99%of the time something traumatic happened to the targ and that’s why they went crazy. Maegor-disease, Helaena-blood&cheese, Rhaenyra-losing all of her children, Gael-stillbirth, Aelora-she accidentally caused her brother-husbands death, Aerys II-Duskendale, Viserys III- literally his whole childhood, Baelor and Aerion are the only ones i can’t really find and reasoning for
From what I can tell for Baelor, his dad had PTSD his whole life and didn't do much to reign in his son's religious hysteria as a result Baelor became a religious fanatic. Aerion at least going from The Hedge Knight, his dad Maekor was reluctant to see him as a monster and a lost cause, because Aerion's older brother Daeron was basically an alcoholic loser and lost cause already, Aemon had been sent to the Citadel and Aegon was a small child at the time and his youngest son.
Considering everything Jaehaera had to endure, calling her "mad" is quite disrespectful. The girl had nothing in her life but trauma... Same with Aegon III...
Targaryen Madness isn't just clinical insanity. Acts of great daring can also be considered mad (especially if they are not successful). Jaehaerys II was just saying that the members of his family are capable of many great things and many terrible things. The only way to know who is great and who is terrible is to wait and see what they do.
I get what you’re saying and absolutely agree with the sentiment, but that’s not how other people interpret it. Misunderstanding the quote is what gets us stuff like Mad Queen Dany.
@@malavery5017Mad Queen Dany, was extremely lenient until she razed Kings Landing. And it only cost heart ache and losses. After Kings Landing being burned everybody would have bent the knee.
Sad that he passed away only after 3 years of rule as King; had he not been as sickly, he would've been at worst, a competent ruler who would've had his son, Crown Prince Aerys, reigned in better; at best, he might have gotten close to being the second conciliator, besides his ancestor, Viserys II, and would've ruled over a prosperous period in the 7 Kingdoms like his son and heir before he had it all reversed.
Honestly Chris, I think there is a very simple explanation. George writing details of the Targs and the fleshing out of the individuals of the dynasty throughout history were long after he wrote the "coin flip" remark. I also think that while George had meant historical targs to be much more mad, he started to like the targs too much as he wrote out the history of westeros. He always says he is a gardener writer afterall, and we have seen GRRM fall in love with certain characters as he writes them when they were clearly meant to be minor characters in the first place.
I've always taken the coin flip phrase as an in-universe superstition widely held about the Targaryens tbh. We shouldn't be taking those odds as actual fact.
@@ShiroAustinor it’s more metaphorical, alluding to madness not as actually insanity but just as foolish or cruel behavior. in that case, it’s a coin flip when anyone is born, but not everyone is part of a royal lineage with the ability to have complete power of a whole nation.
It's definitely just a recent history bias. Like how France is historical great at war, but because of recent events, they are characterized as cowards.
Is he talking about madness in sense of mental illness or just madness as in unreasonable actions Because this dumbass think Maegor who stabs kitten, kill horse and slashing stable boy face as a minor is not mad
Viserys is horrible, but his actions are driven by his upbringing and trauma more than erratic “madness”. He was mainly raised by his mother, and when he was eight his father and his brother’s family were murdered and she crowned him King, putting the responsibility of their entire dynasty on his head. Then his beloved mother dies giving birth to his infant sister who he now has to basically try to raise and keep safe, all while trying to get them home again. Then he has to sell Rhaella’s crown (the last thing he has to remember her by and the symbol of the responsibility she gave him) all to survive. He had to beg various people to keep him and Dany off the streets and was looked down on the rest of his life. He was an abusive and horribly cruel person but everything he did had a clear purpose or cause (not justification of course but still). I think Viserys is what Dany could’ve become if she’d gone down a darker route. A big point in her arc is to be better than Viserys and she even dreams of him in book five. If Viserys is one side of the coin Daenerys is the other and that’s how I’ve always seen it.
Y’a know it is quite curious, the targaryens were never particularly insane until around the generation of Aegon V where it begins to spike with at least two of Aegons brothers and then aerys II, curiously around the time blood raven was around….
I do like the theory that BR wasn't just hanging out in a tree with the Children and that Zoran seeing other dead dreamers wasn't a figure of speech. BR had been experimenting before that and had failures before Bran, it would make sense he would go after the family RENOWNED for their dreams first.
Well, I was thinking in a more mundane explanation: the Habsburgs in Spain where going every generation more sick the more inbreed they were (being Charles II the cherry on top, to the point it was nicknamed "The Cursed One"). I see the same happening after various generations of Targaryen inbreeding.
“When the crazies have dragons they’re ‘eccentric’ and ‘the blood of the dragon’. When I act a bit crazy I’m ‘the Mad King’ and ‘a Lunatic’ apparently.” -Aerys, probably.
I've always hatwd how the term "madness" has been thrown so easily with the targs. We don't slap it on Tywin despite all tthe awful and brutal things he's done or on Ramsey or Joffrey. We just call them monsters. At most we do it on Cersei and Dany but for both of them its because of the links to the Targaryens.
