The Selfish Gene & Jordan Peterson's Comments about Makeup 

It's hard not to see that women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to use sexuality to intimidate other women and manipulate men, But they don't want to take responsibility when that power has consequence. Peterson was pointing out that rights come with responsibility, and instead of saying "men must...." you have to say "both men and women must..."

He made me think. I have a coworker that shows her midriff, wears heels, and shows some cleavage. Why? Its a sexual display and so why is it allowed in the workplace? Women are also allowed to be more emotional, yell, touch, and insult. There are women in my workplace that can and do get away with behavior that would get a man in trouble or fired.

You made a great point about proximal and ultimate cause. It's fascinating to think that makeup (as a meme) evolved under selective pressure not from male discernment but rather women's opinions of what they think looks pretty on themselves. Also the bit about it being more a signal of status to other women. It always struck me as odd to see an overweight, unhealthy woman with expertly applied makeup as from a man's perspective her time would be much better spent at the gym. Now it makes perfect sense. I also suspect that a lot of feminists conflate, perhaps unconsciously, intra-female competition with patriarchal oppression. Men are confused as to why they are blamed for women having to put on makeup when most of us would prefer the stuff had never been invented.

So enjoyable to listen to someone who actually thought about it and then articulates their point of view so well and honest, thank you.

Jordan was simply making the point that, if we are going to be serious about sexual harassment and sexuality in the workplace, we need to take a long, hard look at what the expectations for workplace behavior should be. Presently it’s all completely vague how both men and women should behave. We do agree that harassment is wrong.

As a Spanish over 40 male I find women without makeup more attractive than one with makeup. Natural attractions are more realistic and organic that any false facade they can implement on themselves

All humans care about attractiveness and the ultimate reason for that is sexual success. But that's the foundation and on top there's layers of complexity. Some of it socially constructed. Some of it psychological at the individual level. Very few people got Peterson's point in talking about make-up. As you assume, he was trying to show how sexual harrassment is a complex topic and how we need to discuss it from every angle. But we live in a culture of "so what you're saying is" where everything one says is taken to its extreme and then used to pass judgement on that 'one'.

"Why do women wear more makeup? Most of the time it's the same reason that the songbird will feed a Cuckoo chick." So you're saying women should organise their looks along the lines of Cuckoo birds?

You helped me understand myself a little better. I'm 56, married and was considering getting cosmetic surgery. When I told my husband, he asked why I wanted to do it since he thinks I'm very pretty as I am. He asked "who are you trying to attract?" I didn't have an answer. After watching your video, I realized I wanted to feel the same level of confidence when leaving the house as I had when I was younger. I instinctively knew my looks gave me an advantage, with both men and women. The challenge now is can I proceed with the same confidence without being as attractive? It's an interesting experiment.

I think people are missing the forest for the trees when they talk about this JP excerpt. The focus on "is makeup sexual / should it be allowed" is a bit misguided. His point was never about the makeup. He was describing a spectrum of actions that could possibly be construed as sexual ranging anywhere from flirting to a high five to a slap on the butt (my examples not his). Makeup was merely one point on this spectrum chosen to be the subject of a mental exercise JP was engaging in. That being: How much sexuality is too much? The argument about "JP said makeup is sexual" is a distraction from his actual point.

I think the point he was making is that, all the unwritten rules for 'how to behave in the workplace' evolved with humanity for thousands of years, and are based on (among other things) the premise that there's no (or very constrained) sexual tension between colleagues. That means, all-men groups and all-women groups doing different things. The introduction of women in the workplace - not as a separate group with their own rules and strictly bounded inter-group interactions (like, men are soldiers and fight, while women serve food and care for the wounded), but as equals - breaks the premise, thus we need new rules. But it's hard to think and talk about them, because they're all implicit, and co-evolved with our own instincts and culture. You can't simply institute new rules and expect that they're sufficient, that they will work well while interacting with the other existing rules (since we don't even know what the existing rules are), and they don't get in conflict with deep evolutionary human instincts, or with deep cultural notions from the society at large. The 'easy' solution is the Maoist China one he cited: elimitate the new element, and make everybody the same. This may work in an authoritarian regime, since your alternative to obey is to die, but is not very feasible in a free society. Hence, we need to talk more. For more than 40 years :)

it does not matter why they wear it ... what matters is that ... it is in fact designed to promote sexual attractiveness. whether that was the woman's intent or not it still causes a reaction in men.

