The Rapture Vs. The Pre-Wrath View 

The words pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib are not fitting terms for the last days tribulation period because I think what is written in Matthew 24: 15-22 already happened in 66AD-73 AD. The destruction of the temple at 70AD and the great tribulation from 70AD-73/74 AD. In Matthew 24:21 Jesus said: " For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." That is still true because what is leading up to the wrath will not be as bad as these times (last days tribulation period = birthing pains, Rev. 8 & 9 & 11:15-19). The Wrath is found in Rev 15. Please keep in mind that the warning is meant for the Christians. The rapture will happen prior to the wrath.

​​@@sportsman0075could it not be double prophecy Godbless

@@Trevor-nc3ox yes It could be a double conundrum. However that would mean christians would have to go through the tribulation period. Which they did in the first century. In the end however when God will pour out his wrath written in Rev. 16 there is no mentioning that the christians are still around. And why would God punish his beloved who received forgivness in the first place. The word tribulation implies going through some trouble. The word tribulation was used exclusively for the christians so wrath ≠ tribulation.

@@sportsman0075 yes good point in Greek to be caught up is word Harpatzo to be sized eagerly ,yeah not much of church after rev 4 ,I see revelation saints in tribulation not us Titus 2:13 I know there is alot of controversy but saved is saved Godbless you

I flatlined in the hospital in 2005 and found myself in that white vertical tunnel/shaft that I suppose leads to heaven. I've heard people speak of it before, but I was only there long enough to figure out where I was, then I was back. Never forget it though.

Jeanie if you were to die today would you be sure that you were going to Heaven?

Bruce G. I wonder if those tunnel things are just our brain chemicals at point of death or near death. That the real thing “being present with the Lord” is indescribable. :)

Your comment speaks of truth and what God Almighty wishes for us! I'm also saddened by how people treat one another. I watch a lot of martial arts and the comments are awful. If someone disagrees with you, instead of understanding there are differing points of view, it is no reason to call someone stupid or another ugly name. I see this more with millennials then other age groups. What's happening with this generation!? They have no, absolutely no compassion... Anyway, just thought I'd stop and comment and applaude your comment! It's been a while since you wrote... I hope you and yours are well and healthy.... God bless sis!

God bless your heart, you are an inspiration xx

Charles Pieters Matthew 24 29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Revelation 6 12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 7 9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Both passages clearly state that the rapture is AFTER the sun moon stars signs. After the Tribulation but before God’s Wrath. As for your little dig, I’ll ignore it. I’m not still in flux over the issue nor will my salvation depend on this issue. I’m ready if I die or the Lord comes for me. With an attitude like yours, are you ready?

@Charles Pieters, what your position? Pretrib, Midtrib, PreWrath, PostTrib?

@MIPR, there are some in the PreWrath camp that believe that the Rapture could be at the last Trumpet too. What say you about that?

There's the problem with your position: In chapter 5, there are 24 elders before the throne of God, seated on thrones and wearing crowns. These are representing the church and, since they have crowns, must have been thriugh the Bema judgment of Christ meaning that the rapture and resurrection is passed and that the church is in heaven. This is way before the trumpet judgments begin. Problem 2: the last trumpet judgment is based on connecting Paul's account linking the rapture to the last trump of God and assuming that that trumpet is the last trumpet judgment, however, that poses a major difficulty. First, John wrote Revelation about 20 to 30 years after Paul died. That leaves the church saying, "What?" for all that time and not understanding what Paul was talking about until John writes his book. Im other words, Paul could not have been alluding to something that had not been written yet. You need a better explanation than the last trumpet judgment.

@@livinglifeoutdoorstv6550 They say no such thing. You see that in the text because that is what you have been trained to see. He does not say that the saints are raptured just prior to this, he simply states that he saw them after this. As to the elect, check your Bible, it doesn't always apply to the church. Those can be elect from Israel as easily and if you look at the verses just prior to that verse 9, those verses you conveniently left out provide some potentially serious context since he finishes talking about 144,000 Jewish believers. Then after the verses you quote, it says they came out of Great Tribulation, coincidentally, the very place that group of Jews would have been saved from. Quoting obscure passages to cement a foundation for doctrinal statements is never a good thing.

not gone pan out for some expecting to to escape great tribulation and find themselves in the middle of it. many will fall away

@Somers Farm the elect is Israel (saved jews) in Matthew 24. Look up every verses about the rapture and look up every verse about the Day of the Lord (second coming). You will see they are two different events. Read 2nd Thessalonians where it talks about the rapture, it says two things must take place before it happens: great apostasy and Anti Christ is revealed. Rapture is pre wrath event as you stated. Wrath of God is also different from Great Tribulation. Read Revelations about the bowls and trumpets judgements which are wrath of God. Tribulation is from the devil, that's in the seals. First seal is anti Christ. 5th seal saints are martyred. Rapture is between 6th an 7th seal. Just cause Jesus is not rapturing church tomorrow doesn't mean u won't die tomorrow and stand b4 God. So stay ready to give an account to your maker. Second coming will be like a thief in the night to none believers, not believers for we will return with Him with new glorified bodies after the dead in Christ rise first. C u in Da air 😀

Somers Farm Remember also, Jesus was speaking only to the Jews (Matthew 24) and Paul only to the Gentiles/church (Thessalonians). 2 different groups with 2 different tribulation scenarios.

The pre-wrath rapture comes approx. mid-trib. Daniel 12:12, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." From day one of the trib until the abomination, Antichrist in the temple, is 1,260 days add 75 days of Great Tribulation of the saints, the fifth seal which is two waves of martyrdom equals 1,335 days. Lest Jesus cut those days {of martyrdom} short no FLESH would have survived. Then comes the sixth seal, Christ's second coming and the rapture. Matt. 24:29 Then the tribulation is over and then "His wrath came." The remaining time God pours out His wrath on unbelievers,{bowl judgements} as we are not appointed unto wrath.

@@BibleSamurai List of 9 points (Raptures & Resurrections) all separate occurrences listed hereunder: 1. The rapture of Enoch [Genesis 5v24 + Hebrews 11v5-6] - A type for the church/bride (faith) 2. The rapture of Elijah [2 Kings 2v11] - A type for Israel (law) 3. The resurrection & ascension of Jesus (First) [Matthew 27v52-54 + Acts 1v9-11] 4. The resurrection & rapture of many of the saints (directly after His resurrection) [Hosea 6v2 + Matthew 27v52-54] 5. The resurrection & rapture of the church/bride [1 Thessalonians 4v16-17 & Rev 4v1] (Pre-trib) 6. The resurrection & rapture of the two witnesses [Rev 11v11-12] (Mid-trib - after 1260 days) 7. The rapture of the 144000 [Rev 14v3] (definitely before the second coming, certainly pre-wrath) 8. The resurrection of those who were beheaded [Rev 20v4] with the ingathering of the elect to Jerusalem from the four corners of the earth and heaven [Mark 13v26-27; Matthew 24v29-31 & Jude 1v14] (The ingathering of the elect on earth is a type of rapture - like Philip in Acts 8) (just after the second coming) 9. The resurrection of those who are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire [Rev 20v12-15] at The End of days ~ KJV

jmsloss Thank you for what you wrote. Love from Denmark 🇩🇰.

