The ancient game Red Storm Rising has the ability to do a playback of the mission when it ended. It was done without the fog of war so you could see who shot the sneaky torpedo or where the missile sub was hiding. It would be nice to have something similar in Sea Power.
that would be amazing, many old games had "replay" modes like that, racing games had amazing replay capability... modern games lack good replays when they have replays at all...
People have complained about "unrealistic" scenarios - but one theory, among many, is that the Soviets sunk the Scorpion. Others include one of her Mark 38 torpedoes exploding in the tube, a faulty torpedo fired off only to circle back, a battery fire or some other serious mechanical failure. The cause of her loss is still uncertain. RIP crew of the Scorpion. For those in peril on the sea.
@@vonderdynamite4435 Fact is you're thinking of something else, possibly the Kursk? The wreck site is known, it's in international waters off the Azores, and has been investigated several times by the US Navy and oceanographic contractors (including Robert Ballard)
Given the technology delta (if you'll pardon the expression) between the two navies (particularly the submarine forces) at the time, I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that the Soviets sank the Scorpion, unless by blind, blundering "luck". But it's a game, and a cool scenario, regardless of the relative realism.
At 24:30, your boat turned away because you ordered them to fire the torpedo at a point inside the minimum torpedo range. It was moving to a position where the target point you selected was outside minimum range, hence why it turned away, then it fired once it was far enough away.
From what I read Scorpion was supposed to get a full overhaul in 1967 but only received emergency repairs so she could get underway faster. Scorpion's original "full overhaul" was reduced in scope. Long-overdue SUBSAFE work, such as a new central valve control system, was not performed. Crucially, her emergency system was not corrected for the same problems that destroyed Thresher.
Those repairs were not performed because Scorpion was included in a program that was testing how wartime conditions of maintenance would effect readiness. They found out. The program was cancelled and every sub went through the subsafe process.
She also is thought to have been carrying at least one faulty torpedo that she shouldn't have been, owing to the rushed nature of her repairs and new deployment
I just want to say, your progress and learning really shows in this video. From learning to stay quiet and not bang away on active sonar to stopping or slowing down to reduce noise, all the way to knowing that you have to get out of the seeker-cone. I honestly think you got tripped up by using an Echo when you are more familiar with other soviet subs like the Victors or Alfas. If you decide to revisit this scenario again I am pretty sure you will do much better. P.S perhaps using some soviet conventional boats? I know you used the German ones which I loved alot, since conventional boats are super underrated in this game.
@@doktork3406 tbh I can see the game still has a few minor tweaks here and there to do. The MK48 in 1968, aerial combat and all still require work before this game becomes truly phenomenal.
@@thisherehandleIdospout True, but correct, sounds travels far under water, even distant cries. War isn't a game, never forget that. I bet the game devs won't add this feature. :D
@@RemusKingOfRome I was thinking more 'Soyuz nerushimmy respublik svobodnykh...' etc etc but you might remember the Hunt for Red October scene in question better than me
Tell the devs that the Mk 48 wasn't out till 1972. At the latest American subs should've had the Mk 37 around 1968. By all accounts, you should've had the better boat and weapons of the time.
Well maybe not the better boat, strictly speaking. Potentially better sonar, but surely not by much, not to mention a very slow, lumbering, and *loud* hull. The skipjack isn't exactly "stealthy" either, but at least it doesn't have 8 great big holes cut out of the hull. And the skipjack can make, what, 28 knots? 30? Also, directly from the dev's mouth, the reason there's no Mk 37 (yet) is because that weapon currently falls outside of the game's timeframe. The timeframe is early 70's to mid 80's, once the Mk 48 proliferated into service. 1968 is just a date in the editor. Like you can set your mission date to 1949 but you won't get Mk 27s and Mk 14s because the date is just flavor
Well picked up. Some US subs still had the Mk 14 torps at this time. Fun fact HMS Conqueror fired three 21-inch Mk 8 mod 4 torpedoes which were conventional, non-guided, torpedoes which had been in service from 1927 when it sank the Belgrano during the Falkland War. They had Mk 24 Tigerfish guided torps but there was extreme doubt as to their reliability at the time so the Captain of the Conqueror went old school. Wonder if the game will consider that because I am sure some people would like to recreate the Falkland War here.
