THE STATE OF TOURNAMENT cEDH 

I think it'd be super interesting for Play to Win to interview Japanese players and tournament organizers to dig more into the Hareruya system! I'm glad y'all are open to the idea of trying it out, at least. Experimentation is fun!

Whether it's a gameplay video or a podcast, I think "Future Cam" and "Future Dylan" popping in to share their thoughts is my favorite.

cEDH TV did an interesting analysis of the Kinnan winrate problem and came to the conclusion of good pilots do really well with it (averaging like 32% winrate or something like) but so many people take it to tournaments without much experience

Conversion Rate so much more relevant than total numbers. Magda nearly performing twice as good as Atraxa is crazy.

One of the main reasons I have heard from MTG pros who play other formats on why they don't think cEDH will ever be considered as "competitive" as other formats is because of how prevalent collusion and kingmaking is. I feel like any scoring system that helps to limit these things will encourage Wizards to invest more into cEDH as a format.

The reason the Japanese point system is the way it is is because it gives you less points if your opponents are doing worse. You get less points from somebody down a game with 930 points than you do from someone up a game with 1070 points. You’re rewarded for beating better players, and rewarded less for beating players already losing :)

These are super important conversations to have with your community. Having casual viewers see these things is also very important for the communities they are a part of. Love your content and energy, guys!

That Sam Black situation felt really icky to me. Adding it to the pile of reasons that I dont like draws earning points in Cedh.

I think the best video on Kinnan's win rate was the recent one by cEDH TV. Basically, he was confused as to why very good players kept saying Kinnan is really good, but the win rate is bad. He eliminated all of the new and players that weren't winning players from his data set. As it turns out, yeah Kinnan is good. It's honestly a fascinating well-researched video. It's worth your time.

The game ending when the stack is empty rewards Thassas Oracle wins, since that wins immediately. A dualcaster mage win that that requires you to move to combat could be stopped by the time ending while twinflame is on the stack.

So pumped to hear Dylan is putting together Sisay! Sisay is absolutely bonkers. Can’t wait to see some content with her 💪🏼

A person who draws 3 times goes into round 4 with a record of 0-3 but 1000 points. This gives them a possible point range of 1168-1372. A person who loses points in the first two rounds has a 1215-1544 possible point range coming out of round 4 if they win rounds 3 and 4. So in incredibly unlikely circumstances, it's possible for a 1-3 to have more points than 2-2

I loveeee sisay, it’s been my main deck since before mh1 released, used to play atraxa and then proxied sisay when it was spoiled and have stuck by it since. Such a fun deck to pilot and puts in work. I’ve had 2 top 16s (4ths and 8th place) in my two tournaments this year and that’s while making major changes to the deck throughout the year

I'm glad there's some discussion on separating CEDH and Tournament CEDH. Holding Priority Podcast did an excellent episode on discussing the difference.

I also went from Atraxa to Sisay this year so I appreciate seeing someone else make the same journey lmao. Feels like we're hopping on the Sisay train hella late though.

Gents, fantastic discussion on tournament play and the draw system at the backend of the video. I really think the format suffers some from the ~60-90 min time limit but completely understand the necessity of it. I've always been disheartened by playing in competitive sporting events that are capped at a time limit bc it doesn't account for late game pushes or momentum swings where the power dynamic in a match gets turned on its head. However, I think we could solve a lot of these woes by assigning a ranking structure and using "seeding" in tournament play to dope out points for quality wins vs someone politicing multiple pods for draws and skirting into the top 16 with 1 win and multiple draws. NCAA baseball did a decent job using the old RPI system to break down top tier players/teams and awarding rankings in tournaments based off of quality wins and doing something similar in cEDH/tEDH could be interesting. Downside, its a muddled and somewhat subjective system that needs constant data and monitoring to be usable and idk if the community would want to get that deep into the weeds just to balance tournament play. Love all the alternate ideas you shared though!

You guys should check out Mons’ cehdtv video in this. He had a video that talked about if kinnan was good and showed its poor rate in tournaments. Then did a follow up video showing conversion rates of popular commanders but only piloted by players with above average win rates and 10+ tournament entries. When piloted properly kinnan’s conversion rate went sky high. Rog/sy stayed almost the same. It was interesting.

