The Problem with Ecumaniacs! Gavin Ashenden on Anglicans who refuse to pay the price to come home 

Thank you so much for this plunge into the fog ! I’m a recent convert after 58 years of Protestantism and so grateful for Catholic unscripted as well as the true church.. grateful from across the pond!

Thanks for this excellent analysis & breakdown. I'm a very recent convert to the Ordinariate and say from experience that it has cost me something in terms of my personal relationships. I walked away from generations of Protestant associations to purchase the pearl of great price. I listened to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and realized there was no other way. TEC, ACNA, Anglo-Catholicism could not fill the longing. I'm home and I hate to think that the Mother Church would compromise herself in the name of being "nice".

Amoris Laetitia is slap in the face to any divorced Catholic who maintains fidelity to their (non- annulled) marriage vows. Their cross is made all the heavier by isolation from their children (who often side with the other parent) and the well meaning (nay, stupid) exhortations from friends to find a new 'partner' .

Thank God for Dr Ashenden. ❤❤❤

The really great thing about "Catholic Unscripted" is that it is lay people who are actually evangelizing, in the way Vatican II called ordinarily laypeople to evangelize. Finally, people are starting to understand what Vatican II has called us all to do. Up to this point, very few people even thought about evangelizing. In this instance, an excellent discussion of the Catholic church's relationship to Anglicanism, and why being a half Catholic is simply not possible.

Thank you Dr Ashenden

I'm not sure I feel better for this conversation but I'm very glad I heard it. I'm an ex Anglican, converted to Catholicism after the women's ordination vote. Paid the full price, as Gavin puts it. Pope Francis's antics have been a terrible burden. I recognise the nonsense for what it is from my time in the Anglican church and you only have to look at what little is left of the Anglican church today to see where it leads. Pray that the next college of cardinals recognise the error for what it is and correct it.

Age 75. 5 years RC. 55 years Anglo Catholic. Searching for something not offered. Gavin is right. It was all a murk for most of my life. Finally I swam the Tiber. Now all is clear and comfortable. Become a Catholic.

After many years of being outside the church, having been raised Anglican/ AngloCatholic (I grew up in Walsingham!). I've returned to the church, having accidentally found an Ordinariate parish & formally converted to Catholicism. It would be a very sad day if the Ordinariate got reorganized out of existence in order to bring in the rest of the Anglican church

From Australia. Thank you Catherine, Gavin and Mark for your excellent analyses of important, topical (and timeless) issues, especially in the confusion of the current papacy. The distincts gifts of each of you complement each other nicely. Your brief discourse on annulment could not have been more articulate Catherine.

“Divorce” has nothing at all to do with it. The Catholic Church does not recognise “divorce” so it does not place any of the Faithful into the category of “divorced Catholics”. So, if a Catholic couple obtain a civil divorce, as far as the Church is concerned, they remain married. If one, or both of them, then enters into a subsequent civil marriage, then the Church simply does not recognise that relationship as a marriage. As far as the Church is concerned, the couple are simply “living together”. That, in itself, does not constitute a “sin”. So, if the couple in the new civil marriage have children, then the Church would not expect either of the parents to simply walk out and abandon the children. What the Church proposes, as the ideal, in such a case is that the couple should have separate bedrooms and live together, having joint responsibility for brining up their children, without engaging in further sexual intercourse. So, there is no question at all of the Church denying the Eucharist to a “divorced” person. If the Church does deny such a person the Eucharist, it can only be on the basis that they are living an unrepentant sinful life. So, they are treated in exactly the same way as a couple who are living together without being married in the eyes of the Church. So, essentially, it is up to the Pastor to treat each case individually. To deny any Catholic the Eucharist, the Pastor must be satisfied that the person is living an unrepentant sinful life. So, let us take this hypothetical couple - living together without being married in the eyes of the Church, good parents, living otherwise Godly and upright lives, having followed the advice of their Pastor to have separate bedrooms and not engage in sexual intercourse. If the Pastor is aware, as the Confessor to the couple, that they are making a genuine effort to live chaste lives and, on the rare occasions where they fail to do so, they seek forgiveness through Confession, he is able to let them receive the Eucharist, if he considers that they are in a state of grace at the time they come to receive the Eucharist. So, the whole question “can a divorced Catholic receive the Eucharist” is a non issue. The Church is concerned only as to whether the person wishing to receive the Eucharist is in a state of grace and it is perfectly possible that a couple, living together without being married in the eyes of the Church, are in a state of grace. Such a couple (where young children are involved) must weigh up all of the issues. On the one hand, living apart might make it easier for them to avoid sin - on the other hand, it would create unhappiness, or, indeed, trauma, for their children. So, there is no simplistic, easy, answer.