@@davidwhitfield6025 I believe US Navy submarines still sometimes carried Mark 14 torpedoes (the ones that were infamously nonfunctional in the early days of WW2) until 1980, although they weren't in production by that point, for use against nonevading targets and the like. Why waste a modern homing torpedo on a merchant ship that has no idea you're there if you can lob a perfectly functional unguided relic that's been sitting in storage for thirty years at it?
I've loved watching you improve so much across these videos, Stealth, and I greatly appreciate the daily doses of Sea Power to quench my UNENDING THIRST for the game.
Minerve was located last June in 2023 roughly 40 miles from her home port. Indications are whatever overtook her did so rapidly. INS Dakar was an old second hand British sub they sold to Israel. It’s entirely possible she was not in the best shape. USS Scorpion is believed today to have suffered a torpedo battery explosion and that blew open one of the tubes, leading to fatal flooding which the sub was unable to overcome. K-129 was over 150 miles outside her patrol area and had 15 additional sailors brought on board prior to sailing. It’s suspected it was a KGB plot to nuke Hawaii via one of the subs missiles. It’s believed a missile safety device which the us sold to the Russians activated when the crew didn’t use the right arming code and that triggered an explosion which sank the submarine. I still believe the K-129 Salvage op was successful and they got the whole sub
Regarding your weapons load out (torpedo-wise) The Echo II Class had a total of six tubes four in the bow and two in the stern. The bow tubes were 65cm and the stern tubes were 40cm. Your 6 x SET-40 are fired from these tubes. Assuming one is carried in each tube that gives you 2 reloads per tube. Your 6 x SET-65 and 4 x 53-65K are fired from the bow tubes, making for a total of 10 weapons in the bow room. Assuming one is carried in each tube, that makes fore one reload per tube plus two more. Considering the Echo II is a SSGN, I feel like this is a reasonable weapons load out, but I cold be mistaken.
Something I am thinking of trying myself is replicating Operation Rheinübung but from the Soviet perspective. A Kirov and a Slava (representing Bismarck and Prinz Eugen) have sortied from the Barent Sea and are heading for the Denmark Strait to attack shipping. They are intercepted by an Iowa and a Ticonderoga (representing HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales). Two Perry class Destroyers are behind the Soviet group shadowing the Soviets (representing HMS Norfolk and Suffolk). The weather is too bad for flights and Soviet submarines are keeping the NATO Submarines occupied. From what I have seen so far the Soviets do have a strong chance of destroying all four American ships with those damned shipwreck missiles although the recent improvements in USN counter missile defence seems to have improved to give them some chance.
I was stationed at Lajes, AFB in 1968 as a security policeman when this happened. They brought in equipment to help with a searching efforts and which one was a deep diving type submarine or more than likely an unmanned submersible as I believe it went deep I can just barely picture the hanger and remembering guarding it on a couple of shifts. Watched everyone of your Videos I’m so looking forward to November 12
Once (I hope) the Royal Navy is in the game I hope the Falklands War is playable with the Belgrano incident. Also a reenactment of Operation Barmaid and HMS Swiftsure's 1977 shadowing of Kiev would be cool to see a video from. Mark 48 torpedoes did not exist until 1972 acording to Wikipedia.
This scenario is particularly interesting because it would fit really well into Cold Waters and is pretty much exactly the type of mission you'd do there, and it's interesting to watch and compare your gameplay between the two. I don't think Sea Power can fully 'replace' it yet, but it definitely has the potential to if the individual unit control becomes more fleshed out
Yeah I feel the same. The game needs direct Keyboard Controls for a single unit, so your submarine is more responsive. Also it seemed to me, that the American heard Stealth first (which was no wonder to me, since he was using a loud, old SSGN), since it seemed to home in directly on him from the moment he heard the US sub. I know Skipjacks still from Cold Waters, when I played a campaign with one... it really feels like hard mode, especially in the later campaign, worst sonar of the US submarine fleet and loud as hell.
