Well it was the episode that had some very intense character development for Quark. It showed that deep, deep...DEEEEEEP under that weaselly exterior, he did have some courage nuggets squirreled away.
@@turbopokey more that quark knows the actual price of everything. It was either bet it all on the slim chance he'd win, or just die. Quark always pays the appropriate price for stuff.
They say klingon women are equal to men,, and strong khaless and the heart and warrior godess blah blah blah BUT WOMEN MAY NOT SERVE ON THe HIGH COUNCIL
Thats like dissarming a bomb. On one hand you can walk out with your head held high and go about your life proud. On the other you'll be laminated all over the place. In the immortal words of Worf "Today is a good day to die".
The best explanation I came up with in my head canon was that women couldn't serve on the council under K'mPec, but had been allowed to serve prior to his leadership. The most obvious reason I could think of was that K'mPec had been rejected by possibly several high ranking women, and got back at them by not allowing them to be a part of his council. After Gowron took control, he changed the rules to allow women to serve once more (mostly to gain the favor of some powerful houses he needed to stay in control) and Martok continued that line of thinking. There may be some actual info out there that could confirm or debunk that, but it seemed reasonable to me at the time.
Thank you. Everyone is so eager to blame writers and new shows and such and such. Instead of complaining, you thought of a way in which it could work. Things, people, and policies change over time. Of course policies from two hundred years ago would be different, and evolve over time
@@nicksanchez3796 point of note, in undiscovered country the klingons were in crisis. the situation may have caused a need for a quick change of chancellor. so his daughter who had been part of the administration behind the proposed treaty (making her the most qualified to see it done) was elevated regardless of normal policies. besides not being normally allowed on the council does not say it never happens. for a very long time daughters could not rule nations... yet there are a great many examples of queens and the like. often after the queen passes the crowns go back to the male heir for the next couple generations (obviously less so now)
Maybe the chancellor is simply whoever has the military strength to defend their title, but council membership has actual rules? (Sorta like the difference between the emperor and a senator in Ancient Rome. There were rules for who could be a senator, but the emperor was whoever had the might to defend their title.)
I was going to quip "Klingon females have whatever rights the writers say they have at a given time", but you really made these apparently-contradictory plot points _actually work in-universe_ with this! Good on ya for pulling this off!
A couple things to keep in mind here: 1) We're dealing with several hundred years difference in time periods here. A lot can change in that amount of time. 2) Klingon laws are...flexible...at times. The Chancellor serves as a more or less king, elected by the council who are more or less a group of leaders of major families. Semi-feudal society. Exceptions to the law are kind of a normal thing. 3) Klingon laws themselves are often intermixed with tradition. And tradition often serves as unwritten law, even in modern society.
Thats a longwinded way of saying these shows are as inconsistent as the weather in the American South lol That being said, I agree with the above additional points lol
Honestly it reminds me very much of the source material (feudal Japan), especially with women. Rules were all over the place and it really depended on who was the boss and if his boss was over the shoulder. They absolutely had female samurai, but it wasn’t really normal, though common enough to have some training and combat doctrine. For instance it was favored to teach women to use the naginata (pole-sword) because it was expected to remove or compensate for the advantage of reach, mass, and strength held by a male samurai.
Yet again, it's interesting on a meta narrative level to see how the concept of klingons evolved (and involved) over the years. Star trek writers just can't make up their minds it seems🤣
Gorkon's daughter had to have received the "special dispensation" that Grillka sought thus she became the head of Gorkon's house and could become chancellor.
Probably because Gorkon had no male heir, so Azetbur became head of his house. Her father's allies on the High Council made sure she ascended to the chancellery.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Considering how he felt about them when his son died, I would say they were indeed rumors. I have no doubt that Kirk injected new blood into several species, but I think Klingon was one of them.
I don't see any real inconsistencies. This mirrors human history (and the current clash of laws and traditions). Women are probably not allowed to serve on the council owing to tradition and some laws. But in exceptional circumstances they can do so anyway. And the Chancellor can do what he wants. This is very similar to various reigning queens in very patriarchal societies and also female leaders in authoritarian regimes.
