The Science of Durdling; a Fallout Deck Upgrade Guide 

All the doublers possible 👍

Also, roll d20s, if possible

Probably because the most expensive card recommended here is just over ten USD and KCI is over forty USD. That and everyone already knows KCI is broken, even before this new combo.

I think you are right. I had sac outlets in my draft, but blanked on KCI on my first draft and pass, and then cut them for time. Think I need to make a short.

@@jman667755 I'm pretty sure a lot of the decks that want this combo are already running KCI, but yeah would be nice to see a reprint in like MH3 or something to knock the price down a bit

@@cedarbobedar7223KCI is banned in Modern…

Can confirm. I don't have any sort of Fallout nostaligia, but the way the wise mothman works is different enough from any other deck I have that it's fun.

I've absolutely avoided EDH Rec and other Upgrade guides for these myself. I think its valuable to know what your peers are doing; but im instead trying to give "my first thoughts on the direction" That said I watched one yesterday as this was uploading that was saying to cut Nuka-Cola, and that inspired the thumbnail.

Coming soon! Just released the mutant one!

@@PleasantKenobi Yes I just saw that one. That's the one I bought, so will be watching soon!

LOL Each game I have played against someone's Mutant deck has resulted in them dying from their own radiation counters meanwhile Science! marches on accepting a little Radiation for the benefits of a better tomorrow least that is what Vault-tec told me to write :P

No you are misunderstanding what part is being replaced in both instances. Nuka-Cola Machine says "Whenever you sacrifice a Food, create a tapped Treasure token." Academy Manufactor effectively replaces the word "Treasure" with "Food, Clue, and Treasure." making it read "Whenever you sacrifice a Food, create tapped Food, Clue, and Treasure tokens." Similar rule if you have something like Parallel Lives making you create two tapped treasures. In the case of Shelob all Academy Manufactor is seeing is you making a Food, and will therefore replace EVERYTHING Shelob is doing with you making a normal Food, Clue, and Treasure token. Same thing happens if you make a token copy of something like Gingerbrute, you don't get the Gingerbrute but you do get a Food, Clue, and Treasure. In other words if you have Manufactor in your Shelob deck it's actually more of an anti-combo and you should consider removing it. Or you get to point this out to someone else in your play group that does this.

You are incorrect. What I said about the tapped tokens is correct. I double checked with a judge before making the video

That's what I am hoping too. I love brainstorming new stuff, and talking about old interactions - want to share that with newer players.

Commander Sphere supremacy.

@PleasantKenobi for 3p cheaper you can hit your curve or play commander sphere and draw you 35th land when you needed a putrify

Mill is good.

If a source makes a tapped one of the three, it makes a tapped one of each of them. Weird quirk.

Yes. It doesn't change the tapped bit.

I wanted to play with the decks before commenting on them where possible. And yes, I wasn't considered important enough as an influencer or voice to get sent the Fallout product. That is how it felt, and how it looks. If you find that off putting, I don't know what to tell you. Preview content is much better than late to the party content.

No. If Manufactor replaces the token generation, it doesn't change them from being tapped.

@@PleasantKenobi my apolgies didnt know this

Unfortunately... that is unlikely to happen. Those in-universe reprints have like zero value.

Better to have that "Rule 0" discussion. If they are running lots of fast mana into tutors to infinite combos on turn 4... I'd rather not waste my time.