Yeah it's sad to watch. Especially because we are told not to squabble. We also aren't supposed to argue about every little thing. Plant your seed lovingly or point out false doctrines lovingly and shut it down if an argument begins. This is one reason I despise the internet because people wouldn't have said most of the garbage they post to someone's face. It does remind me of a time pre internet where people just talked about you behind your back! 😁

I think what people forget is "For whoever believes in him shall NOT perish, but have everlasting life." Regardless your interpretation the only true one is what he meant when he was here the first time. People need to be more accepting. Jesus was here to give comfort to the mourning and those in pain, and to give strength to those who have been made weak. If it makes one stronger to believe when they go to rest that they see his face, I see nothing wrong with that. It does not match how I have read and took literal what is written. However it does match the overwhelming Grace given to all of his saints who spread his word. They who wake in the morning and pray to God, drive down the road praying to God, before bed pray to God; pray for forgiveness, thanks, refuge, peace, truth, freedom, assurance, selflessness, and love through him who died to intercede for us will be given comfort. He doesn't want to just be their with you when you call on him. He wants to walk with you every second of every day. "Ask and it shall be given; seek and you shall find; knock and the door will be open to you." All he requires from you is faith in him. All else will be provided if you truly give yourself to him, walk to the best of your ability like him, accept others despite your differences (fellowship), share his word. Take unto yourself his offerings. Take unto yourself the full armor of God. "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should." Our fight is not a carnal one, not of the flesh. You are not each others enemies. It doesn't matter which book you open the meaning is the same. We should not be fighting amongst each other but asking protection from the Evil one. Simple as that. Love your brother, your neighbor, ask them into your lives with open arms regardless their beliefs. Planting the seed does not mean beating them and pushing them away. Simply be the best example, witness, you can be to them and pray that it takes. Just remember that he warned us many times not to take from and follow the teachings of those who preach a different Gospel; Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Satanist, Scientology, etc. He only wrote ONE book. The translation may differ in grammar or by age of writings. But the message is the same. "I am" he is, "No Gods exist before him" he is the only, he will be back. The cloth was folded at his table when he left. His creation is finished. He is not.

"Scripture evidence" is not evidence of anything other than what is written in the bible by a bunch of psychotic men who knew very little about reality over a long period of time. Much of the time it wasn't even written by the individual it is ascribed to eg Matt, Mark, Luke and John which were written many years after their respective deaths. There is no validity in the bible and quoting it as evidence is laughable. Get an education.

@@nicholasrees1838 😂. You're funny. Run along and play. One day you will understand.

This guy is speaking truth here. Legitimate comment and critique.

Pre-wrath is the right one

Not even close! Most believe @5-6th seal.

@@nosretep1960 since when are "most" correct?

@@NicholasChorba same as most who believe Jesus is the Christ

Matthew 24:v13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Mark 13: v13b, but the one who endures to the end will be saved.” Luke 21:v19 By your endurance, you will gain your souls.

When they ask Jesus when was his return Jesus would of said at that time, if you believe in me and remain faithful I will take you out before all these things. But instead he said to watch for the abomination of desolation. We will be here for the Great tribulation. Sad that so many people teach the Great escape, they are in for a big surprise.

@@mustangpassurchevy Yes we go through a time of tribulation before we are saved. Not 7 years though. That is a made up number and is not biblical.

@@mustangpassurchevy Context, context. He was speaking to the Jewish people.

Is James not mostly talking to the jews

More correct than most on this page!

@James That’s what makes most sense - even though I’d prefer to be raptured before it all

It does matter when, for not knowing the positional timing of rapture indicates that person is presuming their salvation, thinking to be something they are not.

@Charles Pieters Yes I do know, which if you were properly watching then you should know too. But given what you said shows you don't know how to rightly divide the word of God, for 2 Pet. 3:10 concerns heaven/earth passing away, which takes place at the end of the third age, which is sometime after the Millennial reign of Christ, which is that time no man knows, nor the angels, neither Jesus Himself, but the Father only, which has nothing to do with rapture, which we can know when it takes place.

@Charles Pieters No, I haven't seen Signs of the Times. I am in the process though of writing a book called, Knowing the Times, which explains why the end times began when it did. It also proves thru scripture rapture comes after the church is corrected, which has forsaken the true gospel to believe another, which is not another, and deceives many to think they are something they're not by that light-fantastic theology they believe and teach. Concerning Rapture, I don't set dates, but one thing I know: tribulation and Ezekiel's War will occur within less than 4 years from now, in the latter days, as per Deut. 4:30 and Ezek. 38, 8, 16 (KJV), which spans from Sept. 13, 2015 Elul 29 - Sept. 25, 2022 Elul 29.

@Charles Pieters If you go to Signs of the Times and click on the username under that video, it will take you to another page. Click ABOUT on that page, and it will take you to that page, then scroll down and you see how to get his personal email, which is common procedure for many YT Channels. Some do not have it, but this one does. Have at it.

F**K OFF ADL JEW WITH YOUR FAKE ACCOUNT!

Wow how wonderful - I bet you didn't want to leave, I wouldn't! Lots of people have experienced this. Thank you for sharing.

James Gillmore please do not get mad at me - but do you think it’s possible your mind made that scene up? Like you ‘dreamed’ it?

My mother believed the same thing ... a strong Christian. However she died at the age of 84 , 10 years ago.

We are to watch anyway!!! ... how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1, 9‭-‬10 Blessed are those servants, whom the Lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. Luke 12, 37‭-‬38

@@puddintayne9254 There is a difference between expecting and being told something - Read Luke 2v26

Me too... I am 52. My mom was born in the same month Israel became a nation, and I was born just after the 6 day war when Jerusalem was reclaimed.

@@jesussaves1875 yes, Luke 2:26 is sort of the same. However, from my mother's (and all those who sleep) it will be the same. The dead will rise and we shall be caught up forever to be with the LORD. ( paraphrased 1Thes 4:17)

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There’s the rapture before the tribulation (true believers) Jesus will receive us in the clouds. The dead in Christ will receive their new bodies- Tribulation follows the rapture. The 2nd coming of Jesus and the battle of armegedon is won- People who survive the tribulation (last chance) and have turned to Christ will enter the millennium kingdom Where Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years- Satan will be thrown into hell for eternity and the new heaven & earth will be established.