Yes Po... Proven men are visually stimulated. Also agree women wear makeup as a confidence booster and as a status symbol. You did a great job on this one. As always you invite an opportunity for discussion without heated emotions that kill the chance to learn from others. So glad you're a voice of reason.

You are an inoculation against my usual extremest RU-vid diet. And your well thought out takes on topics like these is why I subscribe. Keep it up 👍

Kudos for thinking through this deeper than many do. As a man, for decades I have heard various women with a public voice claim the only thing which matters is their own motivation and yet are ignorant of the preprogrammed effects that certain makeup or clothing has on men. Thank you for trying to have a conversation and further it instead of cutting it off. I think that is also what Peterson was attempting to do.

If anyone thinks that makeup is not sexual, then feel tree to tart up your 10 year old with bright red lipstick, blush and eye shadow. If you attend a funeral, you will not likely wear the same amount of makeup as you would going out for the evening. Lesbians for the most part don't wear makeup like straight women. It is not inherent biological programming to paint your face. For the most part, we do it because everyone else does, not because we love it. If a woman is home alone for the day, most likely she will not put on makeup. If you are on a backpacking trip through the back woods you likely will not take a bag full of cosmetics. If you are a female athlete your makeup will run when you sweat, so why bother. The purchase of beauty products declines after you are in your thirties. This is usually the age where you are done with selecting a mate and are focusing on your family. This is not to say that older women don't ever wear makeup but it is not to the extent of their younger counterparts. You get more comfortable in your own skin. Who knows what Peterson really thinks of this subject anyway because this interview was highly edited. It was a 2 hour interview condensed to a 15 minute clip.

Your explanation why women wear makeup may be valid, but beside Peterson's point imho. The point is IF a woman wears makeup, is a man allowed to respond to the (increased) attractiveness of that woman? Or are women allowed to do anything their instinct tells them, but men are not? Jordan Peterson is not referring to the legitimacy of wearing make-up or high heels in the workplace, he states that there are no rules about it, so how can anybody know what the limits are? The focus is usually only on the man reacting, the woman is almost always automatically excused. BTW: as wearing makeup is a choice, where an erection caused by an image is not, you can not compare it like that.

IMO- Dr. Peterson was using absurdity to show absurdity. What is absurd is thinking that it is possible to control sexual activity between men and women in the workplace. He is showing the absurdity of such attempts at making "one size fits all situations" rules. He is showing the absurdity of the lengths one would have to go to control such basic, normal human interactions.

The male equivalent is the guy wearing a Brietling watch and expensive suit to work. These are (possibly subconscious) dominance displays to other men and attractiveness displays to women.

I'm a big fan of Jordan Peterson because he creates a debate and asks perfectly valid questions. This is a well thought out and reasonable reply to the makeup question. Thank you.

This is a very good point that I thought of when watching the interview:"Maybe makeup will just make them happier (about them self)". But it did not take away the ultimate fact of sexual suggestion, therefore I think Jordan's argument of rules are not clear is valid.

Your view is that women wear makeup in the workplace as an unconscious (proximal) display of status. This display of status is effective because the appearance of makeup resembles (or exaggerates) features found in high-status females, the young, healthy and fertile females. The men who often get in trouble with #MeToo are acting in the same way, seeking to mate with high-status females in their workplace as a sign and display of their own status, as well. The point that JP was getting at is that #MeToo has a problem with the men's behavior being motivated by proximal instincts, but not women's behavior motivated by the same. If consensus arises that men shouldn't act on their proximal motivations, that they should seek to consciously repress some of their instinctive behavior for sake of keeping a healthy working environment, then clearly the same should be expected of women, which means women shouldn't wear makeup. So, JP probably believes that either it's okay to hit on women at work and women to wear makeup at work (both acting on their own proximal instincts) or that all people should repress these, but that which of these avenues is better for society in the long-run is not established and society mostly is refusing to have a coherent and informed discussion about this.

Yes, I agree with this completely. I think context is important here (as you pointed out) and what Peterson was doing was brainstorming potential roadblocks to the perfect male/female interaction in the workplace that the interviewer seemed keen on ignoring. There are many other things he could have hit upon but he thinks on his feet and doesn't prepare for specific questions, unless we take into account questions he's been asked many times. This particular conversation is something I've not seen him engage with before and the way he delivered it (in this heavily edited video) suggests a context we may not be aware of. He was certainly not as friendly as we normally see him in these conversations so I think he was annoyed by previous comments and felt he needed to hit back. I wouldn't mind betting that given the same question in a less hostile environment, he will reference back to this response and correct himself. This is why he has earned so much respect.

