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The Most Ethical Batteries for Renewable Energy Systems 

Discover Permaculture with Geoff Lawton
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The main thing in renewable energy systems is the embodied energy: the energy over the lifetime of the product versus the energy of manufacturing it. Lithium batteries are used a lot because they are lightweight, but they don’t last. Lead-acid batteries, like car batteries, are also short-lived. An old technology, the nickel-iron battery, lasts a long time.
Lithium batteries are great when there might be a space or weight issue, but they are consumable products. Lead-acid batteries decays as they give energy. The nickel-iron battery powered the first electric cars, some of which had batteries that worked over 100 years later. These are not acid, but alkaline, made with a potassium hydroxide mix.
While they are only 1.2 volts, which means a lot of batteries and a lot weight, in a stationary situation, such as a house, the embodied energy is much, much better in nickel-iron batteries.
Key Takeaways:
Renewable energy is best judged via embodied energy: the amount of energy it provides over a lifetime versus the amount used to produce the system.
Lithium and lead-acid batteries both have short lifespans, decreasing their embodied energy, and as a result, they create more waste.
Nickel-iron batteries, a very old technology, lasts an incredibly long time and have much more embodied energy.
In a stationary situation, such as powering a house, nickel-iron batteries, though they require more space and weigh more, are a more ethical choice.

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4 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 92   
@greenfingersclubmalta
@greenfingersclubmalta 6 лет назад
WOW - this is amazing!!! Please can we have a video on how to fix them up, or of great people like this man who can help us fix and use them?
@sarahkuhr420
@sarahkuhr420 6 лет назад
Thank you for that information. I knew in my heart that there had t be something better than batteries we commonly use.
@evaczarnojanczyk1432
@evaczarnojanczyk1432 6 лет назад
Brilliant! I now know what I'm going to use in my system. Thanks Geoff!
@lulusperch1742
@lulusperch1742 6 лет назад
Awesome video! It sounds like all the lithium and lead acid batteries are made for planned obsolescence. I'm going to keep my eye out for nickel batteries now, thanks!
@LitoGeorge
@LitoGeorge 6 лет назад
Super cool. Hadn't heard of it to date, but will keep in mind for the future. Thank you for the education
@CorwynGC
@CorwynGC 6 лет назад
Hard to find. You can get them (used) sometimes from telephone companies, and Russia. Also, make sure you ventilate the space, as they produce more hydrogen than Pb-acid.
@jageo48
@jageo48 6 лет назад
The challenge one might make to this video's suposition is if nickel-iron batteries are so great, why then has no major manufacturer designed a house charging system with them in mind?
@rame-sprayer
@rame-sprayer 4 года назад
simple answers, money! why make people independant of the energie when you can run one of the most profitable bizness in the world making people dependant of your shit nuclear or fake green electricity...
@jrperrotta
@jrperrotta Год назад
I'll give you another analogy easily understood in today's thinking..."a patient cured is a customer lost" Can't get anymore clearer than this!
@jageo48
@jageo48 Год назад
@@jrperrotta Excellent. Exactly! Americans have grown up with the idea of their economic dominance to life, indeed all experience. This is somewhat like Europeans with their "Divine Right of Kings." Here's Yanis Varoufakis on how fundamental change _could_ be effected: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uSD1RGHrGik.html
@cygnus_zealandia
@cygnus_zealandia 6 лет назад
Question and comment : The electrolyte, potassium hydroxide ( KOH ) is a strong alkali, as strong as sodium hydroxide ( NaOH also known as caustic soda ). Unless the hydroxide ions ( OH^- ) of the electrolyte have been adequately neutralised by a suitable organic type acid, or other chemical process ( through ageing ? ) that has the same effect, it is not be safe to put the old electrolyte in the garden without it being harmful. The potassium ions ( K^+ ) are good for the garden as stated in the video, in the correct doses. You can test the electrolyte pH to ascertain how alkaline it is for older ( unusable ? ) batteries, and hopefully they will be safe to tip when the pH is around 7. They may be close enough to 7 when they have expired, so I recommend testing for that just to be sure, when there may be some doubt. Maybe the authors of the video may just like to clarify that issue for me and also their viewers ?
