The Pilots had NO Idea! The Super-Strange Story of Air France flight 011 

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ZERO communication in that cockpit. They were both flying their own planes with a gremlin messing with the controls in the other seat.

This is one of the best example of this quote, made by NASA astronauts : There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse.

Thanks for breaking this down. I was on this flight! Had to hold my breath & tell myself that this wasn’t my time to go, which got more difficult as the passenger behind me got hysterical! Worse was the thick cloud cover through which you could feel the speed & left-right, up-down motions. Was a relief to climb back up again as it was obvious that the pilots were not in control earlier

One question that stood out to me watching this video was: Did the pilots ever know that the Boeing 777 would NOT call out "dual inputs" like an Airbus would? It's worth considering that they both operated on the assumption that they would hear a warning if they were fighting each other's control inputs. Communication breakdown was the key factor here. The Captain should have announced to the FO if he was in fact taking control of the plane. "Assisting" silently was exactly what made the FO continue over-controlling the plane.

Shocking how 2 people working close together can be far apart mentally.

When I was in the U.S. Navy, on my first takeoff something similar happened. In the T-34C Mentor, the pilots sit one behind the other, unable to see each other's controls. The standard procedure for all pilots was to NEVER have both pilots attempting to control the plane at the same time, in order to prevent this same type of confusion. When control was to be taken or given, "You have the controls" and "I have the controls" was required of BOTH pilots. Another important rule was to never ascend above 600 feet on takeoff until well clear of the pattern, as the pattern altitude was 1,200 feet at North Whiting NAS. This would maintain adequate separation between arriving and departing aircraft. My instructor was particularly adamant about not breaking that rule. As we lifted off, my instructor reminded me NOT to climb above 600'. But my controls felt heavy, as if the plane wanted to nose down and descend. So I was pulling back on the stick and trimming up. The more I pulled back on the stick and trimmed, the louder my instructor warned me NOT to exceed 600 feet. The downward force was getting pretty severe, so I kept pulling back and trimming up. Eventually we cleared the pattern, and my instructor shouted a swear word and I felt the controls suddenly JERK BACK, giving me the impression that he had taken the controls from me. So I let go of the stick and put my hands in the air so he could see them, and said, "You have the controls!" It turns out that he had been PUSHING on the stick the entire time, while I was pulling back and trimming UP! When he finally stopped pushing, all of that trim I had put in caused the stick to fly back, feeling like my instructor had grabbed the stick and jerked it back! So for a few seconds we were a ROCKET headed into space! LOL! Neither one of us was flying the plane! LOL! I still got an okay grade on the flight - I think because my instructor wouldn't want anyone to know he had been pushing the controls while I was flying the plane. I probably shouldn't have told that story on him during my tie-cutting ceremony, but I did anyway. ;)

Not wanting to cast aspersions on Air France, but to me this sounds strangely similar to AF447 - first officer, blind to his own mistake, making weird inputs and the captain making different inputs to counteract "the misbehaving aircraft", insufficient communication between the two about what they're doing, unknowingly fighting themselves and a perfectly flyable aircraft into a bad situation accompanied by spurious alarms and other unexpected aircraft feedback. It certainly shows a counterpoint to people claiming AF447 was solely the fault of Airbus' control design.

I’m a current Boeing 777 pilot. The long 2-crew sectors are demanding. I personally find JFK very challenging. It is in very busy airspace and the ATC quality isn’t always fantastic. Taking controlled rest on the flight deck of a 777 does mitigate fatigue to some degree, but the seats don’t fully recline(and it’s uncomfortable sleeping sitting up) and the ACARS system frequently chimes, especially over non-oceanic airspace. It is absolutely better than nothing, but you still need to be fit to be able to manage, and you will be tired there is no doubt. Did this impact the First Officer? Something is surely going on in his head, because a go-around above flare altitude is normally mini-briefed. I agree with your discrete guarding of the controls as an LTC. I have always done this, to create a ‘limit’ should it be necessary. But I would not normally expect that to be the case line flying. I have flown the 777 throughout the 5G issue and never actually had an issue. The shear unnecessary panic has shades of AF447 and as a professional pilot is deeply worrying. Really excellent documentary and thought provoking. Thank you

61 year old glider pilot and instructor, career ending because of cancer. I love these videos for what they teach us and also keeping me connected to flying. THANK YOU !

