Ted Gioia on AI's Threat To Music 

I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to hear two grown men discuss topics in such a thorough, intelligent, respectful manner. Rick, thank you so much for your channel and all the content you put out! I could listen to you guys talk for hours on end!

Gioia in conversation with Beato = instant click.

this made me so happy. At 58, I am building a new studio to record the songs I have been wanting to record for 30 years. Life threw monkey wrenches at me so I had to take care of business... now I am going to do it.... it gives me confidence I am doing the right thing. Thank you Rick and Ted!.

I'm a French indie musician. I'm lucky that my music travels the world (nearly 4 million streams on Spotify). I really feel part of this micro-culture that's rising like a wave in the music industry. Thank you for talking about it so brilliantly in this video! But I remain ignored, like many others, by the forces in place. My budget is small, but my heart is unstoppable. I'll be in concert in New York on June 21 and 22, still on my own but with magnificent freedom. Thank you Rick!

This is hands down the best interview I have seen so far in 2024. I love the natural way this conversation unwinds and expands into so many directions while remaining anchored to the central idea it began with. Just brilliant!!

I am an artist/songwriter in Nashville and have been solicited on 2 occasions by companies with exclusive deals through Spotify to distribute ghost music. It’s absolutely real. They pay up front for the rights, and put that music on their editorial playlists to make sure the majority of what’s being streamed goes back into their pockets and no one else’s.

“True progress is humans flourishing” The joy of being able to hear two friends in conversation is indescribable! Thank you, both🙂

The last time Ted Gioia was on Rick Beato’s channel, I became a free subscriber to the Honest Broker. After a few months, I decided to be a paying customer, figuring in a year I could decide if I actually read it. Recently, it came up for renewal. Did I renew? Yes I did!

"Entertainment gives you exactly what you want. But the artist doesn't operate like that. The artist makes demands on you. That's the essence of that artistic experience." - Ted Gioa. (Charlie Parker and Theolonious Monk thought the same about Jazz and they gave us Bebop.)

Before watching this, I was committed (as an indie musician with a home studio) to reducing my lengthy songs, as I like to make them, to 3-minute songs. Why? Because that's the only way to get my songs on Spotify playlists. It never felt right and uncomfortable but if I wanted to get heard, that's what I thought I had to do. So thank you Ted and RIck for this insight, I'm just going to continue to write and compose the songs I want to make them!

What an eloquent and profoundly beautiful discussion between two people who recognize that hope for civilization will not be grounded in power or money, but rather, the willingness to express creativity. Creativity is not something we have to manufacture. We merely have to be willing to be a conduit through which the creative intelligence of the Universe flows.

Ted is amazing on so many levels, I am amazed at his power to articulate his beliefs in such a compelling way.

This video should be required viewing for anyone who is even remotely interested in music and culture these days. Absolutly brilliant! Thank you Rick for having these important conversations!

I only subscribe to one newsletter and that's Ted Gioia's "The Honest Broker". It's a reader-supported guide to music, books, media & culture and It's just been voted "best blog of the year" by music writers in the Jazz Journalist Association. It's brilliant. Congratulations Ted.

I believe both Ted and Rick are genuine, humble and incredibly experienced and intelligent people, not to mention experts in their field. I believe people gravitate towards their way of communicating their respective subjects is because they come across as truthful and GENIUNE. Honesty is so refreshing today that it will absolutely be sought out, as well as wisdom and knowledge. This one was great as was the first one with Ted, I felt like I was the third person sitting at the table and so enthralled with the subject matter that I had no desire to join in the conversation!!

Rick, I can't thank you enough for introducing me to Ted. Not your usual interview and I loved it. Coffee, AI, VR, curiosity, change, and following your heart. Please have Ted back and do more of these. Good stuff.

In 1965, Frank Herbert wrote in Dune: “Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” “‘Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,’” Paul quoted. “Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible,” she said. “But what the O.C. Bible should’ve said is: ‘Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.” Copyright © 1965 by Herbert Properties LLC.

I've been saying it for 10+ years to groups and individuals who post videos. People want honesty and truth in the discussion and the presentation by the presenter. Be yourself and give your honest opinion. And if you're wrong. Own up to what ever it is. Rick, you have all this with your video's. That's why people watch you. Thank you for just being a good guy and talking to us as a real person. Peace and love man.

