My favorite mirror match is yoshimitsu, he's so complex and everyone plays him so differently. Far more so than any other character I've seen. Less so in tekken 8, they game him a few strong tools that everyone uses, but there is still such a diversity of playstyles and mindgames. Fighting another yoshi is about learning a ton of new tricks while testing to see if they know everything you do
That opening segment just reminds me of something I've taken to calling the 4-4 mirror matchup. My example here is the SF5 Blanka mirror. For SF5 Blanka a lot of his bad matchups hinge on the same thing: The opponent can punish his blanka ball on block... and Blanka can do that, meaning that even though the matchup is technically even it has to be played like a bad matchup. Overall I think this happens more when a character's answers to their own gameplan are too good, rather than the other way around. Gief doesn't have great answers to Gief, but when he's got an advantage gief is still playing like gief. SF4 honda struggles to open himself up, and SF5 Blanka doesn't have access to safe offense outside of point-blank pressure, both matchups *feel* bad, even though they're even.
@@HQRubbish back when I made it, I was always thinking about trying to animate the 3S sprites fighting against the background, but it was too much work for me at the time. Thanks for giving me a glimpse of what might have been! :D
Hugo doesn't feel that bad because there's definitely a meta and alt strat via clap into hammer mountain or leaning hard into einz zwei. I'm not gonna pretend that it's some 4D chess, but it's generally better than most grappler mirrors
I've been thinking about Mirror Matches recently and how extreme archetypes like Zoners and Grapplers are kinda not tuned for them at all. Glad to hear you go in depth on the topic!
@@feri7mble Guile is kind of, in practice, a defensive shoto though. Guile mirrors are high-paced but much more projectile and poking-oriented. I was thinking more like Dhalsim and Zangief mirrors
You're kind of wrong. Zoner dittos are their own circle of hell, yes, but Grapplers love a ditto. Potemkins will spend 99 seconds clashing for giggles, and will trade grab for grab back and forth. Ganondorfs will armor through Warlock Punches with Warlock Punches and spam Doriyah until the move had staled to the point of uselessness. DK's will constantly try for flashier combos into Monke Punch like they're playing horse. It's the dumbest and most beautiful match a fighting game can have.
@@denmark1226I personally think zoner mirror matches are interesting: If both zoners have nuanced options at long range then you're suddenly playing a proper fighting game, even if you've got a whole screen between the two of you.
I think one of my most hated a loved aspects of a mirror match is when mechanics come into effect that only ever happens in the mirror. For example Jack-O in Guilty Gear Strive has a unique mechanic on minion priority that never happens unless it's a mirror match. Basically Jack-O minions beat other minions in a clash if they have been out longer. This results in a strange neutral game whereby you can actually build a significant advantage just by being the person who pulls out the first minion even if only by a few frames. It's a strange mechanic that can lead to a lot of frustration sometimes, but it is really cool to think about and change your gameplay to adapt to.
That's actually interesting, I didn't know that. Pot kinda has a similar thing - he's the only character who really has armored moves, which means the mirror is the only time you'll see armored moves used to _beat_ other armored moves, and whoever goes second will win the interaction.
I think gimmick character mirror matches in general are the most entertaining to watch and consider. Ginyu mirrors in DBFZ are always hilariously chaotic. The more in-depth and esoteric the gimmick, the better. I’m thinking specifically of that P4AU character that jmcrofts did a video about where the character is literally trying to more or less win a baseball game and playing a fighting game at the same time. I never got into that game but I’d still watch a full tournament of mirror matches with just that character, at least as long as there was someone knowledgeable commentating on it. Same with Jack-O.
3s ken is the legit best mirror in fighting game history, so technical, so fun edit: great video bro, rebuking a theory i've had for like 15 years, THIRD STRIKE OWNS
should try ST sim mirrors, he doesn't have an answer to his own drill, and his only answer to noogie loops is frame perfect teleport reversal... have fun
I love the fact that you use this Stoner / Doom [or whatever this genre is] in the background. Makes your videos even more of a (head)banger. Would it be possible to list the songs in future video? I love finding new bands and your tastes definitely match mine.
I am of the era where your character selection was not only whom you wanted to play as, but whom you _didn't_ want your opponent to. Street Fighter 2: Hyper Fighting changed all of that. (You heard me; the OG SF2 did not have mirror matches!)
Champion Edition introduced mirrors, not Hyper Fighting. Also, more trivia on the topic: Mortal Kombat created the term for mirror matches on it's first game.
@@germanelkapo1You are correct and incorrect at the same time; if we're talking arcade releases, you're correct. If we're talking home releases, I'm correct (by a month; August '93 for Hyper Fighting SNES, September '93 for Championship Edition Genesis) Capcom releases were _weird._
@@Lenoh the topic was which game introduced mirror matches to fighting games, not to Street Fighter, so arcade Champion Edition is still the right answer. Good to know though, that explains why i remembered there being no mirror matches on SFCE
Nica's video are a gold mine for any 'good' 3s player that wants to level up beyond their plateau. He's got the tech for so many details like how to properly mash out of stuns etc. Really good shoutout.
I've been playing makoto in third strike for around 2 years, and i've been only downplaying... then i fought another really good makoto, and i wanted to cry when i got scooped into a TOD for the 9th time
Akuma vs Akuma in third strike is a very underrated mirror match, low hp, crazy mixups, it becomes not only a style contest, but a true test of knowledge.