I get the feeling that Gowron had ideas of forcibly changing Council rules with a few bat'leths to the throat to get K'Ehleyr in. That would have been a fun storyline to play out, had she taken him up on the offer.
That female Klingon's reaction at 1:10 was out of place and spliced in. Not only that, it was replayed several more times. In the actual episode, they actually went along with the jokes and jibes.
If you seek consistency, it is present in all of this. Whenever the Klingons needed to be vilified then they discriminated against women. Whenever the intention was to glorify them as a proud warrior culture then it was the "female Klingon heart" that supposedly was "beating stronger". The only thing we learn from this is that Trek has always had woke undercurrents. It's precisely the same with the Ferengi. They weren't allowed to have any depth of character, until they put women in charge.
Though even with them there must be some kind of barrier, as they tried to use Duras's son to challenge Gow'ron rather than challenging him themselves. They seemed to lead their house, but the chancellorship was still not in their reach.
Yeah it was a little inconsistent but at least the i consistency was always for something. In house of quark it was at the service of quark having to become the head of a klingon house and... I mean... c'mon, thats justification enough. LOL. With Lersa and B'tor, they wouldn't have been nearly as kraft a villains if they could just run for office. Lol.
It's not that they're a bad design. But more that they don't look like Klingons in the rest of the lore. Had they been some sub-species of primitive Klingons it would had made more sense. Even the Romulans and Remans route could have worked. Where the Remans apparently branched from the Vulkan-Romulan schism. Where the Remans don't look like either. But some Remans are telepathic like Vulcans, unlike Romulans.
I remember Klingon women were supposed to be equal to men, except that they couldn't lead a house or be part of the high council. But then there is that weird contradiction in undiscovered country where, after the death of the chancellor, his daughter seems to "inherit" the position.
Well, Undiscovered Country takes place almost a century prior to the events seen in TNG. Things seem to have changed between those time periods. A lot.
Actually, with close to none information on that matter, I always "liked" that on the klingons. Having different reactions and different ways of thought or even different or strange political turns, I always thought it gaves them more credibility. Like human do nowadays. If you ask about the right of women in Earth, you will hear very different opinions depending on who you're asking that question. While that's not exactly a good thing, I liked it in the way it gaves them more personality as a race. Not everyone agrees. I mean, one of the things I loved on DS9 was Nog that showed us not every Ferengi is a greedy pig, and that their society has pollitical turmoil with some ferengi woman revolting against their invisible rights. We at learned at least something about the Trill and their weird society, we see the less light and more deep side of the federation pollitics with it's own dark and shadows... I hate that all of the individuals of one race act the same just as I hate the fact that 95% of the starfleet seems to be formed by humans, with 75% of the ships having american names and the 25% european. I mean... What about the USS Surak, the USS Shran, the USS Chalice of Rixx... We really need more diversity on starfleet, and I mean Aliens.
The fans were always more attentive to consistency, and MUCH better at world building. The problem with writing a show like Trek is sometimes a writer has a great idea, ONLY for it to be shot down by a.... Canon? [Rim shot and a cymbal] UGH,,, I hate myself for that pun. Moving right along.... ANYWAY, Canon is a double edged sword, on one side it creates a rich and dimensional world, cohesive history, interesting cultures and compelling back stories. The other edge, and the one that tends to cause the most damage is it hamstrings the creativity of the writers. It behooves [who called in the cavalry?] the writers to spend far more time than they actually have researching background for a script they have to knock out in a week. In most cases they just hope nobody will notice, BUT when you are talking a fan-base like the Trekies, the Trekkers, and just "The Fans" they are NOT going to let continuity errors slide and they WILL call out the writers and producers on them. IF they find themselves having to do it too often in a given season, then accusations fly that the writers and producers "Have no respect for the source material" Some times that's VERY true too. But SOME TIMES, it's just someone trying to tell a ripping yarn, and not getting too hung up on the details. These were all good scripts, sure they didn't hold up to the microscope of Fandom, BUT they were GOOD stories.
