This is very true. Part of the problem is that there are so many different creatives telling so many stories with the same characters. Some creatives may want to evolve the characters yet some fans and other creators may not want to see that change. Check out Geoff Johns; as much as we love his work, he couldn't let Barry Allen remain dead with Wally West as THE Flash. Barry came back and... well where does that leave Wally? Heck, they retconned Wally away despite 60 years of publishing history to give it the name to another character. In large part because New 52 reset so much stuff. The new 52 Titans tried a new version of the team; it didn't work even though it had some great new generation Titans like Tim Drake, Cassie Wonder Girl, and Bart Allen. Many people wanted the old team, i.e. Nightwing, Starfire, Raven, etc.... yet did that team even have a reason to exist? 1980's New Teen Titans was a LOOOONG time ago and neither Wolfman nor Perez (RIP) were in top form for New 52. Rambling a bit, just that as much as we love these characters, at some point you just start to retread the past like some aging rock band trying to recapture past glories.
And in the case of alot of them they just plain aren't alowed to have an ending let along a happy one. Spiderman and batman are the biggest losers of that I think.
@@Night-ec7ef honestly, that is one thing I like about Alfred dying and Damien existing: Bruce is truly a father as he never has been before. He has a true blood son AND he has no father figure to go to for advice. Bruce has to mature in a way he never had to before. It's fresh and exciting. It's why, as much as we loved Alfred, I want the character to stay dead.
Comic-books HATE stable relationships, lol. The industry thrives on the chaos, and melodrama of strife in everything, including romance. It's why comic book couples often have the most toxic histories. Look at MJ and Peter right now, or Storm and T'Challa, or any other couple that isn't (maybe) Lois and Clark. I haven't checked back on their current state, but I'm pretty sure they're the longest running, and stable couple in the comic industry.
This is 4 for 4 times I've heard a male hero was raped at DC and it was treated as "an affair". What the hell was going on over in the writing for those years?
When man are raped, there's always an excuse. "He probably enjoyed it", "he is lucky", "I wish I was in his shoes", "that's just how boys are" And honestly, that is disgusting.
I just learned that this literally happens a lot to nightwing and it’s so sick, like he gets sa’d in a roof top with the villain and people literally never took it seriously or anything it was so sad….
This is why I liked the way the writers handled Mark Grayson from Invincible is hiw they acknowledged the fact that he was sexually assaulted and show the trauma he goes through and Eve being the most supportive and understanding girlfriend
Well they did have a cartoon to promote them. Meanwhile Nightwing and Oracle hasn't got anything asside from brief moments in Young Justice. There hasn't been any good Nightwing adaptations.
@@eonnexus because they have a good romance. Also she was his main love interest in the comics for a long time now. They always come back to each other.
@huntertezz I'd argue against their romance being "good" When Babs was introduced, she was close to Bruce's age (in a failed attempt at romance between THEM) while Dick was still a teenager, up till the 90's, his relationship with her never went past a teenage crush. Then the animated series happened and paired them together (for the express purpose of having an ntr plot where Bruce cucks his son), and the comics de-aged her to align with that, and while their relationship is SOMETIMES done well, for the most part, especially in recent years, Barbara is actively regressed as a character so she could serve the purpose of being "Nightwings girlfriend" instead of being Oracle or even just Batgirl. Seriously, you'd be hard-pressed to find a comic involving Barbara where Dick ISN'T in it with her, and if you do, it more likely than not drives in the fact that they're a couple. If the relationship relies so heavily on them being attached by the hip, then I'd say it failed as a relationship. At the very least, Starfire was made WITH this aspect in mind and actually uses it as a plot point, it just feels out of character for Barbara to be THIS reliant on him.
@@eonnexus To me the ages don't matter because they started a relationship when they are adults. The comics didn't de age to align with that, her de aging came later and so did her character regression but its not because of Nightwing. Barbara's character regression was because of Dc's attempt to make her Batgirl again and erase Oracle. Even erase her cooler successors. Not because of her relationship with Nightwing (although I agree her age was reduced because of him but wasn't a big change at that point) Its not that hard to find a comic involving Barbara where Dick is't in it with her. Sheesh just read a birds of prey book or a solo series. At best he makes a guest appearance or cameo but he is never big part of the book. Barbara is not reliant on him. Most of new 52 and rebirth they weren't even together. Kept teasing that they will but something akways got in the way. Are you talking about the current Nightwing series? Taylor doesn't write a good Barbara but it makes sense why she is so prominent, they are almost living together and everyone has become protective of Nightwing after Ric.
This is why I hate editors. They refuse to move the characters forward, because they do not want to break the sacred "status quo". Everytime we see some meaningful development between the characters, the bloody editorial staff stick their noses in and throw it all out the window. This is why most people prefer manga. At least with manga we actually see the characters grow and be allowed to be happy!
What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with the status quo. In fact this changed Nightwing's status quo. This led to him outgrowing the Titans and becoming an iconic solo hero.
