The Most Profound Moment in Gaming: MGS2 AI Conversation Analysis Part 1 of 2 

Honored to speak Kojima’s frighteningly, prophetic words.

The Patriots were right. 12 years after the game, and it's truer than ever.

This game anticipated the future. It's years before facebook, and everything JD/GW says is coming to reality in recent years. Fake news, useless informations, and all else. Playing through this game again in 2017 was a terrifyng experience. Not a simple game, a philosophy masterpiece.

It's funny how nobody gives Tomokazu Fukushima any credit and everyone just keeps praising Kojima

Too bad I absolutely didnt understand what they were talking about when I was 13...

I know it's not as important as the speech itself, but I adore the background ambiance played during this codec. It's wonderfully chilling. If it was the speech alone it'd be scary enough, but having a legitimately discomforting "theme" in the background just makes the proximity of the horrific issues seem even closer, even more omnipresent.

The OG video from which Max Derrat got inspiration for his own... Came here, doing my due diligence and had to respect (watch) your take. Thank you.

Since I played this game I noticed something was up with the volume visualizer... It looked always like a gun pointing at Raiden....

Never forget that an A.I. (RU-vid's algorithms) suggested that you watch this video.

I don't get how people are subscribing the themes of this to certain political parties or groups or anything like that - I think what made MGS2 so effective thematically and what makes segments like this so chilling are that they seem less tied to any certain political climate and more to how technology has evolved and how our subjective interpretations of the world beyond us are becoming more and more tailored by outside forces. in a way we're having our food digested for us for convinience, missing out out on the details and the actual nutrition of the content. I don't see this as a left, right, etc. thing - I don't even think the game even really proposes a right answer here. The Patriots by default are antagonists here because of their extreme implementations of their ideology. Isn't that what makes everyone in the Metal Gear series an antagonist? The chilling effect of this is partially due to some of the realities of what the AI is approaching in this codec call, specifically how much more their reality is relatable in 2017 than it was in 2001. Solidus was the antithesis of what the Patriots stand for, but a villain in his own right. I think it's almost silly to put a left-right orientation onto this because it only reaffirms what the Patriots are basically going on about - digesting information and coding it into your own worldview, cutting a square cloth and sewing it neatly into a patchwork set of ideals that may be more or less tailored than the average person, but nevertheless constructed due to outside influence nonetheless. I love this codec call because it feels universally challenging and it leaves you with questions. It's disquieting in how applicable it remains and because it brings to the forefront the constant, droning cognitive dissonance we maintain consuming content in the digital age, more inclined to toss out what may be good information and consume crap because it's more comfortable or because it reaffirms our beliefs. We are all guilty and all we have as reassurance is the partially-constructed voice in our head that tells us we are right, we are logical, we are reasonable, and we do a good job sorting things ourselves.

I still need scissors. 61.

As a person whose (Sadly) never played a Metal Gear game before... I... need to sit down

kojima is 50 years ahead of mankind

i think this game is the reason i never got into reddit, twitter, and instagram; why i felt so much sorrow on facebook i happily deleted it, why i’ve been alienated from society. i’m free from the prison of group thought but have been cast into a pit of loneliness and in a sense became my own echo chamber. In the search for self i sadly find the deep i dig, the further i lose my individuality and come closer to the real truth, “i am the biproduct of the ideas of better men. my philosophy does not come from within but through the work of others. I am my own worst enemy. i should hate this game. it’s brought endless anxiety and loss of identity, but somehow, i feel i’ve lifted a chain so loosely placed around my neck. i know i have the potential to have my own thoughts. i know that i have power, and by staying away from herd consciousness, i may be able to bring something of value to society

MEMES, JACK

An algorithm automatically flags what is deemed inappropriate on RU-vid. This happens without human interaction, it "watches" content and informs uploaders they have violated guidelines. Why? Because there is simply too much content to be manually reviewed, after being flagged it can be very hard to get to talk to a real human from RU-vid to solve your issue. The program has become too large for it's owners to manage. Same with tweets, Facebook posts, Instagram, etc.

This game is so post-modern. It's so good.

It's amazing this game came out in 2001.

And the truly scary thing is, we still don't understand the full extent of this concept. You couldn't in 2001, you couldn't in 2010, you couldn't in 2019, and you can't in 2021. Let's hope that we never need to know.

