Thanks for and excellent history and sharing those fantastic vintage rifles. An interesting topic. I think .22 has much to offer the hunter and I still prefer it for rabbits and rats. .177's trajectory makes it easier to compensate for range, but a fraction off target (wind, rain, dark, elevation, the nut behind the barrel...) and the animal is maimed and down its burrow. .22 is a more reliable kill and will nearly always drop the quarry, if necessary for quick, follow-up humane dispatch. '.22 for fur, .177 for feather' was alway the mantra and holds pretty true (give me .177 for wood pigeon, a cheeky pheasant and crow any day). A modern PCP .22 and quality pellets is very consistent and the trajectory not too loopy, it is also pretty resistant to wind. But as most air rifles don't get used for hunting (more for looking tactical on TikTok), .177 is easier and cheaper (though generally less shots per fill). And we're all susceptible to the (shooting) God-complex that .177 gives (dream on!). So yes, .177 is very popular, but I was talking to my RFD (one of the biggest airgun dealer in the UK) the other day and he said .22 still sells a lot and it's very hard to predict what rifle will sell more in either calibre. The rise of bullpups and tactical style guns has seen a resurgence in .22 and even recent anniversary's Weihrauch HW100s have sold quicker in .22. So life in the old dog yet! As for FAC, I understand .25 for larger quarry, but don't see too many monkeys running around my woods and hills, so think it's utterly unnecessary for typical European quarry (hare possibly). FAC .22 is another story - ditch pellets and move to slugs and you have an excellent, humane, all-round, small-game calibre. All that said, my Anschutz .22LR cost £450 new, so about £1500 less than a top end FX or Daystate... and £1500 is lot of bullets and a more powerful, lighter, simpler gun! Truth be told, I like the limited power of air rifles, the skill they take and the ease with which you can use them - that's out the window with FAC (and I'm a farmer).
All of my air rifles are in .22 , I had a PCP in .177 but it was rather dull to shoot and just gathered dust , long live the .22 ! Lovely collection of air rifles though 👍👍
The one and only reason we have a 12ftlb limit on air rifles in the UK was brought in via parliament being lobbied by the British air rifle manufacturers in the 70s . The British air rifles could not compete with the foreign made models . My HW80 from the early 70s has 20ftlbs out of the box and no British made rifle come close . This was a pathetic move to make us now use TOYS . As a 10 year old I have a .22 lr but now as an old timer I am limited to a pathetic WOKE 12ftlbs . This country is weak tbh
Correction…1969 No. 47 ARMS AND AMMUNITION The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969… which came about because of the American Pump up rifles and their power levels.
Interesting observations there 🧐 Personally started off in the 60’s with a Daisy open sight .177. Got back into air gunning in the early 90’s with an old Webley .22 and never looked back. Moved on a bit but not have two springer .22’s and two PCP.22’s. It’s what I know and what I’m used to.
I wonder if .22 air rifles are about to make a come back now that you have affordable scopes with ballistic calculators with laser range finders built in. When it comes to the larger calibre pellet they have a superior energy retention than a smaller one, so if you hunt over long distances and your scope indicates precisely where the pellet will hit then it doesn’t matter about the loopy trajectory.
@stephenbroadhurst7653 I don't know because there's other advantages of .177, .177 pellets are cheaper, pcp magazines tend to hold more in .177 & some shooting competitions are .177 only. Over the 12 ft lbs limit we have here I imagine .22 is going to be very popular still.
@@jimmynich4791 Without a doubt .177” pellets are cheaper but I can’t think a magazine that holds 12 pellets rather than 10 pellets is of much importance, it’s nice to have a quick back up shot if you miss the brain the first time but if there’s more than one varmint and they haven’t scattered then what’s the rush. As for .177” only competitions then yes you will have to use a .177” there’s no way round that one, but when you compare how much energy is lost over longer distances with .177” pellets you have to ask yourself when lead is banned pellets will be almost half the weight and that will compound the problem that .177” already has !
I just want to record my thanks to Paul. You are a natural authority on the history of air guns in UK with a clear interest in all of them from the earliest all the way through to the latest electronic gems - which you are also committed to. We should all be grateful for having an expert who speaks his mind and seeks to give quality advice without bias.
