post Spy Master and knowing about the doctor being timeless child, but only giving one little hint to Clara. It seems in character for her to just mess with them like that but in a way only she understands.
@@shwenty1734 Shwenty is right. In the canon now, they confirmed that the Spy Master is after Missy. Everything is confusing. I think it would have been better if they made this clear in the show. Now Missy knowing about some things doesn't make as much sense, not that I liked the twist anyway.
They haven't confirmed any such thing. But the fact that she knows about the Timeless Child, and that the other child was herself (something the show itself has yet to reveal), while O doesn't know about that, suggests Missy comes after O. I think O is closer to the Tremas Master, because he was the one who attained a copy of the Key of Rassilon and infiltrated the Matrix.
I really like that Jodie Whitaker's "flashback blast" into the Matrix at the end included "The Brain of Morbius." I missed that. That's really cool. It's such a weird and oddly dark moment in "Morbius," and it's fitting in that moment.
It does feel a lot like the Timeless Child comes from the Cartmel Masterplan, which was an aborted story arc that was being written during the Seventh Doctor's run. It's maybe what Chibnall hooked into when writing the more recent arc; the examples from the Seventh Doctor here are from that plan.
@@PenneySounds Cartmel specifically said he didn't like it because he hadn't envisaged specifically what the Doctor's past life was and only dropped those hints to create mystery, since the show had lost that since the War Games in his mind. The Other was largely Platt and Aaronovitch's brainchild. He never said his dislike came from the way the Doctor's past life was portrayed.
Been watching a lot of the 7th Doctor (and just recently the Silver Nemesis), and they were eventually going to reveal that the Doctor was the reincarnation of this ancient Time Lord figure who lived at the same time as Omega and Rassilion and was very important. Then it got cancelled. But I think this might have been a callback to that. The look on David Tenant's face, though, during his scenes--like he forgot some of his memories. Like he didn't know that happened. And the fact the 1st Doctor ran away from Gallifrey with his granddaughter--the Doctor was always running. Because they knew something was wrong.
The original intention was that the Doctor become the Other, a mysterious third figure in Rassilon and Omega's trinity, a Crassus to their Caesar and Pompey. Cartmel didn't want the details to come out and didn't think about it, it was Platt and Aaronovitch who did. Eventually the novel Lungbarrow in 1996 gave us details on the Other, and basically said he and the Doctor weren't even the same person, more like the Doctor's MAYBE a reincarnation, and that the Doctor was raised by a patriarchal figure to be some sort of next Rassilon, but the Doctor rejected that to become their own person; not a statesman but a bohemian renegade. The Other's contributions were also deliberately left vague to the reader, so for all we know he had nothing to do with regeneration, which other sources said was Rassilon's discovery till now, though that could be propaganda. The Timeless Child was just Chris Chibnall answering that, even though he had no involvement.
When watching classic Who as a kid, I always felt the Time Lords had this big secret they were keeping, and was always left disappointed that it would never get explored. Even though it gained a mixed reaction, I respect Chibnall for trying to give people like me that eventual payoff. As soon as I saw the faces from Brain of Morbius flash through The Doctor's mind, I knew he was going for a very specific kind of fanservice, and even if it wasn't for everyone, I enjoyed every second.
I totally agree. While it's difficult, and inevitably unpopular, for a show like Doctor Who, which has been going on for 60 years and aims to go on forever, to authoritatively answer any questions or close any overarching plotlines, the idea that the Time Lords are a highly corrupt society with some undermining secret has been hinted at for a very long time
@@wkkqewqaver7766 My favorite part of the Morbius movie was when Doctor Micheal Morbius said "I'll always remember when it was Morbin time." and then regenerated into a new Doctor incarnation.
I tried looking this up to understand what was going on in The Wild Blue Yonder. This is clearer than the wiki article I read, thank you 60 years of backstory is a lot to go through
I remember seeing The Brain of Morbius as a little Whovian and I remember very well how many excited conversations there were with school friends about it's implications. But a regeneration does have a way of muddying the waters of continuity and we all moved on with the fifth. But it's stayed with me all this time. So to me, as a child of old Who, TTC arc is a gateway to so many possibilities, and what with it being in RTD's hands again, well I've had my love of the Doctor reinvigorated. And this video has helped a great deal. Thanks for sharing.
The Timeless Child is an interesting plot development for the show to take, and I like aspects of it. The Time Lords have always been kinda fake, so establishing that the whole regeneration thing isn’t even theirs is a pretty cool idea… however: the episode realises this concept in a pretty mundane way, the Master just sorta explains all the new lore to the Doctor, who is then outraged that they lied, despite always thinking the Time Lords were bad people? I don’t see what this really adds to the show, other than now we can bait future series finales with reveals about all the new mystery boxes. I’m interested to see how the show plays this going forward, I don’t think it ruins the Doctor necessarily, but it plays into the new series thing they keep doing where the Doctor is like, the most important person ever, an idea I’m not a massive fan of. We’ll see what happens next I guess. I’m just glad there are people who enjoyed this episode out there. I’m sure never watching it again.
