I would urge everyone here to ignore Chad Haire - he is a troll and hovers over these comments like he is the gatekeeper - he has made some comments about me personally that are false and misleading . Essentially he is an individual with obvious personal issues and is best ignored. Just a word to the wise. FYI - we have tried to ban him from here with no effect- RU-vid has refused to do so. I would urge all of you to contact them as well if you are as sick of his comments as we are at Vickers Tactical. Constructive criticism is always welcome - however saying things like Chad Haire does is unprofessional and a good way to get an assbeating should we ever meet.
I notice that Chad Haire is currently nowhere to be seen... If I had talked enough shit to provoke LAV into personally assuring me an ass-beating, I'd disappear, too! Good on you, Larry, from a fellow, former, North Carolinian.
Yeah I found him in another thread a few weeks ago. That guy is a completely and utter joke. He claims to be a former writer, a SWAT officer, a former military person, and some sort of world traveler who looks at how people lube their rifles in other countries. He claims to have a long history of knowledge about metal and alloy and how they interact with lubes and frictions. He also claims to have a very long history of knowledge about historical information on how people lubed their rifles in past wars as if each soldier carefully studied chemistry and experimented with various lubes while fighting a war. Not a single coherent thought is produced and he seems to go after anyone who disagrees with him and even calls people idiot who agree with him as if they missed a very important point about something. After I confronted him about it, he erased all my comments and blocked me. This guy has a very unusual fascination with lubes. Otherwise looking at his car videos, he seems to be a cool guy. I just can't understand how or why he'd flip flop on such a ridiculous topic. I think he's trolling the lube videos because he wants to be a purist or something.
Also you'd think with someone with such in depth knowledge about lubes would be making videos about it. I'm talking about a very professional lab with numbers, graphs, figures, and various comparisons. It would also be interesting to hear about the historical information he claims to have. He could make millions opening his own history channel about gun care products. Instead he trolls the comment sections looking for ways aggravate the video maker. Very unusual person.
Unless your at war or doing some training exercises your gun shouldn't be in the dirt. I think this was a good test. Most people who over lubricate do it right after the range when cleaning your gun so 9 times out of 10 by the time you shoot it again alot of the lube that wandered to the outside of the gun has probably dried enough to where it shouldn't be a problem. That leaves the internals nice and juicy. Also dirt and dust is a temporary problem. Wear and rust is permanent problem. So its probably better to be over lubed then under lubed. Just ask your girl she will say the same thing.
What did this prove...? The whole basis for the 'over lubing your gun is bad' argument is that dirt and sand will cling to a lubricated surface more so than a dry one. Drop it in the dirt and then fire it if you want to test that. No one is arguing that pouring oil on your gun in a controlled environment to fire a few shots will have any issues..
+Alex Smyth Even in situations of under or no lubrication, the weapon would function with a single magazine. A 92fs and ar15 are both fairly forgiving in terms of how much lubrication they might need. I should also add that an ar15 runs fine dirty and wet, but it will fail if it runs dirty and dry. I would think the ar15 would succeed in a test of over lubrication but we'll never know since no test was conducted here in such a manner.
Bingo. This test doesn't show a thing. I would never doubt my AR or Glocks doused in a bucket of lube would fire reliably. Try running an over oiled gun in a dynamic gun course of any kind or even shooting for half a day in a sand pit on a dry day with an over oiled gun. You don't need to throw the gun directly in the dirt for it to be soon caked with dust, dirt, debris, etc. There is common ground in all of this. A lot of guys think a few extra drops of oil beyond what the manufacturer recommends will cause the gun to be less reliable. That is obviously nonsense. At the same token, oiling the hell out of you gun (and I don't mean anywhere near the extreme in this video) is also idiotic. I think anyone being reasonable can agree you should adequately lube your firearm and not over analyze it to either extreme. End of story.
These are also the guys that can't showcase an HK 416 firing after being submerged without cutting the video 16 times. You're really surprised they'd do something like this?
One time in the desert, I had an M2 Fifty Cal covered in sand and wouldn't function. so I dumped diesel fuel on it to wash it off. worked fine....kind of had a little flame coming from the barrel.
How cool is that story. If we only knew all the stories from every combat situation from every war, you would have ten other guys who did the same thing. You do what works. Great idea, diesel fuel still has an added lubricant..
@@bryanmahon7866 Diesel fuel here that is low sulfur and has biodiesel mixed in is not a good lubricant at all. I add 2 stroke to my tank to help the fuel pump. I do not trust those cheesy additives on the shelf. Engine oil is perfectly good for lubricating a gun. It won’t rust if you clean and lube it after every use.
I always tend to overlube as a mechanic,.of course sometimes turns into a mess, but i clean it fast as i realise it drops oils from someplace, so there is no overlube problem babies story.Whit time everything goes to normal. It atracks dust, really? so dont puit oil in it.. People are juyst crazy. thast wht it is. Dont overlube it may harm others. Really???,a gun is to kill poeple or something.and yor are worried about harm others...ok. people are just crazy.
