The Rise and Fall Of Paper Mario 

‘This series doesn’t need a story’ Meanwhile the Japanese title: “Mario STORY”

> plays the mario text rpg story games > gets mad that there's text my brother in christ why are you even here

if you think SPM had a weak story your snorting glue.

Super paper mario not having a good story???? I actually think it has the best story of all paper marios😅

my brother in paper mario, you're being hugely reductionist in claiming that people just hate the post-TTYD games due to not being TTYD.

"People only hate the new games because they aren't TTYD!" Fans loved Super Paper Mario. Mind you, that had the unfair advantage of being a good game.

How did you manage to not understand the complaints about being Too Papery were because of the fact the original games were just paper as an aesthetic instead of the fundamental material of the world? Nobody in 64 and TTYD are actually Paper, stuff like the transformations in TTYD are curses and can't be done by anyone normally. Making everything genuinely about paper and having realistic arts tools is entirely different from the actually original designs of the originals.

Imagine if the Metroid series shifted to where all of the enemies were nothing but Metroids, and the people complaining about that change were told “Erm, but the series is literally called Metroid. What did you expect? You're just mad that it's not Super Metroid” No, I think it's valid that people are upset that what used to be the backdrop became the entire forefront.

Imagine if Street Fighter 7 came out and it was a shooter. And it’s a GREAT game. But it’s officially SF7, and there’s no word on another 2D Street Fighter game. And then Street Fighter 8 comes out and it’s a 3D fighter. It’s fine… Got decent reviews… but it’s not what Street Fighter fans WANT. They want a 2D fighting game, so they complain. Street Fighter 9 comes out and it’s yet another 3D fighting game. By this point, the 3D Street Fighter games have a fanbase, and they’re pushing back HARD. The 2D Street Fighter fans just want things to go back to what made the series great to begin with. But the 3D Street Fighter fans just say the 2D fans are stubborn and they just want everything to be like Street Fighter 1-6. The 2D fans say “No, we want the series to evolve. We just want it to be a 2D fighting game.” The 3D fans say “It’s still a fighting game. Get over it.” And then arguments over what the series is, should be, and who are “true fans” ensue. This was a problem Nintendo created themselves. They never should’ve deviated from the leveling based RPG style. They split their own fanbase by doing it. If they wanted to make RPGs more focused on paper gimmicks, no partners, less plot, and pointless battles, they should’ve made a “Paper Yoshi” spinoff while still making traditional Paper Mario games.

The next time you decide to make a video essay like this, please for the love of god actually *talk* to people who feel differently. Don't just read a handful of complaints online, make assumptions, and then go from there. Don't just write them off as unreasonable, stubborn, or plain wrong. Don't go dismissing people's opinions as a personal fault of theirs. TALK to them. Learn why they feel as they do, and present their thoughts fairly. If you're going to be talking about their opinions, *understanding* their opinions is quite literally the least you could do. I guarantee you'll have less people annoyed with you in the comments, and your own opinions will go over better in turn.

I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Paper Jam had no original characters/locations, and was basically plagued by New Super Mario Bros. syndrome.

i guess OG Paper Mario fans are just stupid because wanting a good story, good combat, unique and charming characters, settings and writing over overbearing paper mechanics, generic character and setting; and flawed combat system is not a valid opinion i guess 🤷

I think the reason why most fans keep wanting The Thousand Year Door is because many of them had grown sick and tired of these strange innovations Paper Mario was going through when what we had before had been perfectly fine and much more preferable. And the fact Nintendo kept ignoring what the fans wanted in favor of changing what Paper Mario was, it was like a constant slap to the face. Sure, some people are willing to just move on and enjoy the newer Paper Mario games, and that's great. But not everyone is happy with what Paper Mario had become, and they long for the day they get a Paper Mario game that was like The Thousand Year Door, not necessarily The Thousand Year Door itself. And after all these years, that longing will turn into anger and bitterness. That's why the remake is so important, it brings back hope that maybe one day there will be another Paper Mario game with a brand new story with TTYD's battle mechanics.

My guy, you didn’t actually play Super Paper Mario if you think the story was somehow downgraded. It’s the best damn story a Mario game ever told. … Did you just complain about having to read? Even though you allegedly want a good story? I don’t think you gave this game a fair enough shot and frankly, you might be a hypocrite.

I feel like saying "it's not the thousand year door" is a bit of a misrepresentation. I can only speak for myself but I wanted a storyline more like the first 3, and combat like the first 2. And most importantly UNIQUE PARTNERS. That includes Super Mario RPG in that vein. Sticker star and beyond just had wayyyyy too many generic enemies that it felt like the first 3 Paper Mario games were in "the Paper Mario universe" and the latter ones were simply a paper version of the super mario verse. I missed characters like Kammy Koopa, one of the funnest villains ever. Like, why has she never come back in newer Paper Mario games? It's not that we wanted TTYD 2.0, we just wanted something in the realm of the first 2 games. It would also be nice if we didn't just get generic levels like in Sticker Star... or a particular area that took up nearly half of all gameplay time.

