The Perilous State of the University: Jonathan Haidt & Jordan B Peterson 

These are probably the two people in the top two spots on my "want to meet in person before I die" list. If only to shake their hands while trying not to say something dumb.

Feels like a meeting between two Jedi Knights.

The way jordan Peterson uses his hands when he talks makes me think he’s an undercover Italian

"When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure comes in to fill the gap." -JP Holy crap, that's huge. I can't believe he said that as a passing thought.

Can you feel it? The rebirth of something? Here online, and in quiet libraries, and in those moments where eyes meet and you find another soul who sees it. Don't let the flame flicker and go out.

I couldn't decide whether or not I wanted to listen to Jonathan Haidt or Jordan Peterson, and then I found this video...

*Personal Notes* [11:24] Correlation of Disgust with Progressivism vs Conservatism [14:07] Purity & Sacred Symbols [14:58] Exploratory Behaviour of Children / Mother as Reference for Center of the World [15:56] Campus turns into a sacret safe space [18:53] Political Core Issue: Openness and Borders JP: «The conservatives want the borders between categories to remain intact no matter what level of analysis. From Abstract levels of analysis to the actual physical borders of rooms, towns, states, countries. They're like "the borders should be thicker."» From a study: «What they found was, the higher the prevalence of infectious disease, the higher the probability of bottom-up authoritarian political attitudes.» On the on hand Hitler's basic metaphor was that the Aryan race and country was a pure body and that it was assaulted by parasites, on the other hand, when the Europeans showed up and shook hands with the Native Americans, 95% of the latter died within 50 years. As another example: the European expansion produced a tremendous interachange of ideas from all around the world - that's globalization - but as Europeans started to move around the world they brought back rats and the black death wiped out somewhere between 30-60% of the population at the same time. [21:50] *The Omnivore's Dilemma* «That border issue is what separates conservatives from liberals. The conservatives say, the novel is potentially contaminated. (It's not so much that it's dangerous, that's different, that'd be fear). And the liberals say, hold on a minute, if you make the borders to thick, then informaiton can't pass through.» *A behavioral Immune System* «We have the same attitude towards abstract information, so we can think of an invading idea, or a polluting or contaminating idea.» [23:46] «So wouldn't it be good, if in every society or every organization we had - some people who specialized in saying "hey, what are the opportunities" and - some people who specialized in saying "well, what are the risks?". It just so happens that a lot of people having trouble doing that all in themselves.» «There are people with - different personalities, - different motives - and different goals. Yeah, we could have a discussion between them, that'd lead to far better results. It's for that precise reason at least, that free speech has fundamental value.» «The liberals start businesses, but they can't run them. And the conservatives can run them, but they can't continue to transform and expand them. ...yin and yang.» [25:01] *What happened in Nazi Germany* «If you're afraid of something, then you'll run away from it or freeze. But if something disgusts you, then you'll try to burn it or kill it, atleast get it away.» Hitler - first fought tuberculosis, - then demanded factory owners to get rid of rats and mice and insects with Zyklon-A, - then he used a variation of that gas and attempted to "clean up the asylums". You can see how the categorization of impurity (or contamination) escalated: - first it was public health, - then social cleanliness, - then he went into the asylums. [27:19] *Disgust and Moral Elevation* Disgust is a reaction to things that seem to be degrading, metaphorically mostly referred to by a vertical scheme. [31:16] *It's really useful to understand that there are actual reasons why people see the world differently.* ...And that you can't easily say that one is right and tha other is wrong: The liberals are correct when it comes to borders (as in:) - if you thicken them too much and thus diminish the information flow, you risk making the society so static that any radical environmental transformation will sink it (...that's actually the case!). But the conservatives are right in that - you pay a big price for new information under the general risk of exposure to contamination, even contaminating ideas. *Fundamental Truths about Reality / Life* «The environment metaphorically moves back and forth like a snake, and what we are trying to do is stay on the center of it's back! And the only way we can do that is by - having people pull to the right and say "be careful!" and - having people pull to the left and say "well yeah, but be open!". And maybe with that dialog and the exchange of information which that dialog promotes, we can specify the current center of that moving goal and actually stay on the back.» [32:33] *Emergence of Briliance and Truth* We are ultra-social, tribal apes with animistic religions. As individuals we're really kind of stupid creatures, designed to do post hoc reasoning. But if you put us together in the right way with the right checks and systems, the whole can vastly smarter than the components. (which is true of the brain as well.) As individuals, we are really bad at disconfirming our own ideas. Only if you put ideas out there and everyone else is motivated to challenge them, the truth comes out. [34:20] *No Conservatives in the Academics Anymore* In the 60s/70s one of the main reasons to go to grad school in the social sciences is either a) to stay in the school to escape the Vietnam War draft or b) to fight for social justice and against racism The ratio of liberals to conservatives changed because of - self-selection - hostile climate/discrimination put forth against unwanted political opinions [40:19] *Nihilism and the consequence of scientific ideas to religious fundaments of human society* «When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure will fill the gap.» Fundamentalists in the sciences are contributing vastly to the current cultural problem. [52:23] *The Desastrous Consequence of Viewing Speech as Violence* - There used to be a difference between 1) a member of a minority group feeling offended by someone sincerely expressing an idea and 2) this member being viewed as victim of violence and that the situation thus demands immediate protective action by law [57:42] *Traditionally you can put forth any idea you want, if you can back it up with facts.* Due to excessive politicization of the educational agenda, - students learn rhetorical techniques instead, with - the goal of linking their enemies to something contemptable or disgusting and - to provoke a detrimental social outrage targeted against them. [58:05] *The Political Immune System Analogy* Once you're labeled as a racist, it doesn't matter what you actually say, you will now be attacked. Also, once you're labeled that way, if someone defends you, the label is contagious, right? ...Like in a religious witch-hunt. That's why there's so much cowardice on campus, even if the majority thinks that what's going on is nuts. [01:13:11] *Overprotection related Depression and Anxiety* 1) Fewer siblings -> Lack of - unsupervised rough-and-tumble free play - playful fight for position in hierachy - ability to deal with conflict As a consequence more adults - assume there has to always be a supervisor to call when there is any type of conflict - become unable to deal with problems themselves 2) Lack of Fantasy / Identity Play might manifest itself in form of - cultural gender-flexibility issue and gender debates 3) Social Plattforms - the social prevalence of (and early access to) interactive media platforms hugely loads young people, especially girls, with anxiety under the social need for approval and amplifies social relational phenonea like reputation savaging during femal hieracical disputes 4) Rise of Polarization - mob phenomena: minor public deviation from implicit expectations can attract unlooked-for and individually unforeseen social damage of catastrophic, even career-ending magnitude [01:23:23] «Give everyone a place which is safe. And by safe I mean physically safe. _Never_ use the word safety to describe emotions and ideas. Safety means physical safety.» [01:24:36] *Inclusion as a Primary Virtue is a Vice* «There is in-group preference (which to eliminate would be foolish). And to distinguish that from out-group exclusion is not easy at all.» «Any virtue carried to extremes becomes a vice.» - Aristotle [01:28:35] *Optimistic Perspective* «We actually think that by just doing academics, that is: - research, makeing arguments, being calm and civil that we can turn this around.» [01:30:46] *The Corrective Mechanisms* Duty to the Truth - never say things that you think are false - never hesitate to display your scientific opinion under fear for it to get challenged Educate your Students and - do not indoctrinate them or use/(abuse) them as tools for your political agenda *Optimistic Conclusion:* If universities make their statements and goals public, students will thus flood the universities that hold the morally highest principles.