This is my fav video of yours. I've actually learned something. Thank you

6:39 I would make the following disparate comments on this line of thinking. 1) If one concedes that there is an innate biological desire for women to feel attractive, then one must also concede that there is an innate biological drive for men to approach beautiful women and place value on their beauty. This drive can be hijacked and abused just like any other and society refuses to acknowledge this. 2) I don't think that any biological desire for women to "feel attractive" is independent of the proximate benefits they gain when they are attractive (ie. being treated better, being given resources or attention etc.). The thought experiment I would use is I doubt any woman would wake up in the morning and get all made up if they were isolated from societal interaction for any significant period of time. Otherwise, great video, I love seeing ideas approached with reason and creative thought.

Your argument is actually very sensible and coherent. Your calm manner and clarity of speech is praiseworthy. This is an eye-opening new perspective. Keep up enlighten us!

Looking fit will always gain you more respect. I think its deeply instinctual. Being a strong man will make you more desirable for mating, and the same goes for being a fit (attractive) woman.

Why do women wear yoga pants other than at yoga classes ? Uhmmmmm.....I was talking to a woman the other day and she actually started putting makeup during our conversation...

You do look attractive without make up. I saw this graffiti in a unisex toilet. "In a society that profits from your self doubt, liking yourself is a rebellious act."

Great video. Some people seemed to have missed that Peterson was really just posing the question rather than stating his views in that Vice interview.

The great benefit of Peterson and people like him is that they are finally forcing us to have mature conversations. To the specific question of "should women wear makeup," I would say it address a larger question of mutual responsibility for "sexual harassment" in the workplace. For one, the definition of sexual harassment is muddy and in flux, we can't even agree on a definition. Second, it seems that any call for women to accept any responsibility for its occurrence is immediately labeled as "blaming the victim." this is the trap we must overcome in order to come to a solution. Men and women are both responsible for the interactions they have with one another. To pretend that how you present yourself it not your responsibility, and therefore you have no part to play in how others react to your presentation is infantile. A man being aroused by your makeup or high heels is obviously not an excuse for boorish behavior (or worse), but once we admit that we aren't in complete control of our behavior, particularly in our initial reactions to situations,, as people like Peterson are well versed at laying out, some understanding at least can enter into the conversation. I think Peterson's point is not that women shouldn't wear makeup, rather that we need to come to an understanding as to what is realistic in our expectations of people's behavior in various contexts and take personal responsibility for how our actions affect each other. I teach my daughters that, while they have every freedom to dress as they see fit, they have to understand that if they dress provocitavely in public, that they are in a way torturing the young men that they come across, sending mixed signals to them by their dress. as you noted, they may dress to feel more confident, but they must understand that that is not the only consideration. They must also consider the proximate results of their presentation, that men are more likely to stare, to ogle, perhaps even harass or worse. a man is still guilty if he gives in to his instincts, but they can, in a sense, show kindness to men by dressing modestly in public. they seem to understand this without difficultly by the way, it seems obvious to them. I think Peterson is asking ultimately for us to grow up in this sense; that we have to understand that women and men are made to flirt with one another as a preamble to sexual activity, and that if we want to avoid bad outcomes when we interact in professional or social contexts outside of sexual situations, we have to being by practicing personal responsibility and empathy for one another. men and women will flirt with each other no matter what we do. we can either approach with the totalitarian mindset of restriction from above, or we can take the individual approach of personal responsibility and reflection, with and understanding that there will always be mistakes along the way, and to have faith that we have a justice system to deal with things outside the bounds of the harmless. thicker skin helps too. etc etc

Tbh i'm just glad that you're presenting your point like a decent human being and not go to screaming mode straight. It's such a shame that dr peterson have so little time to talk about that because the subject requires alot of time to unfold it and also, alot of people involved needed. Cheers, have a good day.