Believe it or not, the HD knucklehead motors were designed for a little oil leakage. The advent of the shovelhead in the 60s was a better oil circulation system so that they did not have to leak. Then HD got sold to AMF and it suffered for a long time until William Davidson (the grandson) bought it back. Sorry to drift into the weeds. But yeah, guns need oil. especially semi-autos. Thirsty buggers, they are.
As a gun owner, combat veteran of a line unit, deployed to Afghanistan during OEF... A 249 Expert Marksman, M4 sharpshooter, and well over 30,000 hours of lifetime experience with both cleaning and operating firearms, I can professionally tell you that over-lubrication causes weapon MF. For two primary reasons. 1: It causes the weapon to experience cake-down. Essentially, dirt and grime and excess blast powder particles build up on the lubricant inside the weapon, and then harden into an iron-like crust as it cools and causes the weapon to jam. 2: The presence of so much liquid in the weapon, changes the physics of the weapon itself, well outside of it's operating parameters. The normal distribution of heat and pressure throughout the weapon is being tampered with, and may cause any number of malfunction, from a jam, to a runaway gun, to rounds exploding before they reach the chamber. This second one happened once with an M2 Browning that was over-lubricated. Excess heat from some of the oil traveled onto the side of a brass from an un-discharged 50cal round and caused the round itself to frag before it reached the chamber. The brass went straight out of the open bottom of the weapon and into the leg of the gunner, and landed him straight onto the next med-flight out to the hospital. SGT Williams was lucky it missed his femoral artery. He was back in action about a month and a half later. Do NOT.... I say again... do NOT EVER over-lubricate a weapon. You risk harm to yourself, and possibly others by doing so. There's no need to be that carelessly lazy with your weapon cleaning. Just clean it like you normally do, and put gentle lines or droplets of lubrication on the parts that require it. Follow your weapon's instruction manual if you ever have questions. Don't believe everything you see on youtube, even if it seems legitimate. I saw that there have been some pretty dumb responses to this video. I hope mine was well within the boundaries of what you would call "clean and professional." Thanks for the awesome video, in either case. In an artistic sense, watching a weapon go "sploosh" like that in slow motion is pretty damn cool. Rock on brother!
This needs WAAY more likes! The armorers in all my units (and probably the entire U.S. ARMY) told us when cleaning weapons after Training / Range would tell us to not over lubricate your weapon.
Hey LAV, Agreed on the myth of over lubrication. How about WRONG lubrication causing malfunctions. Grease instead of a viscosious lube used in firearms?
Well the lube obviously isn't going to be the thing that impedes the weapon from cycling. The myth is that dust, dirt, and other foreign matter will collect on lubed surfaces. I was hoping you would test that.
@@Solidgun From what I've heard the chamber and to a lesser degree the bore are danger areas for too much lubrication. In addition to the dust build up issue, the brass case exerts some friction on the chamber and if lubricated there will be greater bolt thrust. In a firearms safety class the instructor claimed that the oil would become trapped between the projectile and the barrel, and similar to a car hydroplaning, can actually stretch the bore out. I have no idea if this is true but I see no upside to an oily chamber and bore. Neither of these seemed to have any effect with this demonstration so maybe I've been bamboozled.
A few years ago i was having alot of issues with my colt .22 AR. My dad being an old car guy would always tell me "lube the crap out of it!" i never did it because of that over lube myth. than i saw this video, i instantly lube the crap out of all my guns! No malfunctions!
Yeah, any mechanic will tell you more is better. Generally, unless its a transmission or engine or hydraulic systems. With open systems like guns or bicycle chains more is always better. Plus if you're in well below freezing temperatures, over lubrication is almost a requirement. Whatever is covered in grease won't freeze if it gets wet.
See, that’s the thing, though, it’s only a myth the way it’s popularly understood. Oil, by its nature, becomes more viscous the longer it’s around as the lighter, more volatile hydrocarbons evaporate. So the result of attracting dirt/dust/sand that causes fouling is really a storage-type of concern, as you will over time get a higher viscosity oil that has become infused with dirt and dust. I’ve got a pistol in my cabinet that I took out for maintenance the other day, haven’t shot it in a while, and I could see the fuzzies starting to collect inside the barrel. That illustrates the actual concern, and, I guess, the fact that I don’t have clean-room level air-filtration. Maybe I should get one of them heppas… Anyway… So the answer is not to either leave it dry or dunk it in clenzoil. Personally, I clean after use and leave every interior surface with a coat of lube that is wet, but doesn’t bead. The exterior gets a wipe-down with a silicon rag. And firearms need to be maintained, so mine regularly get pulled out for a quick clean and relube, especially before shooting again. Bottom line, while fun to watch, this video doesn’t actually address the factual basis for proper lubrication or the telephone game that created the myth. It’s pretty funny to watch someone cover themselves in clenzoil for no good reason, though.