It's a stretch, but I can kind of accept that 0:49 explains it all. Klingon women are excluded from being cultural or political leaders by default. Extraordinary or exceptional circumstances crop up from time to time, though. The decision-makers be like "we don't know what the Klingon fluk to do, here! Just let the broad have the job!"
Klingon Women on a Star Ship or in battle are treated as equal's. On Kronos its never fully fleshed out but it does seem the great houses of each family there are almost run by the women due to the men off world chasing glory.
Orcs. Well dressed ones, at that. Lets just say the writers are ... confused. Also, totally unable to watch old Star Treks and stay within the lines of accepted culture.
Sounds like there are vastly different views on women among the Klingons. But that's okay. Klingons have a rather fluid sense of honor. Never remains consistent. Except they like it when someone dares to shout at them.
I don't understand the inconsistency considering trek has always been VERY consistent when it comes to the relationships between Klingon men and women. The women have always been portrayed as dominant figures who often match or exceed the fury of their male partners. women serve as warriors, hold all the same values, and rarely show any sort of subservice to the males. Klingons also value honor and glory above all else, which the women are more than capable of achieving on their own. This means that the ability to obtain social currency and elevate your reputation is open to both genders. Klingon men also take a huge role in raising and teaching their children, implying that child rearing is at least an equal partnership. Why would any writer decide that women would be anything less than equal to the men in governance? in fact, wouldn't it make more sense for Klingon society to be matriarchal? all the strongest male leaders would always be out seeking glory in battle, so the attrition rate would be horrible. even if you never watched an episode, a good writer would be able to see that those power vacuums would be quickly filled by just as many motivated females regardless of social norms (and in many cases, this has been the case when the writing is strong)
I'd like to theorize that that is how Klingons originally looked like before using gene splicing to make them appear to be more human like it was shown in the original series.
@@MultiTimelady The showrunners wiped out the pervious cannon. The Bakula Enterprise series was the first Earth contact with Kliingons and it predates Discovery in the timeline. It's obvious Glenn Hetrick was given too much freedom with the makeup design.
So to keep it simple, Klingons are patriarchal to SOME degree. Women are allowed to be warriors and hold high military rank like males, however fir politics the males rule, there are some rules that give enough authority to females within Houses, but only a male can lead a House or serve on the High Council, I assume only 24 Great Houses ever exist with Minor Houses either having no political sway or swearing fealty to a Great House, females only lead a House under special curcumstances and become Chancellor under certain conditions, L’rell thanks to Starfleet’s bombs basically held a gun to the head of the entire Empire, “make me leader or our homeworld blows up. Azetbur is daughter to Chancellor Gorkon, he was assassinated and as she took charge an no one challenged her she led the Empire in rebuilding and forming the alliance with the Federation. I assume she stayed in power for a time due to being the only one who even had any idea what the fuck to do after ST6. Otherwise we don’t know of any other female Chancellors. So in simple they have equal rights as warriors and choosing their own path until you get to the politics where males have the authority unless special circumstances are met.
Yes unfortunately Klingon women are equals in some ways but not in others. They can only take a position a male usually has in an emergency situation temporarily or use whatever male they can find to keep what they have. But at least they have it much better than Ferengi females.
Notes: In New Trek's defense, Star Trek is consistently inconsistent, especially on Klingons. One thing it has going for it is language. For the first time, the actors speaking Tłiņon are actually doing it right. See, before, the actors were always English speakers unfamiliar with the weird phonemes of Tłiņon, so they used English approximations. It sounds weird to us because most haven't heard real Tłiņon. Even a proper spelling of the name is currently throwing you off.
True women do not serve on the council but they have been special circumstances to allow them on the council. No female Klingon can run a house but they have been special dispensations so that they can. Klingon females cannot be the head of a house or clam without getting remarried but it has happened.
It's like, they have a culture that places men over women, but at the same time respect capability and strength of will and that can trump their cultural views, even when it comes to the highest positions in their society.