You completely left out marketing and the multi billion dollar cosmetics business. Average Women didn’t always use makeup. The make-up for “high status females” changes w/fashion.. but there’s always a common thread throughout history: display wealth, health n sexuality. 👠💅🏼💄💋

Great video. First, I'd like to say that you look great without make-up (not saying that you would look better or worse with make-up). Then, I'd like to add just one point. I think a large part as to why women (and some men) use make-up is to look more presentable. It's the same as taking care of your skin but using lotion, the same as washing your hair to make it look shiny and not greasy, the same as wearing nice and clean clothes that are matching in color and thus are pleasing to the eye, the same as wearing high-heels in order to be taller, the same as wearing a watch to the office, the same as brushing your teeth and possible getting them whitened from time to time. All of these things make you look more presentable and professional at the work place. Another point is that it's not black and white, the make-up one uses to the work place is in most cases very different to the make-up one would use to go on a fancy dinner date. The same as the work clothes one uses is different from a tight red dress or a fancy tailored suit. What I'm trying to say is that it's not so straightforward as JP is implying in that if you wear make-up then you are automatically only trying to stimulate sexual arousal in the opposite (or same) sex. I think a lot of what JP says is bogus. Someone should ask him why he shaves in the morning or why he wears suits....

Yes, but the women put on make up and stay home? I mean they satisfy that urge to be more attractive. But that urge has a social component that can only be fulfilled by acknowledging the gaze of another. But that may help me to understand why women wear tight jeans for instance. Because they feel satisfied in fulfilling the function of appearing attractive. If that’s an itch they feel the need to scratch.

+Po the Person You know there's a cut and uncut version of that Vice interview.

Great video and completely new insights which were very interesting, thanks Po the Person

Only thing i have to say is, women's worst enemy is other women. Men just get caught up in the cross-fire.

It is nice to see someone putting up actual arguments on a topic. For me, the whole point of Peterson's was that this is a taboo a topic, but avoiding it is not necessarily a good thing.

Thanks for the vid Po, I always appreciate your thoughtful comments on a wide range of topics (don't always agree, but that's besides the point)

Your authenticity is what's making you beautiful.

Whether a woman wearing makeup for herself or to increase her attractiveness to men is unimportant. When women wear makeup they're simulating sexual arousal which influences the men around them. As Peterson said, men in the workplace wear suits, suits are a form of uniform. Most men in most trades or professions wear uniforms. It would be appropriate for women in the workplace to not wear makeup and to wear uniforms to make them less distinguishable from other women.

When Pizza Hut launches a new commercial it does not tell you how cute puppy dogs are, instead it affirms your beliefs pizza are delicious. Make-up is no different, you don't sell makeup showing cute kitti-cats, it's used to amplify a woman's looks, they do this by showing beautiful, sexy models. Makeup is about attracting a mate, it least subconsciously, nowadays there is all kinds of rhetoric to tell you it's about power, youthfulness, confidence and all kinds of other fluff, but all of these things come back to attracting others. Men also have a variety of mate seeking rituals but we don't blow it off as simply as 'power seeking'.

This does not seem incompatible with what JP said.

Why people have made this such a complex question is beyond me. Do women wear make up to look prettier? Yes. Does being prettier make them more confident? Yes. Are women in effect putting on a sexual display sometimes with no intent to find a mate? Yes. Does this unnecessarily complicate the workplace? Yes. I really don't get how its more complex than that. Also, painting your face is not the same as wearing an outfit. Make up is fake whether its covering up the rings under your eyes, dressing up for halloween or just going to work. I really don't see how altering your appearance can be viewed as anything else. The arguments that it is not fake all seem like rationalizations. *shrug* I honestly do wish women would quit the practice but it seems they're just trying to push the practice onto men instead. It cannot be good for your self image, can't be healthy for your skin and its a waste of money and honestly I've never known a man that likes it anyway. Cheers!

point is reguardless of how you feel about it wearing make-up is to gain sexual attractiveness

I vividly remember being a child of about five or six, looking at adult women of my mother's age and wondering why they altered their bodies in such a strange way. Why would anyone want bright red lips, blue eye lids, red finger nails, and bits of metal and glass embedded in their ears? None of those things enhance a woman's natural appearance. In fact, they struck me as freakishly unnatural, but as I grew older, I started to find those features attractive. I became aware that women in certain parts of the globe did even more bizarre things in an effort to enhance their attractiveness, such as wearing bones through their noses, using metal bands to stretch their necks to giraffe-like proportions, and creating patterns on their skin with scar tissue. Some of them would stretch their ear lobes to grotesque lengths. As hideous as Westerners may find all that, apparently the men in their tribes have the opposite reaction. That suggests that at least some of what we find attractive in people is learned rather than biologically hard-wired.