Sam Black's tweet made me not want to play in tournaments

7% of total points at table means your earnings scale sependong on difficulty of the table. Tables with a higher W/R will grant more points on a won than a loss.

On the drawing issue, I dislike that using a Pact of Negation that you can’t pay for to stop a win attempt is viable, since you still get draw points for being in a pod that ends in a draw even if you lose.

33:47 - It's also super important to note that the days of "full proxy" are shrinking. We know that WotC is in communication with big cEDH organizers and creators and have told them that they want to do official events are going to need to be "no proxy". They just wired a new president, and this could easily be on his list of things to tackle. tEDH could see some serious shakeups in the near future

Maybe I missed it at the beginning of the discussion- but what EXACTLY is "Conversion" rate? Is it "Number of Entries that result in a Top 16"? "Number of entries that result in a top 4"? I don't know the definition, and it is hard to find a consistent answer.

I got real scared at the start of this episode when cam called me out for turning down the volume 😂

For proxies: all constructed formats can have 10% of the decklist be proxied rounded down(IE in a 60-69 card list the deck can have 6 proxies), the proxy cards are the officially printed dual-face substitution cards with the name of the proxy clearly printed on it, must have a printout of the text(like foreign language cards) or a traditional proxy printout of the card itself to be used while on the battlefield.

Knowing Dylan and Cam are birds fans makes me love play to win even more

Ahhh, the classic Japanese tournament, nascar, shot clock, finish line analogy!

Maybe a rule where you can only draw a match if it went to time? That way you still have draws for tiebreakers, but players aren’t incentivized to not play magic?

The Sam black situation starts off with Sam successfully politicking his way back to his turn by just revealing Fierce instead of actually casting it. He can now attempt a win and have protection for it but unfortunately someone had oppo to stop his neoform and his Fierce doesn't interact with it. In situations like this I think one of the players ahead of Sam should have forced him to use his counter so he can't try to protect his own win attempt. The second part of the situation is Sam continuing to use the same Fierce to hold the table hostage after his gambit failed, which feels icky to me. Also worth noting that the only player to make top 16 after that situation was the sisay player who was already ahead on points and wanted to draw in the first place, everyone else should have been playing to win.

I'm surprised a hall of famer like Sam was so focused on getting a draw , instead of their own gameplay . The other players should have called a judge . To me that sounds unsportsmanlike collusion -to get draws isnt competition

While we don’t have the proxy tournaments where I am, the rule for ours has been you can receive $1000 worth of cards for your deck cause our organizer has so many of them

I think they could differentiate the Draw. If the pod draws naturally (they play until its time), they get 1 point. If at any point in between the round they draw, they don't get 1 point.

Cam thinking there's an M Night Shamalan ' twist' to draws 😮 - there is no negative! 😮😅. Im not sure, but was funny 45:24

There’s a cPDH tournament going on tomorrow called Sanctuary VI. It’s fully webcam. If you’re interested in Pauper EDH competitive come take a look! 28 registered so far. I’ll be watching too.

As someone who is against proxies in most cases, I love the idea of golden bordered tournament cards. Wizard could even sell them as secret lairs option and I'd be fine with it.

On the guy that had 3 wins and then his friends” You should really listen to his podcast on this event. Love you guys!

I think it's cool how amidst the pet decks, we hear you both describe or see you trying out these "top tier" decks. We get to both the creativity of the format and the top options in different videos!

Another major point to consider if there's only so many copies of these old cards that are considered staples. One of my buddies makes the comment that you can't have as many players as you might like because there's only so many copies available

A few years back, chess tournaments began to implement a rule where players couldn't offer a draw. Same way you can't bribe concessions it was unsporting conduct and the penalty went from warning to game loss to DQ at the discretion of the judge. I think this could work in cedh like after 60 minutes a draw can happen organically but if you look at your opening hand and then draw that leaves a sour taste.

wow, i never heard of the show "a little bit more into the future than when we recorded this episode" but its hilarious how the guy is not just having cams name but also looking almost like his twin

Happy for input from others , just an idea - Potentially a system with a win being 25 points draws worth 5 or less- 5 for a game that runs to time, an agreed draw worth less points 2 or 3 perhaps? That way makes it less attractive for an agreed draw

Love your content. Thank you!

Love the idea for tournament proxies for the reserve list.