@@huntertezz and it only lasts for about a week most times...even within his own book. The Monitors...excuse me, I mean editorial team always find a way to meddle and undo every possible good status quo shakeup. I mean yikes...look at what happened when Dick and Donna got promoted to Batman and Wonder Woman...Circe and Heracles bullied Donna into returning to dressing as Troia (although Diana lets her use the Wonder Woman name still.) and now just having a public identity just because they couldn't toy with Diana anymore...even though for a year between Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis Donna had actually been doing a good job as Wonder Woman...and Dick was doing well as Batman, but it really seems like Wally West is the only legacy character allowed to have an actual celebrated succession run (pun intended) and even then they had to make him get duped by Savitar and Zoom for no reason...other than to ruin his good reputation for editors who still think Barry Allen should be the primary Flash....when today Wally West has been preferred for as many generations as Barry had.
@@huntertezz the status quo moves at a glacial pace and whatever change is rarely meaningful. Nightwing's existence just replace the status quo for another one since it turn Robin into a mantle name. Dick Grayson could have remain with the name Robin and things barely would have change.
@@Superlad9494 But it didn't last for a week. Nightwing's status changed permanently. He went from being onky a team hero to a an independent hero with his own city. I agree that most status quo changes tend to not last long but in this case it clearly did for Nightwing.
I've always preferred Kori and Dick over Dick and Barbara. Batgirl and Robin just gives first relationship, it inevitably needs to end and should explore other people
I personally like the dark orange skin the best but I'm fine with the yellow skin as well. I just hate when they give her human looking skin and give her normal green eyes with white sclera, when they do that you wouldn't even know she's an alien.
Yeah, Mirage. Its so weird, I just got out of an annoying Reddit argument where people thought Speedy/Roy Harper should of been kicked off for flirting with Starfire; yet here is the one Titan member who committed SA in the book yet NOT KICKED OFF
@@nevieluvsme too but it gives me peace of mind knowing that whenever they do an animation or live action,his partner will be Kory.Nightwing will always belong to Starfire no matter what anyone says.
@@nevieluvs The nice part about fiction is that you can just makw your own head canons and retcons. If you don't like something, then act like it doesn't exist, if you wanted something else then make it canon to you. You can do whatever you want with fiction because the only thing that makes a character is a writer and each writer makes up their own head canons, only difference is they get paid for it. Personally Dick and Starfire will always be together in my mind.
Starfire's exotification and the writer's preference to put her sex appeal first is a big part of why she hasn't broken out as well as she could have. Plus her romance with Dick and Roy is usually glossed over as mainly sexual (and Dick also being a victim of objectification doesn't help).
All the product of PRO-BARB PROPAGANDA. Lol but seriously, where do you think she should she should be taken? Or do you think it's a lost cause at this point lol. I just Starfire to be a full character again 😭
@@StormKoriHQ At this point, I think it's VERY hard to get her to break out--solely because she's familiar, but rarely ever on her own. It's like giving a supporting character on a tv show their own spinoff (RIP "The Cleveland Show"). I think diving more into her culture and beliefs would be ideal. Scale back on her as a sex icon (she's always labeled as the hot alien wherever she goes), give her other characters (preferably other superhumans or aliens) to befriend, etc. I definitely want her to be mentored by Superman and Wonder Woman on how it feels to uphold your ideals despite being in a different land (not to mention I kinda ship her brother and Supergirl, but that's a bonus), though it's hard for me to form an expert opinion. Definitely include her on more teams and events for a start.
@@OpticalSorcerer actually why not go back to her Quality Comics (now part of DC) inspiration from back in the day as Perez drew inspiration from Wildfire in the Golden Age with a little Red Sonja. It would show that all three of the primary New Titans characters came from non-traditional mentors, i.e. Raven from Phantom Stranger, Cyborg from both who became Robot Man and Kori from Wildfire. Not to mention that you could make a bunch of jokes about Carol Martin being the secret identity of Wildfire...I mean...even well after 50 years that show is seen in the same popularity vein as Scooby-Doo...seeing as how both of those 1970's shows are decade definitive and have catchy theme songs...and how modern comics enjoy some silver/bronze age flashbacks. New Background For Kori After she arrives on Earth in 1970 and is rescued by Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, Aqualad, Wonder Girl, Bumblebee, Herald and BB, she is taken to the JSA for a mentor assignment and they suggest she goes to Wildfire, who like the rest of the golden age characters have slower aging (because Hourman's Miraclo unless Kryptonian, Amazon, Thanagarian, Martian or a member of the Shazamily), she trains with Carol as Starfire and learns a bit more about Earth and it's rules until 1980 when the Titans reform...with the reason Starfire doesn't join the Titans at first rescue is because...Robin while he does like her...was too embarrassed to let her join right away...all while Donna, Garth, Roy, Wally, Karen, Mal and Gar are laughing their heads off...mostly Wally. Also, Carol would be stationed in Key West, FL.
@@Superlad9494 I don't know much about her classic origins, so I can't say much about your suggestions. I will say that there may be some confusion since her brother is also named Wildfire, so one of those codenamee would jave to change, lol.
@@OpticalSorcerer Carol's kinda like Daphne Blake except she can shoot fire...she got her abilities from a flame giant since "she fears nothing!" and has a dayjob as a socialite...her costume was red and sort of half- Teen Titans Go'03 Starfire, half-Wonder Woman...and she's ginger. Here's an idea concerning Ryand'r though, Kori and Ryan both show up at the same time and are mentored by Carol...Ryan uses his original codename from the 1980's as Darkfire (he's only Wildfire in the Teen Titans Go'03 comic, everywhere else in the mainline comics he's called just called Darkfire or Ryand'r) in training, then when Carol is forced to retire after a mission, Ryan takes up her name when he joins the Omega Men...and later the legionnaire of the same name takes it up having been inspired by tales of the Firey Trio.