I’ve come to see if Super Paper Mario is respected or not Okay I can accept what was said. It ain’t the RPG game anyone expected but for what it actually is it’s actually fantastic Also it has easily the best story of any Mario game. No competition there at all, at least in my opinion

"would it have been this bad if TTYD never existed" Yes. Because SMRPG and PM64 also established that battle system and are a big part of the foundations for which the TTYD version is so beloved. If Super, despite all its valiant efforts to improve everything else and STILL retain a few aspects of it (levelling up being tied to your HP and attack power), still got flak for not having the battle system, then Sticker Star was never going to go well with the idea of completely discarding both Super's AND the first two games' efforts in favor of one of those cheap "durability" mechanics that would later be wrongly popularized by Zelda. Also, if 3D Land is their standard for "worldbuilding", then these critics need to be goddamn fired. "it could be coming back" lmao no, AlphaDream literally went bankrupt, and while Nintendo has redistributed Superstar Saga on NSO+, that's mostly because they had GBA Online on that and needed to fill that with some games (much like their desperate attempts to find old obscure NES games for NES Online. They kinda just want to fill that in to try and goad people into buying the subscription service that is way more overpriced than it should be considering the quality of the online itself fluctuates far too much). While I'd love if it genuinely came back, M&L felt like a series only AlphaDream could really do justice to. (And frankly using that as an excuse for why Origami King shouldn't get so much flak is backhanded af exactly because it's such an uncertain factor, so OK should be judged on its *own* merits; which tbf are still very much higher than the previous two games) As for the "paper" complaints... I'll be frank with you and say that, it's not about how the world LOOKS, it's about believability. While OK struggles far less with that than its two predecessors for sure, this is still an entry in a series that otherwise had fully fledged world, where all the Mario species used to be able to just BE PEOPLE, something even OK barely takes advantage of (which tbf is still far more than SS could ever say). TOK *looks* absolutely stunning for sure, but in a way, being part of a full series means that SS and CS have already done prior damage to the believability of "this is a paper world" in general, and while OK (and even CS to a lesser extent) does take more advantage of the papery world state to come up with situations hardly possible to have in a E rated game otherwise, it still likes to remind you that this world is "made of paper"; which was never true for the first three games in the franchise, where paper "mechanics" were either magic or visual gags, as they instead followed in the footsteps of SMRPG in creating a "real" Mario world, taking advantage of the fact it's a *Mario* world to make its dark themes, not the fact it's a *paper* world. I knew the instant you said "but it's not TTYD" during Super's segment that you would be jumping to OK's defense; but even as someone who liked Super, I've seen someone play the entirety of OK and was still very underwhelmed, especially as someone who dabbled in other RPGs (including Pokémon, whose mainline games made me think I wouldn't ever have a bar lower than the literal tutorial land that is Kanto; yet lo and behold, Sticker Star manages to make Pokémon Red/Blue/Green look like a Xenoblade game by comparison). OK feels like a game that WANTS to have the scale of an RPG, but is still too far into the rabbit hole of the "paper world" and overall design philosophy of SS to commit to that (so it instead abuses as many loopholes as it can, which ends up feeling... disingenuine, imo). That's not to say there are no redeeming factors to TOK at all, but to me, someone who didn't even grow up WITH TTYD (despite calling it a childhood games a couple times before; I'd say that's moreso due to its influence on Super still being clearly visible), it's somehow more underwhelming than even Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire despite very much being more grandiose. It hardly manages to hold a candle to RPGs like the Xenoblade trilogy or Tales of Vesperia. While I'm glad its redeeming factors such as chapter-based music variations and other presentational flairs (namely some parts of the art design such as the polished environments despite their differences in style) made their way into, or at least clearly had an influence on, the TTYD remake, TOK is still a game I've seen more than enough about to tell you that it ain't for me.

The biggest problem with Origami King is that its combat system wasnt a combat system. Its a puzzle system disguised as a combat system. Thats why you cant have any meaningful level ups or badges, because the goal isnt to damage enemies or reduce damage or wait for the right moment to attack or exploit weaknesses... its to solve the puzzle and one shot them. It cant have useful allies in battle, because, again, the game isnt about damage or defense or healing, its about solving the puzzle. And that wouldnt really be a huge problem, it could have been great, but puzzles repeat, and enemies respawn, so the puzzles get to be more about memorizing than solving, which means it gets super boring, fast. And that makes it more worth your time to just skip fights. IMO one simple change could have solved this. If enemies didnt respawn, each enemy would be like a puzzle that needs solved, and then it would be done. They could even incentivize clearing them all out by tracking enemies killed for 100% completion. I actually really liked Origami King, but its one of those games i dont know if I would go back and replay. I know the answers to most of the puzzles, or at least I know them well enough that i could re-learn them pretty easily. So right from the start I would just avoid every fight and end up kinda rushing the game. And for what its worth I also mostly liked Color Splash, but it kind of has the same problem, and I feel could be fixed with the same solution. That and Color Splash should have just had enemy HP instead of the weird color remaining thing.

The fall did NOT start with Super 😤 Sticker Star is at fault for that ‼️ Super was a phenomenal game

Why do people want a good game when they have all these bad games they could play?