This is probably one of the best interviews RB has ever done...I have gone through all the crap of trying to deal with major labels only to be told 'you can't be controlled, you're too creative'. Well it's their loss. I've done it anyway. I have a small but very loyal following and I'm actually glad I belong in that 'micro culture' group. Plus I can write and produce whatever I want, which is what it should be like. Go Ted, this is a must-see for anyone who's been suffering the consequences of being an artist in this stagnant times.

One of the best interviews I've seen in a very, very long time. The sort of thing that you never see in the main stream media these days, but used to. Sort of proves Ted's point....

As a teacher I encourage my pupils to suggest to me tunes they'd like to learn and play. One of my saxophone pupils came in to their lesson and said, "Sir, I've heard a tune I'd really like to learn!" - now take note, this doesn't happen very often so I felt uplifted and excited. I asked, "Oh good. What was the title of the tune?", he said, "I don't know." "Oh ok, who was the artist?" He said, "I don't know." - again. Puzzled and getting frustrated I said, "When did you hear it, what was it playing on?" He said, "My mum asked Alexa to play some nice saxophone music and it was one of those tunes." - that, my friends, was a dead-end.

I like this setup with the interview at a table in your studio

My mother, who pased away last year at 109 years of age, said to me many times that they have always played recording over and over and over until you forget they aren't very good. Brillent lady.

Being a musician for decades & watched this…SO many things now make sense and clear! Thank you both for this interview Rick & Ted. Keep rocking Rick🤘🎸🤘

I really like Ted's newsletter. So glad he's on the show again. Maybe do it monthly? Just a suggestion.

The best part of the interview for me was as a father of a son that is set to graduate from high school was the conversation about what career path to seek for new adults. In this time of uncertainty about what the future looks like with the apparent possibility of the influx of AI technology and the prospect of most of us becoming replaced. Even if I cannot get him to watch this to say whatever path you choose is okay, I will gain the perspective as a father to support him wherever life takes him.

Some years back I read Ted's book "Delta Blues. Being a longtime devotee of rural blues, I didn't expect it to shed any new light on the subject. I was pleasantly surprised by the revelations I got from reading it.

This is so hard for people like me who spent their whole lives building up skills and experience in film and music and creative arts generally believing that if i worked hard enough that there would be a pay day - only to find that was stripped away! Didn’t see it coming. I grew up with the message work hard, improve for what you want - that turned out to be empty and now I’m poor and tired! - perhaps I’ll start a video channel like you Rick! Love your videos Rick - I learn so much from you.

This guy is totally on point. I, like many people I think, are sick sick sick of formula crap. I want to be surprised and thrilled. I want to discover things I didn't expect. Also, big companies can kiss it. They've been robbing creatives as long as I've been around. I support artists by making my music purchases directly from them and attending their live performances. I really hope the new world shifts the balance of power to creators who deserve to be rewarded for their creativity and risk taking.

Noam Chomsky recently referred to AI and Language Models as “plagiarism software because it doesn't create anything, but copies existing works of existing artists modifying them enough to escape copyright laws.”

Ted Gioia’s “subversive history of music” is a great book. Learning about the history of music has helped me so much on a practical level

“Only creative people can save us” pretty much sums up the problem in a wide range of media beyond music.

FINALLY TED IS BACK! I've been reading "the honest broker" ever since he was on the channel for the first time. I love the stuff he writes about music and technology, super excited to listen to this!

The problem with this relatively optimistic analysis is that the previous cycles didn't have to factor with technological, cultural and social change that AI will bring, has brought and if allowed will completely reframe the argument, the driving factors in the past were human agents/actors/driving forces even if they were technological advances, radio/TV/home stereos/vinyl to cd, and even early streaming. Going to see a band in a live environment, touring, socialising around and with music....person to person etc. Music is aimed at kids, they drive streams.....it's the backdrop to their lives in 30 second bites, not the soundtrack to a life as it used to be, it's very very hard to make the bet that real music, made by proper musicians is somehow gonna come back in 5-10 years....at least not in the mainstream

I love Ted s substack, thanks for interviewing him. It's not just his music reviews, but when he writes about society in general. thanks again.