I honestly don't know what this proves. The myth/non-myth that I've heard is that overlubing guns will be detrimental IN THE LONG TERM. I've never heard anyone suggest that an overlubed gun wouldn't successfully cycle one magazine with no exposure to dust. I'm not saying Larry is wrong, but if you want to prove this point to me, take that M9 out of the oil bath, wipe down the outside (nobody shoots or carries it like that) then drop it in the dust just once. Then shoot an IPSC match with it.
@@anthonykaiser974 over lubrication in any system is the cause of many failures. In sliding system grease that is too think causes more friction. There is the balance between friction and load that determines the proper lubricant.
@@geraldpolmateer3255 true, but the whole point of this video is to literally EXPLODE certain myths about SPECIFIC lubrication practices in modern service weapons, not as a be-all, end-all to the lubrication argument. The guns functioned DESPITE claims they would blow up, etc.
@@geraldpolmateer3255 this is a huge false equivalency. Unless you have a fun switch and run grease outside of your springs, you shouldn’t ever even come close to this issue. To be completely fair, if you over apply 3and1 for instance, it’s going to bleed out and be blown out anyways.
exactly: The problem with over-lubricating is not the lube ITSELF, it's after lube has ATTRACTED DIRT after 400 rounds or so. But then again, I use moderate lube at CERTAIN POINTS (sides of LUGS, 4 rails below the gaskey, gasrings & the little protruding-diameter piece ahead of em, and ESPECIALLY THE CAM), the only pieces I do "minimally" are gaskey+firingpin; I only occasionally lube INSIDE the extractor (spring & its little neoprene o-ring). I don't do "minimal lube" like those people, except insofar as ZERO LUBE ON ALL OTHER BCG PARTS -- I coat all the above parts FAIRLY HEAVILY except the last 3 parts as noted, and have them lasting above average (8,000+ bolts despite having the 7.62x39 AR's..."weaker" bolts). If it's not silvered / worn, no need to lube it AT ALL...but put FAIRLY HEAVY lube on those other parts. I'll usually re-wet the 4 rails and gasrings from the ejection-port at 500 rds, then do a complete field-strip at 1,000rds.
mnminnmn yeah man, it would have been nice if the after the two men had super-soaked an old surplus firearm, they'd shoveled some sand or dirt on the gun, just to see if/when it locked-up. And follow with an edited field-cleaning job and see how much gunk there was, and if there were any signs of accelerated wear on the parts.
I always over lubed my firearms. Living on the Washington coast required a saturated firearm or it would start to rust quickly. No longer live on the coast, but the cleaning habit stuck with me and my firearms run and still look new inside.
This is lowbrow hillbilly science without context. The overlubing problem is longer term where crud DOES build up and affects firing pins (especially) and other clearances over time. Nothing is learned from over-dramatizing with one big bath of oil and one shooting session. Conversely, you could empty all the oil in your engine, drive a few blocks without destroying it, then claim that lack of oil was no problem. Drive much longer and it will seize up. Another analogy is people who think CO2 is harmless in the atmosphere just because it's good for plants, ignoring the longer term context. Smallmindedness is too common.
Well, good point Geo T, the changes we're causing to our environment through the release of CO2 'n methane are *precisely* why we're gonna need our guns... to try to survive the global food wars / massive human migrations of 2025...
Here's an idea that from the video's I've watched and from the comments I've read that people don't seem to do and that's clean your weapon after you're done shooting. Pretty sure that'll take care of any dirt that might have collected from your day of shooting or any over or under lube problem you think you have.
THIS^^^^ All of this talk about the build up of sand and dirt, blows my mind completely. The vast majority of these guys shoot in an indoor gun range and clean their weapons annually, when they get a new part or mod in, and/or discover corrosion. You’ll very rarely come to my place and be able to pull out any carbon from my firearms no matter the type. I wonder what their engine oil looks like ffs.
That delta force guy damn sure wouldn't do that to his weapon if he knew he was about to go out into the sand and dirt and mud and depend on that thing. Million dollars.
@@jammyface3041 might wanna scroll 2 comments up and read how a man got his .50 cal that was covered in sand and refused to function. He cleared it with diesel fuel. Gimme my million.
@@jammyface3041 yes I have my opinion and will take you up on your offer of the last word. My opinion is you don’t proof read what you write or can’t spell for 💩. 😂. And if you can’t do either of these things why should anybody believe you or your assertions? Mmmbyeee
Ive never had this issue with belt fed weapons, in the field I've been getting stoppages and literally poured my oil bottle into the working parts and the weapon has carried on spraying the hate down range
I went overboard with my lube on a S&W M&P9. It caused light striker hits. I caught it while practicing and have corrected my maintenance. Lube had collected in the striker channel and was preventing the striker from moving forward fully.