There is a point in chess that a losing player will look for the draw to split points. It’s a factor of the game that can be agreed upon or fought for. They even have rules about how many turns it will take before a draw is reached (based on turns between pieces being taken, repetitive moves, or not being able to move. It gives a dynamic to the game that keeps the person clearly at a disadvantage in a fighting position and rewards them for stale mates. Magic is a tabletop game. The comparison to sports or physically athletic games rather than mental is a bit of a stretch. I think if you can turn a loss into a draw, it’s just as good as a win. But I rarely win in my pods so I have to find some way to make the hours justified lol

36:10 and the problem here is that they have let the collectors drive them into a hole and have fixed all these loopholes with the reserved list. They will never print a standard sized magic card with Mox Diamond or Tundra on the front, because they've repeatedly affirmed and reaffirmed the reserve list. The only break in that in the last 15 years has been the magic 30th $999 boxes.

Took Nadu to SCG Con Baltimore and went to 2-2-1 (24th out of 119 participants) in the cEDH 5K. The deck is powerful, and my observations were that people respected it and threat-assessed it well, particularly in early turns. Having said that, sometimes, just playing slightly less-aggressively and letting (for example) the Sisay player put the target on their back instead of you as the Nadu player makes for mid-game win windows that just feel like blowouts. The four-player pod dynamic along with how tempo-breaking Nadu is compared to Blue Farm or other Mid-Range slog (I mean this in the most positive of ways) really makes for interesting, and rich table dynamics. I'd go out on a limb and honestly say Nadu is kind of good for the format if only for putting a wrench in the bucket of midrange strategies and forcing table interaction and dynamics to be more varied at pods that it's in. Really fun Commander, and playstyle. Happy it's here to stay for a minute or two.

I feel like the points and percent way of going about it is an elegant way to do breakers and opp win pcts. If the idea is to discourage draws, perhaps you frame it as an ante where a draw is a split pot, thus incentivizing the higher points players to not take it? Further, you could have an ID pot lose half (or some pct) before being split to incentivize playing it out?

The problem with the % system is that should a player lose his first 3 games and end in a high value pod in his last game (let's just say 3 players who won 3 games) that player would gain an insane amount of poins potentially ending around 1140 points. On the other hand a player that wins pod one and pod 2 (pod two against players who lost pod 1) and then loses 2 time would end up with roughly 1,200 points And if that player won in 2 low point pods their points would be even less

You could do points for wins and give half the points for a bye. So that way they still get a plus for having the bye but its not too big of an advantage

Maybe I'm showing my inexperience here, but I feel that the whole intentional draw before a game has even started is really the problem with draws in general. Having a draw as an out in the middle of a hard fought game is sometimes your only option, but being able to decide that before the game even starts feels counter to the competitive nature of tournaments

Hey guys! Been watching for half a year or so I think, and love all of your content. One thing, though - can you look into your Spotify uploads? For some reason the volume on your Spotify podcast is at 50-60% of every other podcast I listen to… I switched from Spotify to RU-vid mid-drive today and the audio was way better. Appreciate it!

If Dylan brings Cam's volume down every time, how high was the volume on the first episode?

So the discussion about "are 0 points for a draw bad" has come up a lot recently since that is the system that the game Star Wars Unlimited uses. The two main downsides to it are: 1. It disincentivizes people to play more controlling strategies since those go to time more often than midrange or aggro strategies (primarily in 1v1 formats). 2. You cannot control the play speed of your opponents. You may be good at your deck and play fast or at least a decent pace but your opponents may play slow or leverage that if they know they are losing. It is more spiteful but especially in 1v1 formats where you are trying to do best of 3 the way it works is say you win game 1 and are losing game 2, you can intentionally drag the time out and if game 2 goes to time the person who has won a completed game would win the match. Obviously things change in a multiplayer format but this is a big point of discussion. On one hand you want to disincentivize people from just taking the ID and not playing but on the other-hand you don't really want to give people a reason to not play an archetype or style of deck.

Tournaments every Monday a few minutes away from you!

I've had Magda sitting on the side waiting for me to actually complete the deck......lol

I love this podcast so much

My Kinnan build is Turbo Artifact. Very different to meta. I recon it would take people outside of my pod by surprise. Turn 3 wins.

