I imagine you were thinking of Orthodoxy by G K Chesterton rather than Mere Christianity, which was, of course, written by C S Lewis. Thanks for your discussion of this important and fascinating subject.
As a British Catholic (convert from CofE, 34 years ago) the Ordinariate in the UK is struggling. I have an anonymous UK Ordinariate priest friend and he tells me that in this country at least, those in charge of it are so ambitious to get on in the Church & demonstrate their loyalty to the present ‘incumbent’ in Rome that they ostentatiously use the NO Roman Breviary and only allow concelebration at their Masses which they make adjustments to, to make it conform more to the NO. It’s sad that the powers here have ditched the Ordinariate (Commonwealth) breviary as, as an English Catholic I think it is a superb work and probably the Ordinariate’s greatest achievement. He tells me that the Ordinariate is much more successful in the US than it is in the UK. I love your channel by the way. I think it’s one of the best ones on RU-vid, so please keep up the good work, you are appreciated.
Your news regarding the English Ordinariate is distressing. I heard it said that the Ordinariate's virtue was that it could make the Catholic Church more Catholic. If the prelates could but recognize the treasures that they waste...
It is so interesting because there was if I'm not mistaken some fears or perhaps hesitations that Rome would want them to do away with their unique English patrimony. But Rome in its charity said no keep your unique English patrimony and bring it back into the Catholic Church where it belongs. And now going by what you say, they are not taking full advantage of that and actually conforming more to your basic novus ordo breviary for example. Interestingly enough, I go to a regular diocesan parish, and I have chosen to pray the ordinariate breviary As I find it uses beautiful elevated language.
I know the Novus Ordo was engineered with the intention of reconciling the Anglicans and Lutherans into our communion. Though that fell through hard, I would be far happier with the Ordinariate as the rubric for the New Mass than the NO, because it seems to retain a lot of the important prayers in the Roman Rite (the "Judica Me", Last Gospel, Roman Canon), while genuinely appealing to the good found in the Anglicanism. I believe the TLM is the best rite for the West, but this may be a compromise that many more bishops and priests can stomach for the time being. Call it a "gateway drug" to tradition.
I think the Tridentine Mass is definitely the most authentic to the Roman Rite given it was designed to take the best of all the pre Trent liturgies throughout Europe. I do however understand the desire for Vernacular especially for those in the Slavic and German sections of the western world.
I go an Ordinariate church. It is small but thriving and growing. I was told ordinariate churches can't "complete" with regular Roman Catholic churches within the same cities, thus they are fewer and far between. I love how reverent the mass is. I was baptized Roman Catholic, I was never an Anglican, but I'm not at all a fan of the NO churches in my town and I wanted a more traditional mass.
Wish there was a ordinariate parish near me but our parish is a very reverent English novus ordo. We have a beautiful high altar tabernacle. And we’re very thankful. I think The closest ordinariate is 5 hours away lol
The missal allows the repsonsporial psalm to be treated different. The response becomes an Antiphon and the psalm is chanted by the people. I heard people online say the cathedral does it like that with Anglican chant
How does someone contact you? I think it would be cool to get you on the Avoiding Babylon podcast sometime and discuss the importance of good quality Catholic Prayer Books / Bibles etc. I have their contact info, but I have no way to put you in contact with them…
The personal ordinariate Mass is aesthetically superior to the novus ordo. Hands down! The language is much more dignified and the use of the RSV CE for the scriptural text is night and day
The Ordinariate is a mess. "Patrimony" is a very vague concept, and parish experiences vary pretty widely. I've visited 5 different Ordinariate parishes, have friends in several others I haven't been to, and have been a parishioner in three different ones from fairly early on in the Ordinariate's existence. It's a hodgepodge of former Episcopalians and Anglicans (obviously, the original target constituency, and in my experience the healthiest and most normal element in many ways), but also a bunch of regular Catholics, some charismatic types, and many self-identified "Trads" too. Some parishes feel like a dollar-store Trad Lite imitation, and it's not a good look or feel for the Ordinariate. Some parishes have banned communion under both species to "be more Roman" (when the whole purpose behind its own jurisdiction is precisely an ability to bring forward its unique traditions). I've heard too many "thank God we're not like those Protestants over there anymore" homilies, which, OK I get it, but why not bring forward the Anglican distinctive of fine Scriptural preaching? It didn't help that Houston completely bungled the Daily Office release, with no pre-production transparency whatsoever, followed by several messed-up editions with 300+ typos, errors and omissions. It just sends a message that for all the smoke they puff in marketing videos and stuff, they don't really care all that much. One could go on. My sense is that the Ordinariate doesn't have long-term staying power. I am pretty sure there are fewer communities today than 9 years ago when I first got involved.