Awesome post! I wanted to test my M&P 15-22 and have put 200 rounds dry, and I have about twice that through my AK-47. This didn't really prove anything.
H3 he did NOT say that. You are committing the Straw Man logical fallacy. Not oiling (and/or greasing) your gun will make it run rough and accelerate wear. Saying no oil in a gun is good is just like saying no oil in a car is good. But over oiling (and/or greasing) your guns can be bad, just like putting too much oil in your car can be bad. It is all about moderation.
I've heard that high-pressure engine grease works better than oil, so I started coating my BCG with it. So far so good. As promised, it didn't burn away after a few shots like oil tends to, and it also made the rifle much easier to clean afterwards.
michael kane In my experience, gun oil (Hoppe’s, CLP, etc) doesn’t last long in storage. Tends to evaporate, and also doesn’t handle the heat of sustained firing. Clean motor oil like they’re using is better, and if storing guns for a while between trips to the range, a thin film of synthetic gun grease (or STP bearing grease from the local auto parts store) will keep the gun rust-proofed as well as cosmoline would while still keeping it 100% shootable. Grease tends to attract carbon deposits after a lot of shooting, but prevents the carbon from bonding itself to the metal, and can be cleaned easily.
@@WranglerSlim excellent observations. I didnt know that but ive seen quite a few of the well known gun guys on you tube say the exact same thing. Have a good night.
I keep a pistol in my work truck that is rarely shot, maybe 150 rounds annually. I keep it bolstered its bag next to the driver seat and it is kept wet. In case I ever need to use it, whatever the conditions, it’s ready.
In my experience, the only time over lubrication is a problem, it's with striker-fired handguns, which sometimes fail to ignite primers due to excess oil slowing down the striker; or with some free-floating firing pins like on the SKS, it can cause slam firing (very dangerous but easily fixed). I have switched to synthetic gun grease because I've found that standard gun oil dries up or runs off while in storage, leading to parts of the action being dry or even starting to rust, while other parts are dripping with oil. With strikers and free-floating pins, I usually hose out the firing pin well with brake cleaner to clean, allow to dry and then spray in a little WD-40 to prevent rust, without obstructing firing pin movement. After the WD-40 evaporates, I reassemble everything with a fairly thin but noticeable coat of gun grease, cycle the action several times and wipe off the excess. Just make sure the barrel doesn't become totally blocked with lube, as that could have the same effect as plugging the muzzle with mud (barrel peeling open like a banana when fired).
I always use a thin coating of Molybdenum Disulphide Grease It leaves a coating after the grease disappears On my shot guns slides, guides& extractors I am an engineering trades man & have used this in industry and is a proven Winner
Yeah run a mag or two through that direct impingement AR, and that oil will turn to tar, making it a fancy bolt action rifle. Keep going, and you'll get an out of battery. Look, teflon coatings for firearms were specifically formulated by the military to prevent the issues you gloriously purport to "debunk" in this video. But I guess they're all wrong and Larry Vickers is right. That's just the attitude that got you where you are now.
I have a question about improper lubrication from my point of view. This past year I needed a job before college, I worked at a gun store in Canada and I just received my PAL (Possession & Accusation License) I ended up buying a Savage Arms M10 Bolt action rifle. During the summer I cleaned it and brought it to the sand pit where after about 10 rounds the gun seized. My boss at the time handed me the rifle and explained that when the oil expanded, the round in the breach hugged the walls and would not let go. Is this a common issue, is the oil I am using garbage, and did my boss rip me off?
dont lube the bolt face. obviously he couldnt avoid it in the point proving video. but lube on the bolt face increases pressure. if you do lube it wipe it good. it is odd your bolt hung up like that. never had a savage stick a round even when I was working up loads for it. my .308 ate everything
@@donovanchilton5817 apparently you don't understand the difference between a demonstration and a test. This was the former. The latter is LAV's years of experience, 15 of it in Delta. If you and other keyboard warriors choose to make light of the experience of someone of that pedigree, that's on you. "Beware of an old man in a profession where men usually die young."
I'm new to the AR i justo purchased my first one and I noticed that was a lot of lub on all the parts so I was concerned to take it to the range like that, this answered my question, great job guys.
i store firearms in a 55 gal. drum of Mobil one. They never rust and I don't need a gun safe. Although I did slip and broke my arm when firing at a coyote.
Thanks for doing this Larry! I'm new to firearms, and therefore firearm maintenance, and I've had a lot of experience guys warn me about having too much oil on my guns.
@@certainpointofview3860 A firearm Never experiences the heat, combustion, exposure, and friction that an internal combustion engine does! You’re comparing apples to oranges here! Firearms are designed to cycle dry and allow the parts to marry and break in together. The tolerances are generous and the quality of the steels used in guns where friction occurs exceeds anything that could possibly create peening or wear.