"The Doctor was the first Time Lord" isn't a new series thing. That was intended as a reveal for the *Seventh* Doctor, had the series not been cancelled/gone on hiatus.
I don't personally approve of conflating Chiball's Timeless Child concept with the Cartmel Master Plan, but I do concede they're largely compatible besides the Doctor clearly retaining some knowledge of being The Other but not the Child and the iffy choice to mark regeneration as the event/discovery sparking the creation of Time Lord society as opposed to being something engineered after time travel technology/the Anchoring of the Thread.
The Other was never established. Foreshadowing was done but the final concept wasn't revealed, so there's nothing wrong with tweaking what that final concept would be
I think the idea that regeneration a is a product of the time vortex is a contradiction with the timeless child reveal, which would mean it was retconned to be basically a lie by the timelords to cover their crimes.
That's how it was in the novels and the audios, but Time Lords were explicitly stated to be a race in the show, until "Listen" went with the novel version and described it as a rank. "The Timeless Children" again tries to reconcile this by saying it's BOTH. That Time Lords are a race of genetically altered Shobogans, as well as being the elite of Gallifreyan society. Their species is Time Lord.
I'd be genuinely surprised if the Master wasn't revealed as also being a timeless child, it would simply explain too well how he survived too much stuff
@HOTD108_ there's moments where he shouldn't have been able to walk Like when the 10th doctor confronted the time Lords before regenerating He disappeared with the time Lords and never to be seen again only for us to see him later with 13 and missy And I haven't watched enough of the classic Doctor who but I'm pretty sure that there are loads of times that he shouldn't have walked
I could see it also being as simple as when they were kids the doctor did something to the master to sorta elevate them as equals back when they were best of childhood friends before/at the start of the drums but also them just being the ying and yang of timelord gods
I'd like to point out that the name of the episode that revealed that The Doctor was the timeless child was actually called "The Timeless Children." No matter how many faces they've had, The Doctor is still a singular being, so the episode title using the plural form of the word, "children," suggests that The Doctor may not have been the only timeless child. The episode title may have been a clue that there's more to the story. Considering that The Doctor and The Master were the only "children of Gallifrey" (as the Time Lords referred to them in "The End of Time: Part 2") featured in "The Timeless Children," I'd say it's possible that The Master is also a timeless child. If The Doctor and The Master were both timeless children who came from somewhere other than Gallifrey, that could also help explain why they go by titles rather than their names unlike other Time Lords. Rassilon, Tecteun, Gat, Goth, Morbius, Omega, and Borusa all went by their names while renegades like The Doctor, The Master, The Rani, The War Chief, The Monk, and The Corsair all go/went by self-given titles. Perhaps the difference in the naming conventions could be because the latter group were all timeless children who more or less rejected their Gallifreyan names. The latter group all being timeless children could also explain why those characters all left Gallifrey. The planet may never have felt like home to them.
It seemed obvious to me that multiple versions of the story should have been made in advance, appropriate versions to be shown to whoever discovered them. Certainly The Master would have been kicked into dramatic action by the "discovery" that he was the one and only Timeless Child that made Time Lord civilization what it became. And as others have pointed out here, there could have been multiple Timeless Children...
Even if it has been hinted at throughout the years, I still feel like it's a stupid idea. Personally I feel like it solves only a few questions and opens up a million more, and not the fun, speculative kind. If they wanted to add a timeless child, I feel it could've been anyone else. The Master, Rassilon, even The Rani! Making it The Doctor feels disingenuous to the feel of the show, making them not just a space hobo, but "THE MOST IMPORTANT CREATURE IN ALL OF TIME!!!!" It could've worked well. Really well. But it's so clear that they had no plan going into the series other than setting up plot threads to figure out later on. (Chibnell literally said in an interview that he had no plans for where it would go!) And then there's that little chat in Revolution of the Daleks, Ryan telling The Doctor that "things have to change because they have to so we should just deal with it" A scene that feels so patronizing and frankly INSULTING to the fans who have stuck by this series for close to 60 years. God I feel sorry for RTD, having to follow up with an explanation for this. But hey, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just out of touch and this is actually a "new beginning" for the series. Fine. But in my eyes, this just seems like a rushed, overly-complicated fanfiction trying to answer the question that should never be answered.