I think you misunderstand why the games "aren't ttyd". It's not just because they aren't ttyd, it's because they don't have any battle systems, stories or characters with substance. Now the thing is, they can have 1 or 2 out of those 3, but if they dont have all 3, then yes they technically arent like ttyd. Origami king had a story, but it had a pointless battle system. The exploration is solely what carries the gameplay. Unlike paper mario 64, ttyd, and even super paper mario, the rest of the games are like a wet fart. The main point I want to make is that the battle system in origami king isn't bad because it's "unique" it's actually bad because there is no reason to initiate combat unless you're fighting a boss to progress the story. There are no rewards besides coins, there is no character progression or customization aside from gaining more HP. There is basically no reason to entertain yourself with the combat, its not made to give the player any satisfaction.

“Too much paper” is a genuine problem with Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King. They stop using paper as an artistic/gameplay sub-aspect and make it front and center and all-encompassing to a point of it being obnoxious.

20:51 Nah, I'll fight anyone on this point. Paper Jam was definitely plagued by the generic Mario sickness that was going on for a few years now. I agree that the battle mechanics are what Paper Mario fans wanted the most, but we also wanted the charm and personality that the first two titles had.

Also just looking at the enemy types 2004: 1000 year demon 2020: A Stapler

If they wanted to turn paper Mario into a puzzle action adventure game instead of an rpg then they should’ve just made a new series for that honestly

As a person who is a fan of the first three paper, Mario games I can say with confidence that if you asked me what I liked about paper Mario, I would say the gameplay and story, and I would probably not bring up the paper art style at all. It’s not that the art style is bad it’s just not what people cared for. It feels that the later ones focused a lot more on the paper gimmick of the series. It feels as if most people were not fans of “(“Paper”)” Mario, but instead PaperMario. Again Not saying the paper aesthetic is bad it’s just most people liked the first three for the not paper stuff ya know?

"Paper Jam is what fans wanted" But the world was still sterilised.

20:56 The Mario & Luigi series used to give us incredibly unique worlds, completely deviating from the status quo, like Thousand-Year Door did. Paper Jam gave us the incredibly sanitized and basic New Super Mario Bros. look. That’s why people complained about the levels.

The "too papery" argument is actually valid because that was never what the series was about. The first Paper Mario game was only called Paper Mario because it had 2D characters within a 3D environment (not unlike the Parappa The Rapper series). Outside of a few visual gags and effects it was nothing more than a cute, aesthetic art style and the characters were not literally made out of paper. In Japan, the game is actually called Mario Story. TTYD does add paperlike abilities, but they are meant to be curses and not just natural abilities that anybody can do. The later games flanderizes the whole "paper" thing and constantly beats you over the head with it. People didn't fall in love with first three Paper Mario games because of "paper". They fell in love with them because of the great and unique stories, characters and genuinely good and fun gameplay. People don't hate Color Splash and Origami King because "it's not TTYD" (Super Paper Mario is living proof that you can have a good Paper Mario game that isn't like PM64 or TTYD). They hate them because Nintendo blatantly kept ignoring what the fans want and were insistent with this new direction of the series and the newer games all feature characters that you would find in the New Super Mario Bros. games instead of unique and interesting characters like Lady Bow, Vivian, and Tippi just to name a few.

The thing about the paper elements is that in TTYD its a clear gameplay vs story segregation with them only coming in as either a visual element in puzzles or as transformations unlocked through being cursed to hammer in that these aren't natural powers. In the modern games the characters are literally canonicaly paper and everyone is scared of things of like scissors and rain. Lines in the older games like Kammy worrying about Bowser's blood pressure don't make sense if Bowser is literally paper or even 4th wall breaks like Goombario saying Goombas have "been around since you were in Super Mario Bros" doesn't make sense if the Mario in both games are different entities

Take a shot everytime he says “It’s not the Thousand Year Door” 😭

It doesn't have to be like TTYD... Super Paper Mario is mechanically different to TTYD and still works better than Sticker Stars, Color Splash and Origami king, fundamentally Paper Mario has to have a great story with unique characters not just from the Mario Universe, great partners and a combat that has a reason to fight.

Its paper MARIO, not PAPER mario; it was an artstyle plus a few gimmicks not the entire identity so yes it was too papery and it had no personality cus every character looked the same so any funny dialogue they might have said gets completely forgotten. Thousand-Year Door is praised for actually being a revolutionary piece of art that no other game can compare itself to, it is so unique and even with the different gameplay Super continued that; the modern trilogy stripped everything about the franchise and instead followed mandates that no fan actually liked; everyone vastly prefers the original trilogy for that same reason.

"Paper Mario got too papery" sounds silly on paper (HAHA GET IT?) but it's true. The first three Paper Mario games use the paper style as simply the aesthetic of the game with some visual gags to go along with the theme. But the world, characters, and story all feel like they're still part of the overarching Mario world with different villages and races of people. Starting with Sticker Star, however, they started running with this idea that the characters were all literally paper beings in a literal paper world when that was never really presented to be the case before. Even the transformations in TTYD are presented as "curses" giving you the ability to do something deemed unnatural to the world. But starting with Sticker Star entire plots of the games began to revolve around paper or some aspect of it (stickers, paint, origami). It turned the series from Paper MARIO into PAPER Mario, if that makes sense. You can't go five seconds without a Toad making reference to being crumbled, folded, flattened, or some other paper-related aspect. I find the paper style and world much more charming when it's simply used as a visual style rather than characters making constant reference and winking at the camera to say how they're made of paper and in a paper world.