Greetings, Microculture person here. I have not bought a CD in a long time and I will never Spotify or Pandora, etc. I am deliberately simplifying my tech life and discarding all things that are not authentic, true, or meaningful. I am old and remember values from decades ago from my parenting. We need people like you, Rick, and Ted! I am a Substack subscriber and just love it! Thank you for this interview. I tell friends about both of you.

THIS is what I've been missing all these years since Musician magazine disappeared. This is even better!

"Get out of your comfort zone", wish I had done than more often during my career. I'm now retired and while I can honestly say I always enjoyed my work, I recognize that I often stayed in a job longer than I should have, mainly because I was too comfortable and only left because outside forces pushed me to out. Bravo to Ted, I hope that some young people watching this interview will pay attention and heed that advice.

Amazing - what gem. Analytical creatives unapologetic about embracing life. As the old tune goes, "I like life, and life likes me". I find myself in a similar boat and am thankful to hear this man speak. Cheers Rick for the great interview!

Just have to point out that Rick's description of his career path towards the end of the interview perfectly matches some of the themes of "late bloomers" that Henry Oliver rights about in his book Second Act. The "inefficient preparation" of following what you love and doing various different things, but always putting in the work and showing up each day. It's inspiring to think we all can learn from Ted and Rick in how we choose what to pursue in life.

Hey Rick, I am a follower of your Chanels for years now and I really enjoy your videos, especially the interviews, your doing. I'm 70 years now, I play guitar since I was 13 (we started with playing songs of The Spencer Davies Group, The Kinks etc.) I payed a lot of attention to what was said in the interviews of Sting, Brian May and M.Omartian. I learned a lot from these interviews. But this interview is the most important of all. T.Gioia said so many important things about music, literature, AI, music-industry, film-industry and at least about our life and our society. I will give an advice to this interview on my Facebook chanel to all my friends and followers and I will try to send this advice also to important journalists in Germany and hope, they will look at it! I wish there could be a summery of this interview in German, so that more people in Germany would read and think about it! I thank you so much for this extraordinary interview! Please keep on spreading this thoughts. You are always welcome in Germany. Greetings from a friend in Germany, Albrecht (Sorry for my English is not good enough.)

That interview hit so many points in my life, I was amazed. from early days of loving music, joining bands and playing gigs To drawing, writing and taking my love of all of that then starting my own company as a graphic artist and teaching others to do the same. This guy is brilliant and what a great interview. Thank you for sharing this.

You introduced me to Mr. Gioia the last time you featured him in an interview. I have been reading his Substack regularly since that time. Thank you for inviting him back for round-two.

I am an independent artist who’s been in the biz for over 3 decades, and I write both music and lyrics myself, and my songs have more than 4 chords. 😂. It gives me so much hope to hear your discussion on micro culture! So refreshing to hear that it’s not a crazy or reckless decision to take risks. And that in fact it is what we need to do. I love knowing you guys publish your videos whenever the heck you want. There is hope for me! 😍 Every artist needs to watch this video.

My band was on Ted's top 100 list in 2022. After 10 years of trying very very hard and a dedicated fan base, we had to give up. It was simply not sustainable to record or tour. It used to be incredibly difficult to make a living, then it became impossible and now it costs money to work. So I now make music alone in my professional home studio, I have this (to me) fantastic album I am working on. I am seriously considering not releasing at all. I work on it very slowly in my spare time and still enjoy the process very much. That can not be taken away from me. Everything else has been destroyed. There is no path to any kind of sustainable future for serious artists/musicians anymore.

this guy is a genius. always enlightening. Rick, you're no slouch either. this was very inspiring, I'm a musician and a visual artist, I make a comic book, self publish, on my own schedule, each chapter is as long as it needs to be, only self-imposed deadlines, I crank out one page a week, no censorship, I have a small audience, of about 1,000 readers currently, but I'd never get hired nor would I want to, by the "big 2" (DC & Marvel). keep it up.

Such an honor seeing Ted talking facts almost as similar as he writes facts. Great interview Rick. Subscribed.

This was one of the best interviews I have ever heard in my life. It felt like I was there, sitting in the room, listening to the conversation. And as a pianist (who also hopes to write songs in the future), I can relate with a lot of what was covered in this video. Thank you so much for this!