Exactly! If their last names were Targaryen they'd be considered 'mad.' There'd be no debate. I think it's just more dramatic and noticeable when a Targaryen does something 'ruthless.' Even if it's necessary and something another individual would have done in the same situation. Also look at the times they lived in. You had to be harsh in order to survive. Harsh methods in harsh times. I think it was propaganda brought about by maesters because of their fear of them. Due to the fact they had dragons and didn't necessarily follow or respect the 'common peoples' beliefs. They saw themselves as 'above' everyone else because of their connection with dragons. And honestly who wouldn't? Targaryens have accomplished some pretty amazing things. So, I think the Targaryen 'madness' stemmed from fear as well as jealousy. Madness can run in ANY family it can also be brought about by circumstance (trauma). I think Targaryens have actual dragon blood coursing through their veins (due to Valyria's love of sorcery and forbidden magics). So, their temperaments reflect that of their dragon counterparts. Some handle the blood better than others. I also think it can come out more strongly in certain individuals.
Honestly I always thought the main defining thing that made them mad was the fact that they are magical dragon people who lost their home, went somewhere else, the era of magic ended and their dragons died. Westeros just wasn't the right environment for them. Not to excuse their behavior but I feel like the thing that decided wether they're mad or not is if they're obsessed with dragons and fire or not.
This is why the madness angle for Dany in the show irritated me so so so much. She's not a perfect character--she straight up fumbles the ball in Astapor and Meereen imo--but one thing that is most consistent about her is her compassion. Time and again she puts herself at risk to help others. At one point, when people sick with dysentery camp outside her walls, she feels so bad she bathes them personally, despite her advisors protests. I'm not saying she's a messiah or unselfish, or that I even would have been against a mad Dany. It just would have taken more time and more care to convince me of it and the writers put neither of that into those last seasons. But alas... I'm not saying anything other people haven't put way better, so this rant is over
How is daenerys selfish?, and do you think ruling cities that were built and were powered by slavery which they no longer have is easy?, all the people in that universe who you think will do a better job than her will either do worse or just keep slavery so....
@@Aydan2108 She has no plans for the slaves after they're freed; slave in all but name etc. She's not mad, she's just evil and abolitionism is an easy thing to hide it behind.
@JaMeshuggah she freed the slaves and is helping them the best way she can, did you forget that the masters burned all the farms and trees so dany can not use them to feed her people?, and reading the books and thinking that daenerys is a villain is wild 💀
@@Aydan2108 she's literally crapping her life out right now; she ain't helping nobody. Blame the masters for lack of food but the slaves seemed to be fed before their cities got sacked by dragon lady. The witch who mindwiped Drogo cursed Dany and killed her baby in the womb for good reason.
@@JaMeshuggah I have to salute you because you are the dumbest person I've ever argued with, just embarrassing 💀, acting like she won't unite all the dothraki into one Khallasar and bring fire and blood to the slave masters in the next book, she is having a miscarriage and is thinking about her people while others are just dead and rooting in the snow or are doing nothing 💀, and the masters fed their property (the slaves) as long as they own them and forse them to serve them, once they saw a chance of those slaves to be free people they burned everything 💀, and a child bride who was forced to marry a warlord does not deserve to have her baby murdered just for the sins of her husband or because of some prophecy. that witch is ashes now, so praise her as much as you want 😆.
I’m pretty much convinced that Targaryen “madness” is a combination of their prophetic dragon dreams and trauma. Aerion and Aerys seem like they were having dragon dreams and so does Egg. In fact I think Egg specifically maybe saw Dany birth her dragons and either mistook her for himself (because of their baldness) or for her mom Rhaella who was at Summerhall. I tend to think Baelor was mainly a fanatic but it might be possible he was having dragon dreams as well, since he apparently prayed over his dragon egg. But he also burned all the copies of Barth’s Unnatural History that details dragons so who knows. With Rhaegel we just don’t have enough info.
100% agree.i think all the madness can be justified with dragon dreams being misunderstood, or maybe dragon dreams being send to them specifically to make them do stuff that would take them to our timeline
One thing i always wondered, why when Deanys targaryen had a prophetic vision dream of the doom of Valyria it turned out to be true and ended up saving her family and giving rise to their kingdom but every other targaryen who had a prophetic dream after that ended up costing them their life or misinterpreted it and led to their doom like why was Daenys dream so clear and correct and helpful but after that dragon dreams were basically a death sentence.
I think it's because she was closer to her culture and because magic was stronger during her time all the Targaryens after her were born when magic was weak so they couldn't harness the power like she could.
Because Aenar hired the faceless men with Lannister gold from selling them Brightroar to kill the firemages keeping the 14 flames in check. So I doubt Daenys even dreamed anything, and it was just the cover given by Aenar to cover up his hands in the events that led to his minor family suddenly becoming the most powerful dynasty in the world. #TheDoomWasAnInsideJob
Why did they use the JonCon trigger for Dany? Bells mean nothing to her and using it as her convention in the show didn't make any sense. Also what about Egg? He destroys most of his family on a hunch and his obsession with dragons. It's likely he used wildfire and sorcery, knowing how volatile it is. That is beyond rash, that is madness.