I will be honest the main reason the majority of fans don't like the newer games, because the exclusion of unique characters, story and just gimmicky gameplay which did nothing but distract from the exclusion of why people love, 64, TTYD and Super. Yes Super Paper Mario is highly beloved because of its darker story and characters especially the villains, you get a dislike for saying Super is bad. I would love a remake of 64 or Super or a new game which doesn't repeat the mistakes of Sticker Star, Colour Splash and Origami King. I little bro loves TTYD, he was willing to give TOK a try but soon told the battle gameplay sucks, but how tedious it got, including the fact you get nothing but story progession, making them pointless. Less is More. Which the Pre OG Paper Marios do to an excellent T with its non gimmicky gameplay, while the More is focused on unique diverse and beautiful papercraft world without distracting the Less. I forever see Sticker Star as a black stain that poisoned the series.

It has nothing to do with "its not TTYD", at least for me. I just wanted the unique looking partners!! It was my absolute favorite part of the original Paper Mario. TTYD expanded it slightly but in my opinion didn't do enough. I wanted some new designed characters who were of the enemy races but were friendly and joined your party! Also, I hated Origami King's battle system because I don't do well with puzzles on a timer. I like being able to take my time and figure out the puzzle. I can't do that in later battles in OK so battling became pointless. Also...stationary bosses. No cool looking Ice King or a roided up Clubba, no we fighting a stapler. It just...rubbed me the wrong way. That's my take on it.

This is what I think: The original trilogy of Paper Mario 64, The Thousand-Year Door, and Super Paper Mario really did feel like a cohesive set of games that established the "paper" universe as its own unique RPG interpretation of the Mario world. The Original Paper Mario Trilogy: The writing, humor, and creative papercraft visuals were top-notch in those first three games. The turn-based battle system combined with an overworld full of entertaining characters and scenarios made for a truly delightful experience. The Thousand-Year Door is rightly hailed as the high point of the series. Super Paper Mario, albeit more of an AA, still had the strong points of the storyline element; Don't judge me, but I think the story was much better and unique compared to TTYD's; Who expect Peach, Bowser and Luigi (also as a final boss) to take major roles as protagonists. The Second Mario Universe Trilogy: Then with Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King, the series pivoted to be more directly tied to the mainstream Mario universe rather than being its own self-contained paper world. The gameplay became more action-oriented and the stories/characters lost some of their distinctiveness. While I don't dislike those latter three games, they definitely felt like a departure from what made the original trilogy so special and imaginative. I fear that if they had stuck original formula, the series may have eventually grown stale. Change was likely needed to keep it feeling fresh and relevant. In a sense, the change was a bit of a Win-Lose; we saw that "staleness" with the New SMB series (preceding "Wonder"). So in that sense, splitting it into two different eras and styles was probably the right move, even if the new direction didn't quite rekindle the same magic as the first three classics for some fans. The original Paper Mario trilogy will likely remain many fans' favorites, but the series lives on in an updated form for a new generation as well.

When you were talking about Origami King going above and beyond with the paper theme, I think you unironically overlooked the big reason fans weren’t happy with these games. And what was it? The original “Paper Mario” games were not ALL ABOUT PAPER and had tons of PAPER PUNS. For Christ sakes, the bosses of Origami King are just realistic arts & craft tools (colored pencils, tape, rubber bands, a pair of scissors, a DOG stapler and even a disco dancing hole puncher). And I’d have to agree despite never playing any of these games. Nothing about the originals was so heavy on it being “paper”. Look at the fact the battle screens are performances on a stage. Just because the series was called Paper Mario didn’t mean the games were meant to be LITERAL PAPER & CARDBOARD. They were just aesthetic choices for the games, not the literal theming of the world.

Yes, the Paper Mario series COMPLETELY fell off. Color Splash and Origami King are good on their own right, but they were not what Paper Mario was supposed to be. There is a reason Mario has multiple branched IP's to do their experimental formulas on, and they don't do it on their mainline games, you cannot completely change the gameplay of a franchise whose mechanics were universally praised and its previous iteration practically unanimously regarded as one of the greatest RPGs of all time, and then expect people to move on because "hey, there is this other RPG series you can check out if you want that". What if after Mario Sunshine, there was not a separate New SMB series, but rather all mainline Mario games were now 2D and completely ditched the 3D formula? Outrage, and even if the games could stand on their own two feet, people would indeed say "it isn't Mario 64/Mario Sunshine".

I think it's disingenuous to dismiss any criticisms of origami king, of which there are many more than you stated in the video, with "it's not the Thousand Year Door so you think it sucks." Even then, let's say hypothetically you are correct. The fact is that the last original game in the series to release without any kind of controversy was the original Thousand Year Door 20 years ago. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a return to the thousand year door's gameplay style, especially since nothing else they've implemented over the years has reached nearly the same Heights.

You give origami king waaay too much credit. It was fun, but the combat was horrific. The volumentals was the only good combat. And to say the story is the best, is idiotic. Super paper Mario and ttyd are substantially better.