It's the greatest contribution to the series lore in decades. It ties together so many dropped plot threads, and fills so many plot holes that previously existed. You're just looking for a reason to hate it. The Doctor has never been an unimportant "space hobo", and nobody ever claimed she was until "The Timeless Children" aired. Before that, he was "The Last Of The Time Lords" and "The Lonely God" and "The Oncoming Storm" and we were all fine with that. Suddenly we get elaboration on the dropped plot threads of the Cartmel Masterplan, and everybody's going "Making the Doctor special ruins the show!". Come on.
@@PenneySounds But when he was the oncoming storm or the last of the timelords or the lonely god it was to set something up, or it was made by his actions, y'know? It was his reputation, not the universe revolves around her. Also what dropped plot threads are they anyway, I can't bring to mind any. Surely it makes less sense because the 'shobogans?' are actually 'gallifrayns?' so what, do they just have two names
Shobogans aren't a new concept The Doctor has always been someone exceptional who has made a bigger impact on the universe than anyone else ever. Nothing has changed there. We just now know more about why.
@@PenneySounds exactly, we're introduced as then being gallifrayans, but they can't be, gallifrayans are, who is the dude refering to when he speaks the the 4th Doctor? And it doesn't explain why they made a bigger impact than anyone else, half the point is he denied his origins, ran away in a blue box to have adventures, key point being ran away
@@PenneySounds like I said, it's just my opinion. You can like it if you want, that's fine, I just can't stand it myself. Personally I think that the Time War was a greater implemented contribution that makes the Doctor more important in a way that feels earned. Again, just my opinion. 🤷♀️
Never realised that part of Hell Bent revealed he once was a little girl... wow. That's made series 12 look a bit better now. Then again it can be easily said that the Doctor was messing about and knew exactly what Clara was thinking because knowing Missy/the Master they would have used that joke before and the Doctor knows it
True, but it's not the only time 12 expressed some gendery stuff when reflecting on the past. When he told Bill about Missy, he said, "He was a man back then. Pretty sure I was, too," with a puzzled look on his face. There was definitely some heavy hinting during his tenure that the Doctor used to be female at some point. Of course, they could have just been implying that 1 was a trans man, but I feel like it was more of a regeneration thing
I mean the show is so long you could pull clips to justify anything. I don't think the timeless child was planned since before Chibnall. Before him the show was always purposefully vague and for a good reason. The speculation is always better than the answer.
@@PenneySounds I think its like the Weeping Angels. They were the most badass in Blink, but when we learned more about them in the Flesh and Stone & Time of Angels two parter, they kind of lost their allure, no?
@@PenneySounds But that "mystery is better than the answer" is literally Chibnall's approach and motivation for this entire story. That's why he's confirmed we won't see any closure on the Fugitive Doctor.
@@connormainwaring8866 No. Moffat made them even scarier. In their first appearance, the way to fight the Angels was to look at them. In their second appearance, we're told that if you look at them, you become one.
I honestly thought that The Timelords giving The Doctor a new set of regenerations was just a thing they decided to do. but they actually have done/offered it before with The Master. I feel way less upset about them breaking their own rules now.
That line is muddled though by the audio dramas, which reveal that the Bruce Master didn't actually die, leaving us to wonder when it was he died in order to be resurrected
More then that, they would have created a paradox if they didn't: The Twelfth Doctor (14th regeneration) showed up during Day of the Doctor and called in to Gallifrey. The Time Lords knew that the Doctor gained more regenerations in the future, so they had to give him some to prevent time from breaking.
@@jackganger-spivak5160 Except they wouldnt have known it was his 13th regeneration as there where only 13 doctors there, a timelord pulling a 10 was not something they foresaw even with all there power
It's amazing how the Timeless Child links into a bunch of old things. Seventh Doctor apparently was able to access some of the memories of the Timeless Child.
That or just straight up knew/worked out what they didn't remember. The Time Lords had a chance to deal with that during the Time War. Also Eight's amnesia to the point he thought he was half-human
@@carrot708 Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah maybe. I kind of think of it as things the Doctor would think and say and not know really why he was thinking or saying them.
i really like the idea of the timeless child, having the doctor lose their sense of identity right after capaldis solidly accepted it is a really cool concept. but i think the execution has been lackluster, although the arc isnt complete yet so its too early to make a full judgement call. i just hope Russel does something interesting with it instead of retconning it or ignoring it.
@@paleoleft Possibly still is, since we don't know what the Child is. All we know is she was found next to a giant pink portal just like the one through which the remnants of the Human race escaped the Cyber War.