I'm studying social work in Australia and I'm so frustrated by the lack of encouragement to criticize ideas. I had a professor who told me if I did an essay that criticized feminism I would get an instant fail because it's not in consensus with the majority of evidence. I actually really disrespect the discipline at this point it's just tribalism.

Vote this comment up to show, that this isn't only happening in English speaking countries. Greetings from Germany, conservatives are hopelessly outnumbered on universities here

This is Haidt Speech!

Who's watching this in 2020, where it looks like the battle is lost. The media is completely lost now, too.

I feel like I’m sitting at the feet of our modern Socrates and Aristotle while they have a chat and I’m struggling to keep up.

Fantastic conversation. Thank God for people like Jonathan and Jordan Peterson - paragons of sanity in an insane world

Dr. Peterson, can you host Dr. Haidt for another talk soon? I could listen to you two chat for another five hours.

"the higher the prevalence of infectious disease the higher the probability of totalitarian or authoritarian political attitudes" - we need to have discussion about this given the current coronavirus situation 20:12

So, the central message is: "Hey, lighten up, toughen up, smarten up" rather than "here is a soother and a diaper and a nose clamp". A healthy growth process to robustness and competence and confidence in the real world rather than a protection of infantilism, hissy fits and meltdowns... Come up with cogent, coherent, convincing arguments rather than snide slurs, labels and put-downs... "

These production values are seriously good. Roughly speaking.

Dr. Jonathan Haidt is an amazing voice of reason and intelligence.