Paper Jam did the bare minimum with including Paper Mario characters. All it had were the titular character himself, Peach, Bowser, Toads, and the standard enemies in every Mario game. No characters original to Paper Mario made it in the game, and Paper Luigi was only in the sound test portion of the game that you get after beating it (and he actually talks, so the comedic potential this game could've had really got squandered). Even as a Mario and Luigi game, Paper Jam was pretty bland. None of the characters original to that series (aside from Starlow) were in. Like, sure, the game still plays about as good as any Mario and Luigi game, but why play it, when I could play literally any other game in the series (I personally think Dream Team gets too harshly criticized, despite its flaws). And if I wanna play a Paper Mario, well there's the first one, and TTYD (as far as the rpgs go). I understand it gets annoying to hear some people endlessly go on about how TTYD was peak Paper Mario, but in this case, I'd argue it's because it's true. It refined an already solid formula established from the first game, and added even more original characters, with a more original story. Super Paper Mario was pretty neat, but it needed some more polish. If the series had to go in a different direction, then I wish they stuck with refining what SPM did. It had potential. Sadly though, Nintendo went through this phase of sanitizing their Mario games to the point of being pretty bland, and forgettable experiences. None of the games of this era necessarily played bad, but not the best either. Just kinda meh, and Paper Mario wasn't safe from this sadly. Alphadream, and Intelligent Systems both were prohibited from making original characters within their respective franchises, and as you pointed out, Miyamoto felt story wasn't important to Paper Mario (despite it literally being called Mario Story in Japan). But yeah, this is why we got Sticker Star, and Color Splash, and why they're mid at best. I have yet to play Origami King, but it actually looks decent. Maybe they finally found a formula that stuck, or maybe in light of the remake of TTYD, we might finally get an actual follow up to that.

Super Paper mario was the last good paper mario game...after that it went downhill for me.

Paper Mario is the true definition of "if it ain't broken don't fix it" except Nintendo keep messint with it when it never needed any "fixing" to begin with. I'm a 90s kid, i got to see Paper Mario from the beginning, and it really was heartbreaking that the first rpg i ever played, would get 2 great sequels and then get such meh games after, it took them a decade to go back, and now that the Mario & Luigi games are dead, i hope Paper Mario takes it's spot back of being the main Mario rpg series. Also keep Tanabe away from Paper Mario forever. Also yes, i do want the games to be like TTYD, why? Because it just works, no need to change it, Paper Mario is not Pokemon to have to come up with a new gimnick every game like jeez. If they bring back Mario & Luigi, make them the guinea pig series to experiment with, not Paper Mario, Paper Mario has so much more potential for stories and so many untapped ideas for partner designs, i really hope they don't make another Action Adventure game right after TTYD, that'd be miserable 😭

Somebody come and save bro cuz he's falling hard trying to defend Origami King...

“Interesting puzzle” in sticker star? LMAO bro they hide require secret area. What kind of game hides require shit behind secret passage ways.

its not that the newer games sucked, im pretty sure most people know after sticker star the other games aren't bad... its just it took away so much from the first two they are basically different games. i mean hell, a perfect example is SPM, its bascially an entirely different game from paper mario and its sequel, but like, its by no means a bad game. its a really good one actually, good enough that people are willing to accept it as part of the trio despite how different it is from the original two. just...its not the same paper mario. i mean, just because they aren't bad doesn't mean people cant be upset they derailed paper mario. imagine if mario suddenly stopped using power ups and instead his abilities were based on his coin count. it could be a GREAT game...but it derails from what makes mario "mario" and if future games starting using the new coin system, the series would stop feeling like the classic mario.

no , you're wrong there is too much paper in those games paper mario isn't a game about fucking paper......

The "it's not TTYD" argument you bring up just trivialises the complaints have about the modern games. You barely touch upon topics like unique designs of existing and brand new characters. You barely touch upon the areas you explore. Origami King is clearly trying to fight against creative restrictions. It's writing is the best of the modern trilogy but still lacks unique characters and world building. If Origami King had the exact same gameplay but had the style of worldbuilding the original 3 games had, I guarantee there'd be a lot less haters. You also don't touch upon the fact that fans don't generally like Paper Jam because of how sterile it is compared to other M&L and Paper Mario games. You just assume it's the gameplay people want. You show confusion at the fact that fans got a traditional RPG like they wanted but still didn't enjoy it. The story and world matters too. I also dislike how you dismiss arguments against the games being too papery by calling them "stupid" but not elaborating on what those arguments. Arguments about the paper focus aren't stupid at all. They're very valid. You know the original series treated paper as just visual fluff. You can disagree with the paper argument, but you can't act like they're invalid. Just like how I can't argue that a series called "Paper Mario" can't be about paper. I guess my problem is the lack of explaining the nuance of negative reception. I wrote this comment half asleep so some may be nonsense.