777 Captain here, would just like to say “Thank you”. It’s always good to watch your videos and helps refresh system knowledge particularly on the 777. Your videos provide such an in depth analysis and offer great take away points to incorporate on the line. Fantastic work. All the best!

The captain went from "finger on the controls to moderate anything wild" to "hauling on the controls like a gorilla and ignoring his job" real fast there.

I think this is the first ever yt channel that actually uses captions correctly. Moving them to the top when information is displayed at the bottom, love it. Well done!

I think the most amazing thing for me personally is that I watch your videos and you'll mention something ... like that the landing gear are still down... and I'll just immediately say to myself "that'll produce drag". I'm not a pilot, not even thinking of ever taking a flying lesson... just someone who has flown here and there...not even a well seasoned passenger. That's how much can be learned from your videos. Thank you!

I'm a hobby pilot and now understand the significance of my coach saying "I have controls"!! Excellent nerdy aviation video!

These videos are not only for aviation fans but also great lessons for crisis management under stressful conditions for everyday life. Thanks a lot for sharing!

I am glad that this breakdown in communication was corrected in time and they landed safely.

I have a merch Idea: A tee-shirt with the phrase Petter always says in his videos: "Remember that. It will become important later." 😂

It always surprises me on how quickly things can go from being really good to really bad. It's just a matter of seconds . That's so strange.

Thank you Peter, an excellent presentation as always! As a 28 year professional pilot, I really like that you cover “incident” flights as well as accidents. The information gained from the incident reports truly helps bring awareness to the traps that can occur on a standard flight. There is no substitute for knowledge and good CRM-CLR etc. Keep up the excellent work!

Isn't it normal procedure for the pilots to verbally confirm which pilot has the controls/aircraft?

I have worked as a paramedic for over two decades. When I am training new medics, I tell them we treat the patient, not the monitor. While that cardiac monitor is a huge help in diagnosis and ongoing care. If it is telling me something that doesn't correlate with my patients condition, I need to question its accuracy. Always treat the patient, not the monitor.

Thanks! I’m a military pilot that recently finished flight training. Watching your videos has definitely made me a better aviator.

I used to work in a mobile phone shop in the early 2000's... We had some guys who worked in the local military control tower, who had major issues if they had a certain network and their phone went anywhere near the control tower... All the screens would go weird and fill with "snow" and/or "give false targets"... They had to leave their mobile phones outside the tower perimeter. This was on the old 2g One-2-One(now t-moblie) and Orange(now ee) 1800Mhz in the UK... The 2g 900Mhz (vodafone and O2) was fine. They never did figure out exactly why it happened, but their equipment changed a few years later - so no longer an issue, and in any case the 900 and 1800Mhz isn't used for mobiles any more.

I was surprised that it took the Captain so long to call control of the aircraft. I was expecting him to do it when he began overtly and forcefully exerting control, even before the loss of synchronization.

It's always a massive relief when I hear you say, "at time xx:xx, Flight ABC123 landed safely..." 😥

Re: FORDEC and PIOSEE Being a pilot under stress in an airplane reminds me being a pharmacist under stress in a pharmacy.dealing with problems. Even though pharmacists keep their feet on the ground,, the stress is continuous and overwhelming at times, FORDEC or PIOSEE can bring us back to the reality of the situation. Thank you, Mentour Pilot.

Hi, it's Bea here. I'm a fan of yours from Brazil! Thank you so much for all the contents you provide us with! May I come up with a suggestion? On October 31st 1996 there was a horrible accident here in São Paulo with a Fokker-100 operated by TAM airlines, which flew for less than 1 minute and fell on cars, houses and people... I'd love to listen about it from you! Thanks again and have a nice week ahead!

"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is the rule. Except within the cockpit, Communicate is a prerequisite to Aviate (i.e., who has the controls?). Good on the captain for finally verbalizing and commanding that he has the controls -- that fixed everything. BTW, nerdy is good! Thanks.

Great example of why you always re-establish who has the flight controls when you get into an emergency situation. I am an airline pilot and a military helicopter pilot. Had a similar scenario under NVGs in the helicopter. Had an inexperienced co-pilot complain about the flight controls, I said “Let me see” instead of “I have the flight controls”. We both ended up fighting on the controls for about 15 seconds, I declared an emergency and as we were about to touch down I glanced over at my co-pilot and realized we were fighting each other. Keep up the good content brother!