I can't recall the exact number of torps for a November/Echo off the top of my head, but 16 torps total doesn't sound too far away from what I'd expect from a an early cold war era nuke sub.
Deary me....Echo sonar suite wasn't much better than having a crewman hold a glass against the hull and listen. Also, yes. 1968 is too early for an LA class. LA's began to be commissioned from 1976 onwards.
A November or Victor would make more sense. Unless the Echo was supost to be one of the ships testing their cruise missiles and end up detecting the SSN.
The cause of the Scorpion´s sinking is still debated but its noteworthy that although three expeditions to the wreck have been conducted only a handful of photopgraphs taken have been released to the public by 2024. What is known, judging by the available photos, is that Scorpion was ripped into three pieces. The photos and hand drawn wrecksite depictions show a detached conning tower and seperated bow and aft sections lying relatively far away from each other on the sea floor. What is suspicious is that none of the photos of the bow section show its middle part where the torpedo room was located. This is kind of a confirmation for the theories suspecting the cause of the sinking being located in that peticular spot, like the internal torpedo explosion theory.
Dr Ballard who discovered the titanic first went to the scorpion at the behest of the navy. He did indicate the scorpion had at least one of her outer torpedo tube doors blown outward and there was evidence of something blowing outward in the fore torpedo room
I think you targeted the last torpedo inside minimum range (yellow circle). So the boat sped up to get enough distance. You should have set the enabling point further out to allow shooting from your current position
I think maybe staying quiet and patient and identifying them first and hoping they don’t decide to shoot first. Echos are pretty quiet if I remember correctly.
Being quiet and patient is going to be the go-to strat for any sub. However I don't think the Echos were "pretty" quiet, even the in-game description calls them very noisy.
Not really. Jive Turkey said that the shape of the missile tubes make a lot of water noise. So even if the power plant is quiet-ish, the boat shape is not.
Echos had to surface and raise their cruise missiles to 15° up to fire them off. The “holes” in the sides are part of that requirement; and obviously less desirable hydrodynamically. However, no water flow, no noise from suboptimal outer shape …
@@abdurrehmannasir5963 “noisy” is very … depending on circumstances. If you have a noisy reactor you will always be noisy, but with a quiet reactor you should be pretty quiet at slow speeds …
'And then you've got the Alpha at 41 knots which is just bizzare' That speed is (more or less) historically accurate, I believe an Alpha or a related class holds the submarine speed record at 43 knots. If I remember correctly the US/NATO had to develop a whole new torpedo that was actually fast enough to catch them.
@@MagiconIce The Echo is a valuable system designed to hun stuff like carrier taskforces, and Amphibs it is far from silent enough to find and engage a SSN, they usually had their own escorts along in the shape of November class SSNs, also they had to surface to launch the Shadddock SSM (same millice carried by the Juliet, which was similar but a D/E sub. The Echo does have the speed to intercept a SSN, a more plausible scenario would be the Echo basically running for its life after delivering a strike on a surface group.
Mk48s didn’t enter service until the mid-1980s. The fact the date is 1961 and you have classifications showing up for Permit and Sturgeon SSNs is also disturbing. Hopefully they will fix these issues and others like it.
I mean, not that it would likely have helped much, but why didn't you just immediately surface after getting hit, there aren't any enemies above water that could threaten you.
Quite interesting to see older Soviet SSGN or SSG. Some of them even have to stay on the surface to guide missels, could make for a interesting convoy ambush. Convoy+escorts w some costal subs from france or germany vs a group of SSG(N?) that slipped by SOSUS PS: many soviet subs have stern mounted self defense tubes to engage ASW ships chasing them. The game wont tell you in its notes tho so its a bit of a guess game
Can you please let the developers know, the higher the speed and hight of an attack fighter, the longer the range of any weapons system, especially the anti-ship guided weapon, as the missles either loops or glide, also if the target is receding or flanking the range will decrease 😊.
not entirely sure - rear of the sub imploded but an explosion in front half which sinks the sub and then at crush depth everything with air still inside crumples.