This is the best conversation with Ted you’ve had. Just listened to the whole thing and it was thought provoking throughout.

I like Ted's stuff. Always something good to read. Yes, cycles. You have to deep dive history to see a lot of it. Sometimes you can pick a subject like music to dive into and see these cycles.

Someone posted something about you, Ted, I joined your substack, and now I'm listening to this youtube interview -- within a few days! I don't think I knew about you before. "Why didn't I have these opportunities before when I was younger?" Still listening. Congrats, this interview is so great!

What an amazing conversation, thank you for that!

"there's a crisis of trust" EXACTLY

George Orwells Ideas were way ahead of his time.

I'm a huge fan of you both and I truly loved listening in on this conversation. Thank you.✌

This is a very interesting conversation and well articulates what many of us as musicians and music lovers are feeling. However, I don’t lament the fall of the corporate music industry, as I rejected it long ago and am quite happy with all the independent and underground music available today. I want hardworking and dedicated musicians to be able to make a living, but I don’t care about them becoming “stars,” and if becoming a star is what motivates an artist, I am very skeptical of them in the first place.

Been reading his books since he was on last time. Great writing and fantastic insights on music!

This is probably the best interview I've watched in my life - period. Absolutely incredible insight into the world of today and the nature of self-navigation. Thank you!

Another great interview with the great Ted Gioia! I learned of him from the last interview - have been subscribed to his Substack since, and read “Music: A Subversive History” this far. Love that guy and I really enjoy you two together. 👍🏼

I've been searching amongst my friends for someone to talk to about the future and current state of music for days with little success. Thank you for shining some light on this topic that is on many minds recently.😊

Every time I hear Ted I'm inspired to find new music and have a renewed focus on supporting the industry now. I think twice about the latest re-issues, and would rather spend my money supporting a new artist. The you tube "vinyl community" kinda has a fair bit to answer for on this and mostly is looking to the past for the new shiny expensive re-issues meanwhile we aren't investing in the now and the future.

I keep thinking about the differences between listening now and listening in the past. Besides ownership, all the media was finite. Vinyl or tape or CD, there was always an end. Which made us different listeners. Music on an infinite playlist feels less intentional. Someone else is choosing and it never ends. Whereas when I popped in a CD, it's one I chose and at some point it would reach the end...

I'm now a fan of Ted. His commitment to honesty is something we need more of. The discussion on art vs entertainment was inspiring.

Hands down the best interview you have ever done. Ted shows us how important an understanding of history is, and that artists need to know it, too. Bravo, Rick! Keep 'em coming!

A nice use of light to highlight the Orange amps in the background.

I had never heard of Ted Gioia, but I watched the entire interview because I found Ted’s multiple interests intriguing. Music, economics, history, art, criticism, etc., etc. brings together patterns of development from the past, that can be helpful in understanding the present and the future. I am a creative that has seen so much of the infrastructure that I operated within only one or two decades ago dissolve and disappear, only to see opportunities arise again from a new infrastructure of direct contact with the audience. I very much enjoyed, listening to Ted’s journey through this material and hearing some of his musings and conclusions. Thank you, Rick for another enlightening interview.

I subscribed to Ted’s email newsletter after watching his FIRST sit down with Rick awhile back. Good stuff! Worth it!

Superb interview by two cool guys! It was most informative as well as thought provoking. Ted, you spoke of people answering to a calling within. I think that happened to me at 51 years of age. I liked writing and learned to write lyrics, but lacked any actual musical skills. My grandmother had written a book of poems many decades ago...maybe that's where my writing interest was spawned. I kept writing songs, but never made any really good, lasting connections in the music industry. Life zoomed by, and 18 years later I stumbled onto Ai. This was a couple of months after my wife of 46 years was diagnosed with blood cancer. After this staggering development, I saw Ai as an opportunity to finally put my songs to music, and I have. Over the past couple of months, I've been able to produce around 70 songs. I even put a couple of albums out. Time, which is often the case in life, was the critical factor in my urgency to create music in time for my wife to hear the songs that she's seen me write over the years. If anyone's interested, I'm Ralph Eddie Wheatley, and the first album is 'Killing Robins', and the second is 'Wild Boys of Yesterday'. The music is out in the usual places, and Ted, some of it may fit in your "edgy" category. Thanks to both of you for your insights and wisdom. Keep up the good work!

