The Strongest Archetype in EDH | Overpowered Commander's | Magic: The Gathering  

More mana = more game actions taken which makes it more likely for you to win games. 👌

@@Spencer4686 More mana = fewer productive game actions taken so far AND the potential for more future games actions taken. Regardless of the method of mana ramp, it is a tempo loss as an investment for the future. If you are ramping less, then you are ahead on deploying your game plan and your game plan comes online sooner. This is similar to aggro vs control, is the lower CMC deck fast enough to capitalize on the tempo loss of the higher CMC deck.

what land whipes are you playing? i play windgrace since it came out with the precon❤❤

Land wipes are almost always more devastating than non-land board wipes. That's why people hate them so much XD

Yeah CEDH is a different but standard EDH when people are running limited interaction. It becomes much stronger.

@@Spencer4686 oh definitly but I would also argue every deck type becomes stronger with less interaction at the table especially combo strats. Every edh deck would be stronger if people added 4 lands and 4 interaction cards.

@@iceicejay9569 i feel like the issue with landfall is that ramp is already incredibly powerful getting additional value off of ramp and having your way of gaining value be partially immune to your opponent's interaction makes landfall incredibly powerful in most casual games

Yes, You can interact once the trigger is on the stack. But they still get the value as it's already on the stack. If it's a fetch land it goes like this... Play land Trigger on stack (value guaranteed) You target 'payoff card's with removal They crack fetch in response 2nd Trigger on stack (value guaranteed) We then resolve stack... Basically If they play a 'landfall pay off' and it resolves and then they play a land directly after priority doesn't shift between players before that trigger goes on the stack unless they move phases.

@@Spencer4686 Try this sequencing instead: They cast the landfall card (if it is already in play, then target it before the main phase instead and they get nothing) After the landfall card resolves they get priority. They play a fetch. The fetch causes 1 land fall trigger. They get priority but they pass priority. You get priority but you pass priority. They resolve the 1st landfall trigger and then crack their fetch They pass priority You get priority You blow up Tatyova in response to the fetch's activated ability. Result: They paid 5 mana to draw 1 card. That is a bad deal for them. That is a huge profit on dealing with landfall. Now you know one of your ways to interact. Ah but what if they don't crack their fetch? They can play another land right? Except they either don't have another land drop OR one of their permanents was vulnerable to removal before the first land was played. Kill the Azusa while Tatyova is on the stack and then kill Tatyova while the fetch's activated ability is on the stack. Ah but what if it is Aesi instead of Tatyova. In that case kill Aesi in response to their Fetchland triggering Aesi but before they crack it. In that case they paid 6 mana to draw 2 cards. 5 mana draw 1 (and eat 1 removal) is a terrible rate 6 mana draw 2 (and eat 1 removal) is a terrible rate You can interact.

Now Avenger of Zendikar + land is a 7 mana create an army of 1|2s. However Howl of the Nightpack is a 7 mana create an army of 2|2s. This is the only landfall payoff card that creates a big enough threat from a single trigger. However it is on rate with what sorceries do for the same mana. So counter it or play your wrath next turn. Simple interaction.

Also we should remember 3 colors (Blue, White, Red) can counterspell the Landfall card. That is yet more interaction you have as an option. They cast Aesi. They pass priority, you get priority. Tibalt Trickery Aesi. Landfall deck is sad. Black should get something like "Discard half your hand and sacrifice half your creatures, counter target spell". Black has trouble interacting with Fireballs to the head.

A dedicated MLD deck would be a ramp deck. Usually an artifact ramp + MLD deck. However you would see land ramp + MLD decks that capitalize on being able to consistently play lands after the MLD. Also, it is useful to split the Landfall decks and the Ramp decks. Landfall does not need to care about high land counts. They could just replay the same land 3 times per turn. Ramp decks (Artifacts, Mana Dorks, Land Ramp) are the ones hurt the most by mass mana destruction. Although a word of warning: ramp decks are faster if they switch to artifacts or mana dorks.* * If a ramp deck is ramping to 15-20 mana, then it makes sense for them to use land ramp to dodge board wipes. If a ramp deck is ramping to a mere 8-10 mana, their use of land ramp is a suboptimal choice because they like the style rather than the speed. You probably gained 1 free turn as a result of their style choice. Landfall decks don't care about your MLD. They will just replay their lands (although they might use some artifact ramp for faster rebuild). A better answer to Landfall decks is to remove the permanents with the Landfall Triggered abilities and to remove the permanents that grant extra land drops per turn. Landramp decks, like artifact ramp decks and creature ramp decks, are best answered by taking advantage of the extra turns they gave you. They took longer building up resources. You already started your bid to win the game. Whatever your deck does, that is the best answer to a ramp deck. The dragon deck plays dragons. The blink control deck plays ETB blink creatures. Etc etc.