I've always thought Kori and Dick were a better couple than Dick being with Barbra. It's not as if that relationship is terrible, but Starfire and Nightwing were so good together, and it was totally wasted. I believe they were up there on the level of Green Arrow and Black Canary, Batman and Catwoman, or Reed Richards and Sue Storm as comic couples
It is fascinating to see how Dick/Kory was so popular and loved by fans at the time only to get tossed to the side, with some writers even reducing it to just being meaningless sex, and then give raise to a new popular ship with Barbara. I remember reading Nightwing Year 1 graphic novel for the first time. It teased Dick and Babs, with him trying to get hot and heavy with her, despite being Kory in that story. They try to downplay that relationship with Kory. At the same time DC still teases them a lot and this couple was the one seen in the DC Movie Animated Universe over Dick/Babs is a big deal. Fans seemed to like that relationship in those movies. Teen Titan 03 animated series still has its fans. Despite Babs and Dick being the more prominent Dick couple since the 2000s, it does feel if a Titans or Nightwing writer who was fond of this couple wrote a run where they got back together for real that it could be well recieved and might change the status quo back to them.
I think Starfire being the prize and weak woman in the potential proposal story is what’s keeping story from becoming the full strong character that she is but is never allowed to be. She is such a good character even on her own
I just don't know wtf Art was thinking there. Like I get the romantic aspect of Dick cradling Kori lol but who tf wants her to be damsel? AGAIN? The foundation is there but it could go in so many better directions and still result in them getting married
@@themegatonmenace1224 I like that idea! She saves him, flipping the script, but only by relying on the growth and lessons she got from him. Like it could be something where her default setting of brute force wouldn't work, so she has to be more tactical & use restraint.
Batgirl is the one who is bad for Starfire's character. The Batwriters slutshamed Starfire and retconned her relationship with Nightwing into a meaningless sexual fling just to make Barbara look like the superior love interest to him.
I feel like DC tries to downplay Dick and Kory’s relationship as nothing but meaningless sex and that they never truly loved each other when that’s not true. DC could have expanded on their relationship if they just got rid of the storyline with Dick saving Kory which leads to a almost marriage then break up. no matter what DC always tries to push Dickbabs when it’s obvious Dick and Kory will always be a fan favorite, it seems Dick and Babs feel too close to date they feel like cousins or friends.
@@kittensruleforever fr like when they put Stephanie and Tim together also Barbara literally admitted he felt like a little brother to her, then dc had to age her down and suddenly she didn’t feel that way
hearing you say OTP out loud and not abbreviated… god, it’s been so long since i heard “one true pair(ing)” out loud, i almost forgot OTP stood for something 😭
I don't think the damsel in distress getting saved trope is a bad or overdone thing. Vulnerability is one of the most important qualities to portray in any good romantic ship. And while it's harder to make a super powered mighty space princesses look vulnerable, it's still important to see it somehow, and see her romantic partner pull through in sheltering and taking care of her when she's vulnerable. If it feels overdone, it's only because we're not seeing enough of the reciprocated vulnerability with Dick needing Starfire to come and rescue him when he's in over his head too
I would argue that the damsel in distress thing hasn't been overdone in Western entertainment for decades. But people think a female character being vulnerable is a bad thing.
Yup. I thought the idea was cute. Besides, women like when they're held by strong men in such protective and caring manner, I'd have eaten it all up if the story was published lol.
Both DC and Marvel have a history of breaking up fan favorite couples over and over again just for drama DC Green Arrow x Black Canary Batman x Catwoman Red Robin x Spoiler Batman x Zatanna Nightwing x Starfire Marvel Gambit x Rogue Cyclops x Jean Grey Cyclops x Emma Frost Spider-Man x Mary Jane Spider-Man x Black Cat
Batman X Zatanna sounds like a power couple, why haven't i heard of it? Also, what are the statuses for those couples currently now?(Besides the spiderman ones).
Gonna sucks when that inevitably happens to Tony Stark x Emma Frost. Like seriously, despite the editors making it clear that their marriage is only temporary just for the Fall of X event, the two have WAY too good of a chemistry to be seen as a loveless relationship.
Idk, I feel like it's good that Tim and Steph aren't in a relationship anymore. It finally gave Steph the chance to become more than "Tim's grilfriend", which is the role she had since she returned after New 52. They weren't even in a relationship anymore after Steph dies. They just returned her as his girlfriend cause editorial acted like nobody cared about her otherwise.
Any hero or good guy with Emma Frost is a disaster, anyway. She even mind r*ped Storm when Emma was part of the Hellfire Club but now younger fans think she is a girlboss. Great villain, awful hero.
This... just this. Dick running out on Kory on their wedding day to sleep with Batgirl/Oracle made me ditch the comic. Could not be brought back to the point where I could care any more.
I can count on one hand, the number of times a pair of superheros got married and stayed married. and if you wanna talk about happily married I can only think of one example.
One of the main reasons I hate Batman in DC Comics is that he keeps every other member of the Batfamily from becoming their own character. They always have to be there stand around for Batman's events to let the reader know that shit's gotten real and that it's all hands on deck, but don't expect them to do anything cool.