I'm a huge Super Paper Mario fan. TTYD is the best Paper Mario game, while Super Paper Mario is my favorite Paper Mario game. I adore both games' story and character development, especially SPM. When I started Sticker Star, it was so baffling to me it lacked story. It's so bland, so excruciatingly uninteresting... Not to mention all the extremely cryptic puzzles. I stopped, looked online for a complete gameplay, and realized I wasn't missing anything.

fans of the first two games have valid reasons to be upset with how the series progressed afterwards. Nintendo created two games in a new franchise that solidified up to that point staple mechanics story elements and established the identity of what makes a Paper Mario/Mario Story game with the first two games in this franchise. Then with each following game they saw its identity stripped away more and more. Removing RPG turn based combat, level up mechanics, the badge system, a cast of original companion characters, emphasis on story and narrative. Instead of building upon what made the franchise what it was at its core they decided to sacrifice it instead for a new gimmicky system with each new game while continuing to strip away more of the original essences of what made this franchise stand out amongst other IPs (Besides its visuals being Paper). Fans watched as everything they missed and liked about the original two games as core mechanics and features of this series was given away to a different franchise instead (Mario and Luigi) and told with each new iteration in the series that it was not going to go back to what established this gaming franchise originally even though since its departure from those established core mechanics fans old and new have HEAVILY demanded for its return to form. Myself having played the first 3 games and watched this series grow and change since a child each game following The Thousand-Year Door has changed the franchises identity and especially after Super Paper Mario a feeling that the game and the company has stopped caring about the fans who bought and supported the series originally as much and continue to lose/change the identity of what they once established to fans as the standard of what makes a Paper Mario/Mario Story game exactly that. For many The Thousand-Year Door captures the heart of what we wanted more of after the first game, while also being the game that solidified the standard. The game has its flaws but when fans say "its not The Thousand- Year Door" in newer Paper Mario/Mario Story reviews or comments it is that those fans want what Thousand-Year Door built upon and kept from the original game. Instead each new game in the series is about a new mechanic or gimmick that replaces something that was the once standard of this beloved franchise.

Paper Jam aint a Paper Mario game bud, its a MARIO & LUIGI GAME

I really don't like the origami king battle system. The fights are pointless and feel needlessly complicated.

Stop using the rebuttal that fans don’t like the new stuff because “It’s not the thousand year door” its annoying as hell 😭

Growing up, I always wanted a Paper Luigi game with the lore we were given, as well as a game that has the four heroes of Rogueport, maybe add the two games together as a bundle.

As someone who likes Ttyd as much as Oragami king, I still wish for the redemption arc

Like TYD is so good because it's just a better Paper Mario, keep all the main elements and just add, it's not that hard of a concept. Pokemon still uses the same battle mechanics and it still works 🤷‍♂️

There's a little bit of video in your biased. Also, good way to downplay all the add-ons on the remake.

"Too much Paper in Paper Mario? Really?" The point of that complaint was that the first Paper Mario games never made a big deal of the whole paper thing. The paper look was an art style choice that was occasionally used for a one off visual gag, and absolutely nothing more. These weren't stories set in a paper world, but rather stories set in the Mario world, just with the art style of a storybook. Also, of course people realize that the series had moved away from the style of Paper Mario 64, and Thousand Year Door by the time of Origami King. Just because we all realize that...doesn't mean we all just have to deal with it, and support the newer games. It's on Nintendo to convince fans of the older games that the change in direction is worthwhile. So far, they have failed to do that for many of us, and so we continue to not support the new direction of the series. Origami King just isn't what many of us are looking for in a new Paper Mario game. For that matter, neither was Paper Jam. That was a Mario and Luigi game, guest starring Paper Mario. Whatever Nintendo may believe, Mario and Luigi was never a replacement for Paper Mario in the eyes of fans. Mario and Luigi was always its own unique take on the concept of a Mario RPG.

The next all-new Paper Mario game should just return to the roots. The first two Paper Mario games are the only ones that are really well-liked, with pretty much all the other ones being divisive, if not outright hated (as is the case for Sticker Star). It's telling that the TTYD remake is easily the most acclaimed Paper Mario game since the original TTYD.

I like all the first 3 games, they're the best ones ever

Downvote for legitimately being worse than Paper Mario haters with the screeching about "its not TTYD" My goodness you've earned a "Do Not Recommend this channel" extremely hard. The others ones aren't good because they don't have WORLDBUILDING. You know, the thing that makes the world feel alive and lived in? It's "too papery" because they replaced worldbuilding and character with visual paper flare. It's not that its different, it's that it replaces the UNDERLYING APPEAL of the ENTIRE SERIES... with a gimmick. Grow up.

The video started great, it was a nice analysis about the pros and cons of each game... then you started to sound pissy about TTYD lol. No, people doesn´t hate the newer games because "It´s not TTYD" but because they threw away almost everything that made the first 3 games great! the franchise started as an RPG which main focus is Story and BATTLES there´s absolutely no reason to battle anymore in the new games ´cause you don´t gain anything substantial and battling is something you would normally spend most of your time doing in a traditional RPG so a major staple that was present in the first 2 games was made just unnecessary, maybe next time try to do more research as to why people dislike the newer games in the first place instead of just reading the most popular opinions and make your criticism based on that

10:42 “useless text” don’t talk to the random NPCs in a rpg if you don’t want text!

The issue people have with the Paper aesthetic is because it became less of that: an aesthetic and more a gameplay requirement. Even with the visuals, the worldbuilding of the first three Paper Mario games can give the impression that they could happen without the Paper aesthetic. TTYD explores this by explaining Mario's paper abilities as curses. So when people complain about the games being too papery, they're complaining about the fact that the art style has influenced gameplay decisions, leading to things like the use of stickers, paint, and a battling system where progression is generally non-existent.