@@Alistair-gi3bx But it was the Master who said it, and then the Doctor said it without knowing that the Master had said it. Then years later, Lady Me said it. That's corroboration
the stuff written for old who was supposed to be teasing that the doctor was actually a reincarnation of one of the founders of the time lords called "the other" who threw themself into the regeneration pools. but the storyline was never finished so most of the clips were ignored. Chibnall tried to continue that plot thread but for some reason didnt do the same storyline hence the strange lore jumble that is the timeless child
So does this retcon the previously established lore that Rassilon and Omega invented regeneration and time travel? And that Gallifery was a matriarchy? Because we have seen the women that used to rule Gallifrey (before they were banished) help The Doctor regenerate into the war doctor. Also I could be wrong but I thought that the 12 regeneration limit was artificially imposed by Rassilon because he was/is a bit egomaniacal and thought he was the only one worthy of true immortality. If the Doctor is the timeless child why did Rassilon and the Timelords have to grant him more regenerations if The Doctor is the original source of the power to regenerate?
I interpreted it as Rassilon taking credit for Tecteun's work. That's very in-character for Rassilon, who would apparently erase entire Time Lord families from history in order to further his own power. When Tecteun and Division disappeared to do their thing outside of the universe (as seen in Flux), Rassilon took over Gallifrey and essentially rewrote their history to imply it was all him. Omega complains about his achievements being usurped by others in The Three Doctors, so it's likely Rassilon did the same thing to him as well.
One of the biggest clues to The Timeless Children is that the Doctor's name is the universe's most important secret. Like, if he was just some random Time Lord, then why is his name so important when the other Time Lord's names aren't important? It wouldn't make sense, unless he isn't just some random Time Lord, but the one that started the Time Lords.
@@PenneySounds He most likely wont, as lots of things have come up proving that the next season will be like another soft reboot, swiping everything off the table to get a clean start. there might be some callbacks to it here and there though. So Chibnall better tie it up nice!
while i dont think the timeless child is as bad as the hybrid revalation being the reason the doctor ran away originally, i really think the actual timeless child episode doesnt do the reveal any favours by having like 3 episodes happening at once, like a cyberman x master where cybermen invade gallifrey story, the companions fighting cybermen alone, and then timeless child. I feel like this makes the reveal not have enough time to show the doctors feelings and real impacts and then the next episode and then season is just the doctor learning over and over again who they are. Sacha Dhawans master honestly makes it up for me tho, i absolutely adore his performance. Like hes so desperate for the doctors attention and rage at him because he knows that his biggests fears were true and that hes less important and isnt better than her. it makes the scene where he makes her kneel in spyfall so much more interesting like hes grasping at anything to feel better than the doctor.
I find his performance a bit... twitchy. Makes me think of Zack Snyder's interpretation of Lex Luthor. But I can accept this version of the character so long as he comes before Missy, not after.
Speculation (in response to a lot of the comment threads here): The child, who becomes the Doctor... is a future incarnation of the Master, thrust back to that exact point in time and space in that exact form. Nobody understands either of them like each other - because they ARE each other.
I like that you've put this all together, but most of it is referring to other accounts of the Doctor's origin not the Timeless Child. Lots of stuff I didn't even consider though.
Tom Baker was the fourth incarnation of Doctor Who. And he was the model from which all other Doctors after him were fashioned from. So have a jelly baby.
I am _not_ upset about there being a secret origin for regeneration. In fact, I think it's funny that the Time Lords essentially appropriated regeneration from another species. I'm just a bit iffy about the Doctor being involved in this origin. The Doctor doesn't care for Time Lord society, they don't deserve that burden.
I think the fact that the Doctor doesn't care for Time Lord society is just another reason why this reveal works so well. We've always known that the Doctor and the Time Lords stand apart, the Sixth Doctor's speech at the conclusion of his trial says it all really
I also think the Timelords stealing regeneration works. We know they stole Archron energy and were given time travel. I wouldn't be surprised if they stole TARDISes too. Hell, the TARDISes might be a separate species with a symbiotic relationship to Timelords. I'm willing to let future writers sell me on the Doc actually being a new species. One funny side effect of that, though, is that the Master really is the best Timelord to ever live. They really are the winner, lmao
Ive been with this show since Troughton/Pertwee, a HUGE fan and I thank you for the time taken in putting this explanation together. The revelation of the Timeless Child was a little clunky when realised in the show but this video, trawling the canon to find the continuity definitely sheds a great deal of light. It doesn't make complete sense but heck, this is scifi... and RTD is back with a gay, black performer as our next Doctor. Very excited to see where it goes. And thank you
Thank you for taking the clue of the Missy's speach to Clara !! I never see it when people put the timeless children on fire without regardless to the clue of the other seasons and incarnations of the Doctor. Big ty
excellent compilation! Really well done here, it shows the thought that went into the timeless child arc, which I feel truly adds depth to the show. [ I hope the doctor will look into that fob watch . . . ]
Personally I just love how much the Timeless Child arc adds so much more Mystery to The Doctor. But to be honest, ever since the revelation in the Doctor Who movie back in 1996 where 8th says he's half human, on his mother's side and people became outraged by it. I don't know what people want from this show if not just a bit of mystery behind The Doctor but I liked this twist and I really hope it is revisited at some point. Especially since the Fobwatch is still deep within The TARDIS containing The Doctor's Timeless Child genetics and memories.