That's moreso DC's fault, since Batman usually encourages his family to grow and explore. Next-gen characters are hard to make independent because you're always looking at their roots. Tim's the main example, as over the past decade, DC has shown they don't know what to do with him, and anything that they try is usually a poor decision that they blame Tim on, criticising him as indecisive--plus shaming him for wanting to stay as Robin (hated Dick for telling him to give the role to Damian when Damian plans on growing beyond it anyway).
I hate him because DC does a weird overpowering thing with him despite his whole gimmick being that he has no powers. He solos the whole justice league wItH PrEp TiMe. Just feels like shoving other characters down to make him look good. Plus his fans are annoying as hell.
I do not hate Batman but I hate what he has become. I hate what DC have turn him into. And I hate the way DC treats Tim. It is no different from their abuse towards Wally. They just hate next gen character because they are out of touch old men who do not care what the fans want!
personally i think kory should have more stories on her own for them to work in modern continuity if bat editorial doesnt want to ever confirm it then its better if they had elseworlds stories with them married and introduce nightstar as a recurring character
Kori really needs more stories on her own...and stationing her in a fictionopolis in Florida would be nice again...the Key West idea was fun, but superheroes work best in fictionopolis' that vaguely resemble a real city rather than the real city...so maybe Citrus Loch (a fictional name for another of the Florida Keys.)
@@kevintanza6968 any character can work if the author cares enough, i mean hawkeye wasnt the highest profile hero and was introduced in a team and he has one the best comic thats come out in the modern age
I always liked the couple just because it shows how different Dick is from Bruce. It’s a better representation of how Nightwing isn’t bound solely to the “mission.”. He’s a people person, and he is far more capable of integrating into the wider DC universe than Batman is. Dick and Bard always struck me more as an incestuous idea of solely being partners within the Bat family. This serves more as a self contained bubble instead of an integration into the DC universe. I feel they were better characters when they were separate. Barb as Oracle was perfect cause she could show up in any DC book and make sense not being restricted to Gotham, and showing the long term impact of one of DC’s best stories. Nightwing on the other hand wanted to be Nothing like Batman, and struck out on his own. He disagreed with the way Batman was going so he left. He founded the Titans, and within that team started going to other Dimensions/Worlds outside the self contained nature of Gotham. I know Batman does stuff like that as well but Batman would also be perfectly fine just staying in Gotham and doing his own thing.
Oh just let Nightwing be happy with his current girlfriend and puppy. Why break up a good healthy relationship? Also Starfire doesn't fit with Nightwing's setting anymore. She is way too powerful, it would be like is Supergirl or Wonder Woman moved to Gotham.
And yet there was a significant amount of Batman fans who liked Wonder Woman and Batman together but it’s the same as you mention. Nightwing can operate with the titans again and honestly he should. Dc had no problems breaking up Star and Dick’s healthy happy relationship before and try to downplay it. Really shows they know how good the relationship was to go out of their way to try to dismiss it. As if his relationship with Barb isn’t on good enough foundation without doing that.
@@huntertezz It's not really a good relationship. Back when she was wheelchairbound, and Oracle, Dick kept talking about how much better her time as Batgirl was, which obviously upset her and they (understandibly) broke up about it. They only got back together once Babs was able to walk again. She also casually stalks him in some runs, by installing hidden cameras in his home. They aren't good for eachother.
@@senittoaoflightning4404 No they got back together before she could walk, got engaged, broke up and then got married in convergence. They broke up because Barbara thought Dick's was becoming more serious and more like Bruce and that also he was cheating on her with Tarantula. But honestly like every Dick Grayson breakup (including Starfire) it was forced and Barbara felt ooc.
The annoying thing is that he’s with Batgirl now and their relationship is so annoying because apart form a relationship Batgirl serves no purpose in the story and Taylor continues to shove Batgirl in stories she shouldn’t be in like we see her in the Titans run as tech support when they have Cyborg who could do her job 10 times better
You mean Oracle. And she is the tech support for every team not just Titans. Also her taking on that job frees Cyborg to focus on fighting in the frontlines instead of support.
@huntertezz doesn't make sense tho Cyborg can be ten times more efficient and still fight they don't need to be told who to fight they are there read the titans run and see how irrelevant her advice is also looking at the Nightwing comic run she doesn't serve that great if a purpose
@@eolan7567 Its still reduces his workload. And I think Oracle is helping out because the Titan's are main hero team so she is also coordinating multiple heroes outside the Titans as well.
@huntertezz in the titans book they only ever show her helping them she just follows Nightwing around wherever he goes which doesn't do anything for her character
@@eolan7567 In the titans book. You are looking at her from a limited perspective Oracle coordinates heroes around the globe and manages multiple. There is a reason why Batman added her to the Justice League and Waller got her to manage the Suicide Squad at one point. Taylor doesn't write her well but even in his stories like Beast World we see her coordinate many heroes not part of the Titans. She doesn't just follow Nightwing.
My opinion is you're the best couple in DC history and somehow and some way They always screw it up she's better than Barbara Gordon no offense to her but Starfire is the best 👍
honestly I don’t have a problem with them breaking up, people change and move on with their lives. what I find frustrating is how dc has continuously tried to retcon their relationship into just being about teenage hormones when in reality they deeply cared for each other and really helped each other grow
That's ecactly it.Kory is an important person in terms of Dick's character development.DC seriously damages not only their relationship but also their chatacters.They contributed a lot to each other. While Dick thaught Kory to control his emotions,Kory made Dick embrace the existence of emotions and Dick chose to grown up and be Kory's man. Even if they couldn't be together,Dick's was always grateful to Kory for being his biggest support in his path to becoming Nightwing.