I think there is a big trend happening right now with Red becoming more and more prevalent. I think Red will be better and better in the future and you guys even touched on the fact that Atraxa, Tivit, and Kinnan are on the downward trend. The decline could even catch up to Nadu as well because people will figure out how to properly slow it down. The only mono-colored deck you guys mentioned was MONO RED, every other deck that is performing well has red in it. This could be due to the fact that the recent cEDH meta is to have games go longer and longer and Red is THE fast color. Nobody expects to have wins presented as fast as red provides. #RedIsTheNewBlack

I had a pod of a Kinnan, Nadu, and magda players while I played as Godo. So yeah, both of the best commanders in cedh for mono red and simic all 1 turn away from winning on turn 4 it was awesome

I kind like the "start with 1000 pts" point system. If you take 7% of points for matches, you gey more ooint for winning against players who are performing better and fewer point for players who are performing worse. This rewards players for playing against better players, and because of the diversity of records, in theory, you wont have ties for placement. If a person goes 0-2, then you win the next 2, you still are playing against worse players. It's no different than in 1v1 there opp match % gets weighted more heavily depending on which rounds you're winning and losing in. If 7% isn't the exact percentage of points that work you tweak it. I like this attempt to fix the draw issue.

36:00 they could print an extra proxy set symbol on the card to make sure they can't be sold

Hi guys a bit late to this, but I'm just curious in these tournaments that allow proxies what's the rulings behind it? Is there a certain value a card needs to be to allow proxies, or be on the reserve list etc. And also what would you run in your deck to represent the proxy? Like would it just be a basic land with word mox diamond written on it? I've never actually played cedh but I've been following it for years because of this channel so I'm not very clued up on the tournament scene. Thanks in advance for any answers

Magda was my intro to cEDH and also haven't played it since Roaming throne. But portal to phyrexia, bonehoard dracosaur, and roaming throne want to make me come back. winning ont he stack= !!!!!

The issue with no draws is that it encourages players to pick a winner. Suppose you're in a match, you're at turns, and it's clear that nobody can realistically present a win next turn: everyone would be stopped. That match will be naturally drawn, even if there's no intentional draw on the table, because nobody _can_ win before the match is stopped. What do you do? Under MTG tournament rules, picking a winner (rolling a die, etc.) is worth a disqualification. (I believe it falls under unsporting conduct, but I'm not sure.) But that matters very little to players who are about to lose and leave anyway. If drawing is the same as losing, who cares? Roll the dice, pick a winner, and just let that player win; you could even argue that the rules say that you can't offer a concession, but there's no rule against deliberately not countering their win condition. If drawing is the same as losing, players have no reason to try for a draw instead of losing. If drawing is worth a point, under that situation above, the right play is to play on and draw: you get 1 point, whereas if you lose you get nothing. But if drawing and losing are the same, players are encouraged to just choose someone to win and let them resolve their win condition, because what's the harm? Do this enough times and eventually the lucky winner will be you! EDIT: someone might say that this is a good argument against _natural_ draws, but not against _intentional_ draws (i.e., agreeing to call the match drawn). But the truth is that allowing natural draws already allows intentional draws. If players want a game to be drawn, they can just slow down the game to a glacial pace and burn the match time, then just pass during turns. Letting players call a draw is just a shortcut because nobody wants to watch an hour of "how many cards do you have in your library? And now?".

I wonder if Magda will be even better after Bloomburrow. New 2-drop artifact dwarf, and a 3-drop artifact dwarf that fills the role of Elixir of Immortality.

The problem Atraxa has is what all food chain decks suffer from. You have to run dead cards in the form of food chain itself and either Misthollow Griffin or the Eldrazi. Because of where cEDH is and needing to squeeze all possible value from every card, any future versions of the slot for Misthollow Griffin need to do more than just be able to cast from exile. It needs to draw a card or make a treasure somehow. And can’t be a red creature lol

The problem with draws is that people utilize them at will instead of them being an end of match procedure. If organizers dont allow intentional draws and only keep them for when time ends then there won't be these exploitive play patterns. This would need judges to better police arouns the tables as to make sure the games end up having natural conclusions, but I would prefer that over the current system. Listening to top ranking player intentionallying drawing their last swiss round without playing the game really icks me.