I must admit that I have .177 & .22 & don't notice much difference in the trajectories, I do tend to target with the .177 & hunt with the .22, I do remember in the way back "tuning" my guns myself at 10 or 11 with a bag of washers, i made a few quid doing some for other's as well. I also remember my brother having an Airsporter & I really wanted one, he could save & that was something I could never do, that said he couldn't shoot for shit, it was the same with motorcycles year's later. A really nice post, thanks.
Good video I concur with your reasoning through the decades ,I had a Webley hawk mk3 in the late seventies it was .177 great wee rifle , thanks for making the video
Very interesting and showed me some facts I'd never realised, I think with target shooting especially with pcp's, because it is physically now easy to shoot a lot of pellets .177 are popular due to cost, I've heard a few mention this.
Hi Paul, I saw you'd posted your video and just had to stop what I was doing and watch it. Thank you, I love your passion and commitment in your love of air rifles and how you describe them. My father left me something similar to those first air rifles you showed us. In their day, for someone keen and interested enough, they'd have put food on the table, no question. My example is loose and has rattles, though it will, given its age. Its .177 calibre and very accurate and not greatly worse off for no telescopic sights. At that time, if I'd been around, I'd have loved to own something like that. They would have been the pcp's of their day. They are beautifully engineered around their pellet breeches. You could see the advancement in the Webley MK3. The gorgeous blueing and improved stock both in material and more substantial shape. From someone nowhere near as knowledgeable as you, I always preferred the .177 calibre with the flatter tradjectory, although I didn't like giving in to the smaller pellet. If you hit where you intend, it will be lights out with .177. A few months ago, I had two identical spring air rifles.177 and .22. After shooting both of them, it was plain to see that the .177 pellet flew much faster and flatter, and I'd say much more hitting power. Thank you for your video and commentary. I found it very interesting and really like your passion and commitment in showing us what you do, and I feel I really benefit from what you show and tell us. Best wishes, Ian.
Another interesting video. Yes, I agree with your thoughts on this. When I was a young lad in the sixties, .22 was the preferred air rifle calibre for me and all my mates. Anyone with a .177 was looked down on 😂 In the last five years, all four of new rifles I have purchased were bought in .177
As technology increases calibre's in FAC will increase because the caliber is the only thing that can increase because of the sound barrier. I also think the UK's sub 12 fpe limit is ridiculously extreme. Many EU countries have airgun laws, Sweden is limited to .177 but any power, Spain is limited to 18 fpe.... And the UK is sub 12!! That's madness.
yes in sweden its 10 joule ,, but i think that it can go to far ,i got a piledriver .45 .800 fpe , you are in 357 mag power the72 zeus is a 454 casull and then lawmakers start to think ,when its misused
Ye, it's kind of silly that Spain has a humane power allowance but cant hunt and the UK has an inhumane power limit but can hunt. This is what happens when people make laws on things they know nothing about. @@user-tl1fh3ro6r
@@doomfathertm8771 Yeah , I mean how are you supposed to eat in a barn or control pests in an urban environment? An airgun is so much better suited to those roles than say a 22LR. All airguns shooting pellets have a much shorter dangerous range and less likely of a (dangerous) ricochet than a 22LR.
Interesting. I have been away from air rifle shooting for quite a few years. I have owned some horrible Chinese rifles, a lovely BSA Lightening (original), Theoben Sirocco .177, BSA Super Ten .177, and non-air a Smith and Wesson .38. I'm thinking of coming back into the sport and it's great the calibre discussion still continues. I used to enjoy the arguments / heated discussions. It added something to the shoots. Thank you. PS: I'm buying a springer.
Got my 1st springer in the 60s a .177 Winchester I think made by Anschutz . Several thousand birds and chipmunks and its still taking down squirrels at close range. 😮
.22 still wins outdoors for me. FT and HFT have made .177 popular but that's only because of the knockdown target plates shooting through a hole and the statistics of potentially splitting the edge with CTC (centre to centre) groups. If they changed the targets to be an exposed hit like a spinner you would see a shift back to .22 the same CTC groups would have more hits with .22 but larger outside edge. Once you understand the ballistics and know the range .22 is superior outdoors and retains more energy. More people need to learn how to use a rifle outside of point blank range and start dialling for range or using holdover correctly, since target turret scopes are now cheaper than the rifles themselves. If your out hunting using a mix of eyeball practice and a range finder which is also cheap enough, even if you use parallax error like FT they have almost eliminated range errors. Wind? .177 can make some very small holes in paper and takes a few less mills to knock over a Coke can @100m. But I just bought a new .22.