I like this video. It's been yrs since I've watched the old school doctor who before the 9th. When he said his age I thought to myself I swore he was older. This video cleared it up for me. I don't have a problem with the timeless child. I just wish we got more
I find it hysterical that now we know the Doctor has (afaik) unlimited regenerations, at Trensalore the Time Lords probably weren't giving the Doctor more regenerations, they likely just shot him discretely and if anybody asked "hey, wasn't that the fire button?" they'd just shrug and say it mustn't have been because he regenerated, didn't he?
@@PenneySounds okaaay. I guess I'll try to break down my reasoning. 1. the Timeless Child isn't limited to 12 regenerations, that was a Time Lord edition. 2. The Doctor is the Timeless Child, therefore the above applied at the time of the Trensalore arc closing out Matt Smith's run. 3. While the Doctor didn't know he could regenerate, and thus held on for as long as he could, when he died he was always going to regenerate. 4. The Time Lords who we thought gave the Doctor new regenerations (Rassilon confirms we don't know how many in Hell Bent) must actually have just triggered the Doctor's regeneration process manually. 5. The regeneration process is triggered by dying. Hopefully that's a bit clearer.
Tecteun's regeneration limitation was applied to the Doctor as well. The Doctor was unable to regenerate on Trenzalore, because his ability to regenerate was, in the TARDIS interface's exact word, "disabled". He still had regeneration energy, but could not initiate the regenerative process because of the limitation. The Time Lords lifted the limitation, as they had previously done with the Master. Regeneration isn't triggered by dying. If a Time Lord dies before regenerating, they stay dead. The Time Lord has to initiate the process consciously. They can even refuse to, as the Master did.
@@PenneySounds I do enjoy how the Tardis put it, too. I initially assumed that regeneration being "disabled" was the work of the poison, but in the context of the Timeless Child arc, it really is a sit-up-straight moment. Like.. yeah, it was disabled. Like, on purpose. By a meddling party...
@@PenneySoundswait what? Regeneration is completely voluntary? I know Time Lords can initiate it when they want, and decide against it when they want. But that it doesn't happen once they die unless they want it to is new to me
I don't know if I would include Smith's regeneration as something that fits with the Timeless Child reveal, since the Doctor is clearly dying in that scene (regenerates the moment that he gets "given a new regeneration cycle"). It doesn't directly contradict the Timeless Child reveal or anything, since you can rationalize it and come up with excuses, but it's not a great example of continuity in my opinion.
It's a perfect example of continuity. Because without The Timeless Children, that scene would conflict with the previous scene where the Doctor still had regeneration energy to give River. Now we know that regeneration energy is unlimited, but Tecteun made it so the regeneration process can only be initiated a certain number of times. A limitation that can be lifted.
I love the idea that missy is post spy master purely cause it means the masters final (please just let them die) incarnation finally got to be the doctors friend again
It's really cool that you found all the ties that justify the episode, but I still think it could have been executed better. Preferably, I'd have the Doctor be Tec-te-un. Have it so that they experimented on themselves, so that keeps the Timeless child backstory, but doesn't discount a much more fascinating origin for the Doctor; the idea that they are ultimately responsible for the Gallifreyans' pretentiousness and war mongering over control of time. That's my opinion tho
...So you would be happier if the Doctor wasn't the character who was abused, tortured, and enslaved, but the one who was abuser, torturer, and enslaver?
@@PenneySounds Well, I just said that they would experiment ON THEMSELVES. By merging Tec-te-un and the Timeless Child into one character, that eliminates all three of those implications. Because the would-be Doctor wouldn't have abused anyone but...well, themselves. It's in their _complicit_ involvement with how Time Lord society evolved from that point on that would cause some contention. The rationalization behind that school of thought is that it would provide reason as to why the Doctor set out on their journey to help and heal the universe. They're grief-stricken in the part they played in hurting the universe and are making up for it by spending the rest of their lives protecting it. Because the way I look at it, a reveal around the Doctor being the arbiter of regeneration on its own...doesn't morally challenge the character in a way that's interesting, it would just feel like another part of backstory tacked on, as opposed to a backstory that gives the Doctor villainous roots that they worked hard to leave behind or even repress. I also get that the entire season was building up to that reveal and thus showed abuse, torture, and enslavement, which I say adds to why I think this reveal could have been thought through better; could it have been reworked so that the flashes of torture were glimpses into Gallifrey exposing their young to the Schism? Could that have been reworked to imply it as the result of Tec-te-un's research? I'm spitballing here and I'm in no way hating on the episode. What's canon is canon and I'm glad you're combing through the show to support it; I'm just discussing my opinion.