They used the trigger for Dany because they were rushing to end the show and go work on Star Wars, and they cut out the entire FAegon subplot. So they just mashed disparate, incompatible pieces of what remained together to make their ending.
Don't forget cerci who compared to the mad king twice in the same book and is obsessed with wildfire Kings landing will be burned before Dany even shows up .
Realistically there were like 4 mad targs, and that’s being generous, Baelor, (although you can argue he was just a spurt zealot) Aerion, nuts with a hint of dragons dreams to push him further in his unhinged ideas, Aerys II who just went crazy after a lot of personal loss and then mistreatment. And this last one is a stretch but Maegor, tho personally I think he was just more cruel after his coma than usual, like all his remorse (what little he had) died in his coma. Plus he too was fucked with by his second wife who kept killing his kids. Some people might say Viserys (son of Aerys II) was mad but nah, he was just paranoid, angry, and had been backstabbed so many times from a early age that he had become a “screw them before they screw me” kinda guy, which is probably why he confronted Drogo the way he did, because to literally everyone it seemed as though Drogo was just gonna marry Danny and not invade Westeros, and Viserys couldn’t lose his sister to this dude, his ultimate plan was to screw Drogo over I think, but obviously Drogo beat him to it
Viserys was not mad. He was arrogant, entitled....and angry. Sure, he was a pretty shitty person, but, as a preteen, he was tasked with raising his infant sister while running from people who wanted him and his sister killed. That's a lot for a twelve-year-old. This is what I love about Martin's universe... very few characters are completely black and white.
@@janellejulianajoy that’s pretty much what I and Quinn said yes. Although on a recent re-read of a game of thrones he was definitely more cruel than he needed to be honestly. But still not mad
I think it's important to note that some many of the "mad" Tagaryans wouldn't actually qualify as insane that is through a modern lense. In a medieval world unrestrained cruelty, last and and even incompetence are often seen as madness when they have fewer explanations for them.
Madness and insanity was not as common as people claim, but i believe the coin flip, while being anti-targaryen propaganda, was also about the fact that less than half of the targaryen kings were good, while the rest was bad with some cases that were in the shades between ok and incapable, and with the perception from the people, someone like Aegon the Unworthy, Aenys the first and Aerys the First must have looked like incapable, mental kings.
Thank you for not counting Daemon offing his "Bronze Wife" as something that actually happened. That's the only "change" from the books in HOTD that I hated. It was not necessary.
Also adding on my previous comment the targaryens who were mad didn’t start out that way and only became so after severe traumatic (both physical and mental) experiences and only in later generations did they start to be born that way such as with aerion and rhaegal
Well done vid , i've had similar debates in the fandom for many years arguing a similar point to this vid. The coin flipping saying in terms of Targaryen madness has always been massively inaccurate and hyperbolic . As a whole it really isn't a prevalent thing. A handful or less of mad Targs (most of which had some type of causality like trauma , injury , disease etc) out of dozens of family members over a 300 year dynasty just hardly anything. Even less so as some of those madness occurrences are explainable / a clear cause.
I think the Targaryens were more subtly mad, or perhaps unbalanced, rather than stark raving mad. Many of them are grandiose and tempermental beyond what would be considered normal.
22:41 and the northerners being so suspicions of Daenerys and not welcoming her as they did on season 8, would have made more sense if she had fought the war in the south and thousands died as a consequence of it. The mistrust of the northerners towards someone who was coming to save and protect them with all her might and dragons did not make any sense in the show. Sansa not liking Daenerys didn't make any sense. They knew nothing about her. So far she had been a good person. One who risked her dragons to save the king of the north. One who prioritized the war against the dead to protect the living over her own cause. And they would know all that she has done in westeros in fighting to end slavery and to punish the slavers. The westerosi were no longer practitioners of slavery, so they would see more things in common with Daenerys. Wanting to leave the big twist to the end of an alleged madness in Daenerys was the greatest mistake they made. The show should have ended in the north. Her story would have been a tragic one. Someone who was too distracted in wanting the throne of her ancestors, and ended up killing thousands of those whom she swore to protect. And then the people of westeros would mistrust her, yet they would still recognize her value in the end in helping to stop the white walkers and wights. Perhaps Daenerys will become more ruthless as a result of bonding with her dragon, but not mad.
If Dany does go mad and it has to be in character, one thing I could see is her becoming convinced that the status of smallfolk in Westeros isn't actually _that_ different from slavery, and as a result trying to eradicate feudalism itself in Westeros by fire and blood.
it's a coinflip between "madness and greatness" but most of them are kind of "normal and a little incompetent" which is neither mad nor great, the coinflip happens for those who are in the right time and place to make the biggest decisions of them all. so....since we have three possible Targeryen heirs, one will go mad, one will become great, one will be neither or both.