I hope you're doing well Petter. All of us out here, your fans, friends and family, wish you nothing but the best

I'm not a pilot but the more I watch these videos, the more I find myself learning from the situations to apply to other situations and decisions in life. I find myself asking how a good pilot would psychologically deal with a situation for the greatest possibility of an acceptable outcome.

No better timing to watch this than right before flying Air France into CDG lol Appreciate the content!

Deference, particularly when two experienced professionals are working together for the first time, can be a dangerous thing. It was never a problem for my Chipmunk instructor many decades ago to say ‘I have control’ and as a novice I’d give it up instantly. Now I’m a surgeon, it’s much trickier to seemingly trample on a colleague’s skills and autonomy by declaring ‘stop please, I’m taking over’. But in the interests of safety that instinctive reluctance must be fought. It is fundamental that organisational culture fosters the permissions to be able to intervene assertively like this with no hard feelings on either side as well as the leadership to actually intervene when needed. I love how these videos often talk about the authority gradient. Too right!

I am not a pilot or even have any basic knowledge of flying an airplane, but I really watch your videos, they are so interesting and full of professional tactical aereo planning! Thank you so much for your work❤

Standard Operating Procedures went right out the window at the simplest upset!

A great example of how we can get spooked by the ghosts in our heads, and convince ourselves that something catastrophic is happening when it's literally nothing. Follow the decision-making model, which has you first identifying the problem and gathering information about it, before acting. In this case, doing this would have shown that there actually was no problem to solve.

It's the nerdy details that I love! They make sense of the situation and fill in the gaps of the story. 'dumbed down' documentaries are frustrating... thanks for taking time to cover the technical issues 😀

As a management consultant working at high levels in major organisations, I have always used the 'I have control - You have control' methodology to install in people the real need for them and their staff to know who exactly is in control and what exactly they are doing as well as making sure that 'someone else' is not tinkering around the edges of the organisation. If only I knew how often it does not work as it should on the flight deck, then perhaps I would not claim it was an iron-clad and fool-proof way of avoiding management mishaps. Nice video showing just how easy it is to forget who is in charge of what.

This was like watching the 2009 Airfrance incident all over again. Your videos have probably prevented a few situations, everyone can learn to be better.

As an engineering professor on embedded systems, I love the nerdy part of your videos. Some solutions can be suggested for many of the problems reported in the incident reports, but these are situations that just were not imagined when the airlines were designed. And that's why it is so important to investigate these incidents thoroughly, even the ones without serious consequences.

It seems like the investigation report ignored the real issue - that there was a complete breakdown of command and control.

I'm a relative newcomer to your channel and felt compelled to comment here thanks to you and your team's fantastic content. Each incident is treated with such respect for the crews, passengers and aircraft that I leave feeling educated and uplifted. I've seen plenty of content that sensationalises and apportions blame whereas you keep it factual and unbiased. Keep up the amazing work and can't wait for the next release!

I'm the son of a former B-17 and C-47 Radio Operator in WWII. He then went on to private pilot qualification and worked as for the FAA as an Air Traffic Controller for a 25+ career. Plus my brother held several private pilot certifications and worked a about five years for Boeing in Seattle. So I have greatly enjoyed the dozens of your RU-vid presentations. I continue to enjoy your programs and think about my dad who passed away about ten years ago at 91 years of age. He was stationed in England and did 30 missions in the B-17 and also stationed in India flying the hump.

If just the Captain announced : I have control, all this chaos would not happen from the beginning.

It s not only the accuracy and the depth of your research , it s the way you tell things: the enthusiasm, the tone, the suspense,… You’re an amazing story teller, as a non aviation nerd i find everything clear and very interesting . And as a non native non fluent english speaker , i don’t even set the subtitles to understand your videos. You must be great at telling bedtime stories to your children . Keep up the quality work 👍

Have been following you for so very long... Your content is something which puts us viewers actually in those situations and we get an actual feel of what the situation might have been... Keep it up

Excellent video. The right mix of narrative and analysis. The aero industry is second to in problem solving, employing a holistic, no blame approach in the pursuit of real world solutions. I love the problem solving acronyms - invaluable in all walks of life. Love the channel. Thank you for your hard work in putting the videos together Mentour!

My biggest takeaway from my first flying lesson more than 30 years ago was vocalising ‘I’ve got control’ when the training pilot noticed me doing something stupid.

As an aerospace designer, I really appreciate the details you go into in your videos !