@@PenneySounds Wait are you seriously trying to say you'd rather the doctor was the one you'd rather had been tortured and bruised? Yes I'd obviously rather anyone other than the doctor What the hell are you smoking There were a lot of evil souls on Gallifrey even before the time war What in your right mind makes you think this kind of character, would deserve anything like that? I'd rather it not happen at all
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 The Doctor having experienced suffering is not new. It deepens the character. Intentionally causing suffering would undermine the character.
My guess is that the ppl who kidnapped amy spliced the timelord genetics into rivers embryo so she got regeneration, hence being harder to kill and more equipt to kill the doctor
Another good hint is from Human Nature & Family of Blood with all the voices coming from the doctor's watch including several female ones. At at times a bunch of overlapping ones. Likely from past regenerations since they mingled with his own. And would say to keep them hidden and safe.
I watched The Timeless child late and wasn't aware of the out pour over it. Out of Jodies stories I loved this because I've always been open to the mysteries of who is the Doctor. I felt they were edging to open this at Silver Nemesis. I think I recall the story of the faces being that of the production staff but more than likely the fact they could have been Morbius went over my head. I became a regular Watcher around the hand of fear so I would have seen this on VHS. I'm not against the fact other doctors came before Hartnell, just that he was already "parked" in London and we are so unaware of Susan's heritage, I long for it but then I would want it to be written well too.
Thanks for this video. It’s sad, I liked the idea of the Timeless Child as a big overarching concept that could bring something fresh to DW, I just feel its a shame that Chibnall didn’t really do the whole thing justice. I’m curious to see where RTD takes things now. Tell you what though, if he brings back Omega, I shall personally seek the man out and give him a great big hug!!!
It was the BBC who didn't do it justice. They gave us like half the screen time we should have gotten over the last 5 years. Not enough time to tell any story, let alone one this big. Fortunately it doesn't have to end. It's cemented in the lore now.
I like to think that the Doctor has no true origin story: As time is constantly being reset, details about the universe are adjusted all across space and time. The Doctor was a normal Gallifreyan child. And they were The Other. Then they were the Timeless Child. They were all of them. Sometimes they're thousands of years old, sometimes only recently broke 2 millennia It also explains how humans can never remember if aliens are real: the story keeps changing :)
Ok but can someone please explain why if the doctor has unlimited regenerations why do the time Lords give him more at the time of the doctor surely he would have been able to regenerate anyway?
This retroactively makes Time of the Doctor better, because even though it's justified in the episode, it always seemed random that they imbued him with more regenerations at the end. It seemed to come from nowhere. Now...we know why. Because he's the first Gallifreyan. The Timeless Child. He needs to keep going for Gallifrey to prosper. Without The Doctor, there is no Gallifrey. It wasn't an act of kindness, it was an act of selfishness.
I always thought it was because he managed to save them in a parallel pocket universe & End the time war, in the episode right before “the day of the doctor” let alone being a former president
@@PenneySounds The effects of the poison disabled his ability to regenerate. Then Melody cured him with her own regeneration energy. And how would the Time Lord Council know of this, regardless? Really, the fact that he suggested regeneration here is a slip-up of the writers. The Doctor should have believed that he was at the end of his regeneration cycle.
So there is a lot of backlash against this, but I just like it. The doctor was never going to die in the first place, also regeneration can still be interrupted, it's not like the doctor is truly immortal. And any and all danger was mostly about his companions in the first place. I imagine every 12 cycles they would remove his memories to ensure that the doctor would be none the wiser, ensuring both their own safety as well as that of the doctor because the doctor would surely be targeted if the truth was known. It also does not take away from the first doctor William Hartnell at all. Because the doctor was a promise, a vow. William Hartnell will always be the first doctor the true doctor the original you might say.
Originally during the 7th doctors era they were going to reveal he was a member of the trinity of founders of time Lords, I don't like him being the source of regeneration so if they had to make a twist where there was more to his past then we thought I'd prefer the original where he's important but not the only one.
Part of me believes that the reason The Timeless Child arc wasn't received well was cause Chibnall wrote it. I loved the concept of it and believe that it perfectly fits in with everything else, but feel as though it should have been implemented with much better stories. Here's an analogy for this. If I gave the same joke to 2 kids (The Popular Kid and The Weird Kid), people would laugh harder when The Popular kid said the joke, cause he knows how to deliver his jokes unlike the Weird kid whose delivery will be bland. In this analogy Chibnall is the Weird Kid, eventhough he's the one who actually made the joke in the first place. Just my worthless 2 cents on this matter.