Very well said. "I wear makeup to interviews because I want to appear to be a high-status woman." I agreed with Jordan Peterson in his VICE interview, but there was something missing and you nailed it. We don't put on make-up to attract men (that is a sub-concious motive for most), we put on make-up to garner respect. Of course in reality that seems ridiculous. How does a made-up face get respected more? But if women's value continues to reside in her youth and beauty, than a woman will continue to put on make-up to appear more youthful and beautiful. Why else did my 88 yr old grandmother insist upon wearing lipstick whenever she went out?

the fact your making this point not wearing make up makes your point more legit ..

Wow great point to make! Thank you for providing a real world example and referencing source material that it in and of itself has well referenced material. I have to say that I'm at a bit of a loss when reading the comments, as it seems many people didn't understand the point you were making. Perhaps their own bias got the best of them, maybe only half listened, hell I'm sure some commented after only watching 1 min and some further still just be seeing the title of this video. typo fix! reason for edit.

The conversation Peterson was having, and as you pointed out was to ask a question that pushes boundaries, was that Women wearing makeup is provocative regardless of intent and that the end result is a more sexualized workplace. "More" of course is a relative term when you consider that it's already sexualized by the very presence of both sexes in the same workplace. You are correct that some women use it to feel more confident by making themselves more attractive to themselves but some do it specifically to get an edge on the competition. The conversation is about where the line gets drawn and how much responsibility for misconduct lays on the shoulder of those who cross it. Underpinning all this is a the sub-context that makeup is a sexual display, even if you are only doing it for yourself, and unconscious actions lead to actual consequences and if you don't believe that you are living in a nieve child's delusional fantasy where there are no repercussions.

Exactly right... Beauty is NOT a modern social construct. The evolutionary reality exists, whether we want it to or not... Thank you for your candid review.

It depends. Women can wear makeup to be (sexually) attractive, although very often it’s simply to look less ghostly and more healthy, especially for moms. It’s often easy to tell for which reason a woman is wearing makeup.

Women wear makeup to look healthier and more refined or even younger, and they know what people respond to best regarding the hiring and salary decisions of bosses, transactions with clients, and smooth relations with colleagues. Men want to look sharp at work too, and for very similar reasons. Mr Peterson is acting? a bit dense when he talks like that. In many cultures, meticulous dress and grooming and personal presentation is a sign of respect.

things i learned for this vid 1 po digs emma watson 2 po likes choclate cake tbh i wasnt paying a whole load of attention

i think you completely missed Peterson's point. Ones more, he doesn’t give a damn to how people feel, their feelings mean nothing. it is the consequences of their actions, which falls immediately under the broad and more pressing topic of responsibility, which was the route of the discussion.

Interesting analysis. I think the distinction you are making is probably correct however I’m not sure how much of a difference it makes practically speaking. It might eliminate any basis for assuming some malicious intent to seduce male coworkers but even if heightening sex appeal just feels good and carries no anterior sexual manipulative motive, the effect is the same. It’s enhancing a woman’s sex appeal to all her non gay male co workers. The same goes for men who increase their sex appeal through working out or gaining promotion for higher income. They honestly could just enjoy working out and feeling healthy, or genuinely just want a higher income, but the end result is increased sex appeal. On your final point about hoping society matured enough to be able to discuss topics like this in a productive way, I fear this may prove a challenge.

To add to your analysis, status is seen as very important to women in their daily lives. Makeup, like new and expensive clothing tells the world a woman is higher status than some 'slattern' who is so busy mopping floors and feeding babies that she doesn't have the time or ability to paint herself in front of the mirror every day. I've heard it theorized that evolutionarily, women see popularity equaling survival.

I really appreciate you coming out to talk about this honestly. I found your video very interesting :)

Insightful as always... Thank you

i wish you were the one who engaged in this conversation with Peterson instead of that Vice buffoon. It would have been way more productive.