I so admire the way Dr. Peterson was able to contain himself and let Dr Haidt speak to his areas of expertise. It's almost as if he assumes that the person he's talking to knows something he doesn't. Go figure! It's nice to see Karen Straughan here in the comments section showing similar humility.

I love the way they play off each other. If one of them ever has an incomplete thought, the other chimes in and completes it for him promptly. Makes for an incredibly fluid and educational conversation.

Epiphany: The point at which a person that leaned left for their entire life suddenly realized that a large percentage of his fellow-travelers are raving lunatics are on a path that will tear civilized society apart.

Amazing how the internet has reduced the gap between vanguard academia and public perspective on topical issues.

"Give everyone a place which is safe and by same I mean physically safety, never use the word safety to describe emotions and ideas" - Jonathan Haidt The universities that fail to understand and implement this must perish.

need to hear this same conversation in 2020... like right now!

Haidt doesn't get the credit he deserves in my opinion. Not enough limelight

**sigh** **takes out vacuum cleaner**

The more I hear from Dr. Haidt, the more I want to hear. I read “The Coddling of the American Mind” in 3 days. Couldn’t put it down. This conversation is just brilliant.

Anyone wondering how these 2 brilliant minds can be so humble...? And why is it we are voting for politicians in the 1st place...?

Wow, this is even better than the Peterson-Paglia interview. It's impressive that these guys support their arguments by verbally citing researchers or studies to provide supporting evidence. Real data must be a lot harder to remember than "Hey hey, ho ho..." Dr. Peterson has done a great thing in using his channel to spotlight these conversations.

I was a psych major in undergrad and I'm pretty sure my social psychology professor was subtly trying to redpill his students by introducing us to j haidt, J Peterson, and S pinker. It gives me hope for the future of psychology as a discipline because right now it's highly politicized (left). Anyway. Love these two

These two have changed my fundamental outlook on life. Shedding my "progressive" illiberal left wing orientation

Wow! These brilliant minds. Jonathan literally predicted where the colleges and leftist were headed... religion. Everyone is talking about that now.

I'm glad to see Jordan Peterson seemingly taking to heart the criticism from past videos that he talked way too much in interviews where he was the interviewer. You can actually see and hear the points in the video where he abridged his very open, tangential mind and segued into asking more questions to Jonathan Haidt. He also said in a couple podcasts that he has been on that he knows that is one of his character faults. It's refreshing to know he is actually reading the feedback he is getting on his videos.

Would love to see an interview with Chicago Professor Rachel Brown about the SJW attack on her and Western History!! I think me and the rest of your listeners would love that!

"I'm actually optimistic about whats going to happen on campus" Oh man... coming from 2020 and watching this is depressing lol. Jonathan Haidt in 2015: "Hey guys, if we don't turn this around and soon, the shit that is happening on the college campuses is going to reach the rest of society in about 5 years"

Discovering Peterson was my 'trip to India' His calm and thoughtful methods of thinking have given the right side of politics and thought their space to heard and debated, instead of instant dismissal under the impression that 'I'll probably just diagree' With thanks Extreme Left, for literally deafening me in 1 ear, & thanks to Peterson for unblocking the clog.

I couldn't have asked for a better birthday present. I have about 20 pages left of 'The Righteous Mind'. One of best books I've read hands down.

Do I flag this as porn?

“We have a duty to speak the truth and educate not indoctrinate” Love this, must speak truth as see it 💕

It seems a lot of people have a problem with Haidt identifying fundamentalism as a problem. I think these people have forgotten that fundamentalism as a word existed before it had a negative association with particular groups. Anyone can be a fundamentalist, whether in religion, politics, economics, civics etc. The basic idea with a fundamentalist is they lack complexity and over simplify things to unrealistic "fundamentals." So it is similar to being an ideologue.

These are two great minds and thinkers. I think that Haidt has a better sense of how to translate ideas to the public. Peterson may not be as good at exposition as Haidt, but he speaks more passionately about his ideas and it can make him more listenable.

Haidt keeps Peterson from veering off on his occasional tangents better than anyone I've seen yet lol

I can only hope that these calm, rational, and intelligent voices ultimately prevail.

Jonathan Haidt is really good at breaking down and explaining complex ideas and concepts in very simple terms. He's definitely one of my favorite people to listen to.