I won a Cedh tournament on Kinnan this year, and then I got completely blown out the next tournament going 0-6 sooooo yeah it’s hard

I'm glad to see kraum tevash strutting it's stuff, unsure where it gets its metrics but I'm at least one to two of those and I love the deck, although I am starting to try rog si

The only thing I dont like about the Sam Black situation is using his counterspell as a threat. I am on board with everything else but the added threat of "if you dont take my deal, Ill let someone win and it wont be you" is not cool. That would actively make me want to not take the draw so he knows in the future to not try to hold me hostage.

Regarding Draws and Points: Assuming The following point Structure: Win = 4 Points Bye = 3 Points Draw (Due to time/Inf Loop that can't be stopped) = 2 Points Intentional Draw (Table Agrees to Draw) = 1 Pt Loss = 0 Points I believe that an "Intentional Draw" all 4 Players agreeing to a Draw, Should be worth 1 Point. This would keep the option there for people at the end of a tournament (Maybe last round or 2 depending) to draw out so they can take a break or w/e but also make it "Not Optimal" in the early stages of the tournament. This still makes it so that a "Draw" lets you keep up with the Bye Players (The bye player still got more points than you but that's a RNG thing that you can't really remove; They need more points than a draw because there's a % chance they could have won but less points than a Win since they didn't play as well). I think if this type of system was in place to "Punish" you for intentionally drawing then it would happen less. Would it make people waste time and play the full round to get the Draw at the end anyways? Probably, but you are still giving them the option to draw out and giving them something for doing so. Generally speaking in a 4 round tournament you will know at the end of round 3 What the chances are of making top 16 or w/e the break is and if it's a risk to take the 1 pt or if your guaranteed either way.

Try implementing these in your tournaments and gauge the feed back I think you should be playing to win and not to draw or king make so I don’t think it’s a big deal to remove points from drawing and maybe only award half the winning points for the bye

37:10 Reminds me of a movie called Pawn Sacrifice

Weird idea but what if a draw was minus one point? This would push people to play the game and win (I have low experience in tournament and I see how this feel weird to have -1 for a draw versus 0 for a lose - just an idea which might not have been explored that much)

Idk if you guys ever check out Mons, but he broke it down statistically on top players v new. Among “good” players I think the conversion rate is in the 30s

The Sam sitiation was cool he should be in his right to ask for the draw but the player who can counter has the right to 'make them have it'. It would be interesting to see a different form of draw system but given the context of the current system I see it as a creative move in a bad spot.

There's a new Najeela deck that has some REALLY good potential. NADU Najeela Breakfast combo is really good and I think we're going to see more Najeela and a wider range of Najeela strategies. One of the big stats you're missing is top4 tourney wins, a fair .amount of decks can get top 16s pretty consistently but getting out of Swiss with a deck like Magda and Kenrith (I play Magda and love her) but when you reach the final tables you're not going to surprise someone with a deck like tivit or kinnan.

I do think that one reason that we tend to see the same decks at each tournament is not just because they are good (because they clearly are) but because they have enough of a following that people know that they are tried and tested. They dont need to spend their freetime wondering about different single card choices and can just watch a couple of videos, playtest a little and go. I wonder if we had more fringe decks get shown off on popular cedh channels like yalls if we would start to see those decks show up more and more. I think you could make a good arguement that channels like play to win and comedian mtg played a big role in popularizing kinnan, so i wonder if you could do the same with other decks. This would require someone on the channel regularly showing it off though.

What if only timed draws are worth points? Players can't declare a tie at the beginning of a round but if you go to time you get the extra points

What do you think about playing with commander clock, giving 20 minutes for each player, and additional 4 minutes to resolve when a player exceeds their time during their turn. Past those 4 minutes they loss. That way you’ll never have a draw except for card effects of sorts.

48:05 I am sorry, but king making doesn't only matter, but ir becomes an advantage to let the lowest standing player win to take the most points of the top Standing player, if you can't win. That seems super abusable and it also becomes a game of either aim to win or prevent the highest standing player from winning to increase your chances

One of the big negatives to draws is that if they are also worth 0 points its actually better to lose than to draw because of opp win percentage. It would actually make players more incentivized to kingmake because if you end up in a draw its worse than losing for tie breakers

I've been seeing a lot of derevi decks with a NADU strategy. Nuts. Nadu is definitely here to stay

IPG 4.3 Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Improperly Determining a Winner would be the rule I'd point to in that players are taking actions outside of game actions to determine the outcome of a game, match, or tournament. I believe it would be within the power of Tournament Judges to utilize this rule as a tool to prevent conspiracy to rig Tournament outcomes. I'm frankly unsure why the rule was not utilized in this case, but as I'm not a judge and I only know what is being recounted in this video, maybe I'm missing some nuance that would explain it.