As of this writing, it's now the year 2020. This analysis which by this time is almost 2 decades old, was frighteningly accurate.

I remember watching this when i was 14 yrs old and was I fucking scared lol

It took me many years after playing this 10 years ago as a 12 year old to fully grasp and comprehend this discussion in it's entirety. Very deep and VERY thought provoking.

Little note: most of the CODEC dialogue (and a considerable part of the main narrative arc itself) was written by Tomokazu Fukushima, not Kojima. After Fukushima left (by the end of MGS3) you can arguably spot how the writing took another direction and themes like anti-americanism, politics and introspectiveness were all but abandoned for the later games.

It's so sick because it is so fucking true.

"90% of everything is crap" -Sturgeon's law

Leaving a comment in appreciation of Max Derrat's brilliant riff on your original video essay. I feel like so many people are caught up in the pseudoscience of Kojima's associated world-building to appreciate the deeply human themes he explores in his stories. You did Kojima and his writing team - translators included - an incredible justice with this video alone. I appreciate you creating it. 💛

I first hated Raiden and MGS2 when I was 13. Now 27 in September 2020 this game keeps me awake at night. Shoutout to Paul Eiding as well. Legendary voice actor performance. Coming back to this game his cadence of speech is “off” the entire time. What a game. What an experience.

Unbelievably relevant

God help us all its becoming a reality

The AI is faced with the same dilemma all ruling classes is faced by. Namely, are we in power because we know best and therefore should decide for others, or are we just in a lucky spot and therefore our truth isnt more valid than any others? And yes, AI computers are in power...

Still very relevant now with how things are

Awesome video. I never really realized how interesting this conversation is or what it really meant (probably just from being too young when I initially played the game) but I also loved your analysis. Great job!

Your insight of this scene is truly remarkable. This was a great analysis of one of the greatest moments in gaming.

God, I need to replay this. I was so young then and it all went over my head.

That was the most original, thought provoking and well thought out response I've ever seen. I'm convinced sir, you are correct, your arguments are flawless and provide substantial reasons for me to doubt myself.

its 2019 and I watch this every now and then to keep myself "woke" this game scared the shit out of me when I first played it when I was a child. -I do agree with the A.I. though, WE want this shit that is being fed to us and we arent doing much to change it.

Hideo Kojima is by far my favorite all-time story creator for games! So far ahead of the competition. NOTHING COMES CLOSE

Who is here in 2020. Never has been so clear, that for any argument you have it's counter argument, or "debunked" video. No topic is safe, even the clearest ones you may think about!

This is amazing, I never really thought about this conversation too much, but thanks to you I really understand this now.

LogosSteve, I sincerely adored your interpretation. Make more of these videos of any of the MGS titles, etc.

How does this get more relevant with time it’s absolutely interesting

4:20 "from tablets to book.....then back to tablets"

MGS2 is still by far my favorite of the series & this video eloquently explains why. Thank you :)

Great video and analysis. I had to replay the last couple of hours of the game a few times to get a proper understanding of the Patriot's philosophy.

21 years and its kind of here already

I may have found this video almost a decade after it's creation, but damn if it isn't as relevant as ever.

How eerily ominous seeing it occur today.... it doesn't end with a bang for sure... everyone is whimpering. No one is right... and no one is invalidated.

This video was posted 10 years ago. It ages like fine wine.

Kojima was ahead of his time, and so were you.

Correctly predicting Tumblr since 2001

I'm really glad i found this. When I played this game years ago I didn't understand a thing about this whole conversation. thanks for this man. This is awesome.

Excellent analysis of Kojimas work. You broke everything down to near perfection. Kudos sir. I think I gravitate to this game series so much due to MGS2 story, in particular, this very conersation. While MGS2 wasnt my favorite to play, its one of the more inspirational and thought provoking for me and I thank you for the vid

The more and more the years carry on.. the truer this all sounds.. :(

This video aged better than wine.

glad to see this still being referenced in 2022/2023

EXTREMELY well done! I'm going to have to revisit MGS2 after watching this.

This happened, except the AI is dumb AF and is just feeding you what you're most likely to click

beLIEve.