I've come to despise that lazy. "Targaryens are either great or mad at the flip of a coin" saying. There's been a lot of Targaryens over 300 years of Westorosi history. A handful of them were mad, many of them were great, some were mundane, and some were straight up a-holes. I especially despise it since D&D tried to use Daenerys' bloodline as an insta excuse for her going mad in the series finale. When they decided to turn her into the Mad Queen, they should have used more development than Dany was triggered by some dumb@ss bells.
Targaryen madness is a myth produced by the Maesters and the Andals! Maegor I - His madness stemmed from not having an heir, stillborns, and head trauma from trial by seven and the dealings with the faith militant. Saera - wanted to be liberated. Aemond - went mad from being bullied by his brother and losing his eye from a fight against his nephews. Helaena - went mad from grief after witnessing her son, Prince Jaehaerys being killed by Blood and Cheese. Baelor I - His madness stems from his religious zealotry and extreme fasting. Rhaegel - He was odd. Aelora - Grief stricken from accidentally killing her brother/ husband. Aerion - He was a Dragon Dreamer Daeron, son of Maekar - Became a drunk due to dragon dreams. Aegon V - Wanted to revive dragons. Aerys II - His madness stems from paranoia of Tywin Lannister, having too many stillborn children and being a prisoner for 6 months by the Darklyns which traumatised him. Viserys III - His madness comes from frustration that him birthright was taken away by his cousin, Robert Baratheon. Daenerys going mad and killing innocent people in King's Landing in the Game of Thrones TV Show ruined her character! I believe that Bran made her do it so he could usurp the throne for himself!
I get that you're Targs apologists lmao - POV character's, Narration from fool's, Singer's and Letter's and Maesters accounts (WRITTEN BY GRRM) If they all wrong may as well just invent your new fan fiction Maegor before getting smack in the head, - stab kitten castle ✓ - butcher a horse that kick him ✓ - slash a stable boy in the face that witness ✓ LUCKY HE RAN - every fish wife and commoners in dragon stones literally avoid him at all cost In all honesty, without Dragons these targs will be bashed
Saera wasn't just "vibing", she was a malicious brat that took advantage of her position to force others to do demeaning and dangerous acts. She revealed what she was when her father cornered her.
My theory on if Dany goes mad is that in her efforts to help ppl it all goes wrong. Like in trying to stop the long night one of her dragons dies and proceeds to kill innocents. I think she’ll take a pretty serious injury here too that’ll put her out of commission for a while and if events continue to play out like the show, this is where ppl start to see Jon as a better king than her, amping up her insecurities. In her fight in kings landing she accidentally sets off all the wildfire just like her dad wanted to do before Jamie killed him and accidentally levels the city. These actions will function like the duskendale kidnapping and make her snap. She starts thinking everyone is an enemy to the ppl she’s trying to save and starts burning them via drogon. It’s at this point I think Jon Snow will probably kill her
@@Aydan2108 whether Jon is a bastard or not is irrelevant. They made him a king in spite of it in the show and Robb (likely) named him heir as king in the north in the books.
I agree. Lossing the dragons seemed to have increasingly affected the line. I theorize the inherit magic in the Targaryan bloodline that made them dragonlord's had no outlet. Without dragons to bond to they were more emotionally unstable and became worse King's and parents. It also seems to have increased the frequency of Dreamers in the family. Although, that might just be because they were getting closer to the impending event. This is also around the time the Targaryan's increasingly married outside their extended Valyrian kin group. Usually, generations of that much sibling incest would have rendered them infertile on mentally difficint, but it wasn't until _after_ they started marrying those that had no Valyrian blood that the real problems began. Gives weight to the theory that the, "blood of the dragon" is more literal then even the Targaryan's themselves knew.
I love your videos I would love to see a video about Daenerys Targaryen life! Like what was she doing when she was a little kid and separated from her family.
So psychological disorders can be induced by exterior events. Your propensity for insanity is genetic, but it still may only come about from exterior events. I could argue Visenya went mad, and Maegor was certainly mad (the paranoia to kill all of the masons of the Red Keep shows madness). Aegon 3 and that one who Princess lived in Harrenhall could be potentially mad because of their losses. Some individuals self medicate their psychological disorders- I think Aegon 4 and Daeron (son of Maekar) can be considered. We know more about Aegon 4. Breaking under pressure can contribute, so Aegon 5’s decisions that led to summerhall could be considered mad. Just because he had a goal, the goal was crazy and the method was crazier. We don’t know a lot of the Kings or family between Aegon 3 and Aerys 2. The point you are missing is that the coin flip is just a saying. Remember the other side of the coin? Greatness? There are even fewer great Targaryens. Aegon and Jaeharys really are the only two kings. The Dragonknight could be considered great too. All the Targs I mentioned 100% lost their grasp on reason at some point, which in a way is true madness Edit- Rhaegar definitely looked like madness was brewing. Yes his actions had reason, but you’d have to be mad to absolutely destroy all of your alliances and hide away during a war for the crown. Disregard for self preservation is 100% madness, and his prophecy obsession absolutely destroyed that.