Although I have no problem with your suggestions on why women wear makeup, I feel you accidentally answered your own question on why a mature discussion on sexual issues in the workplace is completely impossible. Can you imagine, even if it were inarguably accurate, a man making the same arguments you just made, in order to explain his own assertive, flirtatious, confident, even aggressive behavior toward attractive, makeup wearing, attractively dressed women at his job? "It's my limbic system, my amygdala, my nervous system, my instinctual response to precreation, status, attractiveness. and it makes me feel good." Of course, this would all be completely true for a man or a woman, but alas, only the MAN is being required to go through the counterintuitive agony of overcoming and rejecting these reptilian brain demands, so the workplace can be comfortable for women. I've worked enough places to have seen sexual issues arise in the workplace from time to time, and I have NEVER seen the company's reaction, discussion, response, or punitive actions involve ANY responsibility placed on the behavior of a woman. This is why Jordan Peterson's inquiry was so provocative, and why I feel that men and women simply CANNOT work together. Except for Peterson's startling question, irritatingly mocked and rejected by the interviewer, I have never witnessed an honest discussion on the responsibilities of women specifically regarding a less sexualized workplace, and I believe I probably never will. It's unpopular as an opinion, but I believe segregating men and women in workplaces would result in a far superior work environment for both men and women, and we can all go for a drink after working hours to please our limbic systems. Thanks for another excellent video.

I agree Po. Lots of women enjoy looking beautiful. It naturally makes them feel good about themselves. It does not mean they are asking to be hit on in the workplace.

I would point out that, until not so long ago, men wore make up in the workplace and I don't think they did for making other man aroused. Judges and ministers wore makeup very similar to what woman use today: lipstick, blush, powder etc.. I'm talking, for example, about 18th century Europe.

lmao they are having this serious conversation in socks 1:01

Great video. To me, the issue is when women wear makeup because of instinctual impulse but men have to entirely restrain their instinctual impulses and not be able to even ask a women out for a coffee without fear of being labeled a creep or even an assaulter.

I think you are spot on. This video sent me on a big introspective journey trying to understand things that I might be doing without thinking. You are one of the best and most articulate intellectuals I know of. Amazing work! Keep it up.

I've thought about JP's statement since he said it, and you definitely nailed it in this video. I'm almost embarrassed I didn't work this out on my own.

yet another brilliant video. i just don't get why you have only 3k subs

You have good points and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Some women wear makeup to feel good about themselves and some wear it for attention like Peterson said. In my opinion the bigger problem is that women don't take responsibility for how they dress and look. If you're gonna wear makeup and mini skirt or something you should expect men to look at you and secualize you and should not judge them for it.

Watch the unedited full version.

I think this is really brilliant! I also believe that most women don't understand the 'why' of makeup on such a deep level either, as you say it's instinctual.

A woman appearing attractive for herself versus appearing attractive for others, is there really a difference? Not to a man, because discerning the difference in real-time doesn't change the outcome of wearing makeup, period. Meaning, her decision to wear makeup still elicits sexual tension despite her personal reasons, so what are we really debating here?

WEar makeup because want to look attractive to attract attractive mates to mate and anyone saying otherwise is a hypocrite

I think his point was if we start policing the sexuality and interactions between genders at work we need to be sure we understand what we are talking about first, because it’s not simple. As an example - such common thing as makeup can be viewed as a tool to enhance sexual attraction (and it is), so the question is where do we stop in policing things and what are the rules? I agree that as women we instinctively want to be more attractive, so it’s true we do it for ourselves - to feel better about ourselves, to feel more confident, but it is achieved through being viewed as more attractive by others.

You are doing a good job of advancing the discussion. You are on the right track that Peterson was only bringing up something worth discussing, but he specifically said he did NOT have the answer.

I can remember when wearing makeup was apart of a women being considered well dressed and presentable (think anytime after the 1920s). Now we have to have conversations about whether it promotes sexual harrassment or not, god our species is fucked. Sexual Harrassment has zero to do with makeup or tight fitting clothes...thats for both men and women. It has everything to do with people not respecting others and not respecting no. If you cant function in the goddamn workplace without sexually harrassing or even raping someone because they have on lipstick or even tight suit pants, you should be locked up because youre a menace to society.