So Guns work when over lubricated. But the attraction of dirt and grit along with retaining firing residue makes me think over lubing could cause issues after putting more than one mag of ammo down range. This video makes me think over lubing is the best way to lube but I have a feeling that's not the case. Why not try and find the right happy medium in another video?
The first time I lubed my AR, I over lubed it because I didn't know how to properly lube it. I put 300 rounds through it with no malfunctions. Now, it was dirtier than all hell, but no malfunctions.
they didnt really prove anything here other than they could remove the factor that would actually cause it to fail. now if they had dumped those guns in some sand after lubing i think it could cause some crap to happen
I love the people who argue with those who run classes and see failures and why they happen. The best part of the video is the end. Guns are machines and every machine I know needs lubrication.
Perhaps we should enter the realm of the Vickers Tactical approved lubrication of the AR system? Because, while you're right that drowning your AR in Castrol GTX won't immediately cause it to seize, filling your bolt carrier with oil and then burning/turning that oil into carbon isn't doing you any favors either. The thing a lot of people seem to miss is that you need lubrication on parts that interact. Parts that don't interact, places where there is not contact, don't benefit from lubrication and, in the case of rare tactical situation where you rub your tactical socks on the tactical carpet before jumping into a tactical tub of dust and crap which then is drawn onto your tactically static charged weapon, it can hold contamination. Or, as previously mentioned, it can burn and leave more carbon fouling. Not sure why this all is such a fantastic mystery.
@@bbllaakkeeee Well, in reality, only an idiot would use motor oil on their guns. Using the proper lube designed for could weather would negate that problem, even if it is over-lubed.
This is dangerous to put out there. Your "test" was to narrow in its conditions and the results are hyperbolic. It does not replicate realistic conditions. Obviously, over lubing your rifle won't cause it to jam when you fire 10 rounds. But in this "test," you pulled a rifle out of motor oil and started firing. It didn't have time to accrue grit and dirt like you mocked in the beginning, even though we all know that liquids will gather sand and dirt and grit. Furthermore, what do the internals look like after putting 50 rounds, 100 rounds, or even 200 rounds through? You only fired 10 rounds, and didn't show if the internals were messy or not from the direct impingement. Soldiers especially need to be aware of over lubricating their weapons while deployed. Any soldier other than myself will be able to tell you that having a large amount of lubricant on their weapon will attract sand, especially inside of their weapon even with the dust cover closed and a mag in. Just that act of walking around a FOB with your weapon will get it sandy and dusty, which is why we needed to clean them daily. Personal experience, going for bare minimum lube gave me the greatest results since my M4 didn't attract as much sand but still operated perfectly.
my weapon jammed in Iraq because I didn’t lube enough. guess what I did before my next patrol? I lubed the living crap out of my a2 and never had a weapons jam. Lube your weapons devil dogs better to over lubed then under lubed.
Honestly, I think that it matters most with the design. Glock recommends ONLY 4 drops or so with all of their pistols. A local dealer that sells a ton of used and new Glocks stated that most of the customer issues with Glocks are over lubrication. The AK and SKS, on the other hand, have very loose tolerances and need very little lubrication to properly function. My .02-John in Texas
Probably due to the polymer frame as some types of oil will damage the plastic, better to use synthetic types of lubricants on a glock. Dry spray teflon lube might be a good lubricant.
Idiots i've seen: "my gun likes to be dry, it doesn't like being wet" Me, Vickers Tactical, Gordon Ramsay: "What are you?!?!?!" Idiots i've seen: "im an idiot sandwich..."
While I agree in most cases its hard to over lube a gun into failure, to situation known as "gum up," is a real thing. If you used a high viscosity lube and it gets into the firing pin channel while gun is hot, then when the gun cools the lube thickens back up a potential gum up situation can arise. Use a quality gun lube that is the right type for your gun and this is less likely to happen. Guns like glock that have a manufacture recommended lube that is actually a grease, can gum up if you over grease and that grease drains into the firing pin channel when the gun is hot and the cools later. To much grease can indeed gum it up. Anyways few people need to worry about this. Just do not over grease a striker fired weapon or use grease when you should use oil.
This is nonsense, drenching guns in oil then immediately firing them proves nothing, try a controlled longitudinal study, have one gun drenched and one gun lightly oiled and do this in a dirty dusty environment with dirty ammo and see what you come up with.
I've never understood why anyone would feel the need to over lubricate their weapon? Especially an AR-15! All you need are a few drops of oil in a few key spots and apply some grease to the BCG. That's it!
As you stated in the video, the fear was that too much lube would "attract" dirt. To properly debunk the myth, you should have followed up with sand or whatnot and compared to a dry weapon with sand or whatnot. Don't get me wrong. I agree. For most of us, any amount of lube or no lube at all will get us through a magazine or two, should we ever need our weapon. If we need more than a few rounds and if our weapon is exposed to crap conditions before a fight, proper lubrication will keep it running. But what do I know? I just fix printers (and other IT stuff).