If only Francis would work towards full communion with traditional Catholics ……

When I was an 'Anglo-Catholic', I bought into the erroneous notion that Catholicism was a loose fluid notion. Since being received, I can now recite the Creed with clarity, confidence & calmness. ie. There is, and can only ever be, ONE Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church. Conversion always necessarily requires an element of sacrifice, but it brings great peace.

The Church needs NOT "move towards" anything. The Church is the trunk, and the others are splintered branches. It is the branch that needs to graft back into its base to live. Is the ANGLICANS, or any other, who need to quit its error and move BACK INTO the teachings of Jesus AS HE INSTRUCTED THE APOSTLES and is preserved in Scripture and in the Magisterium. That applies to Modernists and to Bergoglio.

Look at Wiki for a comprensive and fair discussion of Apostolicae Curae. As an ex-Anglican clergyman I joined the church convinced that ultramontanism had been largely rejected in favour of broadly speaking the views of St John Henry Newman. I came to accept Vatican I with its stress on the Deposit of Faith and am a happy member of the Ordinariate.

As a 70 year old man, I am so glad I was Baptized Catholic as an infant. Things have gotten so much more complicated since then. 😊

Thank you folk's for clearing this up. Good to know the significance of quotation mark's in newspaper headline's 👍.

Catherin, you look beautiful in those colors! Sorry. 😅 Anyway, enjoyed your show, as usual.

Haven't listened to this yet but I will. I see that you're over 8000 subscribers. Congratulations!

“Pray and make sacrifices for many people go to Hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them” Our Lady of Fatima to the Shepherd Children. As Catholics, we need to remember that our role when storms surround the Barque of Peter is to pray, especially the Rosary which Our Lady has consistently requested at all her apparitions for the past 200+ years. If the confusion in the church is leading people into error, besides providing correction we must also pray and make sacrifices. Pray the Rosary every single day as Our Lady has requested. It is a powerful spiritual weapon against heresy. This is the “hard work” that we must do, not just wait for the Pope to die. Pray, pray, pray. 🙏

Am praying for Your Intentions Cardinal Vincent! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Renee from Kenilworth! 🤗

can you imagine that Iverson would say something like that about the distinguished African cardinals and bishops and faithful people, as discounting them as people with whom Iverson can never match nor command respect as African martyrs and hierarchy have ..

Well done video ❤

Great conversation thanks

There is no such thing as “Novus Ordo annulments”. Cannon Law does not acknowledge any changes or nuance to the Laws pertaining to legitimate annulments. There are clear specific rules which govern the validity or invalidity of marriage. The rules (Laws) do not change.

Perhaps though Catholics aghast at the excesses of ecumenism (myself well included) are like the other son, equally aghast at his father’s acceptance of his wasteful and wanton brother being openly accepting him back without what he felt was sufficient repentance. We know not of the Fathers rationale, only that lost sheep are collected back into the flock

It is impressive to me for many years,regarding the Christian states of life, that while consecrated people with permanent vows and priests,the Church allows dispensation from their vows ,while in the married state ,indissolubility is absolute. The Lord teaching is very clear. A total different thing are the nullity declarations,which you discussed in a very clear way. THANK YOU

The Divine Office & the St. Gregory’s Prayerbook produced by the Oridnariate are both wonderful, and not merely “habits”, they are both thoroughly Roman Catholic and at the same time, honour the patrimony of the English Catholic Church throughout many centuries. The ACNA is far from Monolithic. . .you have all the different strains of Anglicanism within it that you had in TEC, except that they are more conservative on several issues. That said, none of them (including those who are W.O. Proponents) would support Fiducia Suplicans. Furthermore, I don’t imagine anyone (not even the Anglicans in conversation with Rome) would for a split second wish to abrogate the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. So the staw group (staw man) of “Ecumaniacs” is balderdash. As to your theoretical couple looking for an annulment, those are done by each diocese and has little bearing on who is sitting in the Chair of St. Peter, so that is a non-issue. As to the hope against hope of those who have ecumenical desires for Union, I would not call them Ecumaniacs,, but rather wistful perhaps.