"Every aspect of our creative process feels like it's in crisis right now." So true. Substack is great.

@Rick Beato - Thank you so much for bringing up the point you make at around 52:18 where you brought up the simple art of speaking directly to the camera. I think it was around 10 years ago when I started noticing the silly camera style of capturing the speaker from side-angles... I hated it... still do. Thank you for keeping the traditional, simple camera style of speaking directly straight into the camera!

Great discussion! It was mentioned in the dialogue exchange that record companies yes need to take risks and invest in people who can identify and develop talent. Q: Isn't the new mechanism / platforms for identifying and nurturing talent, while creating an audience for this new talent, televisions shows like America's Got Talent, American Idol, etc...?

Great interview Rick, I always love hearing Ted’s perspective.

Love Ted Gioia. I wish he had more videos on his own RU-vid channel!

So wonderful to listen to you two having an amazing chat thank you

I was interested in watching this interview a bit. Turned it on while at work to have something in my ear as I worked to pass the time. This conversation was one of the best I've seen on this channel...and I absolutely love your channel.

I hope that Spotify will go bankcrupt soon. Very soon. In the name of creativity and the people who express themselves via music.

Ted is so much fun to listen to and extremely motivating. Thx so much. Rick.

Another enlightening, insightful and inspiring interview courtesy of the best music-related channel on YT You're a treasure, Rick!

Fantastic interview/conversation.

A mainline of inspiration watched at 1.75X speed! I perform for residents of long-term care and retirement homes professionally, real music, time-tested tunes, no backing tracks, no buttons to push, nothing to hide behind, spontaneous, on my feet, with energy, recreation therapy by definition, mostly from memory unless it's a song I'm developing, earning a living by performing nearly 500 1-hour concerts per year across Canada. I'm far from rich, in fact, I barely scrape by, but your point at the end of the video is why I do it, because it's a privilege. I receive payment in goosebumps, tears, handshakes, conversations and scenic drives. Part of me thinks I'm crazy, get a real job, the other part says I can never stop. I found my ikigai. Cheers.

The Lemon Twigs actually write great pop music, and they even record to tape. Get them in for an interview, its a fascinating backstory.

The connection between the monotony of both cinema and pop music is very interesting. I hope Ted is right that more daring and inventive offerings are on the way!

Thank you so much for inviting Ted Gioia again. I wouldn't mind if you had him on more often. I already subscribe to his newsletter, but it's always great to hear both of you in conversation. (I know that Ted has his own YT channel, but that's not his primary venue of expression).

What a great interview! So insightful and eye-opening.

Great interview, as usual. This is my second comment here which is rare for me. A number of years ago a very good friend of mine, we played as a duo for years and both write, went to a Garth Books seminar on song writing. The focus was on learning “the formula” for writing a successful song. Noticed I said SUCCESSFUL, not GOOD. Brooks laid out the structure, dynamic and the syntax to follow. 99%(i made that number up) of Nashville country music had that exact formula. Freaked me out. A lot of good music still comes out of Nashville but the formulaic song still reigns king. Mind numbing stuff.

So many great takeaways from this interview, I remember your first with Ted that impulsed a subscribe to his awesome Substack, I simply want to say Thank you for being (both) honest and the micro voices that we need today👍

Nothing can match the human emotion that music creates inside of us. AI is a real current and future threat. We need to pay close attention to how it’s manipulating the industry and make sure we never lose the authenticity that we create as human artists. This conversation is a must watch/listen for anyone who disagrees or doesn’t understand what real music means for culture and society.

One of my favorite movies is the man in the blue flannel suit. The movie brakes all the rules of movie making that has evolved to this point. Every time I expect it to wind down to a close I find it’s not the end of the story. I love that it isn’t pushed into the mold of today. Great interview I want more!

10/10 conversation. I am RELIEVED that this is going to get a lot of views. Thank you for the hard work that went into making this video for all of us. Please do more.

Great interview. You know what I've noticed...a lot of guitarists on your interviews have brought up the great Gary Moore ie. Joe Bonamassa.....Kirk Hammet....yet I've never seen anything on his inspiration to millions of guitarists or the impact in Rock and blues guitar on your channel.....would love to see a segment on Gary!!!