Absolutely! Them breaking up was never the problem for me. It was how DC handled their relationship after that makes me grind my teeth. People grow, they change, and so do their feelings. Just because you fall out of love with someone doesn’t mean it wasn’t real love. It doesn’t mean that person isn’t still important to you.
Nightwing and Batgirl is the most insecure relationship i've ever seen. It can't stand on it's own without crapping on Starfire and retconning a lot of their histories just to prop up Barbara as his superior love interest. I don't know why DC is so obsessed with making Barbara look superior, she's just a typical basic white woman compared to Starfire who is a superpowered alien princess. Plus Barbara looks like his step-sister.
@@yarc9 No they're not their relationship is built on undermining and slutshaming Starfire to prop up Barbara as the better woman for him, Batwriters also tend to turn Nightwing into a one happy go lucky himbo to make Barbara look like the smarter woman in their relationship and they keep shackling him to the Batfamily by putting him in a relationship with a Bat-girl instead of letting him be fully independent and build his own life and own relationship outside the Batfamily. Everything about them is forced ooc retcons. Writers have to rewrite their histories and alter their personalities and erase the other important people in their life just to make their relationship work, Barbara was even originally 7 years older than him but they deaged her and made her the same age as him so she can fit him. Their relationship is regressive for all characters.
@@yarc9 The Batwriters are also responsible for making Nightwing a cheater, they're the ones who published that retcon in 2007 where they made Nightwing cheat on Starfire with Barbara the day before their wedding just to make Barbara look like his one true love. That retcon slutshamed Starfire and assasinated Nightwing's character just to boost up Barbara in his life. Nightwing was originally not a cheater, he was a one woman loyal man, and he was never pining on Barbara when he was in a committed serious relationship with Starfire from 1980-1994 as Barbara was originally a congresswoman who was 7 years older than him when he was still a young boy in highschool, he fully moved on from Barbara and started dating Starfire. Nightwing and Starfire's wedding was written in 1993 while the Batwriters only invented that cheating retcon in 2007. His forced retcon relationship with Barbara is pretty much toxic to all the characters.
Technically, in Kingdom Come Kory and Dick have a daughter together (aka Mar'i Grayson).... that ends up with Bruce and Talia's son (technically a different character than Damien, and named Ibn).
I know it’s ridiculous. This ship is one of the best things the whole universe has it going for them and they still can’t get get them together in the comics in a nice, healthy relationship. They keep pushing Barbara and Dick but they’re so boring at this point and so overused. Long-standing case of comic writers screwing over the good things they have.
Something like that happened in the book series Tara Duncan, a demon took the apparence of the main character to sleep with her boyfriend who believed it was the main character. And everyone in the book behave like if it was his fault, at that point I understood that the series had lost its quality to a point that it would never regain the quality of the first books
tbh i put it more on the cheating side than the assult side THE REASONING being its been stated they've been dating for 4 years and the son of the Worlds Greatest Detective should've realized that wasnt Kory ESP during sex
@@addisondrake733 Dick is not Tim. He's not that good a detective. He learned how to strategize take downs, mission and the link but he's not in detective mode all the time like Tim or Bruce who are much better at that stuff. He's a leader and a hero but he's no detective
this is just something that will always piss me off. i like him and babs, but they don't hold a candle to him and kory !! and the fact that editorial KNOWS they're the more popular (and better) couple and STILL don't putting them together despite it being a poor choice for his character development just pisses me off even more
Isn’t amazing that the editors force them apart for this long now and they are still THIS popular? If that doesn’t make them iconic, I don’t know what does.
@@OzEtlar Well they did have a cartoon. There are several noncomic couples that became very popular because of cartoons like Raven x Damian or Zatanna x Nightwing.
@@huntertezz Nah. Those are moderately popular but not the way Nightwing and Starfire are, and who can blame the audience, they were together for decades and would have had comic adventures as a married couple if the bat-editors did not dictate their break up. Even their Elseworld children are popular. To be fair, Kingdom Come is one of the most popular Elseworlds and that have Mar’i Grayson.
I’ve been wanting to get into DC comics because of this pairing and finding this out pissed me off so bad 😭 So they broke them up because they wanted Dick to be a Batman focused character and that meant him leaving the Titans? Why did they pair him with Batgirl after that decision and do him and Barb get married?
Thank you for this helpful video and their whole history! My sister and I are more Anime fans, we watched the whole Cartoon Network Teen Titans cartoon series together last summer (2023). My sister asked me what happened to Robin and Starfire, canonically and did they ever really get together. Since I don’t know anything about everyone’s lore and history, this helped me understand and I appreciate the video! Thank you!☺️💖
Although I do love the ship even if they don’t end up together I would still be ok if starfire was made more into her own character. Like a standalone starfire comic that focuses on her being a space alien princess would hit so hard. It’s a shame DC has all these characters they don’t utilize and let waste away in the sidelines.
To be fair, in the early 90s, the Titans weren't that popular. Basically Titans Hunt was a real jump the shark moment for the Titans. This wasn't the same early 80s situation, where Batman was actually about to be dropped (before Frank Miller came along, at least).