Damn Jordan, putting out great content like nobody's business. Keep up the great work! Lots of love from Austria

I graduated from a film program, and a huge percentage of my friends on Facebook are now very left leaning. I frequently post Jordan Peterson/Classical Liberal/Libertarian opinions on Facebook in a totally respectful manner and I never get any pushback over it. Most people just accept far left opinions, but aren't really into arguing over them because they don't actually understand the reasons for the opinions. I just hope that when I post these things, that they'll plant a seed in people's brains of a differing opinion, backed with reasons, and eventually it'll change people's minds, because I try my hardest to post my opinions in a non-confrontational way. The best way to have someone reject your opinion is if you make it confrontational. As soon as it becomes an argument and not a conversation, people need to win, not learn.

"What's happening on the campuses will be moving into society in five years." ......3 years later.

This talk makes so much sense living here in India too. I'm a centrist leaning right. I remember we had these CAA/NRC protests (you can search up on Google to know what they were to realise what they really mean). I posted my unbiased opinion on my Instagram and was attacked by my so called friends at college. They didn't want to debate. They just labelled me Islamophobic and that was it. It's not just an Anglo thing now. This is happening all over the world. I'm so happy that I got to see this interview. It made me more strong. Thank you Dr. Peterson and Dr. Haidt. I have more solid arguments the next time someone comes at me with "slurs". Definitely checking out Heterodoxy academy.

Haight's mic is sidechaining hard enough to be the dubstep anthem of 2014.

That opening is class

Looking back on this now in 2022 (4yrs later), Haidt's optimism with college campuses is grossly misplaced. It blows me away that a profession of this caliber could ever conceive the notion that college campuses begin to self-correct without any major blow to the institution or the ideology that promotes the madness on campuses.

It is always fascinating to watch two wise people in a conversation/ discussion of any kind, which is a relatively rare spectacle nowadays.

Wow. This is a brilliant conversation, mind-blowingly honest and detached, while obviously passionately pursuing a just truth. Feels good to have these minds working on our behalf.

I have changed so much in the last year. Largely due to the reading Peterson has suggested and productions like this.

There’s some kind of compression, especially on Jon Haidt’s mic that causes him to be nearly inaudible when he speaks more softly in this interview. Please re-release this with the compression (or other audio problem) fixed.

What a pleasure to hear Dr. Peterson talking to someone at his level. It’s so rare that anyone comes close. That made this video a true joy to listen to despite the gravity of the topic. I feel slightly more optimistic hearing some of Dr. Haitd’s ideas for solutions and also that there are some initiatives already underway with results that are looking positive thus far. I’m late in viewing this. At the time of this writing, this video is over a year old, so I’m going to take a look to see if there’s an update. If there isn’t, I’d like to suggest this exercise be repeated at least once a year to give us an update on how both feel things are going in the universities. I’d be very interested to hear thoughts on how things appear to be trending.

THANK YOU Dr. Peterson for posting this. I am a social worker in Central Oregon and I am VERY concerned about the future of my alma mater. I provide field instruction for students interning at sites that do not have social workers on staff. In the past few years, I have had more and more students telling me that they have been intimidated and no longer express their ideas freely. Last year, I had a student who reported that a student on campus referred to all white women as being untrustworthy, and used the pejorative term of all pejorative terms, and the instructor said nothing. This was a violation of the student handbook and frankly a violation of the social work code of ethics with respect to collegiality. I found myself so fearful of confronting this for fear of being shunned. What has helped me in the past year is the discovery of your work. Interestingly enough, it felt like blasphemy to be learning about you and many other people who have been banned from speaking on campuses. It turns out this is the healthiest thing I could have done. I just signed on for an advisory board and will turn from this video to the resources you and Dr. Haidt have referred to here. Again, thank you so very much!

Finally, being an Intellectual is becoming "cool" again! There is hope!

Joy and happiness! Two of the West's premier intellects engaged in civilized discourse, listening to each other, exploring ideas. So rare today. Than you gentleman for a stimulating, satisfying hour.

Such an important discussion, can't believe I'm only seeing it now, and it wasn't even in my recommened, I just stumbled upon it in a playlist! I've liked, shared (to my own email lol) and commented on this video just to have it hopefully be recommended to others.

Goddamn. I haven't heard so much sense in all my 49 yrs. Mind blown!

This conversation is so damn important

It was great to watch these two intellectual giants having a valuable (and unscripted) conversation.

Reading Coddling of the American Mind now and thoroughly enjoying it.