Blessed2Dance4God where is Jesus physically at when rev 19 20 and rev 20 1 3 take place?

Blessed2Dance4God it’s nice to read what I believe also! Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a lie and people are being deceived. I too pray that their faith isn’t extinguished when Jesus doesn’t return pre-tribulation. God bless you mate in Jesus Christ name Amen!

Blessed2Dance4God well said thank God and thank you!

The 5th trump has already sounded. Anti-Christ comes in the 6th Trump....The True Christ comes and gathers His elect in the 7th.

Paul did NOT teach pre-trib rapture. It's a lie.

Donna Wheeler he was referring to the Jews, not the church

Those who are then living on earth after the rapture.

Yes. Exactly correct.

Matthew 24 is speaking to "those who are in Judea" (Matt.24:16) and goes on to say in v. 20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath." As a Christian living in Texas and definately NOT keeping ANY Jewish ordinances like Sabbath keeping I can only conclude Jesus was speaking directly to Jews. Matt. 15:24 "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel:"

John Campbell you are correct about Matthew 15:24, however most of the lost sheep of the house of Israel rejected Christ as He knew they would but still gave them the opportunity to receive Jesus as their savior. As we know Jesus was preparing the disciples to be instrumental in spreading the good news of the gospel to all who would have ears to hear. This includes gentiles. Converting the Jews to believe in Jesus was their main mission but when they convert, they become the church. In Matthew 24:20, There are two conditions that is to be prayed about. Winter Is one and the Sabbath is the other. There are still many Christians today living in the Judea area who honor the Sabbath despite it being under old covenant law. I believe that Jesus is saying not to hesitate but leave immediately. In the winter, people would hesitate to leave just to wait for better weather to go to the mountains. Those believers who honor the Sabbath would hesitate as well. Note that Jesus is addressing men who have converted to believe Jesus is the true Messiah. He addresses them as “you” from 4-26 as though they are still here even after the Antichrist is revealed. By this time the church is well established. “You” is representing disciples. Who are disciples when this happens? The future church is. Otherwise Jesus would have changed “you” to “they or them” who are not converted by this time if He was strictly talking to the Jews.

Randy's New Walk Ministry the whole tribulation is the wrath of God. Read ur Bible

The great tribulation is NOT about the church: The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity *of my people Israel and Judah,* saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake *concerning Israel and concerning Judah.* For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? *Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.* For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. Thus saith the Lord ; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord . And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. The fierce anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it. Jeremiah 30, 1‭-‬24 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of *my people Israel,* and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. *Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,* to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9, 20‭-‬24 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: *and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation* even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12, 1

There is no scriptural basis for two second comings. Be careful of Revelation's warning concerning adding to the text.

But if Mathew 24.29-31 is second coming(and not rapture as claimed ) followed by his touching down on Earth in Mathew 25.31, that means there are three (3) returns to earth !

100% agreed.... I found some illogical things in dispensationalism in the first 6 months I was saved... pre-trib rapture is another confirmation...

+ pair ninja The Rapture lines up with the Scriptures 100%... The Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth if you are saved.. any Doctrine aside from the Pre Tribulation Rapture is *false*.. It cannot get ANY clearer than he explains here.

+pair ninja - Scripture is not open to your own personal interpretation.

I don't understand why people keep saying that the church will not be raptured and will go through the 7 year tribulation when, out of all the studying I've done, I've never seen where scripture supports that. I'm not saying that there won't be any Christians around during that time.

the brother is dividing perfectly the word of GOD, for any additional false truth please go to the koran or the indian gita.

Valerie Green No! Is the answer

Wow!! Our Lord is so amazingly awesome! I myself have been dead but praise be to God the Father Jesus his son and the holy Spirit for allowing me to come back & tell people that hell is very real. And no one wants to go to that place that was made for the devil & his demonic angel's.

That is when he comes. He doesn't come down for the rapture, we go up.

Wait a minute.....If the 7 year tribulation begins with The Wrath of the Lamb, that is, The Wrath of the Son (Revelation 6: 16-17) - in other words, the entirety of the 7-year tribulation is All God's Wrath - how can there be a distinction between "Pre-Wrath" and "Pre-Trib"? The whole 7 years is Tribulation....And Also...God's wrath. So then, how will believers 'go through most of the Tribulation but before God's Wrath" when in fact the 7 years BEGINS with the Wrath of the Son as it says in Revelation 6:16-17) ??

Exactly! The pretrib view was cooked up in the 1800s. The trib is only 3.5 yrs not 7. If pastors and people would learn the Word Of God in it’s original language, they would know the truth. King James was a homosexual king and yet it is the most widely used “Bible” read in the pulpits.

@@soulosxpiotov7280 wait a minute, there are 6 seals that are mentioned before verses 16-17 that are not called Gods wrath that you failed to mentioned. So the entirety of the 7 years is NOT Gods wrath according to the details. That only happens right before or at the 7th seal which proclaims Gods wrath. Please, context is everything. Why are we over-complicating this?

@@soulosxpiotov7280 also the whole 7 years is NOT the tribulation. Jesus Said in this world we will have trials and tribulations, so we have always been dealing with tribulation and persecution..but in Matthew 24 He mentions a great tribulation which starts at the fifth seal. The antichrist is given to him the authority to over come the saints.

Yup👍🏼

Protected not removed ( Two different views ) one is in the bible one is not ---- If you are alive at the time of tribulations you will go through it.

That's an easy one. Enoch was the rapture symbol while Noah represents either the Jews or the people who become believers during the rapture. He could represent both because both will suffer greatly. I'm pretty sure the situation with Lot could be both as well Lot was taken out but his wife looked back. I know there are other passages that follow the same pattern but I can't remember what they were and I don't feel like a research trip. There are also a lot of passages that parallel the reason Christ would come. Like the Joseph story while he was in Egypt.

@@pocadon You need to read the bible and stop believing in fairy tails .

@@godsmwc65 The Bible is a fairytale.

Excuse me, what?

Read Revelation (Skipping the beasts descriptions) then you will see it is absolutely Chronological

Read on to verses 5-9 to get the full understanding that the restrainer ( Holy Spirit) which dwells within all Born Again Christian must me removed (Raptured) first and THEN the lawless one will be revealed.