Me and my boys did this same test years ago but not that much oil. I find my boys and fellow officers don't have enough oil on then and the gun is dry like a potato chip. I have even told my partners who have piston driven ar15's and ar10's to keep those bolts wet to and that oil keep crud from getting caked on.
Larry I respect your service, and I feel like you know what "moon dust" is from the Middle East. That shit is no joke, and does indeed get everywhere... So there is a fine operational, pragmatic line in my opinion between maintenance, and battlefield functionality in the theater of war we have found ourselves in.
I came here to see if anyone had anything intelligent to say. Apparently not. So I'm going to lube up and drive on. My only note here is that Larry did not say anything about what type of lube to use. Whether it be grease, oil, water dispersent, copper based, zinc based, synthetic, petroleum based, or a a big gob of spit. Larry only said. Lube to the conditions. Drive on Larry.
I used to use CLP. And I still do, to clean my rifles. As for lubrication, I used to use lithium grease. And it worked fine. However, it would be consumed too quickly. So, as of now, I use copper-based anti-seize lube. It's like herpes--gets everywhere. So far, I like it a lot.
Anyone who rides a motorcycle offroad can tell you there's no such thing as overlubrication. On a gun or motorcycle chain, any excess lube (especially highly viscous lube like gun oil) tends to capture and fling any grit or particles rather than retain them.
That is the real issue with over lubing. It will lead to damage over the long haul and ballistic performance will be degraded as well. Surfaces that tend to rust should be cared for on a regular basis and only with a light coating of lube.
I'm split in two minds on this one. On the one hand part of me is thinking "well lubrication is for components which slide over one another, and any component sliding over another will push any excess lubrication out of the way anyway so the problem solves itself". Then the other part of me is thinking "over lubrication might not be an issue with a gun designed remotely well, but it might still be an issue with a shitty gun like the British L85A1, the model before they fixed its issues. It might push lubrication to the side but gritty sandy lubricant can build up there and gunk up the internals, and on a poor gun which doesn't have space for that gunk to go it might start binding up". To put the L85A1 in perspective, it was designed without a single gunsmith on the team. They took the AR-18, blindly tweaked things without any understanding of what might happen, and after they broke it they spent decades messing about with pointless things like going back and forth between do you make the buttstock stay solid and move the scope, or do you keep the scope in place and move the buttstock. Back and forth between it tens of times, decades worth of messing about later they ran out of money and were told "make it work or the project is dead" so they just changed the testing criteria so unless it physically cracked it was considered reliable and handed it out. No space for gunk like sandy lubricant to build up, of course. So yeah I'm leaning towards the idea of "over lubrication is fine as long as you don't have a metaphorical turd for a gun". Then they got HK to fix it. HK based their G36 on the same gun, the AR-18, and so a few moments letting actual gunsmiths look over the L85 and it ran just as perfectly as any other gun. Moral of the story, engineering students aren't as good as actual specialist gun designers. I wonder why it took them 30 years and a few billion dollars to work that one out... I'd have no doubt a Beretta and a Daniel Defence would work excellently under any conditions. I'd love to see something a little closer to a Tonka Toys gun like the L85A1 but I can't see it being actually useful to anything but my curiosity, plus its hard to tell if it stopped working because sand or if it simply stopped working because its junk regardless. However as a side note, the test did miss the point a little. Humorous effect and all, but the argument was a sand build up which would have taken quite a while and a large number of rounds to actually get enough sand to start clogging up the key areas. Pulling a gun out of the ol and firing it straight out showed nothing.
Some things you guys really didn't address in this video, and I'm curious as to your response. Number one would be to take those oil wet firearms and place them on one of those deer and gear haulers that attach to the hitch of a truck, find the dustiest rd you can find, drive down it for five miles and test fire the guns afterwards. Another would be to case those oiled weapons for a generous amount of time...say a month or more as this would be more than common for the guns of an average shooter...then try the guns. I'm real curious about the first one because I do watch a lot of videos from GI's wearing helmet cams, and something is making their guns stop frequently. In the latter case I do know from the personal experience of having a rather viscous lubricant sit in one of my bolt action rifle's chambers too long, that the first round fired resulted in a stuck case....ergo a locked action as well. Once it cooled I was able to force it open...then I attempted to fire again with the same results. Had to really clean that rifle to get it back to normal. I also have some weapons that fire better wet and others better pretty dry. Lastly, temperature. As you know some lubricants perform better in certain weather extremes, whether hot or cold. Excessive lubricant in very cold conditions can sometimes itself freeze up and get gummy...especially in tight areas like firing pin channels. In those cases it sometimes requires cocking and pulling the trigger multiple times before friction warms the oil and the firing pin is released with enough energy to strike the primer hard enough. I think even in your test, had you continued to fire you would have seen crud build up and ergo stoppages much sooner than someone whose gun was not over lubricated like those you shot.