Hello there, I know that I don't comment on your videos that often, but I do watch pretty much all of them, and I always click the like button, and I just absolutely love the way you go into detail on everything, and you make it all very understandable, and I have my three favourite aviation channels, which is yours, Disaster Breakdown, and the Blancolirio channel, I can never get bored of watching any of your videos, so I want to thank you Mr Mentor Pilot for all your good work... Keep them coming, from Deano in Liverpool UK... 🔥

Petter, you are the best aviation channel by far. I have subscribed and support all your work. I recommend to all my friends. Since I am a lowly private pilot, I learn a lot about you professional pilots and really admire what you do. Keep up the good work, and God bless. Jack

I believe that this is how many relationships getting damaged too. One person introduce an issue, second reacts abruptly, they both are starting to fight with each other, thinking that they are helping. Communication, people.

Part of what I love about this channel is getting to hear about aviation incidents that weren't necessarily disasters but are just as interesting. You won't find video like this on Mayday Air Investigation lol

Another absolutely great video! I really love the fact that you cover such incidents that most people are not even aware of, but which COULD have ended up so much worse. And the "nerdy" details are what separates your channel from most others - which is very cool for people who have more understanding of flying than an average passenger.

Amazing video Petter! As an aspiring forensic mechanical engineer, I appreciate your attention to detail on the technical areas of the incident. The technical details were presented clearly and concisely in an approachable, easy to understand manner. While maintaining the integrity of the concept. This video is one that I will share with my team to hopefully allow them to learn from it as much as I did.

Wow, I know you said it's going to be nerdy, but i didn’t think it was going to be THIS nerdy... That aside, after stumbling across this channel some time ago I've been admiring your videos, as in an ocean of misinformation and cheap opinions, there stand people like you, educating us with your extremely detailed explanations on clearly something you have a passion on. 100% facts no drama. Keep it up, Peter!

I am quite a fresh captain on B737. There is a lot of to learn from you videos. Thank you for that. I do not understand why they did not communicate to each other. If my FO tells me the controls feel weird I want to know in what way. I want to ask questions why is he turning. I can see the yoke displacement. I can tell him to turn right in this scenario. On the other hand I expect my FO to ask the same questions if I am in controls and deviating. Communication in the cockpit are crucial for the safe operations.

I really like the control handover protocol I’ve observed in pilots eye video where the handing off pilot says “you have control” and the takeup pilot vocalises “I have control”, thereby eliminating uncertainty and putting the information on the CVR. There are mainly physical work situations where it is vital that just one person is calling the procedure. Situations where moving heavy loads on inclines are involved for instance. I like to play the game with the procedure for fun (and practice) when leaving someone else to continue a process. This comes into play with complex machinery, and I could bore you by relating a storey about a ship change that went wrong and cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

This has to be one of the best explanatory videos you've done, Petter! Thank you for another great one.

How difficult can it be for Boeing to include a verbal and visual "Dual Control Input" warning into its systems. If a control column gets stuck you'll be expecting such a warning, in other cases it will provide pilots with missing information.

I remember very well the strange Radio Communication from this Flight which VASAviation published on his Channel and how Blancolirio = Juan Browne, himself a 777-Pilot, pointed out how important clear communication in the Cockpit is - and how important the Callout: "My Controls!" This was a really embarrassing Incident for Air France in a whole, not only for the two involved Pilots. Thank you very much for picking this Incident up!🙂👍

Once again, a very well produced video! I started to zone out on the technical descriptions but it all made sense as you described what was happening. Well done!

It seems Air France pilots have issues with coordination, the dual inputs in this video brought back memories of Air France pilots Bonin and Robert on flight 447

I'm so glad to see more incidents that didnt end up with loss of life. Its impotant to know we can learn from from more than just accidents that leads to death. Thank Petter

The magic words "I have control" that bring order in a situation

I wanted to watch this video yesterday, but I fell asleep dead tired. Today I watched it, and it's so close to home to what happened today at work. Not exactly the 5G but involving MS Access, Customs brokerage, persistent but faulty info and diluted responsibilities. And I keep loving your Aviation lessons Petter, Tack!

Just discovered your channel, and have been watching non-stop! 30 years ago all I did was fly my Cessna 150 all over the US (Richard Bach style)--with my touring bike. I learned to fly gliders first, though, and that intuitive flying sense definitely got me out of a bad jam with a density altitude issue and a botched takeoff. Wonder what percentage of commercial pilots have an intuitive sense of attitude, speed and such beyond what the controls say...your stories sort of reveal that, in a subtle way--as well as how we behave under severe stress! Learning a ton here about commercial flying...many thanks!