To be fair Raven & Robin got along really well with both looking great while having parental issues. Raven would also end up with a Robin namely Damian. Just saying Teen Titans 03-07 handled Robin's & Starfire much better
"No- - Don't Go - - Don't. I love You! I Love You!" I swear DC has some of the _cringiest_ writing on the planet when it comes to romance. But Idk, maybe that's how women really act around Chad/Tyrone. Those Japanese harem Mangas aren't much better.
I've always preferred Dick and Kori over Dick and Babs. People have mentioned it, but Dick/Babs really gives first relationship. Plus, I love Mar'i Grayson. I'll be honest and say the og Teen Titans did make me a little bias. Maybe it would be different if I watch Batman TAS first. But ah well.
0:32 Batgirl x Nightwing sucks hard I will always prefer Dick with Kori over Barbara anyday plus Barbara and Dick are better off as brother and sister sucks Kori and and Dick relationship got ruined in the comics.
Supposedly Teen Titans Academy wanted to rekindle their romance but Taylor's Nightwing was pushing DickBabs. I don't mind DickBabs but how it tends to involve downplaying Kory and her relationship with Dick forever irks me forever as well as DC insisitng on keeping the BatFam so insular. I would not be surprised even if DickKory ever did get married either under Wolfman or Thibert someone would eventually divorce or retcon them away so they could focus on DickBabs or single Dick or whatever they wanted much like DC did with Clark/Lois. DC is supposedly finally going to do their own Ultimate Universe that sticks but maybe with DickKory do an Ultimate Spider-Man and let them be married with kids. Springboard a next gen Teen Titans again that hopefully doesnt' suck because lord know that title seems cursed for the time being.
I like Starfire but her entire story arc is centered around Nightwing, I prefer her to grown into her own character with other potential love interest.
To be honest, and I know I'm late on this, DC just doesn't have any talented writers who can balance a healthy relationship with a hero's obligation to fighting evil. The ones that I can think of in modern times are Geoff Johns, Dan Jurgens, and Chuck Dixon. Although, the latter was more prevalent in the 1990s.
For a long time I thought they did get married and had a family, I was very sad to find out that was someone's fanwort (still, those fan comics were really cute)
I hate how Dick is a borderline bimbo now. I think Kory was meant to be the flame bird to his Nightwing. I liked that the gold in his first two Nightwing suits were for her and I loved the New 52 Nightwing and Flamebird Kryptonian god’s where Nightwing is creation and Flamebird is destruction, a good parallel for the two.
I feel like when written properly they bring out the best in each other in a way that no other couple they’ve had with anyone else works. I’d love to see them together growing as a couple. Side note I dislike the break up of Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown. Nightwing is smarter and a better leader with depth when he’s with her, Kory’s rage and edge are seen more clearly with Dick. They have less depth when they are apart
I wish Kory was the one who went to Dick when he was Rick Grayson and she takes care of him. Barbara legit was upset that he didn’t remember her and she let KGBeast go with Batwoman to go after him while she was with Jason Bard. Kory would’ve murdered KGBeast even if she and Dick weren’t together
Im new to reading comics and their behind-the-scenes politics, but I can see how fans are frustrated with how the editors are stuck in a feedback loop. I would love to see Kori and Dick finally get their happy ending. Maybe, the DCAU will save us
Thank you for this. I just hard that Barbara and Dick had a baby. I am SO upset. Like, Barbara has Luke Fox and soooo many other men that mesh much better with her. Like, whyyyyyy.
A lot of not great stuff has happened for the sake of keeping Batman at the forefront of everything DC. It explains a lot of how many outside of comics view these characters.
I still really like the Dick and Kori relationship but I definitely prefer Dick and Barbara storywise for a couple reasons: For one, 90s Nightwing series and Birds of Prey series was just really, really good, highly recommend if you haven't already, and it did a great job showing Dick and Barbara as a couple But secondly, and most importantly Dick and Kori, to me, has always read as each other's first real relationship, like 2 teens who fell n love and have 0 idea wtf they're doing. Starfire felt like Dick Grayson's dream girl, this powerful royal from another planet who fights crime in basically a bathing suit, I mean, that's just every teen boy's fantasy girl right there. In the original series, we see the cracks in this relationship because New Teen Titans loved drama and we got to see all these relationship issues laid bare. These two weren't the best at communicating (especially Dick), these two had different expectations about a relationship but failed to communicate them, Dick was going through this rough transition from being Batman's sidekick to being a solo hero and that would sometimes take priority over the relationship, and Kori's personailty revolved around having incredibly strong emotions and so she was STRONGLY in love with Dick which can be very problematic in soecific circumstances. My other major problem with this relationship is that it backs Kori into a corner. Everyone just kinda writes Kori in ths corner of "the sexy alien who dated Nightwing" and honestly, that's just what they have been doing with her since New Teen Titans ended. Starfire is barely allowed any characterization aside from hot and dated Nightwing, that is practically all she is in most stories which sucks. Not only does Starfire have a very defined personality in New Teen Titans but she's also THE PRINCESS OF AN ENTIRE PLANET!!! Why are we doing nothing with that? Why are we so hung up on the fact that she fucked Dick Grayson, she's literal royalty with a planet she cares for containing citizens that she faught an intergalactic war to protect. Yet, she keeps getting dragged back to Earth with seemingly no care about her planet. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but there's no place on Earth for Kori. She came to Earth to escape slavery instesd of escaping to her planet because she feared what would happen to her planet and her people if she returned, faught an intergalactic war to save her people, and married someone she didn't love just to protect her people. Earth will always be her second home but Tamaran is her planet, the Tamaranians are her people, she should be with them as their princess and, eventually, queen. This would also give her a lot more to do than on Earth where all she could really do is tie herself to Nightwing or be on the Titans again, now we can see her in more space centered stories. For a short time in the comics, she was a member of REBELS, a new version of the LEGION after LEGION had been corrupted by Brainiac 3, an inter-galactic police force that is hired by different planets with its leader as Brainiac 2. It is such an underrated part of the DC Universe and Kori was characterized well (besides the Captain Comet relationship) and added a new dynamic to that team, but unfortunately Kori only joined REBELS halfway into 2010 and New 52 would happen a little over a year later. Maybe create a new version of that team for her to be aajor player in, maybe reunite her with Adam Strange and Animal Man, those 3 had an interesting dynamic when going up against Lady Styx in 52, stop destroying Tamaran in every major story we see it in. Starfire can be so much more than Dick's girlfriend of ex-girlfriend, let her have her own story separate from Dick, the Titans, and Earth, let her be the queen of her people, just let her do more than what people keep having her do. Thank you for reading my TedTalk.