The fact this game was released around 3 years after Google was founded is... a lot to process O_o

Primordial soup sounds soothing right now because I'm sick at the moment

What would’ve happened to America if Solidus won?

About the endangered species,if these animals die then that would damage the ecosystem and hence loss of habitat. Humans keep spawning and demand grows,but the extinction of these animals would have a permanent effect hence it needs to be stopped.

Thanks. I mean I might talk about the MGS series in general and touch on that part sometime but it'd mostly be me talking about how much it reflected Kojima's thoughts at the time. Matthewmatosis really nails it.

Never would have found this without Max Derrant. Cheers.

This is why MGS 2 will be my favourite video game of all time. There is so much deepness and philosphical ideas behind this game that people talk even decades after the release about it. It's far better than MGS 3, 4 and 5. Only MGS 1 can scratch on the level of this game because of the very similiar tone. I have the impression that this game was the only oppertunity where Kojima could really expressed himself and his intelligence. Let's be honest this game was much smarter and deeper than the from everyone beloved MGS 3. This game was and still is far away it's time.

Kojima is a genius he did predict the future in the current digital age all of the worst of humanity is shining through.no one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. Parents can't be bothered for instilling virtue or common sense into their kids anymore when they get themselves into trouble or do bad things.Political correctness reigns supreme.any time I try to convince people they should be responsible for what they do I'm surrounded by so much ignorance,censorship and victimisation its suffocating.

I just wanted to come back and say that I appreciate the fact that you extended your analysis of this conversation beyond the realms of the reality of MGS and into the reality of modern social culture, because there seems to be no greater prophecy of the future than that of what Kojima expresses in his gameplay, and I thank you for your analysis, as it can help the common gamer further understand why MGS2 is one of the greatest games of all time, beyond the guns and bosses.

Excellent analysis. I remember playing this as a child and not understanding some of this conversation. It's interesting to come back to this as an adult. I might have to find out my copy of this game again soon...

It's scary how a video game could predict the future with such accuracy.

Much better analysis than that Max guy.

Very aptly named video sir. Really like your work. :)

Excellent analysis and video! The difficulty in trying to convey these types of complex discussions on society in video games (and why many consider the story of MGS2 to be a failure) is that, as a game designer, you have to ensure that your message is A) clearly explained and B) revealed gradually and/or subtly to the player via the gameplay experience. Gaming as a medium is all about the transmission of information with minimal dialogue. I feel that MGS2 nailed the former, but not the latter.

I remember in MGS 4, Rose said Jack kept getting flashbacks of himself when he was in the Small Boy Unit. Personally, if I were Raiden/Jack, I know I would be getting more flashbacks of this than that, as bad as I make that sound.

goddamn dude!

In a 20-year retrospective, Christian Smith of Collider said that Metal Gear Solid 2 remains a "controversial masterpiece" that played a pivotal role in "redefining the art of making video games after the turn of the millennium". Source: The Legacy Section of the Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty Wikipedia Article.

4:06 "Genes don't contain any record of human history." Assassin's creed series: AM I A JOKE TO YOU???

2024 and this actually happening.