There is a company in Canada, not allowed to name them, that exports 'Black Powder' flintlock/cap and ball 17th/18th/19th century weapons. Their big market is America but they also export to Britain, France, Germany, Poland etc.. They have accurate affordable historically well made reproductions in various calibers. They do export to the UK, they are classified as 'antiques' and may be worth looking into as an alternative to air guns!
.177 with a JSB RS in a modern spring rifle making 11.6 ft lbs.. thats screaming along at 845 fps compared to .22 I've bowled rabbits over at distances with an Air Arms Pro Sport that most would consider unrealistic for an air gun. .177 is king 👑
When I was a teenager we all thought .22 was the only game in town and .177 was a target only thing. I have a full-power .22 rifle for small pest control etc. BUT knowing what I now know about ballistics I would trade pellet size for muzzle velocity if I was buying another rifle now as I think its better to have flatter shooting than a ballistic arc due to slower pellets. Back at the turn of the century when there were few firearms laws, I would just have gone for .22 rimfire anyway...
True. 177 was, is and probably will continue to be sort of "universal" or "standard" caliber within the lower power range, and .25 is an excellent choice for those who want to get into "serious" hunting but do not crave for extreme power where one has to turn to bigger bores. Caliber .22 somehow sits in-between, though for the FAC guys who are into pest control with "magnum springers", it may be a caliber of choice.
As a kid in the 1960s USA I decided on a .177 Benjamin pneumatic model 317. My pals had .20 Sheridans as this was Racine, Wis. where the Sheridan was made and you could get ones with cosmetic defects from the factory at a discount. I passed over .20 and .22 guns for .177 for several reasons. One was that .177 had higher velocity (750 fps in my Benjamin) and flatter trajectory than .20 and .22 making longer range hits possible. Second the price of .177 pellets was lower and selection of pellet types was greater. In fact, with the Sheridan there was just one pellet type. Yes, the .20 Sheridan hit harder than .177, but i wasn't after "big game" but mainly birds. I still have my 1965 Benjamin and a newer Chinese .177 underlever that i shot a bear with last year to chase it out of my yard. 😂 i like piston airguns way better than the pump up Benjamin and Sheridan types. 😂
what you say only makes sense in limited ft lb places but where there is no limit on power 22 25 and 30 make more sense like in America 22 is the most common caliber
I get your reasoning, but no - its based on aerodynamics, mass and velocity (ballistic coefficient). All things being equal, a larger calibre projectile will hold more energy down range and be harder to knock off-course by wind. On a windy day, think car versus motorcycle. .177 is awful in the wind. @@mirandahotspring4019
Definitely. Ballistic scopes will dominate hunting and recreational shooting very soon and then the advantage of .177 for trajectory compensation will be negated (outside competition, of course!). And good luck designing a lead-free .177!
@@jameshoward9700 Not quite right. The car and motorbike is not a good analogy because they both are connected to the ground by friction. In a moving current of air all bullets are affected the same regardless of mass, it is the time they are in the moving air that is relevant. Think of it more like a current at sea which moves all ships within it, regardless of their size. Windage is a simple vector calculation, direction of bullet, direction of wind, and time of flight. When I was in the army as an instructor at the School of Infantry this was demonstrated many times for all calibres from 5.56mm to 12.7mm (.223 to .50 calibre).
Your statement is absolutely correct! I’m baffled by the other comments because I got asked about this the other day by a rimfire shooter who wasn’t happy with his .177 pcp. So we put it to the test pulling out the chrono I happen to have both my Hw97’s one in .177 and the other in .22 both were using JSB pellets I shot a string through both and then ran the average speeds through a ballistics calculator. .177 exits the barrel faster then a .22 But loses speed more quickly. Deviation from wind drift is also greater at distance. .22 exits the barrel more slowly and doesn’t lose speed as much due to momentum and at distance will be traveling faster the .177. Also.22 has less deviation from wind drift. This will be due to momentum a .22 pellet is nearly twice the weight of a .177 and anyone who has had a physics lesson knows you need an equal and opposite force to stop it hence more force is required to slow the heavier pellet down. These results are fact and you can see this demonstrated on RU-vid with a sub 12flbs air rifle on the airgun gear show channel. I shoot out to 75yards regularly at a 28mm bell target it’s harder to hit with a .177 because judging the wind is difficult and pellet flight becomes erratic. At shorter Hft distances .177 has a flatter trajectory lending itself to that type of shooting hence the popularity. But for hunting you will be laser ranging your target before the shot and the less wind drift the better because that’s harder to judge. .22 pellets definitely hit harder a fun test for that is to get a flip over walking targets and get you and a friend to shoot one with .22 and one with .177 the target, as the target gets further away the .177 will be unable to move the target while the .22 will move it further before it becomes ineffective.