Fun fact, the only reason why Starfire and Dick were made to breakup was because of an editorial Mandate to separate the Bat Family from the rest of the DCU so that it could be more like the cartoon, ironically the very same cartoon had Babs get with Bruce. In order to break up Dick and Star, they had to have Raven go crazy and break them up. And keep they actually were engaged at the time. So it was seeks Serious do much do that DC has a few books that have pointed out that if they stayed together, then Dick would be happil married and satisfied with his life. Dick and Babs while we do see them have some good times ultimately they are also two fundamentally different people. And more often than not bring out the absolute worst in each other. More often than not in order to push him with Babs they tend to have Dick act more like a well, Dick
@@brightlight8852 Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle had pre-flashpoint Nightwing and Oracle get married (this was before that universe got merged with New 52). Prior to that, they were engaged in Nightwing #117 but then One Year Later timeskip and then they weren't engaged anymore.
@oldchannel3659 I meant in an actual series and not just a flash of it, and it says a lot that it took to 2015 for that to even be depicted at all. I've noticed that this issue with Dick and Babs is that they really aren't shown in a long-term healthy relationship. Rather, the story only ever flashes to the good times, which are very few and far between, often with no build up, where they've reached a milestone only to break up. I know that DC wants to say that Dick will end up together but at this point it feels forced.
I’ve always been a Kori-Dick shipper. She is one of the most kind hearted and free spirited characters in the DC universe, and she deserves to be happy after all that she’s suffered. No offense to Barbara, but Kori has a much more distinctive personality and is a less obvious choice. I don’t know I’m going to get a lot of pay for this, but I’m very sick of the fictional trip where the primary character has a romance with a person of color, but in the end chooses the white girl or boy (besides Dick, Harry Potter, Ginny Weasley, etc.). This was probably not intentional, at least in regards to Dick, but it’s there. I also love what they did to the character of Dick Grayson, during the time that he was engaged to Kori and slept with Barbara, then handed her his wedding announcement. I’m very glad DC has gotten over that garbage period. Kori deserves to be with someone who appreciates her; she’s an underwritten, very powerful character who male writes for years reduced to Dick’s girlfriend or the girl who’s heart he played with (with an implied blame on Kori for daring to be so gorgeous and open-hearted).
I liked Kori's and Dick's relationship but i personally fine with DC choosing Barbara and Dick given everything they've been through Also honestly its a win win Dickori fans have Teen Titans and DCAU where Dickori is Canon Meanwhile Babs x Dick fans have the comics where they're canon
MY SUGGESTION IDEA TO THE WRITERS OF (DC COMICS) ABOUT A METAHUMAN NIGHTWING: I imagine in a different realm, a variant of Richard “Dick” Greyson, he was exposed to some unknown element, he survived being exposed to it. A few months later, after he had recovered from feeling ill, from being exposed to the unknown element, he slowly developed abilities. It’s later revealed that this unknown element, is an ancient magical mineral, but this fragment of the mineral was added to, a mysterious chemical compound. The combination of these two subjects, made it possible for NightWing, to become a MetaHuman, and develop abilities. In addition it also gave (Richard “Dick” Greyson) a few magical powers as well. To add I imagine later, he developed the magic power, to create energy-plasma wings, by just imagining them. Plus to add I imagine in time Dick aka NightWing, he later figured out, how to envision other forms, of stuff with his magic powers.
I can see why people ship dick and barbara since they are the og couple and im sure they did have some really romantic moments in certain adaptations. That being said, its REALLY hard for audiences that grew up with the cartoons to get behind it bc of the whole batman sleeping with her situation. Like i know they do some funky stuff with starfire in certain adaptations but to my knowledge, they never adapted it to TV, which is usually how general audiences remember the couple. For me personally, i remember dick x barbara’s relation based off of the batman the animated series universe lore, which regretfully has some elements of bruce x barbara. That was my first exposure to that couple so i feel like it really soured my first impression of their relationship. On the other hand, my first exposure to dick x kori was the 2006 teen titans show, which did a really good job of making me like them as both friends and a couple
I mean to be fair DC also killed off Batman's best love interest Silver St. Cloud. Bruce was truly happy with Silver but DC went full Hulk Hogan and said "That doesn't work for me brother". DC and Marvel love ruining their most iconic couples. I'm shocked they haven't ruined Lois Lane and Clark Kent's relationship yet. I still haven't forgiven Marvel for One More Day. Peter and MJ deserve to be happy.