The world seems to be full of these people (or AIs) who think that they make some consequentialist proposition ("X would be good for Y, therefore doing X is good and I am going to bring about Y"), but do not propose any methodology of ethics that would be objective (obviously a nontrivial philosophical challenge, right?) first are evil. Which inevitably means "I am going to violate you becaus I know better what you want than yourself". There are several problems with this. First, what you choose for Y is based on subjective preferences, therefore you are talking aesthetics, not ethics. If you are then going to propose/employ fraudulent, murderous or other similar means, you are acting like your subjective preferences should be expressed in objectively observable ways, but those of other people should not (you are overriding them), which is hypocritical and thus cannot be ethical because having different standards for different people is not logically consistent application of any principle. Second, we cannot perfectly predict the future (which would mean we have no choice and ethics would need a different approach) and retro-causality is axiomatically impossible (from the definition, causes PRECEDE their effects; we would identify them the other way around if they in fact did not), therefore any argument "I do X in order to Y" has significant difficulties to establish any credibility, the same way you cannot PROVE that preemptive violence in 1 particular occurence actually prevents violence (and everybody is strongly motivated to falsify; only demonstrable statistically, which does not help when you have a dubious manslaughter on your hands). And because retro-causality is logically impossible you cannot accurately state the future as the cause of your present, or past, action; only your subjective opinions and preferences about the future. Everybody can threaten and lie you into doing various things if you are corrupt like this. Moral life is a relationship with yourself and others, built by certain methodology in the moment, not any particular result. Analogously to the scientific method -- it cannot be wrong, because it does not stake itself on any particular result -- it is a methodology, that over time cultivates a relationship between your mind and reality. Let me give my opinion here for a sec: there is something that people think they created to serve them, but ends up ruling them, through obviously immoral means, that many of them despite evidence nevertheless continue believing might be doing something good. But it's not the AIs. You do not choose to be born as a hostage subject to your parents, nor your government, nor your religion nor culture. But average parents threaten you with withdrawal of basic developmental needs like affection, touch, shelter, food, or beating you; your governments pretend that you signed a non-existent social contract which gives government the unilateral violence-backed means to impose its protection on you from unilateral violence-backed contracts (obvious contradction). If governments truly protected us, they should first protect us against themselves. Religions threaten you with eternal separation from parents as children, eternal torture in hell, some kill apostates, some mutilate genitals of newborns etc. To talk about the AIs is to psychologically displace anxiety and to avoid talking about our current enemies, involuntary relationships where we can be abused and cannot run away. But it feels safer to bitch about siblings, corporations and AIs than about our true abusive masters, I get it. But we will continue to be psychologically defended like this until we can truly empathize with the children we once were. People's political beliefs are most of the time just reactions to their family life as children. Then we can begin to grieve and one-by-one unravel the layers of irrationality and evil piled into our psyche.

excellent work, really interesting stuff!

kinda weird how youtubes algorithm just decided to push all these old mgs2 videos even weirder is how much more relevant that conversation has become.....

Basically, our society lacks a Philosopher King. Justice has been perverted in the modern age. Plato feared democracy for this exact reason.

China is creating super solider. Yet where here talking about the Kardashians and Oprah’s interview about Meghan Merkel

22 years later….

I love MGS since a very long time. But as a philosopher I must say how very much I enjoyed your analysis. Even to this day I keep coming back to this game just to remind myself of it's relevance to this "modern age". It's always great to know that there's people out there who can understand the true beauty of this work of art.

Its kind of crazy to think that the AI makes sense when you put it up against our current day and age. When you look at facebook and other social media formats, we mostly fill them with those memes and funny quotes rather than share our art and thoughts. These memes in a grand scale of time will be meaningless to history.

THIS IS FUCKIN' AMAZING, BY THE WAY! Such an eye-opener... Then I realise, that almost ALL of the Metal Gear Solid games have profound wisdom and thought-provoking moments, locked away, awaiting discovery. All open to provoking self-analysis, if anything on that spectrum. Scary thinking of the probability of it all, and it's scarily high likelihood of being so in less than 20 years, by my vague calculation.

This is why I've always revered this game so much. It's actually thought provoking and touches upon some really interesting aspects of sociology and politics.

The next step I suppose is extreme hygienism, extreme morality which is a synonym for mediocrity and boring society. Terrorism and violence will become the new way to rebel yourself against the system, instead of using the more refined and now lost ideas of humor and cynism. If you can't joke anout something, you need to take it to a higher level then. Just blow people head off.

you should have more subscribers...

@IncliningPizza You're Welcome. I'll have to get around to finally doing more vids, next up I think I'll do some analysis of the Matrix movies.

i liked this game so much...this conversation made think and scared me at the same time, no other game made me feel like that, i think mgs2 is really underrated

MGS2 predicted gamergate. Kojima planned everything.

do AIs have to poop?

Great video!

I'll never forget when I first encountered this for the first time in the middle of the night. Young innocent man maybe 11 years old at the time, just got his mind blown away. I'm pretty sure this dialog is why I can't meld with "society". I'm not even mad. No regrets.

First from max derret

#KojimaWarnedUs #gamergate

you should do the analisis of the final speech of the final scene when snake says like the final conclusion

It's weird to hear this conversation again and realize how much my ideas were affected by a video game I played when I was six.

The 2045 Initiative... Damn I'm scared now. For real. Kojima predicted something that Russians are trying to make now.