The reason is people decided for political reasons to hate whatever Chibnall ended up coming up with the moment they saw that he casted a female Doctor
@@PenneySounds Yeah, that's there too. This sentiment was mostly prevalent in reviewers like MrNerdrotic and others similar to him. Rather than giving proper criticism, they would give personal attacks directed at Chibnall and Jodie. I am glad I stopped watching that clusterf#ck of an a$$h0le when i identified his motives
I've twice approved your reply to this comment but RU-vid refuses to show it to me here so I can reply to it. But yes, I know what you mean. As someone who opposes the rebooted version of Star Trek and Disney's Star Wars sequels, it's very frustrating to have the conversation on those issues dominated by RU-vid incels like Nerdrotic who oppose them for all the wrong reasons.
interesting how the doctors past has always been so ambiguous but when it becomes canon that there is still so much we don't know about the doctor, people complain imo the timeless children brought some ambiguity back to the character, moffat clarified and solved a lot for us - the doctor's name especially covered with the name/time of the doctor and also picked up in 12s final speech, it gives us some clarity as we can now apply these strange statements about the 3rd doctors age and the 7th doctor but still create a mystery out of it, not one with immediate intention to solve
I did not like The Timeless Child arc when it hit, but it does seem that it has been pretty strongly hinted at since at least Matt Smith's tenure, and it's clear that there was a long running implication that the Doctor lived more lives before the First Doctor took the TARDIS. Honestly I think my biggest issue with it at this point is that it still leaves a lot of unanswered questions (especially for a storyline that is kind of portrayed as containing "answers" to old plot holes), but obviously unanswered questions can be expanded upon in the future. I think the only detail that still bothers me is the "being from another universe" bit. Mostly because I just personally don't like the idea, but also because the story could have been executed without the Doctor being from another universe- there's no real change in stakes between the timeless child coming through a portal to another universe vs. just being some anomaly from our own. At least, as it stands, it removes a lot of the Doctor's identity of being a time lord- though I guess there's no reason they couldn't also just be a time lord equivalent from their parallel universe. Honestly though, I just kind of hope they don't retcon it. It does work, even if it isn't personally my favorite. RTD coming in to retcon it would be extremely cheap- and if they really believe the current audience hates it so much, they should just leave it alone for a while until some new writer wants to take it up again a few Doctors from now. Also, either way, thanks for this video- it does a lot to cement that the Timeless Child story wasn't just something that sprang up out of nowhere.
I just had insane and crazy idea what if somehow the doctor becomes the eye of harmony? I know it’s actually an exploding sun frozen in time as a forever fuel source but what if it was a lie what if the doctor is the eye of harmony his final form? It would also explain his tardis too? He is a vessel of infinite power!
so fun fact, the 7th doctor stuff was from a plan to make the doctor a reincarnation of a demi god from the time of rasalon and omega but the plan was never fully developed or added in due to some creatives of old who not liking it as well as the shows unfortunate cancellation - i believe he was going to be The Other or some entity name like that it is interesting the timeless child fits in well with this - which makes sense since chris chibnall is a old who fan and watched it back then, If i give him anything its that he knows about his dr who facts very well on a whovian level
I havnt watched jodies seasons yet but i heard a lot of negative things around the timeless child saying they changed doctor who lore but watching these it seems like it fits extremely well and was the plan from the start. The first and last of the timelords
Most of the video is just random unrelated clips of inconsistent Time Lord lore that Chibnall then proceeded to namedrop in a haphazard attempt to tie it all together, so that it might validate his crackpot fanfiction from the 1980's.
@@PenneySounds He really didn't alot of what's supposed to fit doesn't Smith doctor didn't know he was the timeless child so when he said better regenerate he thought he had 1 more cause they hadn't came up with the war doctor at that point. When Smith did die he only regenerated cause the time lords helped him.
@@themaker2149 Then how did he give regeneration energy to River? Note that the TARDIS hologram did not say he had no more regenerations. It said his ability to regenerate was disabled. All the Time Lords did was give him back his natural ability to regenerate without limit. It fits perfectly
@@PenneySounds Chibnall did tie it all together a bit more, especially with the chameleon arch, so the doctor is theoretically limited only to another cycle unless she opens the watch, but the main thing with Chibnall is that he keeps trying to change large amounts of canon, focusing on changing the past and previous lore rather than the future or his own ideas, instead just changing others, bad wolf wasn’t focusing on the past nor really was end of time or last of the time lords, and Matt only really did because the time war was this big thing full of mystery and darkness from the shows hiatus, which is still fine as that time period wasn’t written until 50th so no canon really changed, previous show runners never really tried retconning, and it kinda decreases the sense of threat and stakes of all previous episodes if they were just immortal, river was made via the time vortex, which makes sense, but the one good thing Chibnall did to wrap it I think was the chameleon arch to overwrite DNA otherwise all stakes of the doctors life from all previous episodes wouldn’t really be as important, as they could just regenerate infinitely.