Say U r saying, U r another one of this Delusional Targaryen Hater Without actually saying it lol😂🤣... Only 2 of them are Great?? 🤣😂. What a Joke lmao🤦😂🤣... What about Visenya, Maegor, Daemon, Daeron 1, Daemon Blackfyre, Bloodraven,. Etc etc?. Now, Some of these Men may be Terrible and Cruel but Great nonetheless. Understood??
Yeah also, I forgot to add Dany, Jon Snow and even Young Griff, as All the 3 Head of the Current Gen Targaryen Dragons are all way more OP in the last 2 or 3 Centuries lol...
I believe that Daenerys won't at all be involved in the burning of King's Landing. Not if we have Aerys Reborn on the horizon and a war criminal wannabe. I don't think she will be mad or evil in any sense.
Extreme cruelty and total lack of compassion is a form of madness, such a brain doesn't work properly. Madness can sometimes be more subtle than acting like a complete weirdo, there is a spectrum. And it can also not be from birth and be triggered by trauma. If you look at most psychopaths who certainly have some mental dysfunctionment most of them have had terrible childhood.
God damnit lol-I have to make a 2nd...which is a 3rd now, comment! I want to thank you for keeping your videos like this in text. GRRM has created something special here, something unique and HIS alone. IT IS literally AWESOME and I ALWAYS appreciate peeps who keep it in text-to his creation. Speculation is great-it is intended. I think it only matters if it is kept in context of the full story. YOU, and a fewsome others, do exactly THAT.
I think that Baelor was quite sane before, but he became a lot more... religiously zealot and fanatical after he was bitten by all those snakes. That snake venom must've messed with his head.
Calling Jaehera mad is the most disrespectful thing I’ve ever heard. The girl was highly traumatised no one is calling Ageon the third mad and he was depressed whit his whole life
Bearing this entire video in mind, it’s also important to point out that King Aegon the third had more valid reasons, then almost any other Targaryen to go mad and didn’t. It is some thing that I hope people who believe this mess can finally come through and get over themselves with thinking this.
Maegor was mad and I will die on that hill. He massacred the Faith militant. He was paranoid and tortured everyone who was not following his orders until they confessed whatever he wanted. (Just like what Unwin Pealed did to Thaddeus Rowan) Also: Tyanna confessed her crimes before torture because she knew she was going to be killed anyway.
i mean i would have 100% massacred the faith militant as well and i can only consider that not only a great tactical choice but a big part of how Targs reigned for as long as they did. I don’t think if the faith still existed militarily the dynasty would have lasted.
Meagor was a sociopath but not insane. Many Targaryan _men_ show signs of having personality disorders like narcissism or psychopathy. But that's half expected in the culture and environments they grew up in. I'd say they have a family propensity toward personality disorders but that Bealor, Aerion and Aerys II were the only members that could be considered to be clinically insane.
Rhaegar The toothless dragon was mad and brought an end to his house and his family for vague prophecies. And he dishonored his wife and children to galavant with a teenage girl. He was intentionally alienating House Stark and House Baratheon. Anyone who thinks the dragon could do whatever it wants is mad.
The coin flip need not refer to madness, of course. At least, not in the strict sense. Rather, it could mean "reasonable" on one side of the coin, and "murderous" on the other.
Personally, I don't think the Targaryen madness comes from incest but rather is the result of "blood magic", the same I propose was responsible for allowing them to tame and control dragons, when it becomes too thin. Aerys II was the byproduct of two half-Blackwoods as his parents, Jaehaerys II and Queen Shaera were born to Aegon V and Queen Betha Blackwood. Aegon V was born a half-Dayne as Maekar I was married to Princess Dyanna Dayne. Maekar I was born a half-Martell as his father was Daeron II and Queen Myriah Martell Daeron II was the byproduct of the last truly incestuous marriage in the family, as his father Aegon IV was married to Naerys Targaryen. I will also note that while Aegon IV and Naerys were technically half-Rogare, the Rogares were of Valyrian descent despite being Lyseni, thus supporting the theory somewhat that the Targaryen insanity came about after many generations of marrying non-Valyrian families. I honestly feel like it was something worth looking into even if it isn't anything more than a theory and something not meant to be looked at seriously. I just find it ironic that some of the finer examples that we see of the Targaryen madness comes from members of the family who came after generations of admixture and admittedly were not pureblood Targaryens but half as we see with Princes Rhaegel (half-Martell) and Aerion (half-Dayne) and kings such as Aerys II (half-Blackwood) and Baelor I (minor example as he was one quarter-Harte through his maternal grandmother)
Imo there’s no such thing as “Targaryen Madness”. They’re royalty and from a race of people that practiced supremacy, of course some of them are going to be batshit crazy, and it’s not like there’s a whole lot of them that even had the “madness”. Maegor, Baelor, Aerion, Rhaegel, Aerys II and Viserys is only 6 people, everybody has had 6 crazy people in their family.