Ok I'm REALLY sick and tired of the TTYD fandom slander. Are we whiny? Yes absolutely. But just put yourself in our shoes for a second. Imagine if Nintendo did that shit with Mario Kart. They make an amazing sequel to a beloved game that improves the original in almost every way. It's universally praised and people ask for more. Nintendo says "oh you liked that? Well too bad because we think you want THIS instead." And then they proceed to reinvent the wheel and try to fix something that isn't broken for 15+ years. YOU WOULD BE SALTY TOO. DON'T LIE! Swap the Paper Mario series with Mario Kart in your mind and then you might understand why we're so upset that Nintendo outwright refuses to go back to a formula that worked and that everyone loved. Mario Kart has been pretty much the same ever since the first game, with the only difference between each game being the controls getting tighter and more responsive, and the items being changed sometimes. That's literally all we wanted for Paper Mario and Nintendo refused to listen to us. But things might be different now. The remake of TTYD has so much love and dedication put into it and I really hope it sells well. It might get the message across to Nintendo that we want the old battle system and partner system back but with a new world and story. It REALLY ISN'T THAT MUCH TO ASK TBH. But there is hope they might actually listen to feedback about the game and pull their head out of the sand.

2:52 “they made you flick your stick” 😂

Super Paper Mario is my favorite. I love it so much. The music, story, visuals, and writing are great. I keep changing my mind on what Paper Mario game is my favorite and right now super is my favorite. The only game that is better than it for me is Celeste.

Yeah sorry, I felt like you were being a bit obtuse about this. Paper Mario fans aren’t mad that paper Mario isn’t the thousand year door, regardless of it being the best, we’re mad that they keep making shit instead of games. Yes, paper jam is a good game, but it’s still not paper Mario. Paper Mario has companions, a great story, turn based combat, not JUST paper and turn based combat. Paper Mario 64 was an excellent game that matched that formula and wasn’t the thousand year door. The fact that you think origami king has good combat is just nothing short of shitty taste. The combat is ass ranging from overly simple to ridiculously hard in the solving department while being entirely repetitive and having no baring on the game. There is absolutely no reason to fight and combat should be avoided since there’s nothing to be gained but coins which you can get a plethora literally anywhere else. The game being criticized for being too papery is because the game started out as paper because of graphic limitations, not because it was the funniest shit ever. The problem is that it’s every fucking joke and every fucking gimmick. It’s fans like you who accept mediocrity that stifle this game series.

Super Paper Mario my beloved

Hmmm, I don't know about this video. Feel like there really much explaining about the "fall" when he trying to find the things people like in game, specially when he got to origami king and doesn't see that Modern Paper mario main thing/gimmick is the paper compare to the classic/1000/super where the story were it driving force, the paper was the afterthought Not saying he didn't understand, he did do an good job showing why people like each game and it is their opinion but there needed to be that OOMPH for the "Fall" like sticker star was beyond frustrating, an kid game but you NEED an guide for the mandatory secrets, required stickers, beating the bosses, etc

Love the video, but I also think it's a little disingenuous to chalk most complaints of the modern games to "It's not Thousand Year Door". Like, for example, I personally dislike Origami King combat for the same reasons you don't like Color Splash's: It adds a bunch of unnecessary steps to do simple actions and takes way too long for no real reward. There also just isn't a lot of strategy or variation to keep it interesting (I loved the boss fights though). This has less to do with me enjoying Thousand Year Door combat and more frustrations with how this is the third game in a row where they make a battle system with the same exact issues. I think Thousand Year Door is often used as a benchmark not because fans want that exact same game again, but because 20 years ago these devs didn't have the kinds of issues the modern trilogy has been consistently struggling with. I love Thousand Year Door, but I also love Super Paper Mario. I don't care if they mix up the gameplay from TTYD, but I want characters, stories, chapters/interesting scenarios, with combat that is at the very least unintrusive and somewhat rewarding.

super is not my favorite but you lose all credibility for criticizing the story and dialogue,

The 2 Loved ones: Paper Mario and Paper TTYD The 2 Controversial Ones: Super Paper Mario and Paper Mario Origami King The 2 Hated ones: Paper Mario Sticker Star and Paper Mario Color Splash

I played origami king even before I ever got to play Paper mario 2 and the criticism it gets from ttyd fans are one hundered percent valid. Battles are a chore and the world is bland. They made these beautiful and interesting enviornments only to fill them with basic toads. It's so easy to just look at the game and wonder how much better it could have been if they allowed interesting and weird characters to be in the game.

nintendo decided to put me in one of the three worst games in the paper mario series, sometimes i hate my creator

As a fan of Origami King, I do agree with some of the complaints. The battle system is fun, but as a whole I do prefer the PM64/TTYD style of traditional turn-based combat, with all the quirky partners. And I do also somewhat agree that the game is too papery. Not to say Origami King and Colour Splash look bad, they are indeed absolutely gorgeous. But part of me also misses when the Paper Mario games were a sort of 2.5D game, with minor paper gimmicks like turning into a paper airplane. Mostly just preferential, but I do hope the next game follows a similar vibe to TTYD, with it looking like its made out of paper, but not quite to the complete craftwork extent that the more recent game are.