I don't remember what it was in, I think a Titans comic, but I remember, and this is what settled it for me, that Kory and Dick after this battle with Raven brothers were alone in a pool and having this moment, they kissed but Kory stopped him before they went further and asked him if he loved her and he said "You know I do." But she clarified that what she was asking is "Do you realy love me as your forever person" Dick froze for a second and thought about it then looked her in the eye and said "NO". I think you showed that panel. Dick was faced with a similar situation with Babs and he said that she is his ending and the one he can't live without.
@@yeahyeah9089 I don't KNOW if it was a retcon but unless I read or hear it from the writers themselves I want take anyone's words as they did it because they hate them. Because no matter what they can't release it without approval from the top.
@@huntertezz Nah, it's a retcon. Writers can come in and establish what they want. That's why modern comics suck. No consistency. They could be together next week if a new writer decides it.
@@kevintanza6968 How would it count as a retcon? That's like saying Dick becoming Nightwing is a retcon. Its not a retcon it just how the character has grown and changed. He just moved on. If they said Nightwing never loved or wanted to commit to Starfire that would be a retcon. How is it inconsistent. At that point Nightwing hasn't been in a relationship with Starfire for a long time. And to this day he hasn't been relationship with her for decades since their break up.
6:17 Nah Bro, that was SA, he didnd't "Kinda Cheated" Mirrage took Kory's Form and when in bed said "I want to try something New" what Dick just accepted. IT WAS NOT HIS FAULT and even Kory getting Mad was a sh*t Move 😤 I LOVE Dickory, but that was one of the things I genuinly hated the Authors doing!! They haven't been together in Years but at least I have the AU with them having Ma'ri and Jake Grayson. Love those fanart things that have them all 4 as one family 🥹 Hope some day the comics put them back together
tbh, DC ruined the relationship a lot of times but let me tell you. why not make starfire and robin just friends, like literally im so tired of the rebreaks up happening monthly.
WAIT !!!! At the 10:23 mark, is that picture dated 1991? Does that mean Art Thibert gets a bit of credit for the mainstream Nightwing costume that debuted in 1995??
DC and Marvel really did everything to screw over their hot redheads. Spider-man and Mary-Jane gone due to the worst story line. Jean and Scott, though I like Emma and Scott why? Starfire and Dick? Gone and while I love Barbara I kind of like her by herself more.
To me Barbara is who Dick is meant to be with. It’s the kids who hated each other growing up end up falling for each other. To me Kori is the girl you date then realize that although she’s perfect for you in almost every way and you do love her there’s also Barbara. She’s just Barbara she’s always there for you and something about her completes you. Kori is the girl you want to be with but Barbara is the one you need to be with. I will also say that who he’s with will change depending on 2 factors who the writer is and what the age you are. Most Kori and Dick shippers (in my experience) grew up with the Teen Titans Cartoon. While Dick and Barbara shippers grew up with The Batman (2004) or BTAS. If you’re a comic book fan you know that who he’s with depends on the writer. DC has been focused on the Barbara and Dick relationship because that’s the story Tom Taylor wants to tell. To him Street level characters are more interesting when they stay street level. Having Nightwings girlfriend be able to fly over and one punch all his villains so they can spend more time together isn’t as inherently interesting as his girlfriend helping him track down a drug dealer using the oracle system so he can make a date is more interesting at least to me it isn’t.
Except they weren't kids together, Barbara was way older than him originally, he just had a puppy crush on her. also the dynamic between dick and kory is much more fun and interesting then what you described , and it really sets him apart from bruce. By that logic you probably would have a problem with teen titans anyways because nightwing is the only one without superpowers , but that team is still very iconic, so obviously your wrong in saying street level characters have to stay street level to be interesting. also you can't "need" to be with someone wtf are you talking about? half of that first paragraph was random garbage that made no sense. and besides in BTAS (in the batman beyond comics) Barbara cheats on him w bruce.
@@wasuptghowarfd if you go off of golden age comics yes Dick and Barbara did not grow up together. If you go off of the comics we are actually talking about, that being post crisis continuity, Barbara started as Batgirl in her teen and Dick started as Robin when he was 8 but they were only 3 years apart in age and they even went to the same high school. I wasn’t giving my logic. I was specifically talking about Tom Taylor’s run on Nightwing. I didn’t say Street level characters have to stay street level I said that story wise it takes away tension when you can call your teams equivalent of Superman at any time. Your point about Barbara cheating on Dick in an alternate reality controlled by a perv means absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. If you got with that logic Dick literally cheated on StarFire with Barbara the night before their wedding then doesn’t end up going through with the wedding.
these editorials always breaking up good couples, also must i say there's a couple that i love but they would never occur and not because of editorial, but just the legal ways needed, that is Tim Drake x Jubilee (well it would have been possible if Amalgam ever had Raptor and Sparrow meet). the few chapters of that crossover are so nice and awesome.
Literally me leaving DC main stuff was due to seeing this type of non sense to many times and even marvel to mostly the one last day stupidity wish I saw less of it and thanks to your video I know another and that sucks