I'm retired, not a pilot, and I find these in-depth presentation most edifying. The lessons learned have myriad applications. Thank you!

i can only imagine from the title that the pilots were having a duel or something and beating the shit outa each other with the "pull up, PULL UP!" alarm playing

Here's my advice. KEEP THE AUTOPILOT IN, particularly with weather close to minima, if you haven't been cleared to land, or there is anything obstructing the runway. There are zero prizes for showing off your manual flying skills. Save it for day vmc, when you're well rested and in low workload environments.

As always, thank you for these incredible videos. I work as a data analyst in a fast-growing company and I often reference these videos and the valuable lessons of "crew resource management," (CRM). These lessons can apply to many different industries besides aviation. Its also astonishing how resistant people are in corporations I have worked in, to implementing any type of "CRM."

Another quality video, from a quality pilot. I discovered your channel only a week ago and have managed to binge around 75% of your videos. Your documenting of these tragic events is of so much more quality and respect than the Mayday/Air Crash Investigation docs. Please keep up what you’re doing. Love from the UK 💛

I'm not a pilot, but I really enjoy watching your videos. I love how you explain all the "nerdy details" and I think the production level of your channel is fantastic! Thank you so much for your time and effort that you put into your content. I have been watching for quite a while and re-watch episodes frequently.

you're so good peter..! i have learned so much about aviation from your videos and i keep on learning every time see a new one.. thank you for making time to get these videos done, and thanks to your excellent team for making such great simulations, animations and visuals to support the explanations.. sending love and best wishes!

Very poor CRM, very poor Captaincy. Piss poor piloting. This has reflections of AF447, which again was pilot error. It raises big questions for Air France and its training systems which I hope have been addressed. .

The lack of communication in the cockpit during this incident is unreal. Fantastic video and explanation, I was glued to my seat watching this one!

you are the best... i can practically fly a plane now..

This was really fascinating, thank you. The fact that both pilots thought they were fighting the machine but they were in fact fighting each other.

You are a great communicator . Thank you foe your well produced videos

I have a merch Idea. Offer a tee-shirt that says "Remember that. It will become important later." Petter says that seemingly at least once in every video! 😂

Another example of why communication is so important.

I love these videos. First, because for many of us, its the closest thing we will do to actually flying a commercial aircraft but more importantly, it allows me to understand more about what is happening. I fly alot for my job, and I love identifying the different stages of the flight sequence as its happening. I also enjoy guessing what is happening in the cockpit, who is pilot flying/monitoring, weather effects, even different approach options. Thank you for spending the time describing the details of how the different mechanisms work, absolutely intriguing.

I love your videos. As a truck driver i cant watch them while im driving, but listen to them. You do a great job where i can pictures it.

This type of (dual input) issue was recently talked about in my company (i flew 737) as when the FO is PF theres a lot of instances where the CP makes input to the controls and makes the FO (specially younger ones) think that CP had taken full controll and relax his input causing unstabilized app and sometimes hard landings. Its been briefed to the whole pilots to make sure that when no "verbal" change of control happens to continue flying the plane. And for CP to communicate more clearly and revert to taking full over the controll when in doubt about the FO skills.

TOGA and banking at the same time is what you do in a jet fighter, not a commercial airplane.

That was an outstanding narration of the events as they occurred! Thank you for sharing.

Something I really appreciate of these videos are the detailed descriptions and explanations. You can listen the whole narration with audio only and it works perfectly well. Thanks so much!

this is the kind of nerdy stuff that makes engineers happy

Air France seems to have a serious training issue. They’ve had too many accidents/incidents the past 15 years. I’d avoid flying with them.

I love your videos especially when all ends well for everyone! Love the graphics and all the technical detail!

As always, extremely well explained and delivered. Thank you. Excellent videos.

Even if control breakouts were only indented for control jams, I think a "duel input" warning might have solved the issue. I get you don't need it when you can fully feel the other pilot's input (if any) but if the yoke isn't simulating a mechanical linkage, then there should be some indication.

Another great one...I kept waiting for one of these pilots to finally say "my airplane, my airplane" and was relieved when the Captain finally did!