Something that I almost never see being talked about is that Super Paper Mario not only deviated from the gameplay the previous two games had, but also from the aesthetic. Instead of paper, the world seems more digital: partners, point counter, enemies, the perspective flip animation… That’s something unique but that was weird about SPM.

Super Paper Mario is a great game on it’s own, I’d even be fine with a sequel

Nah bro, super is mostly accepted nowadays

The writing was so good in Color Splash, they pushed the boundaries of the games limits masterfully

32:16 I think these complaints come from what paper Mario originally was. The paper aesthetic was originally meant to serve more as a story book that is telling a story, and paper Mario turned to everything literally just being paper themed instead. It's no longer a story book telling a story, just literally a world made of paper

Origami King's boss fights were great, the normal battles were the boring ones which is most of the time. 25:48 Techradar saying it's a frightening example of how quickly and harshly, we judge games we know next to nothing about." I don't much about Metroid Prime Federation but I at least know people had gotten enough time with Sticker Star and color Splash saying they don't like it and want the RPG elements to come back. Paper Mario was doing just fine as an RPG, leave it as is and just keep inventing new ways with the RPG elements.

12:38. Heck no. The overly papery environments and focus on paper in the dialogue/story is a HORRIBLE thing about the new games. 32:20 Considering it wasn't even called Paper Mario to begin with...yes. It is too much. It makes the world feel fake. 33:42. Ironic since they got rid of the annoying two frame animations for movement they've been stuck with since Sticker Star.

Even now where the remake got released is everyone still comparing it way to much with the original. xD

31:01 Physics are real, he acted like he did not know it was coming back to hide his true wisdom.

SMRPG came out in 1996, not 1997.

To just add my perspective, I grew up with the Paper Mario series, loved both 64 and TTYD. I then remember being very excited for Super Paper Mario when that was announced and I even played through it fully but I was always thinking that they would just go back to the original Paper Mario combat after this game.. almost like it was a spin off of the Paper Mario games. Even when Sticker Star was announced I was excited to finally get another Paper Mario game since it was like 6 years since Super Paper Mario. And it just felt soul-less, I tried to get past even world 2, but it just felt like a chore to try to play through that game and that's when it hit me that the series was going in a different direction. I don't think it was mentioned in the video, but Miyamoto didn't just say the game needed to put the story on the back burner.. He didn't want ANY original characters other than the new "partner" in Sticker Star or future Paper Mario games. And THAT is where the series just plummeted in my eyes. I remember Color Splash being talked about how the story and writing was really funny and good, but once again no original characters. Then Origami King was getting trailers, I remember the community freaking out and being excited that there were SOMEWHAT different looking characters. A Bob-omb without a fuse?!?! AND THEY ARE FOLLOWING YOU?!?!? I was excited to see what the game would be like, but as the game became closer to release, those unique characters were not partners and that was the most unique part of those characters. The developers weren't able to even create even new characters to be bosses, they had to use IRL objects. My hopes were crushed once again. That is why the TTYD remake is so special to me and other fans like me. We just the unique and original characters, partners, and RPG systems to come back. "If there wasn't TTYD, would people still be complaining?" Probably not as much, because the "Paper Mario" franchise would've only had Sticker Star and Color Splash even sharing the same combat style. But I know I would be craving the first Paper Mario combat style again.

Mario and Luigi is back in a big way now brother!

"Mario and Luigi is dead. But it could be coming back, we dont know!" IT DOES !!

I had a great time with color splash . The HD graphics and the whole paper aesthetic was , on my opinion, great to look at . Plus , unlike sticker start , you actually have a reason to battle enemies. If I remember correctly enemies dropped hammer and after you grab a certain amount, your paint capacity increases. Anyways , in light of the above , color splash was and is a great game , way better than sticker star , on my opinion of course

The only Paper Mario game I played was Sticker Star but I am looking forward to play the Thousand-Year Door remake when I get it.

Really hoping the next paper Mario game has the graphics of origami king and the rpg elements of ttyd

I despise TOK the last time I've played it I almost swore myself to never buy another paper mario game until the remake of TTYD was announced.

4:49 Mario Story 2? But the Japanese on the box literally says "Paper Mario RPG," which kinda implies TTYD went with the localized titles for the second game onward.

Great video! I only recently started origami king and own super paper mario and color splash which I want to play soon

I never got to play Super Mario RPG in 97 coz it was never released in my country. At least we got the remake though!

@ 23:50 And that's exactly why I never played Sticker star or color splash. I saw how stupid, unfun, annoying the battle mechanics were. I had already accepted SPM lack of turn-based combat. Although, I sold it when it first released about a week later. But I came bacc to it in 2016 to give it another try and ended up really enjoying it. I was tempted to play Origami king because the graphics looked so damn good, but the way the combat system looked just turned me off. I'm not one of those ppl that are like, every paper mario game has to be turn-based like the first two. Because again, I enjoyed SPM a lot and that was just a regular platforming game. It's just stupid gimmicky, unfun looking gameplay mechanics that I know will frustrate the hell out of me will determine if I'll buy it or not.

How does origami king have a better story then spm also I know ttyd fans are a little bit stingy but they don’t deserve this kind of hate

Paper Mario for N64 is still my favorite one from the series to THIS day and still one of my favorites of all time