Yes there is - absolutely - a price to pay but, like Katherine said, its always better in the end. The other option of just doing whatever one likes because it feels good at the time is turning things into chaos. Especially at the family unit level. The number of people I know personally who have children outside marriage, don't understand that real sacrament of marriage, and then the amount of "blended" families there are is just outnumbering tradition. I always remember hosting a dinner for a family where there were seven children, all from three different mothers, same father, and some of them were attracted to each other (teenagers) 😱

Can more than one annulment be granted? I had one marriage annulled unfortunately 8 years after that I made another I think invalid marriage where we never lived together & actual time from marriage to civil divorce less than 1 year. This last civil divorce was 12 years ago. Is there any chance the Roman Catholic Church will grant two annulments? I am humbly working through the paperwork & answering those difficult questions.

I note that you only offer an Annual Membership for the Gold but not the Silver or Bronze. Could you address this, please?

The application of papal infallibility is very limited in scope.

One step forward and two steps back. Of course, Anglican orders are invalid. In no way, did Christ intend the monarch of England to be the head of the Church. The order of the day is obfuscation vs truth. Heaven help us. Excellent job again

who is worried?? we already know this papacy is full of indifference and corruption and discarding the truth of our dogmas and doctrines in full communion with the apostles and 2000 years of steady genuine truth. and then women priests??

And there I was hoping to become a Roman Catholic but whoops, I am divorced. Is that it for me? I hope not, but how can I fulfill my faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ if I cannot receive communion? For my sins my marriage has failed. Is this beyond forgiveness?

the big word is “sorry” i was wrong. 33:34 33:35

The current ecumenical policy is one of “convergence” rather than “conversion” therein lies the issue or the heresy?

can you imagine that Iverson would say something like that about the distinguished African cardinals and bishops and faithful people, as discounting them as people with whom Iverson can never match nor command respect as African martyrs and hierarchy have .. 17:43

There is a complete falsehood asserted by the article, viz., that the SSPX claims the reformed Roman ordinations rites are invalid. The Society does not and has never said this.

God doesn't compromise. You can do it His way, or yours.

Catherine please note this ruling refers to divorced AND remarried catholics. Divorce does not excommunicate a person. Annulment is not the same as a civil divorce. It is a statement by the Vatican that the marriage was not sacramentally valid for specific reasons. 3 reasons only. 1 Homosexuality 2. Marrying outside the Christian faith eg to a Muslim 3 . Immaturity of one or both of the partners such that it was forced, there was deception, or that the marriage was not consummated consensually. E.g. Minimum age 17 for females. There have been notorious examples of stupid decisions by the Vatican. In the 1950s a woman who was forced into a marriage refused to have sex but was drugged in order to consummate the marriage. She was refused an annulment on the grounds she consented to take the drugs therefore she consented to sex. A woman in USA has recently been refused an annulment when her husband underwent a gender reassignment. A royal marriage was defined by the Council of Trent to involve a girl aged 10 or older who was never asked for her consent, and a man aged 25 or older. These marriages were ordered by the Pope to create support for the church amongst royal families and the nobility. As the bride had a large dowry she was effectively bought and sold like a sex slave. This has not been practised for at least a century . All of these problems were reformed after Vatican II. However currently in Africa and some other countries women still have a bride price . It is a form of Slave trade in my opinion.

The back-end conversation on Marriage and Annulments should probably be in a separate video. The actual practice of the Church on this topic is unfortunately not as clean as the official teaching. I had to go through a Convalidation and was refused the Eucharist until it was approved. But I know others who are not denied regardless of about anything. One who even teach in the Church in another parish who were never married in the Church and regularly receive Communion. They were married in another religion's ceremony. This particular person thinks anyone who believe the Church's teaching is backwards as the Pope has said about conservatives in the Church. This person also seems to think anyone who holds to the Church's teachings in many areas but especially Marriage and sexuality is Rad Trad even if they don't attend a Latin Mass showing how little the saying is understood and how broad it is being used. My parents were divorced, and both my parents were remarried outside the Church and regularly attending Mass and received Communion. Only my father attended with any regularity but my mom did about once a month or so. They tried to get an Annulment but were refused. They seemed to think other people were more easily given one than others and the process wasn't exactly fair. A doctor of mine left the Church because his wife of 35+ years with several children declared she was gay and left him for a woman. He was refused an Annulment so he left the Church and remarried outside the Church. He is now in a liberal Lutheran church were his new "wife" attends. He was a regularly attending member in leadership position at my local parish. I could go on, but I think it appears the Church isn't holding to this in practice as is often the case with many things. I am not sure many fully understand the Church's teaching to be honest, not many people read the Catechism much less the conversations that brought in about and the depth of thinking there.