@@MaleusMaleficarum (this is long so there's tldr at the bottom. It sounds more blunt and standoffish tho, fair warning) I get where you're coming from but even the most competitive decks have trouble winning early unless the stars align. This is particially because it's a singleton format with 99/98 card decks and partially because of that players opponents and the interaction they can bring to the table. That interaction is split realatively evenly throughout the color pile. Granted certain colors are worse off than others, but that doesn't default to those colors always losing anymore. If this was still early-mid 2010's it would be a different story, but is not colors are way more well rounded nowadays. Even mono colored and casual decks can absolutely rinse competative pods because those competative decks tend to be really fragile. Proxies are widely accepted, even crappy ones and they're even largely allowed in tournaments for specifically edh. So not running cards that stop you from loosing to either a combo or a value oriented deck is kind of your own fault. It isn't really fair to expect someone to compromise on their own gameplan to compensate for your shortcomings as a player. Cedh is a really grindy format right now, largely in part because of cards typically deemed okay in casual pods. The name of the game is advantage peices and hyper specifc stax peices. The key words there are definetly hyper specific, yeah a dranith magistrate or collector ouph might suck because it stop your commander or artifacts, but it doesnt lock people out of the game in casual like maybe an Armagedon affect or contamination might which nobody really plays because those cards are bad and feel bad to play. Like a table full of people that dont heavily rely on tutors are not going to care about your graftdiggers cage or opposition agent. Worse case scenario, you steal like a cultivate or something and the opposition agent SHOULD be removed. Again sometimes the stars allign and nobody has it, but if your pod is running an appropriate ammount of interaction then a single 3/2 wouldn't really be the end of the world. If 3+ whole ass people can't answer a single spell or creature regardless of if it's part of a combo or not, you can't really place the blame on whoever played the card or series of cards. There are combos and things that should be banned, primarily thoracle not because its impossible to interact with tho. Rnd not doing their job isn't really the cedh communities fault, and that is its own issue that we can talk about and possbly find some common ground if you want. Rule zero discussions are typically a bad idea. They are often ineffective because casual players respond to cedh by metaphorically burrying their head in the sand, so casual players dont really understand whats good and use sweeping generalized rules to try and dictate whats okay to play in this game. Like ive never heard ad nasuem get brought up in a rule 0 conversation and its legitimately one of the strongest singular cards in cedh. Even casual players can be inconvenienced by rule 0 discussions and expecting someone to change a chunk of their deck on the fly for your benefit is selfish and isnt really a fair thing to ask of someone. Theres no reason why someone needs to be reasonable about their rule 0 requirements. Like what if someone got washed by an like idk an animar deck or something like that and just now eternally refuses to play with or cooperate with someone running that commander regardless of what their 99 actually contains? Do you think it's fair that person would shut down a potential 4 player pod that could of had a fun game because of their own biases? Now imagine how shitty that feels, but ad in the stress and anxiety that comes with it just being one person that effectively singled out and banned from playing a game like its elementary school. Finally you thinking a game that happens to be quick and desisive because the stars aligned or because of your or other people's lackluster deckbuilding choices as a "waist of time" is strictly your opinion and the same thing could easily be said about games that stretch out a reeaally long time without anything impactful happening besides just value shenanigans. Except unlike a game that lasts a half hour to an hour (possibly more) there's nothing stopping players from shuffling up and starting over after a quick game besides those players own opinions about this game and what's okay to play or not. TLDR: Cedh is slower than you think, you would know that if you bothered tollerating it. Casual decks can absolutely sweep cedh tables because of the inherent downsides that comes with having a super focused deck in singleton formats. If you consistently loose to something specific then it's because of solely your own and your pod-mates own shortcomings as players especially considering proxies eliminate any barrier of entry. Rule 0's discussion are unreasonable, inaccurate, it can affect people who play casually, and can definitely be extremely unreasonable based on one or two players biases. Expecting someone to change their gameplan because of your personal shortcomings and opinions is childish elementary school behavior and it's a selfish thing to subject other people too. A "cedh player" just wants to play a game with you, and you cant expect them to respect your wishes when you clearly don't respect their wishes. Finally getting mad because you lot a game, or the game didn't pan out how you intended is just as much your fault as it is the other player's and its the antithesis of what "casual" actually means.

@@B1ngusD1ngus dude. Your points are well articulated. That said... I'm not judging someone for wanting to run CEDH... I've seen CEDH decks get torn apart by precons with removal. It's far more about how I enjoy playing. I don't enjoy being in a pod that's trying to combo off on turn 4. I'm not going to ask somebody to change their deck... but I'm also REALLY unlikely to play them again if all they brought was something trying to win with Th-oracle.

@@MaleusMaleficarum I mean your more than able to make that decision. I still believe that refusing to participate in a game with someone for that reason in particular is kinda shitty, but idk. I personally wouldnt sit down at a fnm and concede a round becase im assuming i won't have fun, regardless if the event was really casual or competative. If I was a parent talking to my kid, I'd probably say "you can decide if you don't want to play with someone, but you should at least give them the benefit of the doubt and try, who knows you might have fun". Just keep in mind it can get shitty if the person who wants to play a "competative" deck like that is like "outnumbered" by the casual players. I get that sounds cringe but the conversation can quickly change from, "no thanks i personally dont play in this pod" to "no you cannot play with us, we do not like playing with you" and it really feels like you're getting singled out for kinda crappy reasons honestly. Like I said the barrier for entry is free, and running an appropriate amount of interaction is something you really want to be doing in casual anyways, tailoring that interaction to be more versatile that a bunch of board wipes can really make a pet deck better. You have a point with not liking thoracle tho. Like I said that combo is pretty broken, i didnt mention it im my comment before but intuition being unnbaned doesn't make any sense at all. I wish rnd would just do their job because it could help mitigate the gap between casual and competitive. Like rnd says that they refuse to ban for cedh but i gaurentee if something is good enough to be considered for banning in cedh then its probably a kitchen table killing machine, so to speak. Also they banned flash so claiming they dont ban for comp. doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me. My next few paragraphs are kind of uninimportant to the points above/common sense stuff if youre familiar with comp. so feel free to skip them. Thoracle is the cheapest win in the format in argueably the 2 best colors, it costs only 3 mana and its not vulnerable to straight up removal. Intuition gives multiple decks a 1 card win condition but it's like 10+mana to pull off. Still there's no phesable reason that gifts ungiven should be banned and a card that does basically the same thing at half the Mana isn't. The next fastest 2 card combo that wins on its own is probably dualcaster+twinflame at 6 mana or underworld breach+brainfreeze at 4 mana plus setup. Dualcaster+twinflame is vulnerable to removal. Nobody even plays dualcast+ twinflame because it's poorly situated with dranith magistrate, rule of law and such. Also underworld breach+brain freeze gets to abuse intuition pretty easily but it looses to any sorta graveyard hate and non-creature removal, so it's a lot more vulnerable that thoacle. Also if you Opposition agent a cedh deck's intuition they probably can't even win anymore after that because you can steal their win con and any backup they might have. A lot of people argue that kinnan is the best deck in the format because of how slow games tend to play out in practice. Those lists are really close to casual shells already. It plays tons of cards that you wouldnt expect. Consecrated sphinx, nezuhal, seedborn muse, ect. It's a cool list. If someone wanted to get into comp. I'd recommend either diversifying the interaction in their pet deck, or trying out kinnan.