@diazalex5314
@diazalex5314 Месяц назад
The alkalinity of the solution would weaken over time, which is why you need to replace it. You can play around the dilution if you want for your own garden.
@wquon2007
@wquon2007 6 лет назад
I wonder how the new graphine batteries will hold up.
@piaspermacultureedu9460
@piaspermacultureedu9460 6 лет назад
Wonderful!
@bettymontgomery8689
@bettymontgomery8689 6 лет назад
Yess!!! This is a question that's been bothering me!
@qwertyui90qwertyui90
@qwertyui90qwertyui90 4 года назад
I met Mike a couple of days ago, really nice guy :) go to his store if you need some batteries and solar things in australia
@ccarrier8821
@ccarrier8821 6 лет назад
Couple of important points that were missed out. From the previous research I did for my off-grid system, is that these battaries have a relatively high self discharge rate meaning that they will lose the energy stored in them even if you haven't used the energy. Also the electrolyte is quite caustic (KOH) much like caustic soda (NaOH) so would need to be handled with care and properly neutralised with an acid before being discharge onto your plants. Current availability and prices are not reasonable and finally they are quite bulky and heavy.
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
People caught up in this "embodied energy" always overlook one thing: at whatever stage (mining, production, transport) significant energy was "embodied", someone had to pay for that energy, so that financial cost was already "embodied" in the final retail cost. There's no need to analyze the living daylights out of the entire production chain -- just consider price for that.
@JesusFreakJene
@JesusFreakJene 6 лет назад
Thank you 👍
@Jahmastasunherbalist
@Jahmastasunherbalist 6 лет назад
I hear good things about sodium and graphene base batteries. Maybe in the near future.
@RechargeableLithium
@RechargeableLithium 6 лет назад
The big down-side to NiFe cells is that they absorb CO2 from the atmosphere and it destroys the electrolyte. Here in the US, the chemicals needed to replace the electrolyte cost as much as replacing the cells with new. The basic cell has the lowest embodied energy, but replacing the electrolyte every couple of years is an embodied energy and wallet killer.
@christianvanderstap6257
@christianvanderstap6257 5 лет назад
Heh I did not know that tidbit of the chemistry for the NiFe cells. This would make them unusable for long term (90days) storage. Lithium will even discharge 25% in that timeframe.
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
That's not true. Here in the US, Potassium Hydroxide is sold as drain cleaner, in powdered form, and it's cheap.
@punkseth1
@punkseth1 2 года назад
what's with the green flash at the beginning ?
@manasmarthi
@manasmarthi 6 лет назад
The link in Friday five mail for choosing "what's new priority emails" is redirecting to here.. not an email subscription page..
@yxcvmk
@yxcvmk 6 лет назад
For a simple kickstart in understanding the NiFe Batteries, I would appreciate a rough comparison in size and weight to a 12V lead acid battery with 100Ah.
@eakle
@eakle 6 лет назад
Yes, that would be helpful; also approx. cost per watt hour of storage. How far down can you safely discharge them would also be nice to know (lead acid = don't discharge to below 50% of capacity; lithium = don't discharge to below 25% of capacity)
@DiscoverPermaculture
@DiscoverPermaculture 6 лет назад
ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery, you can totally 100% discharge with no effect.
@johnmcfadden9336
@johnmcfadden9336 5 лет назад
I just checked the price of these batteries which is a bit pricey although over time that evens out , but there is a chemist on RU-vid that has developed carbon based batteries that are relatively easy to make . He is currently constructing a small scale production unit to start making them. His name is Robert Murray Smith well worth a gander
@RealisticAlternatives
@RealisticAlternatives 3 года назад
RMS is an amazing bloke!
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
People often complain about them being expensive, but when you compute cost PER YEAR, they win every time. If you build a home power system with lead acid or lithium, and they expire in 5 or 10 years, what are you going to do? Say, "we've have a good run." and stop using electricity? Of course not. You're going to spend even more money to replace them, and with what? The cheapest battery you can find? Nickel Iron is the way to go.
@brandonprice864
@brandonprice864 6 лет назад
Any one know where - who commercalizes them..?