@@Ent229 yeah, you bring up a good point. Not every ramp-deck is the same (though I was specifically talking about land-ramp decks, but failed to specify). I think decks that ramp with creatures and artifacts are easily kept in check with regular sweepers. Like, that's just a deck archetype (e.g. Elf-Ball) like any other and it can easily fold to a sweeper or two. As for LANDS being problematic, there's at least two aspects to it. First one just being that early game a lot of players will "spread the love" when they're deciding attacks instead of punishing the ramping player for not playing threats and just ramping to a high land count. The other aspect relates to utility lands that just have really strong effects or just generate massive extra mana (cabal coffers + urborg). And if there ever was a taboo about simply destroying these on sight (which I'm not even sure about if that taboo ever existed), it's high time that such a taboo gets thrown out of the window and there's plenty of "kind" non-basic hate -> cards that destroy any land and let the owner replace it with any basic land, which seems to be the way forward for WotC: Deal with strong non-basic lands by making that player replace it with a basic-land. You get to attack the utility of the land without crippling their mana base. The issue seems to be that despite being a singleton format with 100 cards, most decks that run Coffers and Urbog will have those two cards out almost every single game and they'll cast backbreakingly powerful cards with it (Torment of Hailfire being a major culprit) without impunity. By now you can basically play a 5-color deck and STILL just ramp out Coffers + Urborg via a green ramp package, because we've reached a critical mass of cards that can efficiently search for any of these two cards and afterwards a bunch of other really strong non-basics (field of the dead, maze of ith, glacial chasm) which incidently can also get "urborged" and now can even produce mana, which they couldn't before. If I then destroy the Urborg to be rid of all this greedy nonsense, nobody should complain. It's called interaction and you should be prepared to face it. -> e.g. play cards that let you play lands from the graveyard. but now you're putting cards into your deck that aren't win-conditions, interaction or ramp: you have to play magic a bit more fair)

You might be onto something with Aven Mind Sensor and anti tutor effects as they are strong against landfall deck and can slow down stronger decks that play lots of tutor effects.

@@Spencer4686 When I separated out LandFall as a different archetype from Mana Ramp, I extended the latter category to all ramp decks because we can apply the lessons about artifact and creature ramp against the land ramp decks. 1) Creatures, Artifacts, and Land ramp have an inverse relationship between speed (Mana Dorks) and resilience (Lands). For example Artifact ramp is unaffected by wraths but cleaned up by board wipes since it is slower than Elfball but faster than Land Ramp. How high does the ramp deck plan to ramp? If they plan to ramp to 3-6 I think mana dorks are most effective. For ramping to 8-10 artifacts (not including fast mana) are most effective. For ramping to 15-20, that is when land ramp is the most effective. However most land ramp decks are only aiming for the 8-10 mana (although I do build the ones that aim for 15-20), so if we start to run MLD, then the land ramp decks switch to artifact ramp and get better. 2) Yes most players spread the love early game. As their threat assessment improves, that will change. However at a balanced table with a mixture of deck types, that is rational and to be expected. The control deck can handle ramp decks in the end game, so it will target the aggro decks early on. The aggro decks will target ramp or control. Everyone targets the combo deck. If your deck is not the strongest late game, you pressure the late game decks. If your deck is not the strongest early game, you pressure the early game decks. 3) Utility lands are valid targets for Beast Within, Chaos Warp, Capsize, Generous Gift, etc. If someone plays a Rogue's Passage (not to mention a stronger utility land), it is a valid target. Is it worth your removal spell? That depends on the situation. If someone gets a Cabal Coffers, Field of the Dead, Dark Depths, or Glacial Chasm, use that flexible removal. They know it is worth a removal and that it is a valid target. Oh but you might want to know about From the Ashes. It is a Red spell that replaces all non basics with basics. It is a bit harsh on the 5 color decks

@@paulszki When I separated out LandFall as a different archetype from Mana Ramp, I extended the latter category to all ramp decks because we can apply the lessons about artifact and creature ramp against the land ramp decks. 1) Creatures, Artifacts, and Land ramp have an inverse relationship between speed (Mana Dorks) and resilience (Lands). For example Artifact ramp is unaffected by wraths but cleaned up by board wipes since it is slower than Elfball but faster than Land Ramp. How high does the ramp deck plan to ramp? If they plan to ramp to 3-6 I think mana dorks are most effective. For ramping to 8-10 artifacts (not including fast mana) are most effective. For ramping to 15-20, that is when land ramp is the most effective. However most land ramp decks are only aiming for the 8-10 mana (although I do build the ones that aim for 15-20), so if we start to run MLD, then the land ramp decks switch to artifact ramp and get better. 2) Yes most players spread the love early game. As their threat assessment improves, that will change. However at a balanced table with a mixture of deck types, that is rational and to be expected. The control deck can handle ramp decks in the end game, so it will target the aggro decks early on. The aggro decks will target ramp or control. Everyone targets the combo deck. If your deck is not the strongest late game, you pressure the late game decks. If your deck is not the strongest early game, you pressure the early game decks. 3) Utility lands are valid targets for Beast Within, Chaos Warp, Capsize, Generous Gift, etc. If someone plays a Rogue's Passage (not to mention a stronger utility land), it is a valid target. Is it worth your removal spell? That depends on the situation. If someone gets a Cabal Coffers, Field of the Dead, Dark Depths, or Glacial Chasm, use that flexible removal. They know it is worth a removal and that it is a valid target. Oh but you might want to know about From the Ashes. It is a Red spell that replaces all non basics with basics. It is a bit harsh on the 5 color decks

If we compare it to the new Voja, jaws of the conclave (which a lot of people are saying is very strong, atm). If you don't have a counter or instant speed removal you still have 3 people's turns to get that thing off the board before it attacks. Which means loads of chances to interact and dig for answers. With Landfall you have a lot less opportunity before they get the value.

@@Spencer4686 Let's compare to Scapeshift to Voja: Voja comes down on turn 3-4 and has Ward 3. Sure you have 3 people turns, but they would need to be running 0-1 mana removal. Most creature removal in casual commander costs more than 1 mana (With the exception of White having Swords and Path). So that is 3 people turns but every attempt was countered. If you cast scapeshift on turn 5 after playing Tatyova on turn 4, any single target creature removal (even inefficient 5 mana single target removal) and/or any counterspell stops the landfall triggers. I even had 3 people turns to kill Tatyova. With Landfall you have a huge amount of opportunity before they get the value and most of the high value targets are creatures. Doomblade the Azusa. Murder the Aesi and they only draw 1 card per Aesi. You can profitably interact with landfall.

Very true strongest doesn't always mean the best