@Charles Pieters Charles since you in your prideful mocking arrogance seem to have all the answers tell me in Thessalonians vs 2:7-8-For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work only He (capital H) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8.And then the lawless one will be revealed.. My questions here are who does the He refer to,where is he abiding at this time, and where will He be taken away to. You cite the parable in Matthew 24-30 about letting the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest when the tares will be bundled together to burn and the wheat gathered and put in the barn. Can you tell me what the barn represents? also how did these verses "debunk" me? As far as citing the verses in John referencing the raising believers up on the last day, you need to understand the context of the time He is speaking . These verses are before His crucifixion, before His resurrection, before the New Covenant, before Pentacost where the Holy Spirit was poured out to His Apostles and Jesus told them to go out and spread His Gospel of Grace through Faith, and those who believed it would be Baptized with the Holy Spirit and born again. Jesus Himself said unless one is born again he will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter He sent us when He ascended and the Restrainer that will be taken away with us when we are caught up to meet Him in the clouds. Calling people dreamers full of hot air, infidels, spiritually blind because they don't agree with your opinion and worst of all a lawless one does not reflect someone who is a true brother in Christ. You can agree to disagree with someone with out attacking them. Maybe you could humble yourself and admit you don't know it all. If your happy with your beliefs thats fine but don't attack others for having their own. May God's Grace be with you Charles.

Verse 8 also speaks of he which restrains will be taken away many believe it's talking about the Holy Spirit which dwells in us as believers so therefore before the Son of Perdition can be revealed we have to be taken away with the Holy Spirit cuz we are sealed unto the day of Christ with the Holy Spirit

The WORD used is the greek word apostasia. The definition is below. If you take context in what Paul is talking about is there a better word for the context. Yes I believe that word is departure. So then if you read it with the word departure then it would say more in context of rapture. So it would read in king James. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a DEPARTURE first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The departure would be the believer departing the Earth not the faith. @Max Power The word in 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") - properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy - literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.

@@johndepauw9820 The believer is what is restraining the devil. Salvation is through the Holy Spirit. So in order for more to be saved during the tribulation the Holy Spirit would have to still be on Earth. Also the Holy Spirit is everywhere. Not a place where he is not.

False teaching. Once Daniels 70th week starts, it is impossible for there to be a rapture. This is for people left behind. Please wait midtrib and see the man of sin revealed at the 3rd temple. See Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5-7 start for 42 months at the 5th seal. You will think at the 6th seal You will be raptured. Sadly Matthew 24 22 is for 144000 from Israel. You will be persecuted and martyred for 3 1/2 years and Immediately after that tribulation the 2nd coming will occur on the last day of Daniels 70th week. That is the day of Matthew 27-31 and Luke 17 23-37. The wicked are taken while the righteous are gathered on earth.

Hi Neil, Did you know this pre-trib doctrine was never taught until 1830? Futurism was started by a Jesuit priest in the late 1700's and his book got published around 1812. Then Maragarette mcDonald had her vision and prophetic tongue or utterance in 1830 of a "partial" rapture, then Darby invented dispensationalism about 9 months later. Jesuits were the enemies of the church and murdered over 50 million Christians. Find any pre-1830 commentator that taught this. I haven't found one yet. some of these guys blew away Charles Spurgeon like John Gill, Matthew Henry, and Adam Clarke because they knew history like no others. Most of the Millerites lost their faith when the pre-trib rapture didn't happen in 1844. 50+ cults came out of pretrib teaching including JW's, Branch Davidians, 7th Day ADventism, the beginning stages of the hebrew roots movement to name a few. I haven't found an ounce of good fruit from it. Started by wayward men, some into the occult (Larkin), Scofield a member of a secret society and taught FOUR gospels, went to jail for fraud, ripped his own mother in law off, Darby rejected by greats like Spurgeon, Mueller, and Benjamin Newton. Cults came out of it. the Bible says we will know them by their fruits and that Wisdom is known of its fruit. Can a good tree bring forth good fruit? Just saying. I look at it this way. 97% to 99% of the American church believes this and according to polls 98% of professing Christians in America do not share their faith regularly (see Way of the Master for some polls). Hmm. Sounds lukewarm to me and many are going to be spit out rather than caught up in some pre-trib rapture. The only hot spots in the world for Christianity is where they are currently massively persecuted and where the prosperity gospel hasn't corrupted them yet. Africa is now being corrupted in some parts by the prosperity preachers lying to them to have their better life now or come to Jesus to get some goodies. anyhow, I'm glad the Lord opened my eyes after 30+ years of following this teaching. I never studied it out and that is why I just accepted it as it sounded good and true until I realized they teach with eisogesis with bad hermeneutics. Just think about it, one of the four main founders of this movement taught there was FOUR gospels. This is total heresy. One was a Jesuit. One was rejected by three very godly men and Spurgeon even took out whole newspaper page ads warning the Scottish of Darby's teaching. Larkin made the Darby charts and was into ghosts. Do you honestly think the Holy Spirit would use men like this to start a teaching? Men that the apostles and early church fathers would have kicked out and been named heretics?

@@sacredcowtipper1378 I strongly suggest you wait for the future 3rd temple in Jerusalem as given in Rev 11 2. Good luck

@@sacredcowtipper1378 The key to the end times is about 2000 years ago Jesus started the church age. This age will end soon and then a short time will pass and God will start to deal with Israel in the Middle East when Daniels 70th week will start. What happened on that day at the Mount of Olives? The truth is Luke 21 was not given at the same time as Matthew 24. Luke 21 was given earlier that day at the temple site when they were pointing at stones (Luke 21 37). When Jesus gave Luke 21, only Luke 21 12 to Luke 21 23 was for that generation. Luke 21 24-28 is future and so is Luke 21 29-36. Luke 21 24-28 will be fulfilled in the future 42 months from an event at the future 3rd temple in Jerusalem as given in Rev 11 2. It will be at a time of 2 witnesses and the 2nd woe or 6th trumpet judgment. Luke 21 29-36 is an end time generation that will see a Fig Tree bud. And when that happens the kingdom of God is near. That end time generation will see all fulfilled. Meaning from the persecution of the early church to 70 AD to a Fig Tree bud to the 2nd coming. Later at night time on the Mount of Olives new questions were asked about the ending of Luke 21. The disciples had already heard Luke 21 earlier that day. So Matthew 24 is questions about the ending of 2 ages in the end times. The same end time generation of Matthew 24 will see "all these things" fulfilled. Everything in Matthew 24 from the Fig Tree getting tender and ready to bare fruit. When that happens that day of the pretrib rapture is near the door. No man knows the day or the hour. No man will know if that event will be at evening time or the midnight watch or when the rooster crows or at dawn. Then a short time will pass and Daniels 70th week will start. The end time generation will see the beginning of sorrows with the first 4 seals. And an event called the abomination of desolation midtrib. That will start persecution and martyrdom of saints from all nations for 42 months. 3 1/2 years later the world will see the 2nd coming immediately after the tribulation. The date of the 2nd coming will be known by millions 7 biblical years before the event. The 2nd coming will be at evening time in Israel. Zech 14 7.