@JamesOGant
@JamesOGant 5 лет назад
Graphene super capacitors?
@shaunrichter3735
@shaunrichter3735 6 лет назад
Edison Nickel Iron Battery patents: US678722 & US692507 :)
@o00oZu1o00o
@o00oZu1o00o 3 года назад
What about the saltwater batteries?
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
Google is your friend.
@jimthvac100
@jimthvac100 4 года назад
They are only 65% efficient when you charge them. So 1/3 of your precious solar is wasted as heat in the batteries when you charge them. LiFePO4 batteries can last 10 years and 3k to 4K charges and still have 80% left but can take in 99% of the charge without waste. You have to completely replace the electrolyte on Nickel Iron cells every 5 years. They have a high internal resistance so difficult to pull large loads and take exceeding long to charge. If you want a 48 volt battery bank you have to have 40 of these cells to do it. The voltage has a steep discharge curve so if you hook these to an inverter there is going to be a large amount of power at the top or bottom of the discharge curve of these batteries that is going to be usable. Voltage to low for inverter to use yet still power there. Also Nickel Iron batteries loose 1% of there charge every day! There is a reason these batteries are not popular.
@qwertyui90qwertyui90
@qwertyui90qwertyui90 4 года назад
They aren't popular because the exide battery company who bought the edison battery company decided to stop producing them because they lasted too long and they didn't get repeat customers every few years like with their lead acid batteries
@Frogmobile52
@Frogmobile52 Год назад
Neutralise the waste KOH with nitric or phosphoric acid to ph7 then you have a fert for your garden. (potassium nitrate or phosphate)
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
Combining acid and bases produces salt, does it not?
@Frogmobile52
@Frogmobile52 5 месяцев назад
@@PeterLawton Pot nitrate for nitric acid and pot phosphate from phosphoric acid
@hootsmin
@hootsmin 6 лет назад
Hemp carbon based batteries with a seaweed electrolyte are outperforming LiPo in every way, they can go in the composter when you are done and they wont explode in a fiery inferno if you damage them. I wonder how well the NiFe battery would perform if you were to give it a carbon coating?
6 лет назад
hootsmin can you mention few valuable sources about this technology... would love to dig a bit this interesting solution.
@hootsmin
@hootsmin 6 лет назад
There are many videos on youtube of carbon batteries and supercapacitors, Robert Murray Smith's channel has a lot of good videos: ru-vid.com
@geofflawton3198
@geofflawton3198 6 лет назад
We have lived off grid for 25 years and nickel iron is what we now use.
@flattail
@flattail 6 лет назад
Have you heard of using a concrete flywheel to store solar energy? www.energiestro.net/technology/
@JorntWagenaar
@JorntWagenaar 6 лет назад
Geoff mate, what about the isothermic compressed air that Bill, bless him, was talking about? Is that a viable option for power? In theory it could easily generate electricity at the moment it's needed.. Could maybe take down the demand for batteries.. Thanks for everything;)
@yxcvmk
@yxcvmk 6 лет назад
I guess (from my limited understanding) it could, provided one has flowing water at least 50m (approx 500ft) above. This will give 5 Bar (approx 70 psi) of pressure. The amount of compressed air depends on the amount of water utilized to "transport" the air down. If I remember right, it's called a "Trompe pump".
@DiscoverPermaculture
@DiscoverPermaculture 6 лет назад
Hi Jornt, if you have a permanent water supply that can fall 35m vertical fall and if we swale all the catchments we can have free clean energy forever.
@JorntWagenaar
@JorntWagenaar 6 лет назад
Damn, i got a reply from the man himself! Thanks, you too yxc;) Maybe it's not very viable here in the Netherland (flat as a pooltable).. Will you ever make a video on the possibilities? Spread the knowledge? Thanks again, for everything!
@rehoboth_farm
@rehoboth_farm 5 лет назад
@@DiscoverPermaculture People are always so focused on power for lights and electronics but the lion's share of power is normally in heating and cooling. Sure better design can mitigate that issue. An interesting technology for storing thermal energy involves using a ground source heat pump to take heat out of the atmosphere, home, or greenhouse and pump it into the ground during summer and then retrieve it through the winter. Ground source heat pumps can work anywhere that you can drill a hole or dig trenches. Sometimes they submerge a loop in a pond. Perhaps a Jean Pain system hybridized with a heat pump could be very useful. With a proper control system you could also have precise control of the internal temperature of the compost as well.