Even way back in Classic Who and the expanded universe, it was heavily implied that Rassilon 1) stole the regeneration ability from somewhere else; and 2) it was granted to Gallifreyan priests and early Time Lords through gene splicing. Time Lords that graduate from the Academy are granted the third strand of TNA and the Rassilon imprimatur that allows them to regenerate. One legend had it that Rassilon stole the regeneration ability from the Great Vampires (and became a Great Vampire himself.) So yeah, this isn't new. It's also not a new idea that the Doctor is an ancient being from another universe that had a past with the early Time Lords and had their previous lives erased from both the record and their memory. Hell, the Seventh Doctor "New Adventure" novels all but outright state/show the Doctor is an eldritch abomination that is *heavily implied* to be Nyarlathotep and simply took on a Gallifreyan form way back when. Anyway, people thinking that RTD, a Virgin New Adventures writer, is going to retcon away the Timeless Child arc when it's a major homage to the myth arc in that novel series will forever be hilarious to me.
I'm honestly fine with the Doctor being a timeless child. I'm more ticked of by Gallifrey being destroyed again. Why waste the big moment of the 50th Anniversary Special?
@@PenneySounds Your problems with Hell Bent aren't mine (Though I'm currently at the end of Eleven's era on my current run so Hell Bent isnt that far. Apologies if it is literally destroyed and I got it wrong. I doubt it though)
Honestly I'm all for it because of the potential storylines it'll unlock, and if the rumors of a big overhaul on the behind the scenes parts are to be believed, I think the future of Doctor Who has the potential to be bright. Anywho thanks for these videos^^
Maybe resetting The Doctor pre William Hartnell and holding onto The Doctors memories was possibly a kindness Gallifrey did to The Doctor as a lot of time can slowly take a toll on a mind, maybe this explains why 14 bi-regenerated to help himself cope with the weight of a long life and who knows maybe The Doctor may have chosen to reset his life back then as he may have been going through a similar trauma.
7:36 at this time you can see 2 Daleks inside this strange armor… It was like a assault armor but it was like a mini ship with multiple Dalek inside…. Always thought it was just a different type of armor specialized in aerial combat x)
People can say what they want about the Timeless Child arc; I don't really care about whether it was good or not, just that it happened. The funny thing is that it has so many cool implications on Academy Era (the time when The Doctor was a child/student on Gallifrey) that go completely unnoticed. Did Braxiatel know? Did The Doctor's 'parents' know, or were they genuinely convinced they had accidentally loomed a child? Could this provide insight into their treatment of The Doctor? If The Timeless Child is The Other, would it be plausible that The Deca accidentally (ironically) worshipped The Doctor? Keep in mind, this would mean that The Master accidentally worshipped The Doctor as a Time Lord deity/ creation myth as a child. He'd be PISSED. (A slightly more angsty one) What are the similarities between Ushas and Tecteun? Did Vansell know? If so/if not, does the CIA (Celestial Intervention Agency) know? There's just. SO MUCH CRACK POTENTIAL. And it's COMPLETELY UNTAPPED.
@@PenneySounds Yeah, I'm aware of that; canon is flexible enough in the Doctor Who universe that people can have their headcanons and ideas without encroaching on the actual thing.
I have mixed feeling about The Timeless Child storyline but I have no hate towards people who like it. My favorite doctor is Matt Smith and in the back of my mind something about The Timeless Child stuff just doesn't work with the impact I felt originally with his regeneration but that really just is personal preference. I've seen some stuff from the newest season and it resparked my love for Doctor Who so really now it doesn't matter to me that I didn't initially like The Timeless Child I will still watch Doctor Who because it's a good show that I enjoy no matter my opinion on a few story elements. I will just enjoy the story for what it is.
My headcanon regarding 11's regeneration is that when the Time Lords wiped the Doctor's memory, they also imposed the 12-regeneration limit on him, and then 'unlocked' his other regenerations using the crack in time on Trenzalore. That way 11's regeneration doesn't lose its impact and it also fits with the new lore
well if nothing else it helps explain why the doctor's name has always been hidden. i know why in new who he was very carefully not saying it, but that doesnt explain why the pre-time war doctors (and other timelords) were so buttoned up about it
Who could describe the Doctor as "just another Time Lord"? Saviour of the universe countless times, President of Earth and Gallifrey, the ultimate scourge of some of the most dangerous entities in the universe. The Doctor has always been more than just another Time Lord.
The point was more we are what our actions make us. The Doctor was just another timelord - but the ways he uses that, the things he did, that's what makes him special.
@@kirotheavenger60 The Doctor has never been just another Time Lord. You've misunderstood the character if you think that. And you've misunderstood this story if you think making her something else by birth means it's not her choices and actions that define her.