Two things that have mitigated the full potential of the Anglican Ordinariate: 1. AO parishes are few and limited in number. We have one here is AZ in Payson (1.75 hours northeast of Phoenix). Most cities do not have them. 2. A logical conclusion of the aforementioned factor, few know what it is. I think as time goes on and people looks for more reverent and classical forms of worship the AO will begin to rise in its exposure and fame.
Could you do a video on the Catholic book Enchiridion of Indulgences, published in 2022? Very few Catholic laity own this book on current Catholic indulgences. Thanks !
The modern liturgical lectionary is so bad. The three year cycle prohibits familiaritywith the readings. The post-conciliar wreckovators should have preserved the 1962 lectionary and embellished it with an optional daily cycle. EVERYONE I know always asks at Mass...."What year are we in? A, B, or C?" It's not natural nor consistent with Tradition. It was clearly written and compiled by a committee of biblical scholars. Scripture reading was not traditionally read during the Mass but breviary. They basically tried to appeal to Protestants and adapt their scripture study into the Mass. I will be frank, apart from Liturgy needs, few Catholics arw more familiar with the Bible than before the Council. My father can recall four Sundays of the traditional calendar off the top of his head to this day from when he served as a child. Those readings always struck him and he remembers the Sundays they fell on. No one, not even most priests can do that with the modern lectionary
When I was Catholic, I followed the developments of the the Anglican Use with great interest. Mostly because I’m only a half hour away from the Congregation of St Athanasius in Boston, which was one of the first Anglican Use Catholic Churches in the US going back to the the 1980s. I remember the that some of the heavy criticisms of the Anglican use (specifically the book of divine worship.) was that it was a halfway house between the Novus ordo (since it borrowed heavily from the 1979 BCP rite II/ the Novus Ordo) along with inserts from the Tridentine missal that made the liturgy kind of not authentic to Anglican liturgical praxis. When those first churches were becoming Roman Catholic there was a lot of grumbling online by both Anglicans and Anglican converts to Catholicism. Specifically over the issues on the liturgy not being authentically Anglican. Many argued for a straight adaptation of the BCP along the lines of what the Western Rite of the Orthodox Church ended up doing in crafting the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, ie, make some edits where you need to make edits. From what I read lot of those converts ended up just keeping their 1928’s for private home use and argued for a ordinariate liturgy based upon the 1928 because that more online with Anglican heritage going back to the old Sarum liturgy. When the Divine Worship came out, you had people arguing against both the rite 1 and rite 2 prayers because rite 1 had things like prayers at the foot of the altar and the last gospel, something generally it done in Anglicanism while rite ii felt like a Catholicized 1979 BCP, a book that’s still controversial within the Anglican community to this day.
There are plenty of people in the Ordinariate who I have seen online do just that. Praise or criticize the TLM aspects. There are a good chunk of Anglicans who use the English Missal. The 1928 with extra bits (extra bits being the TLM)
Ordinariate Mass seems like such a beautiful thing to experience. In my opinion, it presents a much more preferable order than the Novus Ordo. I think the ideal Roman missal would retain most TLM prayers while incorporating things like the Old Testament readings, Responsorial Psalm, and Universal Prayer as found in N.O., similarly to the Ordinariate Mass.
I heard online that communion in the ordinatirate can be Intinction, host only or even host then chalice in the Anglican way, kneeling with the communicate hand guiding the base of the chalice and a priest or deacon holding it to the lips. Sadly my bishop banned Intinction
Would you do a review of the Ordinariate Sunday Missal, published by CTS, please? I think the supply is limited at the moment, sadly. Of all the PO texts, surely it is the most important.