Every rifle I own is .177. Using Barracuda Hunter Extremes I can take Rabbits at 40+ yards with head and heart shots no problem. .22 at that distance has a Hell of a lot of hold over at 40+ yards which in sub 12 ft lbs is rather annoying.
Bought a red Ryder for my kids in the 80s for them to learn how to shoot . Still have it and it is still working as intended . Little fun plinker . One of my sons served in the Royal Marines and still tells how he learned to shoot with it . One of his pals ended up being armed response and he even remembers learning how to use one . Something we need to make sure every kid knows how to do for the new Dads army
@@Interdiction When I was in the U.S. Marines at the school of infantry A whole pallet of brand-new Daisey red riders were issued to us for Mout training. It hurts me to have learned these are made in China now, if you ever get a chance the Christmas Story house at 3159 W 11th St, Cleveland, OH 44109 is pretty cool.
Thankyou for a fine video of some of your collection. But as WC Fields once said "Reports of my demise are greatly exaggerated". The . 22 isn't going away any time soon. Only in places where there is a power limit does 177 make sense. I have killed hundreds of pest animals from mice to raccoons with a variety of airguns over 30 years. I can attest that the..22 has the higher DRT quotient. Dead Right There. So, Don't come shaking a 177 at me. I know better! Thanks again for showing us some of your fine rifles. You are a blessed man sir. John Davis Jax Fl USA
i think 177 will be obsolete when the lead pellet ban comes into being cos they cant find a replacement made from alloy just not heavy enough mate my last purchase was a 22 walther reign trying to sell my 177 ones now merry xmas mate
G'day, Why is it that you Assume and allege that simply because a man is Bald, Wears Glasses, & Knows what he's talking about ; then therefore You are Entitled to float mindless Guesses as to his personal Sexual Polarity... (???)!!! So, Um...; How long have you been a Closeted Homosexual...? Wear your Heart on your sleeve, Behaviourally...; And EXPECT to be called out, Bitch...(!). Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !
Nice bit of history on air guns . On the subject of .177 or .22 Have you still got your Daystate Alfa wolf .177 and did you change the calibre to .22 as I know you had the .22 kit to do it also the BRK ghost 👻
I always thought BSA made .177 rifles because they were so underpowered they wouldn't push a .22 pellet. As such, I never owned or wanted a BSA. I did once make a friends Supersport very potent by installing an HW97 mainspring, but you didn't hear it from me...
Got an HW100T in .20, need to get the optimum Weight pellet And mid to high 11fpes to get the true benifit of the calibre, 11.5fpe & 12 / 13 grn pellets gets you near... Although it must be said, I use 16grn for sqizzers with exceptional accuracy and hitting power, and 13grn for target work
@@markhomer5704 I'm interested in trying a .20 springer. I assumed the benefit is higher velocity than a .22, more efficient energy transfer to the pellet than .177, better retained energy and terminal performance than a .177
I suppose in essence that is the idea.. As I said, you need too get the ideal weight for the caliber.. The next question could be, does a 16grn. 20 pellet travel faster than a. 22 16grn? You'd think the same wouldn't you.. That's something I've not tried yet,
@@markhomer5704 Yeah that would be interesting to do some side by side testing of those calibres, my typical .22 pellets (AA Field dome) are 16gr. If you had two rifles, one .22 and the other .20 and they were both set up to shoot 16gr pellets at the same energy then at close range the velocity should be the same but after that the different cross section area will affect how they slow down due to air resistance. I guess the .20 would have a bit less air resistance and the .22 a bit more so the .22 would slow down a bit faster but the .22 pellet will have it's centre of mass more towards the nose of the pellet so it would have better stability? Dunno which might prove better in terms of grouping and terminal effects. I'd be looking to use a lighter .20 pellet for general use and take advantage of that bit higher velocity although a lack of different .20 pellets to try could be a factor.