you should probably watch the unedited interview

This opened my eyes... It's like... not either's fault really, and what you're saying actually supports what Peterson really means I think about not knowing what the rules are. There is a new dynamic that forms between the two preference sets that takes each out of their normal choice-consequence framework. If I'm a rat in an experiment and I've learned that pushing a button has a small side effect and a big benefit, I'll always choose to pay more attention to the benefit than to really care about the side-effect. What you're saying here is, even in the dating world, not that women are trying to attract the other by wearing makeup, but rather that they feel best and most powerful going into the situation when they evaluate themselves as attractive. This translates beneficially in a courtship scenario because the personal goals (feeling attractive and being effective) and the effects (actually attracting), line up. But we don't yet know the rules when the woman is being attractive to be their most confident, causes the side effect of making them seem like, not just people who are attractive, but TRYING to attract as well, which is like an invitation. The signal is indistinguishable from someone that is trying to be attractive, and not just trying to be attractive, but trying to, and succeeding to arouse. For women that say this simply means men need to learn to not be turned on in a work environment, this is not just disrespecting the power of biology, but can also be shown this disrespect by suggesting that women need to just learn to be confident without superficially augmenting their appearance. It's more complicated than both of those, not least because when we insist women become more assertive for things like advancement and compensation, we start to select for women who are more competitive, possibly giving rise to women with more testosterone which increases sex drive... or a whole litany of unexplored consequences, all triggered by these signals suddenly having a different context then what they're seen by their the people choosing the initial, isolated consequences.

I'm confused, you state yourself to look best without makeup, but then explain that, you apply more makeup to give the impression of being a high-status woman. Why do you believe a high-status woman looks _worse_ than your best?! Also, in attempting to justify the application of makeup to be in the realm of proximate goals---devoid of trickery, your analogy falls significantly short. There's a stark difference between the mother bird who instinctively feeds the freshly hatched young, in her nest, from eggs she had tended to, and the fact that, women spend a considerable amount of time, effort, and money on makeup products. Yes it produces a state of greater confidence, but there *must* be a level of cognizance that, through the use of make up, a woman is: 1) Concealing certain features 2) Accentuating certain features 3) Possibly _creating_ features---which vanish after a cleansed face. All the while, honing an ambiguity as to which detail is whole-fully due to product. It feels a little far to accuse women of trying to "trick" others, however, this element certainly exists throughout all the concerted focus needed for the above 3.

You’re lucky to be attractive without makeup.

You make a great point, but you are only looking at one side of the equation - why women wear make up. Part of Peterson's point is that men are also hard wired to respond to the effects of make up due to their own biology. It's the same way that men respond to the image of the naked woman in the example you gave. I'm sure the actual model wasn't feeling "sexual" during the photoshoot, but that's irrelevant to how the viewer will respond. So in the work place, a woman may be wearing make up for the reasons you gave, but that doesn't mean that biologically men are going to only respond based on what the woman's immediate intent is. If a woman want so to appear more "high status" for instance and some of these motivations are hard wired into the woman's brain at an unconscious level, men will also respond that way too. This is the weakness in discussing feminism and the rights of women in the world today - it's as if it's only important to discuss the woman's side of things as if that is the only valid consideration. As an engineer, you can see this "flaw" in your own work. You can't just look at the forces acting on some thing that you feel are most relevant to you, but all the forces. In design of a tall building for instance, you can just look at the static building, but also the environment, the effects of wind and soil and the potential for earthquakes and so on.

Po is absolutely correct in her assessment as to what motivates most women to wear makeup. I have 4 beautiful sisters and I don't believe any of them need to wear makeup to look more attractive. Although it has always been a bit perplexing to me, I have never criticized them for doing it. It makes them feel good about themselves and that is a good enough reason. My 88 year old mom, a widow for 9 years before she died, spent a good hour putting on her makeup and probably another hour picking out the "right" suit to wear before I would pick her up to go to church. I doubt that she was looking for a date. Throughout her life it was the "proper thing to do," a social ritual of sorts, and if she didn't "feel right" about herself in that particular way, she would not go.

This was fantastic to listen to. Your opinions are sophisticated and you express them in such an articulate way. I wear makeup nearly everyday and I guess I’d never really thought why. However, when I think about what you’ve said, I agree completely; I don’t wear makeup to attract anyone, I do it for myself. When I am particularly spotty and haven’t put on foundation, I feel really self conscious and no matter who tells me I look fine, I can’t shake the feeling. This, in my mind, confirms that I’m putting on makeup to make me feel good. Anyway, enough of my opinion, yours is the one worth listening to!