@@sacredcowtipper1378 with 30 years of studying this, why don't you tell everyone about Rev chapter 11 in the past. With 30 years You should know who the 2 witnesses were. The date they were killed. The date 3 1/2 days later they were resurrected. And any witnesses that saw them resurrect and 1/10 of Jerusalem collapsed and 7000 killed in an earthquake the day they resurrected.

Jeromulan - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 1 Corinthians 15, 1‭-‬11

Getting into pre trip and pre wrath does not matter my brother all that matters is that you are ready. If the Lord comes pre wrath be ready is he comes pre trip be ready all that matters is that we are ready.

Good for you.

whats the different???

redeemed66 The resurrection of the dead occurs when Jesus comes back and gathers his elect from the earth. This is the trumpet blast that Matthew 24: 31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 describe. This trumpet call signals to the angels to harvest Christians from the earth. As soon as this trumpet call is heard on the earth, the rapture takes place. This is the last trumpet that Christians will hear before they receive their resurrected bodies.

I believe The trumpets and bowls are Gods wrath The first 3/4 of the tribulation are Not specifically Gods wrath So we are taken up and out before Gods wrath

3/4 Trib???

1/3? 5/8?

The pre-wrath rapture comes approx. mid-trib. Daniel 12:12, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." From day one of the trib until the abomination, Antichrist in the temple, is 1,260 days add 75 days of Great Tribulation of the saints, the fifth seal which is two waves of martyrdom equals 1,335 days. Lest Jesus cut those days {of martyrdom} short no FLESH would have survived. Then comes the sixth seal, Christ's second coming and the rapture. Matt. 24:29 Then the tribulation is over and then "His wrath came." The remaining time God pours out His wrath on unbelievers,{bowl judgements} as we are not appointed unto wrath.

@john doe, before the seven bowls. Whenever that is in the Tribulation. Don’t try to pin-point it.

@@Ben-yosef For your consideration. The rapture comes after the Antichrist demands all to take his mark and to worship him. 75 days after he comes into the temple claiming to be God will be the rapture, at the sixth seal, moments prior to God's wrath. 1,260 days { 3.5 yrs} plus 75 days is 1,335 days. Daniel 12:12, speaks of the rapture, the catching away, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

Do you know how many martyrs there have been throughout history. What is the difference in facing the Antichrist? Martyrdom is martyrdom...what's the difference by whom it comes by? How about those who were beheaded by ISIS a few years back? I fail to see how it will be any different... I won't speak for you brother, but if ppl fear martyrdom then they love their earthly lives too much. The following verse context is right before Jesus went to the cross and was speaking of His death. We all need to ponder and consider deeply these things. God bless. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. John 12:25‭-‬26 ESV

when the belivers die, and the rapture has not occured yet.

There's no "personal rapture". That's a nice thing to say to someone dying. It clearly says those asleep in Christ (dead) will rise first then we who are still alive will follow them to be caught up into the sky to forever be in Christ. So those who die in Christ before the rapture simply sleep until He takes us all.

@@bryantweedy7163 yes there is,(john14;1-4)jesus clearlt uses the word you (personal)and not plural them or body or church.

@@bryantweedy7163 No. If you believe that then you basically have to say Jesus lied to the thief on the cross beside Him, or about Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom (which isn't a parable when he says "there was a rich man" right off the start, and the many other references too it between the OT through the NT.

@@felipekennedy3135 read the verses before to see context. Clearly we can't go now, but afterward. ❝Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.❞ -John 13: 36 (KJV)

I never understand why people throw out this "we aren't going to be a bloody bride" idea in support of pre-tribulation rapture. Can you name one prophet, one apostle, one group of believers in the entire Bible that did not suffer hardship and persecution at the hands of evil? Many even being executed! Even our Lord was whipped, beaten, spat on and executed by evil men. And you think "that's not for me! My God wouldn't let that happen to me!" I don't think you've been paying attention. And that's what concerns me most about that attitude. It shows a level of immaturity and weakness. There are many accounts of believers in the past singing songs of worship as they were being led to their deaths! How weakminded and self centered we have become to now insist that God won't allow us to go through persecution because why? We are somehow better than the ancient church?

Amber Reinke Sorry to be the bad news here, but please consider the suffering that Jesus went through. He was the son of God! Consider the suffering of the Apostles, crucified, some upside down! We, as the church, need to be ready to take on more suffering that anyone else, until the very end. We are called to keep faith under the worst adversity. We are not supposed to be "happy little people", we are supposed to love, even when being tortured, just as Christ did. We will get the highest rewards in Heaven, but we will have to endure to the end. No free pass. Sorry.

Well said!

The antichrist will beat his bride... not God...

@@notallgarbage It is called God's wrath - NOT the antichrist's wrath

@Ναζωραῖος in relation to the two witnesses, when will Christ return? Seven years after they appear correct? Three and a half years after they are killed? Pre-tribulation - believes Jesus is telling the truth that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, but God only. Mid-tribulatio / Pre-wrath believe Jesus is a liar and that neither man nor angels can do simple math to calculate within hours or a day or two of when Christ will return. Post-tribulation / full-wrath also believe Jesus is a liar as well as the scripture that states we are not appointed unto wrath. Either mid or post that believe Jesus to be a liar, have no Savior because lying is a son, and Jesus could not be there perfect sinless sacrifice for the world.

@@Rood67 That isn't what pre-wrath Christians believe. Please don't misrepresent someone's case, and then call them unsaved because of a position they don't hold. You claim pre-wrath believes Jesus is a liar. That simply isn't true. They believe that at some point in the last 3.5 years, likely towards the end of it, Jesus will take the living believers up. What hour will he do it? No clue. What exact day? No clue. If that is what they believe, in what way do they believe Jesus is a liar?

How come there is no mention of the church after chapter 4 in Revelation ?