Question for the devs, not related to the video. Not sure if this has been touched on, but where is the Kuznetsov carrier and its carrier aircraft? Things like the MiG-29k. To my knowledge they were indeed developed during the existence of the Soviet Union, so it should be able to be in the game? Open to any answers.
devs went with the Ulyanovsk- though it has navalized mig-23s and other aircraft like that- unsure if the later Soviet aircraft like the Su-27/33 or Mig-29/29K will show up atm, though we'll know when it drops in November
Good video! Do you know that we have also a working life? You ca´t make so much video in a short time! Especially not so much interesting videos! This is keeping us away from our jobs!🤣 I have an idea for a scenario! How it will be to play the USS Pueblo incident from 11. January 1968? North Corea is trying to catch the US spy vessel and you must try to defend the ship.
I like your early statement, "there is no conclusive evidence" followed by "I could be entirely wrong." You might be better off not making any kind of statement as to the veracity of this event if you can't make a definitive assertion followed by basically a denial of that assertion. Just food for thought for the future when trying to recreate a scenario where the classification of a mission and the lack of concrete evidence for it leaves you to have to make an assumption. Love your replays nevertheless and am looking forward to obtaining the game myself unless, for lack of funds, I don't ever buy it.
No, there was nothing the Soviet ships were doing in the vicinity of Scorpion worth risking a general war. However, there is the wreck of a Hotel class within short warning missile range of Pearl Harbor. That's the early Soviet SSBN with three ballistic missiles in a very enlarged sail. I think it's based off the November class. When we detected a Soviet search effort in the Pacific, our seabed hydrophone network for the Pacific was checked, and sure enough, the was a signal that might have been the loss of a sub, but it was hundreds of miles east of the Soviet search. So we triangulated the bearings and went to take a look. On inspection of the wreck, it appears one of the missles either blew up in the tube, or during an attempt to launch. In a book I read on the incident, the author claims that just prior to sailing, somewhere close to a quarter of the crew was replaced. This was a point in time that the Chinese were just getting their first SSBN operational, a copy of the Hotel class. Also, at this point in time, Nixon and Kissenger were working on better relations with Mao's China. So, you can see where the author was going with this...but for my money, a liquid fueled missile went off by accident, and Russian navy high command didn't dare reveal to the politburo just how close they sent one of their boomers to Pearl Harbor.
Former Bubblehead here. We may never know. That area is still a no-go zone. Find and read the book "To Kill the Potemkim." It's a good cold war submarine novel. "Blind Man's Bluff" is a great non-fiction read on subs in the Cold War era.
Retired USN submariner. It's been some years since I checked, but at that time, the prevailing theory was that the Scorpion had suffered some type of internal explosion - either a battery explosion or from a torpedo hot run - based on what they found at the wreck site. As far as the game itself - I'm not impressed with the apparent lack of research by the devs - even Wikipedia could have given them the in-service dates of various ships and weapons, let alone the plethora of other online resources - even a trip to a library with a reference hard copy of Janes Fighting Ships - granted this is still early access, but that they could have such errors in what should be basic information, when they're supposedly within a month or two of releasing the game - being polite, that at least speaks to being under a deadline to release the game, bugs and errors be damned.
@@TheKingartur007 no LA class subs that early ? Older US torps ? wire guided torps basically forces the launching sub if they want to continue controlling the torp to take it easy with maneuvers, so ordering the crew to give last order to the torp and then cut the wire ?
The dev's didn't create the mission, I believe Stealth did. The devs of course didn't do any research into the mission and what ships or weapons were being used, as they didn't create it. Stealth is just using the press release version and making do with the limited tool set in that version, and appears to be operating beyond the limits intended for the limited release.