@DiscoverPermaculture
@DiscoverPermaculture 5 лет назад
Rehoboth Farm yes we do all of that plus thermal mass stoves etc
@ARMBouhali
@ARMBouhali 5 лет назад
I wonder how much they do cost and where to buy them ...
@DiscoverPermaculture
@DiscoverPermaculture 5 лет назад
24hoursolar.com.au
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
I bought mine from China, CIYI batteries. These are made for their military and are solid and well-made. Some things from China are junk. Other things from China are very worthwhile. I had to import them, with good assistance from CIYI support. It feels like a long process with a lot of steps. In the end, I paid $8K for 24 KWH (40 cells) and $1K for all the transport costs. The net cost was about half of what IronEdison charges.
@rame-sprayer
@rame-sprayer 4 года назад
what about hemp baterry?
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
Google is your friend.
@rame-sprayer
@rame-sprayer 4 года назад
Where to find this medieval artefact?
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
I bought mine from China, CIYI batteries. These are made for their military and are solid and well-made. Some things from China are junk. Other things from China are very worthwhile. I had to import them, with good assistance from CIYI support. It feels like a long process with a lot of steps. In the end, I paid $8K for 24 KWH (40 cells) and $1K for all the transport costs. The net cost was about half of what IronEdison charges.
@an2qzavok
@an2qzavok 2 года назад
what this has to do with ethics though
@asc556
@asc556 5 лет назад
Hi. I have a question: Do the plates of the cells degrade? because i read that the cells loss 1% of capacity per year because of the carbon on the electrolite. So after 10 years and 10% of capacity loss the electrolite has to be changed and the battery recover that loss. So my doubt is if after 1 or more changes of electrolite the plates remain the same. Thanks.
@tomsea7500
@tomsea7500 8 месяцев назад
Edison Labs thought of that! Look at patent 821.625. Because the case was nickel plated steel, there is a process where you 'charge' the batteries by connecting the anode and cathode together as one terminal and connecting to the case as the other terminal. This drives the impurities into the electrolyte solution where it is poured off when the electrolyte is changed. I have not tried it yet but it is supposed to bring the batteries quite a bit back to original capacity.
@asc556
@asc556 8 месяцев назад
@@tomsea7500Four years later and I finally get my answer. Thanks for the reply. Seems like a very good solution.
@Славянка-д4й
@Славянка-д4й 6 лет назад
Сделайте русские субтитры, пожалуйста! Очень нравится ваш канал, но ничего не понимаю, только смотрю
@VeganChiefWarrior
@VeganChiefWarrior 6 лет назад
fahk mhater dhuts afhukn carayzeheysnsn
@deanosslewis
@deanosslewis 6 лет назад
10 thumbs up for salt water batteries. Big heavy dumb but clean and great capacity.
@ceebeedf
@ceebeedf 6 лет назад
Came here to say that. Perfect for stanionary usage. Like you said, big heavy dumb but absolutely clean. In buildings it usually doesn't matter if your battery stack has the size of a chest freezer or two. You put it in the basement or a shed and forget about its proportions. Who the hell needs a sleek tesla powerwall? Like it had to be "aerodynamic" :)) There was a company that prooduced salt water batteries: aquionenergy.com, unfortunately they went bankrupt, but they plan to come back. I really hope they do.
@charlieabel1533
@charlieabel1533 Год назад
I won't part with my nickel iron batteries!
@nunosdonato
@nunosdonato 6 лет назад
I dont get it. Lithium batteries have a much longer life-cycle than lead-acid batteries, and can be discharged lower than 50%.
@shakespeare_hall4788
@shakespeare_hall4788 6 лет назад
Nuno Donato Yes you are right but you were not listening there is a third older design called Nickel Iron that uses a saline liquid instead of acid ! these have been around since the beggining of the 20th century and have lasted this long !.....there is a huge difference between being able to understand English and Comprehend English a BIG difference !