Mark Anthony why doesn’t it clearly say that the church was raptures away in the beginning of chapter 4? Most of the times church is used in revelation it is referring to a single congregation. The word not being used doesn’t mean the church isn’t there. Assuming it is gone just because the word isn’t used is like assuming God isn’t in the book of Esther

@@christopherwalls4337 Did the Bible say anywhere that Jesus Christ had a laugh now and then with his disciples? So did he ? Of course he did ,because the Bible says that He was like us but without sin. We laugh...so He laughed also. But because I didn't see written anywhere "...and He laughed when he heard..." do I go around telling people to not laugh because Jesus never laughed ?Just because the Bible doesn't expressly say something using the exact word or words we are looking for doesn't mean that we should reject something. This is the problem as I see it regarding these "controversial topics" that are not controversial at all, people have become completely incapable of reading their Bibles carefully, and using all the parts that address the topic or have a bearing on the meaning of a passage...and...they have no capacity to think these things through. I don't mean they are stupid...I just mean that they have never exercised their mind to think. The mind is like your muscles, the more you learn to use it and train it , the clearer your thinking becomes. So back to our discussion...if no single church is mentioned, and the church in general isn't mentioned...where is it ? If martyrs from the Tribulation are mentioned, and if it is said that at some point their "number will be complete" ...and in another part of Revelation it says that the false prophet sets up an image of the anti-christ that can even speak and cause ALL who do not have the mark and refuse to worship the image to be killed...then what does that clearly mean when taken together ? It means that their will be people who accept Jesus Christ during the Tribulation...but not one of them survive to the end. And from this we can also make the inference that because the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin and unrighteousness, we know that despite the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit is still present in the world convicting people. If the Holy Spirit is still present in the world , convicting people of their need to repent...then what is the meaning of the passage about "that which is restraining evil, until it is taken out of the world" ? What is taken out of the world , that restrains evil ??? The Church...there can't be any other answer. See what I mean?Put the scriptures together and it becomes clear what the meanings are...and help yourself out by listening to good knowledgeable, trained teachers...ones that can explain all the different interpretations are , and which one is the correct one. When it comes to Biblical prophecy , Dr. David Hocking is one of the best...I recommend his RU-vid series on the entire books of Daniel, Revelation, and Ezekiel.

Goodman, The point is that the rapture may be misunderstood from the wedding parables that All show we don't understand them, asleep with lights out in Matt 25:5 or scorning the invitation in Matt 22:3-8. You discredit timing but God won't do anything without revealing it and your name has a timing clue from Matt 24:43--please visit Prov 7:19,20 in KJV to see the Goodman comes home at the yom kece--full moon. Passover comes on a full moon, but Goodman is on a long journey, so it's Passover a month later as provided by 9-11. Yes, Numbers 9:10,11 provides for Passover in May if Goodman isn't back in time for April. 2nd Passover is also when the Flood came--Passover timing, but 2nd spring month. The next parable says "Then..." It's the same time, 2nd Passover. Please read my comment above yours...God bless all who are seeking light from His Word.

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@CHRiS WRoCK - Narrow Path The Big Picture you paint is Biblical, true and coming soon. I just did a video on my channel on "How Long, Oh Lord?" We can know because Ps 90:12 says, "Teach us to number our days..." and Amos 3:7 says God won't do anything without revealing it" Bad translation to say no one will ever know when Christ was talking to His disciples and the Greek word, eido, means you don't understand...it's like the days of Noe or like a man traveling to a far country (provision for Passover a month later if they couldn't get back in time for 1st Passover. It;s 9-11 Num 9:10,11. Search RU-vid for Spectrum Magazine Reply to How Long Oh Lord, Total Health,

Dear Brother Jarred, Christ said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. It's HiS Word (sword of truth) that divides, based on our responses to truth. 1Cor 15:51,52 shows "we shall all be changed...at the LAST Trumpet" (7 trumpets in Revelation preceded by a huge earthquake as seen in Rev 8:5,6. Further information on timing on RU-vid--"How Long, Oh Lord?" We can know because Ps 90:12 says, "Teach us to number our days..." and Amos 3:7 says God won't do anything without revealing it" Bad translation to say no one will ever know when Christ was talking to His disciples and the Greek word, eido, means you don't understand...it's like the days of Noe or like a man traveling to a far country (provision for Passover a month later if they couldn't get back in time for 1st Passover. It;s 9-11 Num 9:10,11. Search RU-vid for Spectrum Magazine Reply to How Long Oh Lord, Total Health,

@@totalhealth8204 Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts already - and He fulfilled them to the day. What is left is the last 3 and He will fulfill them too - to the exact day, they are appointed.

Yes God Blesses

I am afraid we are still under the Law (Commandments) and need faith in Jesus Christ also. Here are two verses from the very last book of both bibles Revelations 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” and 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” also the Beast will be after commandment keepers/people of faith 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”. I am afraid we have to keep the law especially the 4th Commandment. Love to hear your thoughts on this, God bless.

Your right Ruth. Keeping the Commandments is what our Lord wants. If we love him we should keep them.

There are no dispensations. All of mankind is saved by faith for without faith it is impossible to please Him.

What do you actually mean by “no dispensations” mkmason2002? Yes you should obviously have faith BUT still adhere to the commandments, love the Father with all your soul, heart and mind and love thy neighbour as yourself. It’s not just a matter of faith.

@Albert Pepper You sound pretty angry and nasty - do you really care which linguistic version of his name somebody uses? What an abitrary and rude assertment; you clearly don't have Yeshua or Jesus in you if that's your worries; whichever version rocks your socks. A lot of people also use Yahweh instead of "God" - is that too complex for you as well? "Prayers don't get answered any faster.." - straw manning off the bat, really? Where would you even get the idea that is why somebody uses that name as opposed to Jesus? That's his name in Hebrew to English. Jesus is Greek to English. Why do you got to use Jesus? Father God knows who you're talking too you don't need too try so hard to use the name in the Bible specifically. It sounds like you're the one in hopes your prayers will be answered faster, really weird. I hope I don't ever run into Christians like you haha, What a poor display of intelligence.

@@fallen1world294 Amen - I wonder if Albert has the Holy Spirit living inside of him? If he does, then he has definitely grieved Him with his words. Believers are told to curb their mouths just like a horse needs to be reined in when it gives its head and bolts! We must be kind to each other in word, action and thought. I love the name Y'shua having some Jewish roots myself, but mainly because when He lived on earth, that is what He was called, 'the salvation of Yah!' His mother, brothers, sisters and friends would have known Him by Y'shua and I use that name along with Jesus, it does not matter, Abba knows who His Son is!

@Albert Pepper You are very rude Albert. Nobody is getting more spiritual than anybody else. How do you know that Darrell is not Jewish? Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter? You need to read the book of Colossians 2:16 'So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths' There is liberty in Christ to celebrate the Sabbath, the High and Holy Days - please do not condemn or bad mouth believers for their liberty. Very sad.

Love!

@@fallen1world294 Wow! That was a scorcher. If Jesus wanted us to call Him Yeshua He would have used that name in the Bible, but He didn't, not once. The Bible is clear about using His name Jesus, "That at the NAME OF JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;..."