There is no conflict between your observation and Peterson’s point. Wanting to appear attractive is as aspect of female sexuality. Women attract, men are attracted. But it is pointless to “be attracted” unless this is manifest in some way. So a man must do or say something that manifests that he is attracted. This is the equivalent instinct to women wanting to appear attractive and, equally, does not necessarily denote an actual sexual overture. The #MeToo movement wants to suppress absolutely any such “manifestations of being attracted”, even those which would hitherto have been regarded as innocuous, even pleasantries, such as “you are looking nice today”. The drive is to suppress male sexuality absolutely. Peterson’s point is that the equivalent suppression for women would be to forbid women presenting themselves as attractive. Take that far enough and you have the obligatory burka. Where we are heading is sexuality suppression equivalent to that of fundamentalist Islam but with the sexes reversed.

Did you watch the unedited version of this interview in which I found quite interesting and actually watered down his argument

Well... It doesn't matter what you think of your behaviour. We always have some sort of false explanations of our behavior which give us the illusion of control.

I agree with Peterson. If we're going to hold men to behavioral standards at work, women should also be held to a commensurate behavioral standard, whether it's unconscious programming or not. Anyone can claim unconscious behavior such as wearing make up, but when it comes right down to it, it's their choice to put on make-up. It doesn't matter if they do it in their personal lives, but the issue here is what you do at work. The issue is really a case of women wanting their freedom of sexual display while rebuking men's wanting the same for themselves.

You speak sense so effortlessly, it's a real treat listening.

It is a sexual display, ironically though, men and what they think are often almost an afterthought in the whole thought process. I see it more as a power struggle between women. She may think she looks great, but if Jo from accounting looks even better, our erstwhile heroine is going to be depressed, assuming she had designs on being the Überfrau. It's not so much about what she thinks is attractive, but more about how attractive she is compared to the others. It's absolutely a sexual instinct, played out in one big ass social hierarchical dance off, which will decide much of the social formalities between women (and then, later down the road, between women and men), probably without nary a conscious thought about what's actually going on from anyone. I should place a gigantic "IMHO" right here in the interests of civility and humility.

you're prettier than emma Watson!

Nice commentary! Couple of thoughts. First the Vice video was heavily edited, and Petersons views were taken out of context. Secondly, my wife of 25yrs worked in the cosmetics industry for 30yrs and knows a little about the marketing ploys of those companies. Peterson was simply bringing up a very good point. If the workplace is enforcing rules about sexual harassment, and we all need to discuss what has gone on in the past, then why not bring that up too? We had a situation at work where a man "stared" at a women for too long, and they brought up sexual harassment. He was not even looking at her, but it is a concern for HR depts. My wife knows for a fact that women are targeted in advertising by the cosmetic companies. They feel that they HAVE TO look better to attract a mate, and to do better in the workplace. If you really look deeply into it, it DOES matter in the workplace! Whether a woman wants to looks younger, or more powerful, they are trying to get a ahead in the workplace. They are competing against men, so who can blame them, but there is a problem there. Peterson is simply saying that if you want to REALLY make things equal, why should we bring that in to the work place? He even brings up Maoist China where everyone had to wear the same uniform.... and said that did not go well. It was simply a topic of conversation and debate.. not necessarily a hard stance on his part.

You are a very bright woman. Much credit to you and your objectivity on this matter.

Really clever video. Thoughtful analysis of own behaviour and connecting it to JP’s statements. always great to listen to an intelligent articulate human being.

Very good analysis. In my opinion, Dr. Peterson was saying only one perspective (female) is being represented in the argument. He appeared to be offering an opposing view point (male), which has not been represented thus far. I think he’s asking, in his own way, what about how the man feels / sees? He is also echoing what your analysis concluded in that men will inevitably react to attractive women. It is hard wired in straight men. From a male perspective, I can tell you it is very very powerful. Good video btw

I started wearing makeup in my forties. My beauty is fading away. I feel less attractive, I feel older and irrelevant. Make-up adds to my confidence. It is what it is. Unfortunately for some, to me feeling attractive is important. I enjoy the attention of men.

Both men and women have worn make up and high heels throughout history. This is why I find his point so off. Plus does he know there are other colors of lipstick out there besides “just had sex red?” 😂 But that’s cool, ignorant people on both sides can assume why anyone wears makeup but until they start asking us than they can keep making baseless assumptions meant to make women feel like everything they do HAS to be for sexual reasons.

Why do add colourful feathers to a fish hook?

IMHO it doesn't matter why women wear make-up. The point is that they do, and that's a part of communicating sexuality. Men's behavior is equally programmed by instinct(feelings), and not restricted to initiating a specific sexual encounter. The main difference is how the sexes are held accountable for their actions, conscious or not.