I have seen weapons puke because they were too dry. One VTAC course I attended, a guy got about 600 rounds through his BCM before it puked. BCG was bone dry. Lubed it up, and it ran fine for the next 1000+ rounds. I have yet to see a weapon fail because of too much lube. Even sandy weapons work better with more lube than less. Dry and sandy = locked up. That said, striker fired weapons do NOT like lube in the firing pin channel.
Oil left in the barrel does impact my cold bore zero in my Sako hunting rifles though. Even a thin film left in the barrel makes it shoot high. But in my rifles, the bore flushed with meths and then dried with cloth jags has the same point of impact as a fouled barrel with rounds through it. So its part of my routine to flush clean the barrel before use.
So true. Even pump action shotguns. I damn near ruined one of my Ithaca Model 37's because of Frog Lube. It gummed up the action so bad it was hard to pump. I had to disassemble the whole thing and soak it in a solvent overnight to get all that lube off and then when I put it back together I lightly oiled it with Slip 2000.
Gentlemen, I served 3 mandatory years inside a small SF unit in the Golani brigade, IDF. That was about 30 yrs ago. We used the smaller version of the Galil (AR), russian AK's and US AR15's. As ligh MG we had the FN MAG, russian PK's and RPD's. Pistols were SIG P228, FN HP and some Swiss ITM's and Beretta's. The American AR by the way, was the most delicate and suffered more glitches than the rest. I am not referring to myths but to the simple fact that when a bullet leaves the barrel at tremendous speed, it may (may, not always) "overtake" the oil that is in front of it and which it pushes and this is especially true for very hot barrels. This actually causes an acceleration of wear to the barrel. And this is something that is discovered over time and not in a single experiment. The instructions in our unit were clear: oil and lubricate well, and then the barrel must be cleaned.
Hi Larry! I'd like to know more about your shooting style. You shot pistol right handed, but shot rifle lefty. Are you left eye dominant?? I am right eye dominant, but left handed. I shoot rifles right handed but pistols lefty. I'd love some insight
I'm glad I found this,I remember lubing the shit out of my gun in basic and shot a 39/40 where my buddies were all jamming up from not putting enough and having to reshoot.
So, because there is such a thing as under-lubrication there is therefore no such thing as over-lubrication? Is that the point? Or that dust and sand will not stick to a film of oil? Or maybe that a film of oil in the chamber cannot increase bolt thrust? Since you did not do this in northern Alaska during winter, I'll assume you were not trying to prove that a film of thick, cold oil cannot cause reliability problems. But other than that I don't follow your logic that because the guns used for demonstration functioned for a few rounds, there is no such thing as over-lubrication.
I don't think that's what they were going for. I think it was more the point of its better to be a little over lubed than under lubed. obviously you shouldn't douse everything in remoil but a little extra here or there isn't going to kill your firearm. you should be cleaning it on a regular basis anyway
+Nathan Griewisch Under most circumstances, yes. It is better to be a little over-lubed than under-lubed. But over-lubrication is certainly not a myth, and they didn't "put it to the test" either.
I don't need to "educate myself." I do oil my guns. But there is such a thing as too much oil, and I seriously doubt you will find a gun manufacturer who will tell you otherwise. Just about all of them will tell you to oil sparingly.
@@Possumliving there is no such thing or problem -too much oil... ok unless you shoot and particloes of oil go to your face, or you get with your hands full of oil, the solution is clean, if overlubed clean, so whats the fukin problem guys???
I know for a fact concealed carrying an overlubed gun can attract a lot of grit and grime and dirty up the gun, I also know doing so risks getting lube into the top of the mag onto the primers of the round, and wet primers are bad news.
Just some thoughts: This test ended way too soon. I think the concerns about over lubing aren't grounded in what oil does, but what oil+dirt/sand do. 1) What are your thoughts/experiences with "dry-lubes" such as Sentry Coat (I can't speak for other "dry lubes")? In my experience it lubricates great without having adhesive properties of oils. I generously brushed it on all parts of weapons similar to those in your video. 2) We should point out that cleaning any weapon is imperative, as is lubricating. 3) Magazine cleaning and maintenance is also imperative. No ammo in the chamber can ruin a perfectly good day. Disassemble, clean, lube with spray silicone or other dry lube. IMHO. 4) In order to prove the good/bad of lubes, I'd like to see testing done in dirty, and range (princes) conditions. Pick a round count, and document the following: a) Function failures b) Use calipers/micrometers (precision measuring) before and after on some likely/common wear components.
chad haire It sounds like you're not familiar with the physical properties of silicone spray lubrication. Does anyone have any actual data or experience regarding my original question? I.E., not theories you assume about or ideas "some guy" told you.
I would like to see you do that again after riding around in the desert for a couple of days, behind another vehicle where you're in its dust cloud, with the the slide/bolt locked back (with the dust cover open) and exposed to the dust cloud.