I always wanted to go down the more medical route for it, which would also mean not taking the half part literally. Them going mad would be likely as a result of incest, which would get more and more likely as the lines get more blurred, so to speak. We know this happens and would therefore make people like Viserys and Daenerys (the last of the line) a much higher candidate for madness.
I think Daenerys going mad is a given. I had the feeling it would happen long before GoT went downhill in seasons 6, 7 and 8. Just from reading the books, you kinda get the feeling she'll end up losing it.
Reading Mad King Aerys’s plans I see echos of dragon dreams. Canal under the mountains to dorne feels like some metaphorical misunderstanding for a passage beneath THE WALL potential referring to bring spring with the imagery of desert -> life. Larges war fleet. Euron dreams A second city to kings landing. One shit city and one Marble, kinda reminds me of Volantus. Maybe a reverberation of whatever Daenaerys does to liberate their people. Build new wall, fear of the threat from the north
aerys is very curious because his paranoia increased with the arrival of varys, the stillborn children could have been due to the influence of the maesters, after all the children were not born malformed like dragons, but normal and died soon after. and valdocasto, your obsession with green fire started after that, all I can think about is basilisk blood, what happens to someone who survives that? but I do not deny his insanity.
I think you should also look at it from the peoples prospective. Prophetic dreams would seem pretty mad to the common person and the other lords, like take Brightflame for instance imagine your king thinks he is an ACTUAL dragon and drinks down a bunch of flammable stuff out of no where and promptly kills himself. That would seem like he lost his marbles to me lol
I would like to know your definition of “mad”, because Maegor was absolutely mad. He killed one teenage aged nephew so steal his throne, the tortured and killed another because his mother ran away with his sword and hostage niece and nephew. He also tortured and murdered one of his Wives. You cannot sit there and tell those are the acts of a sane person. Also Daeron was mad as well not in the insane sense but in the lake of empathy for the thousands of men he led to slaughter. I also think Serra was mad as well not in the fact that she did anything wrong but in FaB you can see the sociopathic switch flip when she ran out of excuses and how manipulating she was.
I see it that half of Targaryens weren't necessarily born mad from the complications of incest (it's a fantasy world with different rules). Rather the Targaryens faced a greater evil of great expectations from the moment of their birth and with their immense power, along with their prophecies and dragons, it's no wonder why most Targaryens aren't good. Targaryens' and their strive toward greatness often leads one ambitious member to corrupt a family line and others, usually the good ones, fall through the cracks either die forgotten or die as a result of the Targaryen power grab. They are a family of tragedy but keep to their tradition which they hope might save them when it easily destroying them.
You talking about madness as mental health, or questionable actions? Is Jofrey "Baratheon" mad? He is evil but not mentally ill, people call him mad! Also the pov character's narrated this not maesters Some of the statements is also coming from, fool's, Singer's and letters Are they all wrong, if not how do you know, the SOURCE is the book written by GRRM, you can't say everything is propaganda if it doesn't fit your narrative
I think you need to define your concept of madness in this video as it is fair to argue that Maegor, Aemon II, Rogue Prince are all mad but don't fall into what you define as mad. Madness can give connotations of being cuckoo bananas, but I would say following logic to extreme ends and extreme violence could be a fair interpretation and one many more Targs fall under. This may not be because of their bloodline, but more because of the upbringing, dogmatic beliefs and institutions they are born into.
Jaehaera wasn't mad-you're so right! Jaehaera was as empty as Khal Drogo, in the end. This was all supposed to be one commect. I am so sorry-I have no idea wtf I am doing wrong.
I don’t think Dany will die or go mad frankly I don’t see the point of that what’s the point of this girl who was essentially a tool for the men around her gaining strength within herself and using that strength to free the downtrodden?! What’s the point of bringing back dragons into the world something’s the author described as a miracle only for them to die in the end?! What’s the point of a story with so much misogyny only for the only queen ruling in her own right dying in the end or going mad?! What’s the point of having the first book start with ice zombies and end with the birth of dragons (fire made flesh)?! Dany’s is Azora Ahai and I think her story will either end with her rallying the people of planotos to help fight the long night once that’s done she’ll live probably being queen of Essos or Westeros or finding the house with the red door and living the rest of her life there with Missande,Erri and Gkwii and her dragons Her story always reminded me of Aang from Avatar having to juggle with the destiny she was given being Azora Ahai/Queen and her own personal desire’s of wanting a simple life with friendship and family
*"What’s the point of having the first book start with ice zombies and end with the birth of dragons (fire made flesh)?!"* What is the point of A Song of Ice and Fire opening with ice and ending with fire. Hmm.
i think the "point" danys story is all about nuance, its to chalenge the notion that a lot of other fantasys have that if you put a person with good intentions as king everything will go swimmingly and that keeping peace and ruling is alot harder than it seems. while i dont think she will go "mad" and decide to kill everyone out of nowhere i do think when she arrives she will be seen as a forign invader and people will prefer other leaders like young griff and jon and that + a vengefull tyrion in her ear will lead her to become more and more brutal
Dany story is written as a liberator and mother. Her fight ending at the long night destroying said white walkers who hold the bodies of the dead make it more poetic. She will not go mad, we got Cersei and JonCon covering that. If i do recall, an early draft of grrm had the main characters which i believe were like 7 of them? survive at the end of the story which included Dany.