My procreation gift roles include as an "ecumaniac". My consecrated marriage role identity exercises an absolute power of authorisation of advantageous combining of roman catholic and anglican gift roles. No price to pay by these gift roles.

how would anyone know if you presented yourself in good conscience to receive communion as a divorced person. who would know???

_Apostolicae Curae_ was a pastoral, pragmatic document written at a particular point in time. The Dutch Touch was hardly in the picture then. We moan that the C if E has started ordaining women, and that is true. But before that Pius IX got himself made infallible, which is equally egregious. So we’ve both got cause to repent.

Gavin’s definition of Ecuminism doesn’t make it clear whether he includes the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches as part of the ‘holy, Catholic and apostolic church’.

Valid sacramentally. It is a legal marriage, of course.

The RC Church changes its rules - e.g. in Henry VIII's time, the children of a marriage considered invalid were illegitimate; today, they are legitimate.

*"Don't ask the Church to meet you in the pigsty."* I've long said converts are more passionate than us cradles! 😆

Catholic Marriage needs to totally re-examine every thing about Marriage. From who's entitled to get married to the actual marriage ceremony preparation and how long it should be to helping marriage. To helping people who's marriage is in serious trouble. To the harmonisation of the difficult process of divorce with the process of anullment. In other words steps in the anullment could almost mirror or follow the divorce although at the end the divorce would have to be well established before the anullment proceeds. The reason being the trauma being relieved can be almost impossible.

I might be wrong …but I think Kath & Gavin have got an idealistic and too legalistic view of Salvation . Their logic seems supra Christlike

The Orthodox Church is the Church the Lord Jesus Christ founded, it is what it says on the box. Gavin misses the point, the next pope may be kind of moderate but the one after will be Francis II. Gavin doesn't understand that the RCC all revolves around the whim of the current Bishop of Rome. Gavin needs to pay the price and come home to Orthodoxy. ☦

The man's name is "Jules Gomes" not "Gomez". A Portuguese name. Pronounced like "Lopes", not "Lopez".

how would anyone know if you presented yourself in good conscience to receive communion as a divorced person. who would know??? 21:51

who is worried?? we already know this papacy is full of indifference and corruption and discarding the truth of our dogmas and doctrines in full communion with the apostles and 2000 years of steady genuine truth.

Gavin is a star.

There is only one holy apostalic catholic church.

Since Jesus said not a jot can be removed from the law then divorce under certain circumstances as described in Matthew’s Gospel is allowable.

You two are the BEST! I was stationed in Scotland for two years but toured all over the country. It was the best tour of duty I had in my naval career. I know what and Eccles cakes are. Ate some, like them. This was in the late 1960's so the country was not in the condition it is now. So sorry.

Didn't Pope Francis just give a homily on 'closed' Catholic communities? I keep hearing that haunting theme music from 'The Remains of the Day', and there's too that tune from a Mr. B. Dylan: Come gather 'round people Wherever you roam And admit that the waters Around you have grown And accept it that soon You'll be drenched to the bone If your time to you is worth savin' And you better start swimmin' Or you'll sink like a stone For the times they are a-changin' Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen And keep your eyes wide The chance won't come again And don't speak too soon For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin' For the loser now Will be later to win For the times they are a-changin' Come senators, congressmen Please heed the call Don't stand in the doorway Don't block up the hall For he that gets hurt Will be he who has stalled The battle outside ragin' Will soon shake your windows And rattle your walls For the times they are a-changin' Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin' The line it is drawn The curse it is cast The slow one now Will later be fast As the present now Will later be past The order is rapidly fadin' And the first one now Will later be last For the times they are a-changin'

The Ordinariate is not Roman; it is Sarum Rite with 1st Prayer Book Lutheran.

"Ecumenia" is a word that one of my old University professors first used to describe those who are so ecumenical that they will water down even the Truth to suit ecumenism. I believe that Father Calvin's problem is the present Pope...but that is the problem. Popes come and go, and either you are going to be a Catholic or you are not.

The Ex. Cathedra statement targeting Rome governance is very predictable and bankable.....before the next pope - (Pizza)

Of course it’s not going to happen.

It’s time for Ecumaniacs and we’re zany to the max

magical worlds seems to be running everything...😂

Protestantism is bizarre.