@@Beesa10 I was thinking along those lines, would take some setting up though.. I've no doubt ( well I say that, I may be wrong) the. 20 would retain is velocity better, But, may be the other way round, gonna have to find some data on the Internet.. Only got a 30mtr range at home, but that may be enough. Weather is terrible this week, and it's the only time I've got off.... Sods law.. Got some 15grn slugs to test first.(.20) but can do that from inside with patio doors open, only 20mtrs max though.. But should be enough for a basic grouping..
Beautiful collection all yours? Greetings from 🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱😉👍 o yes i own also 2 old girls.a air pistol diana model 2 made in germany and a beautiful walther lg55 with Tyrolean stock and double trigger and diopter
Hi Paul do you know where I can get a mint Mc 3 from had one when I was a kid would love to get another reg gizzi soldered a scope mount on it and ruined blueing on it many thanks john from Anglesey
G'day, 6 minutes in. In 1964 my father's uncle gave me a 1903 BSA 0.177 " Air Rifle, an Underlever with a Rotary-Breach/"Tap-Loading". As I was 3 years old at the time, I wasn't let loose with it until 1967 - and as a 6 yr-old I had to lean it up against a fence to swing off theLoading Lever..., hoping like Hell that the Trigger engaged the Plunger least the Lever try to take my teeth out. I was tasked, at age 6, with defending my mother's Washing-Line from Currawongs & Magpies shitting on the Sheets... In 1971, at age 10, they gave me a (New) 0.22"- Calibre Break-Action (O-Ring Sealed) Air Rifle... (I actually forget the manufacturer...) The .22 was no more effective against Magpies or Currawongs at 50 yards, than was the 1903 .177 BSA. By the middle 1970s, both were being "Dieselled" Using actual "Diesel"(Compression-Ignition) Model Aero-Engine Fuel (1/3 Kerosene, 1/3 Petroleum Ether, 1/3 Castor Oil...). By 1975 I was shooting .22 LR and by 1978 had become Captain of the High-School Rifle Team. By the 1980s both my Air Rifles had been sold off. These dayze, I wish I still had Both of them. Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !
An interesting video on history. We all know there is no such thing as an unloaded gun of any kind, by watching your own video you can see how many times you put your finger on the trigers as a matter of habbit! Still liked the video though.
I wouldnt shoot anything other then a tin can with 12 foot pound its just not a clean kill at all unless at 3 yards away which is 9 feet id say at least 25 foot pound is needed
Last year I was compelled to surrender my grandfather's early 0.22" BSA Lincoln Jeffrey's under Scottish law because I lost my referee. The gun is a smoothbore - not a rifle, and my licence, despite costing full price, was limited to use for display purposes only!
@@fieldsportcymru4636 unfortunately, like so many knee jerk, political popolurity laws: written by people unqualified, and ill advised. Only a licensed dealer can trade, and none responded ho me. I actually drilled the breach on my heirloom, to render it valueless before giving it over (when the Scottish Act was first introduced, there were rumours of historic, or valuable pieces, being taken to English Auction Houses by certain local County Forces, before Police Scotland was created) Incidently, your potted history missed out a relevant factor; target shooting gained immense popularity around the end of the Boer War, because it was actively encouraged by the Government of the day, after it was discovered with the decline in hunting, the average British recruit was a terrible shot!
I am very sorry I don't know your first name I have a bsa superstar in carbine form .22 in good condition which I am willing to sell if you know of anyone interested many thanks derek
People using airguns 100 odd years ago, would not have been bothered about clean kills.....also they had less accurate airguns and no scopes..........if you shooting an airgun in a garden or allotment and going for body shots with a gun of limited accuracy then I can see why a .25 calibre would be used over a .177..........most body shots at small game with a .177 and the vermin would fly or run off........same shot with a .25 and its likely to be knocked over and if not killed, badly maimed and you can run and retrieve it......say again, people in past wouldn't have given a shit about clean kills but wanted the maximum amount of ' clout '.......come on its not rocket science!