Without MSRP reprinting, the RL would still be out of price range for just about everyone. Boosters would start around $3000 and just go up in price. Sponsored proxies would be the best way to go and could be added into the entry free. It could be a date/ tournament stamped card that you could keep.

A player should do whatever they can to get the best outcome (while respecting the rules obviously). If that results in unsportsmanlike behavior, then the rules need changing Edit: I replaced "win" with "get the best possible outcome"

If there isn’t any draws you can’t have a time limit per round

Hand movements on point 2:33

On the drawing issue, it is against the rules. So technically the guy who put the players in a "prison" situation should get a dp. If they take the draw because of this, it is a dq for the entire table. Colluding with opponents regarding outcomes is against the rules and accidental king make is not as bad as basically cheating to score extra point in a tournament.

Id love to play but the only local lgs doesnt allow proxies, which makes cedh as someone who cant afford a car, ever so slightly out of my price range. I only have so many livers!

In defense of draws: 1) It is a better result than a loss and should be rewarded accordingly 2) Tournament settings already disincentivize stax pretty hard. Taking away draws is an unnecessary additional blow. 3) There becomes less reason to stop a win attempt. King making scenarios become more likely to be helpful. If a table has uneven records, it might benefit me to let player 3 win if player 4 winning would let player 4 overtake me in the standings. This is much less likely to be true if I get a point for a draw because now I can affect my standing with respect to the rest of the tournament, not just the other three players at my table. 4) Forcing a draw is a skill. It can involve politicking and it can involve carefully choosing interaction. Removing nuance and skill makes for a worse game.

I wonder if confunding conundrum will become playable because of Nadu. Wont stop it from popping off on the same turn, but will limit value turns

Alternatively, instead of draws, we can use the already existing sudden death rule.

I play my atraxa deck more mid range staxy. its alot more fun and versatile to me at least.

I want to preface this comment by saying I'm all for testing draws count for 0, bc all this talk is purely hypothetical and we won't know until we try. Another main thing to consider when talking abt draws not counting for anything is when the round timer runs out and "turn 0" begins. For all of magics history, if a round goes to time it's a draw, and draw have always had some sort of benefit for both players. However, this gets a little tricky when we remove benefits from draws. Let's say, hypothetically, I'm playing in a cedh torunament, and the round has gone to time, and the blue farm player has until eot to win the game. For the whole game, everyone has various draw engines, and it is obvious to the blue farm player that at this point I'm holding. A plethora of counter magic atp. With the knowledge that it is the last turn, blue farm goes to jam some sort of game ending combo, and will win the round if not interacted with. In previous years, the answer is simple, stop the combo, take the draw and get some benefit. However, this gets tricky if there is no benefit for the draw. If I counter the combo, I still loose regardless, but if I let it resolve, I still loose. Essentially, I have no agency in the game at this point, no matter what I do I loose. This can lead to some serious feel - bads, as the t and k has managed to win a game they absolutely had no way of winning, or they are stopped despite there being a lack of a reward. At any point in time, it is important for players to have agency on their performance, so when they are stripped of that, and instead are presented an opportunity to strip a win from an opponent for no benefit, it's a real feels-bad moment for both players involved. I'm not sure if this is a total deal breaker, but situations like this are certainly a major argument against removing benefit from draws (P.S. I loved the video today keep up the awesome content guys!)

I was wondering, you guys brought up Kinnan as a new player friendly cEDH list. If you were going to recommend colors to a potential new player, would you recommend two or three for a first deck? And if Grixis is the strongest colors but you were to recommend a two color pairing, which two colors would you choose out of Grixis identity?

I've been wanting to get into cedh tournaments lately but haven't been able to find any info on any near me. Are there any resources I can use to find some?

Its an imperfect tournament system - but as a community it can be improved 🐯 . History shows the first version of something is hardlyvthe best

@PlaytoWinMTG are y’all based in PA?

How do you turn down Cam's volume before post production?

What commanders outside of the meta would you guys like to play if you could make them work?