Eccles cakes are fantastic

Is it possible that your Pope hates traditionalists so much, especially ones like Gaven, that he may make this sort of move? I think it’s more possible than Gaven is willing to admit.

I'll try not to be naughty on Gavin's website. I have deleted my comments which are out of place here. By the way, "ecumaniacs" has been in use since Vatican II, coined (I think) by Protestants concerned with the kind of murky thinking, in World Council of Churhes pronouncements and the like, that Gavin is rightly complaining about now. We fiery Protestants used the word from time to time in the 1960s and later.

The current practice of the Catholic Church of granting divorces but calling them annulments causes major problems. The civil authority, having more honesty and integrity than the Catholic Church, will not grant an annulment in most cases. It considers the approach adopted by the Catholic Church, that, if the couple now want to bring the marriage to an end, their original consents cannot have been sufficient to create a valid marriage in the first place, as a complete fiction (which it is). The Catholic Church applies this fiction because of the clear words of Jesus, forbidding divorce outright. So, the Catholic Church, wishing to follow the world in granting divorces, is forced to apply the fiction that the marriage never existed in the first place. Therein lies the problem. The couple don’t wish to separate, in reality, because they repent of having given false consent (they know perfectly well that their consent was genuine). The wish to divorce so that they can validly remarry. So, they must apply for a civil divorce. In those proceedings, they must state to the Court that they consider that the marriage was a genuine one (that is, that they gave a genuine consent). If not, the Court would not entertain the application for a divorce, but would require them to apply for a civil annulment, which the civil law would not grant, because the civil authority has more honesty and integrity than the Catholic Church. So, they must make statements to the Court which contradict the statements which they made to the Church. Don’t worry, the Church tells them. Lie to the Court, then go to Confession afterwards. After all, Confession is there to deal with the fact that you lived in fornication during your purported marriage, that you brought illegitimate children into the world, that you “anticipated” your annulment by committing fornication with your new spouse pending the granting of your annulment. So, the couple must lie (according to the Church) to the Court to obtain their civil divorce and civil remarriage (although, in reality, what they tell the Court is the truth and what they tell the Church is a lie) and then make it all right afterwards by going to Confession. When St. Thomas Moore was advised to swear the Oath publicly but not consent in his heart, going to Confession afterwards to deal with his false Oath, to save his life, he refused. He refused to swear a false Oath, because that would not only offend God, but would deceive others into thinking that he believed what he swore. However, today the Church readily advises the Faithful to swear false Oaths in the civil proceedings, then go to Confession afterwards, but, since the civil Oaths are, in fact, true and the statements made in the Church annulment are, in fact, false, there is the further sin of making a false Confession! Oh, what a tangled web the Church weaves, when now it practices to deceive !

Gavin you are more charitable than me, a sinner indeed. This editor is like the serpent in Genesis. He does not care about truth, but manipulates language for his own gains

novus ordo annulments are "catholic" divorces..bergoglio insists that annulments be granted without let or hindrance

Anathema sit to this pair in all their errors, or I should say anathema sint.

Wow! You really messed up this episode. Over & over & over again you said "divorced Catholics" can't receive communion!! NOT TRUE..... Neither Gavin nor Katherine said it was "divorced-&-REMARRIED Catholics" who should not receive. (Leaving aside Benedict & the internal-forum process). This was so bad, so repeated and so wrong you need to delete and re-do. Sorry. But I do appreciate your usual efforts greatly. You need to be CLEAR that "divorced Catholics" are in no way prevented from receiving (by this status alone). There are a vast number of divorced catholics who live chastely according to their state. They were wrongfully insulted by this piece. And they may be wondering if they can now receive. Over & over you said "divorced Catholics" (can't receive) without the essential caveat "remarried" Please delete or re-do.

Apologies, Gavin, but....the idea of denominations in Christianity is not a Christian idea...

There is a lot Rome does not understand about marriage.

Ashenden has very erroneous ideas on "Catholic", as well as about his slanderous "ecumaniac".

There is nothing theologically against the ordination of women; it is a matter of discipline.

Come on, Gavin. How do you arrive at the conclusion that Calvin has lost credibility? I listened to Calvin conversation with Taylor, and I think Calvin came across well. I'm a Christian. I grew up Catholic. I became a Christian outside the Catholic and have remained outside Rome. There's no way the Rome Catholic Church is the one true Church. Look at the present pope, Judas 1st . There is salvation outside Rome. Salvation is in Christ Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

the big word is “sorry” i was wrong. 33:34 33:35