I agree, I was also raised pre-trib. But when you compare Matthew 24/mark 13/ luke 21 whit revelation 6 it all connects. Jesus is describing the first 6 seals in order. 2thessalonians 2 destroys a pre-trib rapture. I’m curious, who do you think is the he who restrains in 2 thess 2:7?

@macro343 Hi, i am unsure but he cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will still be people coming to faith during the Wrath of God period. Blessings

no, its not the holy spirit i think its the antichrist himself, but the human man. revelation 17:8-11 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that WAS, and is NOT, and YET is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: FIVE are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come (human antichrist); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (deadly wound) 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, (antichrist satan himself) and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. revelation 13:3-4 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? so the human antichrist had to die/taken out of the way first and then satan can/will reveal himself in the temple. @@ronaldlim8224

@macro343 this is interesting, thanks for sharing. Will study further. Blessings

_"...the Rapture takes place before the Seventh Seal. This is confirmed by the great multitude in heaven mentioned in Revelation 7"_ It sure does, before the 1st seal is even opened! *Rev 7:13,14* states, "...What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which CAME OUT of great tribulation." Notice the words, "CAME OUT" in *vs 14* because this speaks of a # of people that's not static. In the Greek it reads "COMING FROM". In o/words, the number continues to increase. The events in this chpt take place DURING the tribulation, & there will be more _CONTINUING_ to come from/come out of the tribulation & the *#* will grow. This alone would refute the notion that the rapture of the CHURCH takes place in *Rev 7,* for the CHURCH doesn't "leg into" heaven one by one as they're killed off during the tribulation, leaving some who might endure till the end of it. The body of Christ is not split/broken up...we go up *TOGETHER* as a whole. There's nothing to be confused about when reading *Matt 24,* for the CHURCH is not mentioned in the text. All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*

It's a bit late. But I read 2Thess 2 and it disproves mid-trib/pre-wrath and post-trib rapture.

It’s pretty clear. The Day of the Lord and our gathering to him will not happen until the falling away and the Man of Sin is revealed. The Bible is very clear and easy to understand when we view it through a lens of wanting Gods truth and not our own biases.

@@samanthac8862 Sure, God's Word is clear and easy to understand. So when will the man of sin is REVEALED? So let's define "reveal." Reveal - ἀποκαλύπτω (Strong's #601 - Verb - apokalupto - ap-ok-al-oop'-to ) - signifies "to uncover, unveil" (apo, "from," kalupto, "to cover) The objective use is that in which something is presented to the senses, sight or hearing, as, referring to .....(m) the Lawless One, 2 Thessalonians 2:3,6,8 ." (Vine's Dictionary) After the trib, the man of sin will already be defeated and together with the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire(Rev 19:19-20). So obviously, that's not the revealing of the man of sin. Therefore rapture cannot be post-trib based on 2Thess 2:3. Concl.: Post-trib debunked. In the middle of the tribulation, the beast will already have killed the two witnesses, his image is set up and his mark is forced on people(Rev 11:7; 13). This too, is not the revealing(presenting of the man of sin to the world "the first time." So again based on 2Thess 2:3, rapture can not be mid-trib. In Rev 6:2, which to me the beginning of the trib, a rider on a white horse rides out conquering and bent on conquest. Will this be the revealing of the man of sin? I doubt, because as evil as he is, he's still human and cannot just pop up out of nowhere and suddenly assume power. So before Rev 6:2, he must have been revealed. Nah, 2Thess 2:3, speaks more for a pre-trib rapture than for the other 2 views on the timing of the rapture.

@@JesseMgala I agree with you. The AntiChrist must be revealed/uncovered/emerge just prior to our being gathered to him. In all of my study I’m seeing that the rapture could very well take place somewhere just after this takes place when the world falls away from the true God because of the Man of Sin.

John's 14th Chapter

+Tor Lenoir -- 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air*: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

@@scotthull2141 Thanx

@@TheMistysFavs Thank u

@@TheMistysFavs But that passage refers to the second coming of christ. The dead in Christ will rise first. This is a group resurrection.

colleenepage the point of the tribulation is to bring more people to Jesus

It’s interesting how when the bowls were poured out one by one, it’s repeated “and they did not repent...”. That means NONE of these unbelievers repented! Clearly all believers were raptured prior to God’s wrath and only unbelievers were left to be destroyed. But even then, God gives them opportunity to cry out to Him but they refused stubbornly.

Tribulation has always been against the people of God. It's not God against his people. Unbelievers dont suffer tribulation. They suffer the wrath of God. Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath comes after the rapture, which is after the tribulation

@@emmanuelsimpson1751 Ok So what is your definition of “the wrath of God” then? Surely it’s the 7 bowls But would you include the 7 trumpets too? The 7 seals also?

@@lynb4043 nope. The seals are not. The trumpets and bowls are.even at the 5th seal, the saints who were martyred before the tribulation ended were asking Jesus when he was gonna pour out his wrath. If the seals were already Gods wrath why were they still asking? And Jesus told them to wait because their fellow saints were still on earth. They had to be killed as they were. At the 6th seal, sun and moon went dark and the kings of the earth said "for the wrath of the lamb has come". Which means prior to this time, it wasnt wrath. God wasnt doing anything to the unbelievers. They were eating and drinking, having fun, given into marriage while the saints were being slaughtered. Until something caught the attention of the unbelievers. That's God almighty coming on the scene with his wrath. Prior to this time, just tribulation. After the 6th seal, we see the 7 trumpets and bowls are dramatic events against unbelievers. That's the wrath

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@Pavel Bee Then present your argument! That statement was from a well known pastor and author of "Dispensational Truth" Clarence Larkin. I'm pretty sure that whatever you would render will not make the reasonable sense. He was pretty emphatic about letting the scriptures say what they say, and not what we think it's saying or want it to say. Read the scriptures again!

@Pavel Bee okay, you said "false statement"about nine months ago. Why not back up your claim?

Every interpretation is a private one unless you would call the canons and catechisms public interpretation.

Loved those scriptures you posted :))) Absolutely the rapture (in plain sight, yet hidden)

lol

+Jason G -- That is about the 2nd coming to the EARTH of Christ.. During the Rapture, He comes in the clouds NOT touching the earth.. You're not rightly dividing the two separate events.