@@asura7915 I feel like people forget that everyone in Westoros knows who Daenerys is and know she's still alive even peasants at white harbor know who she is and are secretly giving toasts in her name for freeing slaves, so them seeing Dany as an invader I can see that happening especially with Varys spreading rumors but young Griff is definitely going to have his legitimacy questions since he's only just now making his appearance known to the world Also Tyrion being the devil on Dany's shoulder is also unlikely as her plotline in ASOS and ADWD has been her learning to distinguish between good and bad advice.... Her ADWD chapters she's surrounded by sketchy people who give her the most extreme advice Daario at one point tells Dany to commit a red wedding and she flat out refuses even Jorah someone she loves and cares about Dany never fully trusted him or listened to his advice... So Tyrion a LANNISTER she's not going to trust him or listen to him even if he finds away to gain her
Thanks for the vid. I prefer the term “unwell” than mad. Disorders like narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy can be within that unwell bracket. When the gene pool too shallow because of many incestuous relationships, it decreases a person’s resistance against diseases, including mental diseases. It doesn’t mean that they are automatically born unwell, but they might have an increased vulnerability for many diseases. And I find it ironic that the Velarians liked to “keep their blood pure” because they thought it gave them power, but it left them wide open in the end. Their pride, greed, and fear of losing power led to their downfall. I love your calling the show’s downfall of Dany as a bell activated microchip in her brain 😅. I think your theory instead is quite plausible.
This video refers to book canon. I use footage from the shows to help illustrate my points, as well as discuss variations between book and show canons. If you’re referring to Aegon’s prophecy from HotD, yes that is also book canon according to GRRM, though the specifics of Aegon’s dream are not known.
@@CrusaderChris Okay makes sense. I think the Aegon prophesy and Daemon killing Vaemond were the two main things that made me question that. (Technically Rhaenyra has him executed in Fire and Blood. I can't remember if it was specifically said that Daemon beheaded him.)
@daveid9271 Ah. In Fire & Blood, Daemon seizes Vaemond and then his head is removed. It’s not stated who beheads him, but it makes sense for Daemon to do it in my opinion. But I should have been clearer that we don’t know for a fact who beheads Vaemond.
Aegon V had a strong desire to help the people, but without the dragons he didn't have the power to make changes. You can't ignore the most powerful house, the Targaryens have always been under a lot of scrutiny and many feared them with dragons, in addition to various conspiracies from the noble houses, religion of the 7, the militant faith.
The Targaryens is actually mediocre at best without their dragons. They start relying on loyalty of other House's, then when people fed up they just get toppled easily. Lannister, Hightower, Stark, Baratheon have more impressive people with feats without dragons
@@user-ek5mq7qp5q you understand that the hightowers were always conspiring against them, the faith of the 7/militant faith, aegon II and the maester. Tell me any other leader who wasn't mediocre? ned stark? Robert Baratheon? tywin was a good hand, but his priority was always his family. I understand that in the north things are simpler, but that doesn't mean they are good leaders, in the first episode Ned executes the member of the night patrol and instead of investigating, he just let it go and in Porto Real it was disastrous like an elephant in a glass store. Apart from Tywin, I don't remember any notable words, there was the first idiot who fought against Aegon the Conqueror, there was another who fought for Aegon II and there was Tywin's father who was made a fool of. Of the Baratheon, no one who did anything but mediocre, the drunken, prostitute king who sank the kingdom into debt and dried up the other Lannisters, had another who supported Aegon II. no one really who was remembered as jaehaerys who established roads, aegon the conqueror who united the kingdoms that lived in his eternal war of the 5 kings, daeron reigned with wisdom and abundance, removing the corrupt from the court, united dorne with peaceful treaties and defeated the blackfyre punishing his allies by taking away their power and wealth to weaken the subsequent revolts, viserys II was excellent, He was an excellent hand of the previous king, like Tywin and Barth. He only reigned for a year, but as always westeros kills the good, even maegor ended the militant faith that only wanted to cause chaos and destabilize the kingdom(probably those responsible for the death of aenys, a good guy) was what allowed jahaerys to be so successful in his reign. Please name me someone good. the lannisters in one generation brought out the worst of all the tagaryen, joffrey/maegor, tommen/baelor, cersei/aerys. So tell me that another ruler in Westeros, other than a Targaryen, had such a positive influence on the entire kingdom
@@user-ek5mq7qp5q I forgot about Stannis, in the books he is not a religious fanatic yet, but a strict and fair one, he would be a good king. but Westeros would never accept him. Your younger brother is just pompous.