I discovered Ted on your first interview and have been following him since. Thanks for introducing him to me and for bringing him back!

Wow that 95min conversation seemed to pass in the blink of an eye. Truly enlightening content Mr Beato sir. Mr Gioia just gained a new reader/observer/listener/fan/call it whatever you want. What you guys had to say was so on point. I've just realised I'm actually starting to look forward to the years ahead...again...in my 50"s...who'd a thunk it! 🤯 Thanks Rick, love what you do man ❣️🫡

I've started listening to popular music out of Norway, because you can find talented musicians not working for labels. Norwegians are great about supporting their own artists, musicians, actors, filmmakers, and so on.

What a stellar conversation that we were able to be privy to. Cheers, crew!

When I, a skinny, copiously bepimpled kid in Coos Bay, Oregon, decided I was going to try to become a jazz musician in about 1977, there was hardly anything that could possibly have been less practical; my parents eventually supported me and sent me to 2 years at the Berklee College of Music, but what could have been a more iffy “career choice” than THAT? 47 years later, having navigated the whole labyrinth of the comings and goings of the music business, I have to laugh that being a “jazz guy” has actually been way MORE practical than a lot of other avenues in music. For one thing, it has paid better than a lot of pop gigs, even huge ones. A friend of mine, a truly great drummer, was working for Ricky Martin in the late ‘90s, playing stadiums everywhere. This guy, the engine of the whole enterprise, was making $1500 a week. He finally asked for a raise, and the response? “You’re fired”. I met him doing a tour of Japan with the great saxophonist Sadao Watanabe and Richard Bona shortly after that, playing clubs, that paid twice that much. And it has consistently been so, at least for me. Am I driving a Cadillac with horns on the front? Not yet, though I aspire. But I do wonder this: In a world where increasingly everything is robot-generated pablum, dumbed down to the average of a billion other articles, pieces of music, photos, and so on, are those of us who can actually play, who can do something visibly human, something worth watching and hearing live on a stage, going to end up as the last musicians standing? I’ve always said “nobody wants to watch a robot dunk a basketball”. And nobody wants to watch a robot take a saxophone solo. The singular appeal of the great saxophonist is the transmission of humanity from one human to another via this strangest and most ephemeral wordless, beautifully organized vibration of the molecules we live in. And I think that in that culture where everything is crap generated by computer algorithms, the appetite for THAT may well go UP; will people get, despite our culture of disposable conveniences, MORE eager to have their pain strummed by ACTUAL HUMAN FINGERS? I think it’s kind of likely. Which, 47 years on, would make me laugh at the completely unforeseeable, most impractical and ironic way the dreamer from Coos Bay ended up avoiding the reaper. Unfortunately, if you keep taking it to its logical extension, I do have to wonder: when most people’s jobs have been replaced by AI or other technologies, who’s going to have MONEY to come hear live music? The couple thousand tech oligarchs who’ve “won” the race to be the greediest, most artless bastards. Like the CEO who’s sucking billions out of Spotify. We are headed even deeper into the apocryphal “Ancient Chinese Curse”: May You Live In Interesting Times. And this next 5 or 10 years are going to be nothing if not “interesting”; we will see if the dreamers from the Coos Bays in the world actually end up on their feet at the end of it…

Very vital conversation, great job. The answer can be and should be rooted in psychology. Human Nature is Cyclic yet EMERGENT.. ]long gone] Dr Claire W, Graves

In the late 90,s early 2000’s I worked at record store in Edmonton. We sold tons of Eva Cassidy albums. The provincial community radio station loved her.

54:30 Wonderfully summarized and a very important distinction about entertainment and art!

What an absolutely riveting conversation, Rick! Ted blew my mind with his incredibly concise descriptions of what we are all going through. Just brilliant! Thank you. X

Ted’s optimism is infectious. However, I think he’s incorrect about us being on a cusp at this present moment. I think we are going to drop lower before we reach “peak desperateness” and the flux changes in the opposite direction. Why? Passivity. People aren’t bored enough yet by being force fed mundane artistry. The majority are still perfectly ok with it. I don’t foresee it coming for a few more years, at the very least.