@@TheMistysFavs , we've all heard this... you are just repeating what you've been taught. 1st The rapture verses talk about the dead being raised. Have you noticed? 1 Thess 4:15-17 and 1 Cor 15:52. So, you have to realize that, to be precise, we should not be talking about a rapture... BUT A RESURRECTION!! The bible is clear about the number of resurections, and the timing of the FIRST resurection. Read Revelation. 2nd 1 Cor 15:52 says that the rapture (cough*, resurrection) happens at the last TRUMP. What's a trump?....... WHAT'S A TRUMP?..... A trump, according to the dictionary, is "a sounding of a trumpet". So, when is the LAST SOUNDING OF A TRUMPET, in Revelation? You could go read Rev 10 and Rev 11. It is the last and 7th Trumpet, blown by 7th angel... And the Lord comes in the air in all power and glory and gathers is elects from the 4 winds...

@@TheMistysFavs no... the 2 verses talk about the same event. The descriptions are almost identical, and differs slightly. I gave you a huge hint, about the NUMBER of resurrections. Revelation clearly says "this is the 1st resurrection..."... if you place a rapture (and therefore a resurrection, the verses say "the deads will be raised), you are adding a resurrection before the 1st resurrection... Listen sister. The pre-trib rapture requires a change of dispensation to exist. What I am telling you is, the pretrib rapture theory NEEDS DISPENSATIONALISM to even have a remote chance to appear on anyone's mind. Dispensationalism is a human logical frame put on top of the Word of God. 2 Tim 2:15 tells you to rightly divide... it only means to put stuff into CONTEXT when you read the bible, or preach, or teach... To take that verse and divide the bible into dispensations is to take it 1 step too far... and it is that step that allows that bogus pre-tribulation RESURRECTION (deceitfully called a rapture, to take your attention away from THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEADS). Sister, ask God to help you in this subject matter. I will pray that whoever of you and me is wrong, to be helped by God. I only want the truth... I am certain I am right on this on sister, but I will ask anyway that God fixes me, if I'm wrong. I will pray for you as well. God bless.

Mary Mclocke Why not take Isaiah’s advice; precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little..... instead of your pre tribulation “rapture” lenses whilst reading the Word.....you may just change your mind (but I know you won’t.)

+Aerodave1 -- NOT what Jesus said. He said that we will have tribulation *in this life* which means we will have problems, troubles in THIS life.. He was not talking about the "Great Tribulation". Your exergeses of Jesus' use of "tribulation" in that verse is incorrect. As far as the rest, THIS: " Just like Moses, Noah, Abraham, and almost every other major figure in the bible had to endure a period or time of tribulation BEFORE being saved so will we!" --100% *falsehoods* There was NO Salvation BEFORE Christ, and those older men in the Bible didn't go through any such "tribulation" as this earth will see one day soon.. Closest was Noah, and Noah and his family is actually what is called a "type" of the Rapture in the Old Testament.. God saved Noah and his family, God saved Lot, God will save we who believe. We ARE NOT subject to wrath - and ALL 7 YEARS are God's wrath..regardless of it being called the "Tribulation".

Mary Mclocke I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. In every instance, the Bible figure went THROUGH a time of trouble before they were saved. NONE of the figures were saved before they went through their trial. Look at Job, look at Jonah, look at David. The Bible repeats itself over and over that we are saved through trial and tribulation. God is preparing us for the trials we must go through first before being saved. Just as His church will.

Mary Mclocke Also, there is NO 7 year tribulation period mentioned in the Bible. That is a recent invention. We have one life of trials and then we die and wait in the grave to go to Heaven at the second coming. That is what the Bible says.

L. Maynard - 1 Corinthians 15, 50-58; 1 Thess 4, 13-18

well said, Enoch was removed before the flood! that was the 1st evidence of repeat rapture pre-TRIB theme thru scripture...Lot was "taken up" escaping utter destruction at Sodom, 2nd evidence! should i continue?

jay hill yes amen to that I learn this from a big bible scholar from the states and it’s so easy to understand, I also understand that between rupture and the tribulation will be a gap for a few years, in this period of time many people will come to Christ after the preaching of the 2 witnesses and the 144 k Jews, what do you think, that’s when the people under the altar will ask how long because they were told to wait a little so I think when antichrist comes many will die for their faith for not taking the chip or going along with the one world religion, please think and answer, I’m asking because I know you have the right vision about everything I really like to know your ideas

Do you ? I have gone checking and I don't,but I do read about them in Revelation 7.

@Petty Mey see rev 4. The elders and their crowns, the trib starts in rev 6. The saints in rev 7 join the assembly, these are the wheat harvest "out of great tribulation" from rev 14:16. Two harvests precede us, the first fruits barley, Mt 27:52-53, the barley "the dead in Christ shall rise first" in 1 these 4:13, the US, 1 these 4:17. More harvests follow the wheat, the grapes, then the gleanings at Christs return with his saints. 1 these 3:13, rev 19.

Dan9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel in Matt24. This occurs in the middle of the 7. Which means Jesus was talking about this same 7 year timeline

kevin12553 yeah I’m afraid of heights but I’m soo looking foreword for the catch away 😀

+james knox -- #1 -- The "Great Falling Away" is falling away from the TRUTH...it's the great apostasy AND it is going on NOW.. You'd have to be totally blind to not see it. #2.. The Pre Trib Rapture is NOT a "theory", it is God's own word.. WHY would you risk yourself being left behind, calling the Blessed Hope some BLASTED hope and calling God a liar??

Mary Mclocke, I think it would be cruel of God to take Christ followers out of the earth, then torture those "left behind" with no hope of redemption! Those who are alive and remain at the end of the 7 years of hell on earth, will reign with Him during the 1000 years. The "pre-trib" doctrine is heresy, plain and simple.

@@jimmyknox3342 --Every word of the Bible is breathed by the Spirit of Christ and He is not a liar. Anyone who rejects the Savior had a choice..nothing cruel about it. "Pre Trib" doctrine is NOT heresy, and you'll find that out one day soon enough. It is throughout the entire Bible. You WANT for it to be heresy, but sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you reject Christ and His free gift (His death at Calvary paid for it) then you are choosing to face Antichrist. Everyone has a CHOICE.. It shouldn't be difficult. Jesus HIMSELF speaks of the Rapture, BESIDES the Bible being Spirit inspired..Calling Him a LIAR? That's never a wise thing to do.

Mary Mclocke, as far as MY being left behind that is impossible as I have a personal relationship with Him! He is not so cruel as to damn a person for a difference in interpretation. Don't make my God smaller than He is, your god sounds like Allah and his 2 daughters. My God juggles subatomic particles, and still has time to guide my steps. Your God gets mad at people who misunderstand him. And appears to enjoy it. Who DO you worship?

Mary Mclocke, I pray my God makes Himself known to you, through the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus! Amen!

lynn curran - 1 Corinthians 15, 50-58; 1 Thess 4, 13-18