My take as an Anglican: Many Anglicans would rather ride out the storm or create their breakaway groups A few former Ordinariates I've come across say it feels a bit LARPish with just the Anglican ritual without the beliefs. The Ordinariate didn't take off in my area with only a single parish. The "Continuing Anglican" movement also was a flop in my area as my Bishop managed to ride out the storm as did many faithful TLDR: Many Anglicans chose to remain and ride out the storm
@@ConvincedCatholicism It's more nuanced when it comes to LGBT. The policy of The Episcopal Church is it allows for freedom of conscience with clergy. There's quite a few parishes in my Diocese that aren't affirming and even a few Dioceses aren't
The question of Anglican Patrimony is ambiguous. I wish the Ordinariate well but the attempt to recover the Prayer Book tradition, at least for the Divine Office, is at odds with the longstanding practice of many Ordinariate clergy, at least in the UK. As Anglicans many, or even most, used the modern Roman Divine Office, perhaps using Prayer Book Evensong on Sundays. I wonder how they've adapted to the Prayer Book offices now that they're Catholics. Not all are happy.
I’m former Anglican, and wife of a Pastoral Provision Priest. We had no congregation to bring with us. The people wanted to remain Anglican. Whether it was need for annulment for former Catholics, or any other reason, they didn’t come with my Priest. Fewer and fewer Anglican/Episcopal Priests are ‘free of encumbrances’ meaning no female or radical Episcopal bishop in their pedigree and therefore wouldn’t get through the Ordinariate process. I personally love the Ordinariate Mass. And miss the music so much. But my Priest is able (for now) to say the traditional Latin Mass. With beautiful Schola. God is good. Ultimately, no Priest, no Ordinariate. It makes me sad.
But there is a seminary forming new (celibate) priests for the Ordinariate. It’s also encouraging to watch the young men work their way through the minor orders.
Why is it not more popular? In my impression, the people although welcoming, tend to market it to former Protestants to the exclusion of cradle Catholics.
Having been Anglican before becoming Roman Catholic and living in Houston for 30 years, I find your lack of knowledge about the Ordinariate great. This Mass was adapted from the Episcopalian Rites that go back hundreds of years. The adaption was facilitated by a Catholic Bishop from Australia and the current Bishop Steven Lopes who was a Catholic Priest in the Dicastry of worship at the time. Please learn more before proclaiming a knowledge you do not have. I have attended many services at the CATHEDRAL in Houston and know Bishop Lopes. I have served Masses with him that he often attends at the CoCathedral of the Archdiocese of Galveston Houston.
Can you please provide what pieces of information I am wrong about or what I am missing? Texas is a major hub of Continuing Anglicanism so the area you live is different from the rest of the United States.
Thank you for this illuminating presentation of the Ordinariate mass. It astonishes me that it is not more widely known and celebrated. As you point out, it combines elements of pre Vatican 2 liturgy together with valuable Anglican and Orthodox elements. You didn't mention the ad orientem form of celebration of the Ordinariate mass, another important feature. Altogether, it seems that this form of liturgy would have been the ideal successor of and natural development from the liturgical reforms advocated by the Second Vatican Council. It would also have prevented the often insensitive, let alone needless, re-orderings of many fine sanctuaries.
@@ConvincedCatholicism As a Lutheran pastor, from my inquiries I do not believe this to be the case. If I am wrong and someone could verify that for me either way, it would be greatly appreciated. Big if true
Protestantism is a heresy. Anglicanism is Protestant. Insofar as the Anglican use Liturgy differs from the Latin Rite in use during the epoch that saw the advent of Anglicanism, it's informed by a heretical movement.
Also, don't straw man my argument. I answered the question posed by your video in as precise a way as my limited intellect allows. I never said anything like what you accused me of above. The Novus Ordo is informed by heresies too; namely Modernism and Ecumenism. They're both valid, licit liturgies and folks are welcome to like or even prefer them. You asked why the Anglican use isn't more popular. I have provided my reasoning: Catholics aren't big fans of Protestant revolutionaries.
@@jefffalls I just don’t understand how a liturgy can be valid and licit and simultaneously informed by heresy. Calling my question an attempt to strawman your argument is avoidant
@@ConvincedCatholicism because The Church has authority over the Liturgy. She can baptize most anything. I'm offering an explanation as to why more people don't like it, which I took as the thrust of the video.
Where I live the pre ordonariate community died out. It will probably be a few more years til I can go to a parish but I love its divine office. The DW:do:ce is the best approved form of the office available today. I am saving up to get the AOB2E because the DW:DO:NAE is ok but meant for Sunday parish use