@@TimothySielbeck yeah clearly, but those two things aren’t really happening at the same time. And even then if you are gonna get sand or dust in your firearm you want it lubed to hell not dry. Regular cleaning prevents pretty much all of the supposed issues with dust attraction or retention.
Quick question: Too much lubrication may not affect the weapons fired in this video, but would it affect the roller-delayed blowback system of the H&K MP5, or the friction-controlled blowback of the Thompson?
As a general rule, the roller-delayed guns are very tolerant of over and under lubricating. However the biggest mistake I see is people lubricating the rollers and recesses in the receiver trunnion. The result being that lubrication burns off and turns into stubborn encrusted fouling in the trunnion recesses.
I think the video was not a conclusive test. Sure, drenching the gun in lube has no effect on firing by itself (except long-term fouling), but for a shooter firing prone it would trap a lot of the dirt kicked up by firing.
I’ve watched this several times and still like watching it. Surprises me that I still hear folks tell me or others to run their AR platforms dry. Good vid! Be safe and god bless fellas
I agree with your premise (and I tend to "over lube" my guns), but don't think your "test" proved anything. You took the gun directly out of the oil and shot 10 rounds. Of course it didn't collect sand/dirt/dust in that 2 second period. Try carrying it around for a month in the condition, then see if it collected grit and if it runs flawlessly. That would be the real test of this condition. Next, a 10 shot "test" doesn't prove anything. I can run a gun bone dry for 10 rounds and it'd work perfectly too. A better, albeit longer test, would require an unlubed gun, a lightly lubed gun, and an over lubed gun. Run 5000 rounds through each and compare the wear on each as well as count the number of malfunctions.
Mr. Vickers, with all due respect, as a mechanical engineer working in the aerospace industry, I tend to agree that moving metal parts can't be too lubricated. However, I was having a conversation with an Army Veteran who served in Afghanistan and he said that although it was a rare occurrence, there were issues with the almost powder-like sand turning the oiled areas into a thick, sticky clay-like substance causing malfunctions... thoughts?
I agree you need lube but in dusty conditions like I hunt in that gun would look like a mud ball in 2 hours. Remington says to not lube their semi auto shotguns in the winter because they will freeze up. I have personally had this happen.
Love your videos, but I have to disagree with the format. You properly stated the myth at the beginning of the video: "If you over-lube your guns, especially the lower/trigger assembly areas, your guns will be prone to the build-up of debris, carbon, gas, and grit because of the residual oil sitting in there." But then, you didn't test that myth in the slightest. You dunked guns in oil and put 10 shots through them. You didn't expose them to the criteria of the myth at all. Dunk your guns in that oil, then fire them in various weather conditions for a reasonable period over time and see if you begin gumming up trigger assemblies, striker channels, etc. The answer will be yes. That excess lube in places that don't need to be lubed will indeed create a troublesome buildup of gunk, grit and residue that are very capable of causing malfunction. ESPECIALLY in your GI ARs, which spray all that crap back into the action.
I haven't seen over-lubed. I've seen under-lubed from my brother in law that lives in East Texas - run many of his guns dry because they function in low elevation and high humidity. They function almost flawlessly in this state. When he brings them to West Texas - high elevation and dry desert environment, he has issues with his guns feeding and functioning. I hand him a bottle of oil to lube his gun. His guns function, but require a little maintenance to get them running. I had always chalked this up to environmental conditions. What works out in a dry desert may differ from what works out in the swamp. My point is know how your gun works and make accommodations when you change the operating conditions of your firearms.
I have seen M16 A4 rifles jam from over lubrication and poor cleaning. CLP was used for it. It caused condition 1 and 2 failures. I used the same magazines in my rifle and the other. Mags were not the problem. What happend was carbon would loosen and build a film on the BCG. This caused the malfunction. Now prolonged use with high lubrication and no cleaning will cause failures. As well different weapon systems require different level of lubrication, like machine guns.
entropy11 CLP is what the military uses. Are you trying to tell me that I am lying? I was physically holding the gum and running into the malfunctions. Whipping off the lubricant, and crud fixed the problem. The problem occured from improper cleaning. Like waiting to clean, and then shooting a 1,000 rounds. Begore the shoot they sprayed a copuos amount of CLP into the breach, and upper reciever of the gun. Doing that spraying caused all the crud to loosen into a sludge which caused the malfunction.
I know it's what the military uses. The military also the worst offender of teaching under-lubrication and other bad maintenance practices, like making sure your bolt tail is spotless.
entropy11 I already told you what caused the malfunctions, and the process that fixed the problem. The point that I am trying to make is as you keep shooting your breech becomes dirty the dirtier your breech becomes and the more lubrican that is added will cause the gun to not work properly.
TheTyrial86 I largely agree with you. If a problem is being caused by a bunch of crap and sludge in the rifle, putting more in there won't help. But the counter point remains that there have been many more problems from underlubrication than overlubrication.