I have been watching your videos for a long time. I'm not a pilot but have flown many times. Everything has always gone fine except a couple times with fairly strong turbulence, once when landing, which made the plane touch down pretty hard. Seeing all that it takes to actually fly an airplane has been very eye-opening. Thanks for all the videos. I've really gained an appreciation for all that you pilots have to do and be responsible for.

i'm an aspiring aerospace engineer and i watch these videos partly to help make smarter design decisions in my career! love your vids.

I think you are an ace-pilot probably - but more than that you are an AMAZING story-teller. I feel pretty sure you could sit in front of a campfire with no animation recreations and just TELL us this and other stories and we be just as engaged and locked into suspense! It's fascinating how complicated aircraft have become in the effort to fly higher, farther and faster. The only time I've been in cockpit has been as a photographer in a light single engine aircraft about 25 years ago with a then 60-something Korean War pilot who was quite a character. I had played with flight sims in the 90s on Macintosh and those things like "F/A-18 Hornet" flew like lawn darts - no crosswind or atmospheric effects so crabbing in a crosswind in the real thing was a surprise to me and Cap'n Jack as we affectionately knew him would guard the yoke and let me try to fly the plane on approaches probably to convince me I knew ZIP about what I thought I knew. "MY CONTROLS!" and I put my hands under my thighs and let him gratefully have it back when he could see me sweating in over my head. There's a sea-man's saying I read in an old Arthur C. Clarke book that goes "When you've thought of everything, the sea will think of something else" which I take to mean no matter what you think can go wrong and have a plan for, something original and unexpected will happen. As a photographer I used to use a now defunct storage system called a SyQuest disk. In the days when every computer had a floppy and CD burners were in their infancy people used to use them for large files, but at some point there was a bug no one could figure out and you'd take the disk to another computer and it WOULD NOT MOUNT. The company took a huge hit from this and just as fast their reputation for unreliability spread like wildfire and everyone moved to the cheaper, bigger Zip Drives and SyQuest went into it's grave as a company and the bug was never resolved. Years later IIRC some kid playing with a defunct drive figured out the glitch that had eluded all the experts and engineers and it was that a custom desktop icon couldn't load on the Mac desktop then the disk couldn't mount and if it couldn't mount you couldn't fix the icon and so you had a bricked disk. The kid discovered a work around I remember reading, I hadn't thrown out my old drive and disks, followed the workaround and BOOM they all suddenly worked like new. I remember reading an article about this in some tech daily and the enormous amount of man-hours trying to fix those SyQuest disks was staggering and end-users like me and bog only knows how many others had deadlines crash and data and hours of work and money lost was staggering. And it was one little glitch that would go unsolved for years after the dust settled amazed me. So there's Starfleet Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott's axiom that the more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to stop up. Things like this control yoke design frighten me as a nervous flyer and yet we all continue to fly trusting that it won't happen on our flight - that everyone is well rested, our pilots steely-eyed missile man unflappable and all the bolts on door panels are tight as a tick!

I can carry 10,000 hours of recorded music in my pocket, and have been able to do so for decades. The recording over of critical information is an inexcusable failure of regulation.

Another great video. Having only done a small amount of private light plane and glider flying, I find the comprehensive - what you called nerdy, which they are not IMO - information of these jet aircraft tremendously interesting. Since I will never pilot a plane again, it gives me a great feeling seeing the in-flight segments and feeling the exhilaration of take-of and landing. I fully identified with your comment of enjoying actually feeling the plane in your hands. For a time I flew regularly on long distance flights between home and where I was working. Seeing the number of things that can go wrong has made me aware that now I will definitely now be less relaxed during a flight than I was then!

I enjoy all of your videos! As a retired American Airlines captain with over 20,000 total hours and 5,100 in the 737-800, I noticed that you commented that the 777 has the electric checked list in order to help pilots not forget a checklist list item and that wished you had that on the 737. Just so you know, American has what's called the mechanical checklist on all non-electronic checks list aircraft. The mechanical checklist was on the B-727 way back in 1986 when I started at AA. The mechanical check list worked by physically moving a lever from the open item position to the closed or completed position when that item was called out "completed". It worked great, providing a safe way to complete a checklist This checklist only had critical takeoff and landing items, so it was fairly short and sweet. I feel that the mechanical checklist should be installed on all non-electronic checklist aircraft. Keep up the great work you're doing. Steve Fields Retired American Airlines Captain