Another fantastic video. I know you talked about the Defiance of Duskendale in this video but would love to see you do a stand alone video on this event in the ASOIAF history. The Rains of Castamere is another I would love to see you do. I know you can find other videos on these events on RU-vid but would be interested in your perspectives of these events.
Thank you! The Defiance of Duskendale will be covered in greater length in my Aerys II video when I get to it. Although I’m still on Baelor the Blessed, so it will be a while
Dany is not mad. She was pissed off and angry when she burned kings landing - the city her family built was usurped and her loved ones were killed in front of her when she came to offer peace - she was angry as would we all be so I’m still on her side - Dany is not mad - if she is then I am
I'm sorry but Maegor the Cruel, Baelor the Blessed, Daeron I and the Mad King were definitely crazy, in my opinion. Trauma or not, extreme stupidity, delusion or aggressiveness counts as madness.
Did he tho 🧐 By that logic, Daeron actually conquered Dorne twice, and so did Aegon the Conqueror. Doesn’t count if you can’t hold it, in my opinion at least.
@@CrusaderChris I explained in detail why he was successful in your Daeron I vid funnily enough, but to summarize it briefly, he both managed to conquer Dorne, without dragons, and then suppressed a rebellion (possibly one of the hardest ones in the history of Westeros due to the climate and people of dorne, which meant that men and woman fight so double the expected numbers of resistance + it was guerrilla warfare) and then once the lords threw in their lot with the rebels (not all lords but many) Daeron came down, beat them once again, and then had the grace to entertain peace talks, when he could have just gone on destroying them. Basically he and his forces won 3 separate conflicts back to back, in which the most success the Dornish had was during their surprise attack on the Targ forces right after the conquest, which was really a genius attack considering they took out the commander in chief of the Targ army in Dorne. He literally never struggled in any of the conflicts and was always on the winning path, and he only died because the Dornish betrayed their honour and his chivalry. And nah Aegon didn’t conquer Dorne he just burnt the crap out of it with Visenya
@billychops1280 Oh I’m not disagreeing that Daeron had the Dornish beat. But defeating Dorne utterly in war is not the same as conquering Dorne and adding it to the kingdom. He beat them, but he didn’t accomplish anything, and he got tens of thousands killed in a needless war. He wasn’t wise enough to realize that the only way to truly conquer Dorne was not by use of force. They’d just keep rebelling over and over. That’s just my take, though - you’re definitely in the majority regarding Dareron.
@@CrusaderChris that isn’t necessarily true, Dorne just like any other kingdom can be conquered through war, what makes Dorne different is that they lack the wisdom, of the starks and northerners or just don’t care about their fellow Dornish man enough to surrender, Torhen stark could have fought the targs, and retreated north after losing (cuz there was realistically no way of them winning) but all he had to do then was hold the neck which so super easy, house reed and their men alone can do it, and even if Aegon burned the northern Castles, he’d only be able to do it in summer giving the north ample time to prepare for him and basically have a Dorne like situation where the north gets attacked every generation but is independent. But Torhen knew this would cost too many lives and cared for his people so he bent the knee, the same can’t be said of Dorne and house Martel, Daeron did conquer Dorne Twice, he then, went about securing it by taking hostages, a sound strategy, but the Dornish don’t care about their nobles, had this strategy been used in the north most the common folk would have kneeled because the northern lords generally are good and honourable especially house stark with Winterton. Basically the Dornish common folk didn’t care about the nobles and their honour. So Daeron reacted to this new chain of events accordingly, he came back down and smashed them once more. And was on the verge of completely pacifying Dorne, he had the nobles, he had beaten all the remaining nobles and common folk, and attended a peace talk to “seal the deal” but we all know how that ended. Finally 50K men lost in 3 different back to back wars isn’t unreasonable, 10K in the first invasion who died to Dornishmen and weather. We can assume 25K to 30K during the uprising after Daeron left, since this is when Dorne had the most success. Then another 10-15K to reconquer, it all over again. These numbers are totally reasonable
I think burning KL will happen, because Jaime never removed the green fire placed by Aerys in the city. But it's not crazy and what Jon does is nothing more than the cowardly 3rd betrayal that was prophesied. daenerys may kill the supposed "innocent" people of KL, but it's not madness, it could be an act of anger and cruelty that happens in war, I will never swallow that she went "mad" and deserved to be put down like a mad dog.
I'd argue that the notion that Targaryen superiority extended beyond the physical is a form of madness, therefore they all were to some extent. Jahaerys was being too kind to himself and his family.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 You won't find "madness" in the DSM. On the other hand, Targaryen exceptionalism would definitely contain traits of things like Narcissitic Personality Disorder and Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I think having a God Complex counts as madness that virtually all Targaryen's fall under with a spectrum in how severly it impacts their ability to interact with other people.
@@elaine_of_shalott6587 I don't agree with that at all and your reaching none of that constitutes to madness anybody can think like that , also saying every single Targaryen have a god complex is factually wrong like do you even know the family tree and the personality of each Targaryen or do you just assume they all act the same based on a few characters?