As a man finishing up his master's in education, I can assure you Petersen is absolutely correct. I can't tell you the number of times we've been extorted to be "change agents," and we all know what kind of "change" they are want to impose. I have been in two classes where White women burst out into tears when coming to terms with the same of their 'Whiteness." I can only imagine what they will be teaching White students, particularly boys, when they get out in the classroom. However, one of the things I find interesting that when I have confronted a professor about this directly, he will backpedal. For example, I would often ask what sort of "penance" I need to do as a White Man, he would respond that White or male privilege is not like that and quickly change the subject. I think at some level they recognize the religious nature of what they are teaching and feel ashamed of it.

Jonathan Haidt outshines any intellectual I've read or listened to in the past 20 years.

This is the only person I've ever seen Jordan Peterson talk to that is just as smart and eloquent as him.

Thank you so much gentlemen! This was wildly fascinating. I’ll be using some of this in a paper I’m writing about free speech. I’ll also be buying your books and continue to follow you both. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I thought Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Hitchens were the epitome of truth... I was a lot younger back then.

volume on max, listening acutely but wishing it were mastered higher

Phenomenal discussion. The fact that we get to see this on RU-vid, on our laptops/phones is special.

DR. Jonathan, thank you for continuing to speak. OMFW we wish Professor Peterson a speedy recovery. He is in my prayers. It is as if i remember these golden days when the two of you were having these big conversations, and all of a sudden a very chaotic world started to make more sense. I want you to have these conversations again.

*I stopped cleaning my room to watch this.*

Dr. Peterson, please consider speaking with Douglas Murray.

2022. More valid and truer than ever. I wish if I shared this on social media, all of my friends would watch.

Lots of respect from Ukraine! You two are hope for all mankind and humanity!

Help buckos I already cleaned my room 14 times today.... I may have a problem roughly speaking.

Last year I started to like you Jordan P but since your talk with Ms Ali, Camille Paglia and now Haidt I adore you.... much love from brazil 😘😍😘

The way these two get to the heart of issues is incredible

Amazing conversation. Thank you and don't stop.

What an important conversation. Damn. This is probably the first person I've seen offer some healthy rational resistance to Peterson. We need more people that can bounce good data and ideas off each other. Keep strong and thanks for walking us all through this epic journey.

Haidt was my Morpheus.

This conversation is amazing; such things motivate me to work on new content. Thank you J&J.

So many sentences of wisdom throughout this video I found myself jumping back, contemplating what was just said, and playing back again. I'm better for it. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your brilliance!

I’ve been waiting for this one! Thank you so much Dr!

I have never been more excited for a RU-vid video in my life.

This was soooooo satisfying to view and take in. Thank you both

This conversation brought tears to my eyes.

Great video production but you need an audio engineer to mix your audio. The dialogue is not compressed, de-essed, & loud enough.

A hypothesis: Maybe the connection between disgust and willpower has something to do with the willingness to confront and/or kill the thing which disgusts you. You can be disgusted by something and also fear it, a spider or snake for instance, and it takes willpower to overcome the fear in order to carry out the necessary reaction to the disgust. One might thereby elevate the value of willpower if his disgust is of great import to him.

This world needs more JP’s I believe if we all adopt a few of his teachings and pass them on we can achieve that goal. Happy New Year to all.

Thanks for another interesting conversation. Hope you get well, and continue the important work.

Well, my room isn't going to clean itself.

It comes to me that Prime Minister Peterson and President Haidt are fantastic ideas.

Ten more hours of this, please!

OMG. I'm so late to this party. I have known and followed Dr. Peterson for a while now but I found out about Dr. Haidt only after he came on Bill Maher. Hated the part where Bill kept interrupting Dr. Haidt. Then I watched NYU School of Law's The Forum with Dr. Haidt, just finished reading Coddling of The American Mind (the book) two days back, and here I am, discovering the two legends sharing ideas and wisdom. Wish this video never ended.

Two of my favorite scholars-right-of-center Jordan B. Peterson, left-of-center Jonathan D. Haidt-having a discussion that all academics should be having (or at least listening in on). These two rank as high for me as Steven Pinker and Robert Wright. (Funny, I just now realized that all four are psychologists, psychologists that take evolutionary biology quite seriously.) Reading/listening to Peterson-in conjunction with Wright (The Evolution of God, Why Buddhism is True)-transformed my atheism into agnosticism; and reading/listening to Haidt-in conjunction with Pinker (The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined)-transformed my leftism into liberalism. Peterson's one of the wisest human beings that I've read/listened to, and Haidt's one of the most thoughtful human beings that I've read/listened to, so to hear these two talking-together-was quite a treat for me.

This was probably the 90 minutes I watched most worth my time in the last year or so.

Very interesting and enjoyable discussion to listen to. Thank you both!

Time for a catch up/update interview with Dr. Haidt. Great discussion!