@sherrylkeith9695
@sherrylkeith9695 5 лет назад
I love use Avasva Solutions for that issue.
@KOl-xj4jt
@KOl-xj4jt 5 лет назад
Atomic battery still >
@permaculturenature4992
@permaculturenature4992 6 лет назад
first one
@VeganChiefWarrior
@VeganChiefWarrior 6 лет назад
nickels and irons god cant i just use a stick and pee on it and then coat it in pot ash and then light it on fire and BOOOM phone charged, probly have to tape the charger to the stick actually so hmmmm interesting
@sampotter7715
@sampotter7715 6 лет назад
BetterYouBetterWorld im not very battery savy but that sounds like my kinda tec 👍✌
@VeganChiefWarrior
@VeganChiefWarrior 6 лет назад
haha ;p
@maxjosephwheeler
@maxjosephwheeler 6 лет назад
*You left out too many details for the video to be useful.*
@johnmcfadden9336
@johnmcfadden9336 6 лет назад
Any body interested in new carbon based batteries that an be made by oneself should checkout Robert Murray smith channel on RU-vid
@theheathkitshop2424
@theheathkitshop2424 4 года назад
Interesting little video. However, they did skip a few details. One is expense. Nickel is not a common metal. It's damn awful expensive. Iron nickel batteries are not very efficient, it takes a lot more power going into charge them. They don't like heavy discharges, so you need to over rate the battery capacity if you use inverters. On charging, they produce huge amounts of hydrogen. They break down the electrolytic and maintenance is a bit of hassle to make sure they are fully topped up with water. Did I mention they are expensive... To replace my lead acid 48V system, I'd need to drop about $43,000. Sure, they'll last 40+ years, but thats a lot of money to come up with at one time. The electrolytic, although not acid, is a base. Just as corrosive as acid can be. Every seven or so years, you have to dump the old juice out and replenish it. Not a lot o fun and it's not cheap. The voltage of the cells is 1.2V so you need a ton of these to operate high voltage (48V) inverters. Their high maintenance, low efficiency, and huge costs basically rule this battery chemistry out for most of us.
@PeterLawton
@PeterLawton 5 месяцев назад
There are so many things wrong in your posted comment. NiFi take discharges all the way down to depletion without damage. Lead acid batteries self discharge some, and NiFe discharge some more, but not "a lot more" as you stated. Hydrogen production is a matter of overcharging, lead acid or NiFe. So if you are producing "huge amounts of hydrogen", then it's on you for overcharging.
@cornpop7805
@cornpop7805 5 лет назад
Lead acid is recycled nearly 100% of the time.
@DiscoverPermaculture
@DiscoverPermaculture 5 лет назад
The energy of production and recycling over the life time of the product gives you the energy audit.
@cornpop7805
@cornpop7805 5 лет назад
@@DiscoverPermaculture Absolutely true, but don't think just because you put a lithium battery in the recycling bin at Home Depot, that it's getting recycled. However, if you drop your lead-acid battery off at the auto parts place, it WILL be recycled. If it's dry and still in the case it's $0.25/#, for just lead, it's $0.57/#. I'll bet 99% of all the lead batteries produced, were recycled. People steal them out of cars, just to recycle them. Beer money YO. Nickel Iron lasts long enough, but when its life is over, it takes too much processing to remove the nickel, so it's going in the landfill and it's 10x to 14x larger than the lithium. Yes, there are 70yr old batteries around, but that's only a small fraction of the batteries that went into service. Just a guess, but I'll bet 99.999% of all the nickel iron batteries ever produced, are in landfills. They might last 35yrs on average, but you need to replace the electrolyte in 10yrs. Some charge controllers and inverters allow you to set the charge and discharge parameters, such that lead-acid can last 8 to 10yrs. From there, you can desulfate them, change out the electrolyte and run some more. It is possible to get 20yrs out of lead-acid and when it's over, it WILL be recycled. Lead takes very little energy to recycle, as compared to most metals. Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't run lead again, but that has nothing to do with environmental ethics. But in that regard, I still don't think lead-acid is necessarily worse than the others and in actuality it's probably better.
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