My favourite fighting games are those where you can express yourself with your character and be both competitive and distinct within the same characters' toolset. Haven't played SF3 a lot, but feels like ken there is just what I value a lot. Mirrors - to me personally they stressed me out only when I was attached to a character to the point of wanting to prove that I'm the best. When the stress was gone I started to look at mirrors the same way I look at any other match
When it comes down to bad mirror matches, nothing comes to mind faster than Red Arremer (Firebrand) matchups in SVC Chaos. It's not necessarily because it's badly designed from a gameplay standpoint (But I do imagine it might be quite painful anyways), but rather because of the arcade hardware. Firebrand loves to spawn projectiles and minions. Multiple of these will fill the screen and make it nigh impossible to touch him. So if the other player also picks Firebrand, they too, will want to fill the screen with projectiles. This causes the game to slowdown. HARD. It might even crash the arcade hardware. Firebrand is already painful enough to fight anyways, but having what could be considered an illegal matchup just takes it to the next level
potemkin mirror matches are my favorite because both players are hyper aware of the threat of Bussin It Down, making a matchup that is EXTREMELY different to how he normally plays against the rest of the cast. or you get two gorillas spinning their sticks and mashing buttons and it's the funniest shit you've ever seen
What I love about mirror matches is that since of rock paper sisccors, rock em sock em robots, uno card game type feel. Both players have the same options but the difference is timing, excecution, and mindset. Thats why I find mirror matches so interesting. Also, mirror matches are great for playing with friends of varying skill levels.
I've been thinking about making a video specifically about this and why I believe 3s ken is the perfect character for months now, and you beat me to it. Not only that, but it's way better than anything I would've made. Props to you, incredible video
To this day I still think Ken is one of the best designed high tiers I've seen in a FG. He's really strong, but he can't just force his high tier status on you, even his cheap tools like overhead into super take some skill to do, and to even employ that mix-up he actually has to play footsies and beat you in neutral to score the knockdown. This is something I really appreciate about 3S, even the best characters still have to play the poking game very well and can go from pretty basic to very technical depending on how much you want to practice your execution. It's a shame that Yun and Chun are so strong and boring lol
Ken's super art is an amazing use of meter. Burn it to block punish, but at the gamble they wont become confident with their whiffs and footsies. burn it on whiff, and gamble on them not becoming super aggressive. its aweosme
I would say the best mirror match is Dudley vs Dudley, but I am a Dudley main but it has so much SWAG on a technical level so it becomes who can out shine the other with finess and epic combos rather than brute force his way through, tough that is also an option, to buffer Cross counter after normal when opponents would hit you from the air or punish right after with an attack that is not low. Fun times.
One reason why Ken versus Ken is a great mirror match is because Ken is 1/2 of the only possible matchup in Street Fighter 1 Ryu versus Ken which is essentially a mirror match with different physical trappings. It's possibly the oldest classic human versus human Street Fighter match up in history
"the ego death of getting hit with your own mixups that you've been downplaying for months on Twitter" Like damn dude you didn't have to go in like that 😂
i love mirror matches between vortex characters like Millia in GG or Hitman in DNF because it just becomes a game of who has the dumbest mixups since both players know all the practical mix options you should be going for
For me, one of the best mirror matchs I've experienced is Ky vs Ky in GGST. Super fast super fun and if you match a ky close to your skill, forces you to try new things as you know all what the other Ky can do.
Idk if you ever seen a Venom mirror in Guilty Gear Xrd compared to +R, but it’s super interesting how different they are, at least in the zoning stage. In +R it was usually a very elaborate projectile war where you had to position balls in certain angles & decide whether to hit them to overpower incoming balls & reach the other player, or to block & then have the upper hand with more balls at the ready. But in Xrd he got a new move with QV, which absorbs projectiles, including balls, & it also lets Venom charge up higher lvl balls. So basically most attempts at zoning would not lead to much cause it just gives the other player time to charge QV give them higher lvl balls then whatever you lobbed at them. So in many matches it just becomes an arms race to whoever can charge up the most & highest lvl balls with QV & they look pretty funny.
Tekken analogue would be the true Mishima mirror. Kazuya v Kazuya The matchup is so balanced that the person playing on the P1 side of the screen has the equivalent of playing white in chess. Since they can step to the left (countering the mixup) from crouch only on the P1 side of the screen. Kazuya has a move that is + on block and forces crouch basically locking the OP on P2 side into the 50/50 for those with the execution to do it.
It's true he has no major weaknesses, but you need to earn those knockdowns, oki and proper whiff punishing distances. Unlike Yun, he can't just rip super at any moment and turn the whole round into a 50/50 with corner carry and huge damage. Personally I love fighting Ken, because a mediocre Ken can never beat me, so when they do it's because they're doing things right and I respect that.
generally the more specialized a character is. the more miserable the mirror match was. i remember LOATHING claw mirrors in SF4 and i despise them in ST since i play dhalsim. but when you play a more all round character. mirrors matches go from the worst experience to THE most fun way to play the game. ken mirror in 3s is up there for sure of being the most fun. tbh for me my vote would go to ryu mirrors in ST, dio mirrors in HFTF, evil ryu mirrors in SF4, or any match up in SFEX2+ lmao. damn i'd kill to see a theory fighter video on EX2+'s excel. as personally it fixes the problems every other game has when it comes to custom combo.
Imagine the scenario where a previously unknown 12 main wins evo 2024. Never gonna happen but if it did i think it'd be third strikes equivalent of "panda? Really!?"
i’ve never thought of how mirror matches are for certain archetypes like zoners/grapplers since i gravitate normally to rush down characters. Can’t imagine going honda for honda holding charge 😂.
I am an N. Ken ST player and I love the mirror as well. I used to play boxer and the mirror is unbearably stupid. Shoto mirrors will always be the best mirrors for demonstrating the player
Honda v Honda in sf6 is also annoying, when I encounter a player named pastafiend in ranked its always back and forth. They play defensive and I play offensive, all our matches basically boil down to me getting in and mixing to death or pasta successfully keeping me out
