The Third Way: Homosexuality and the Catholic Church 

Some of the priests and bishops in the USA are a bit wacky, very right wing. I've lived in Europe and Canada and they aren't at all the same on gay people and marriage. As Ireland and many other Catholic countries. USA is known for having a basket of deplorables, as you can see with Trump and his gang. Same goes for some religions ....Some are in that basket

@@atheistexchristian Yes, they tend to be even more leftist and pro-homosexual in Europe. That contributed greatly to do the scandals. Just look at Danneels, Marx or Kilsdonk.

@stapme Those priests should be dealt with, as should the leftist bishops who protected them and those who fought this like Cardinals Burke and Pell should be supported.

It's basic Church teaching: Love the Sinner hate the Sin. Smoking is a great secular example. I love my "Aunt Patty" but she a heavy smoker. She's great at cooking, actually is good at the art of conversation. Not just gossip but different things and ideas and keeping in touch. But she's a heavy smoker. It burns my eyes and when I leave her place I have to shower and change clothes. I love "Aunt Patty" i hate her smoking though.

@@TiroDvD what a stupid analogy. To compare smoking to homosexuality at any level is insulting and demonstrates your failure to understand homosexuality. Please, if you wish to contribute, do so in an adult manner, use your God-given gift of reason.

+aerialpunk do you wonder why people get emotional about this issue???

Ya it’s really weird how the LGBTQ movement doesn’t like people who don’t want them to have rights.

@@pengmaeda9908 what a good, thoughtful reply.

@@aerialpunk ya

@@pengmaeda9908 Not all rights are good.

Know the history of the Church

+Ken93 I am quote familiar with church history. as there something specific you are referring to?

+Roy Rannila Then you should know the history of the church persecution of gay people and also the Jews, and its Theocracy

+Ken93 if you aren't willing to engage in specifics I'm going to ignore you. Specifics = citing an actual event, not a bland general accusation.

+Roy Rannila that's truth where do sodomy laws come from?? and the term sodomy come from?

***** “Love means loving the unlovable - or it is no virtue at all.” - G.K. Chesterton, 'Heretics, 1905

The Wanderer "Love means loving the unlovable"? What an incredibly masochistic remark. I feel sorry for you if you actually think you have to live your life a virgin just because this foul and self-justifying church has claimed ownership over your life.

***** And God told you to be chaste, then? Or did the Church? Or is this just your personal interpretation of the Bible? And if so, what makes it better than anybody else's interpretation? There are plenty of other interpretations of the Bible out there that don't require you to torture yourself in this way...

***** You did not read my reply. I told you- God hasn't told you to do anything. You are relying 100% on the interpretation of a piece of literature. And like any piece of literature- the interpretation of it is necessarily ambiguous. Luckily as an atheist and secularist, I don't feel compelled to live my life according to religious superstition, so whether or not you can demonstrate that the bible holds an animosity towards homosexuality doesn't terribly matter to me. It also holds animosities towards women, 'slaves' and a general contempt for non-believers. But I do know that many Christians DO in fact consider God to have as much respect for homosexual love as he does for heterosexual love- and that this extends beyond just marriage between a man and a woman. Don't ask me how they make that fit with the text. I don't have to jump through those hoops. And seeing as I also rely on science, I know that enforced chastity on a person is not healthy from any psychological, emotional or physical standpoint. It is an entirely harmful practice and ideology that has had horrific consequences for individuals (and the victims that those individuals tend to molest out of frustration) over literally thousands of years of recorded history. There is nothing wrong with two gay men having sex. Like any great truth that Christian Dogma has been confronted with over the centuries- it goes through three phases: First they deny it exists. Then they say it conflicts with the Bible. Then they claim they knew it all along. And you can see already the rapidly growing demographic of Christians who fall into this third category... PARTICULARLY people my age. I think you must have seen where this whole "hey I've got a great idea why don't you just never have sex ever" thing is headed- don't you?

***** "it's sad that you get taught that in school." Spoken like someone who never went to school... But ok- since you seem to like the raunchy stuff. No. There is nothing wrong with two or more adults consenting to private sexual encounters. Animals obviously cannot give consent, so bestiality is ruled out. Any questions? Or can you offer an actual argument against this position that isn't: a) Gross! b) My pre-determined ethics don't allow this. Because you know... They're pre-determined and shit... c) Thinking about these subjects rationally has always been taboo so that means there is something wrong with doing so. And there's something wrong with you if you don't agree with either answer a) or b).

@Kyle Hartman Music they never said that heterosexuals more closely fit the model of Christian perfection. Nor does this documentary say so

1. Sexuality is not what defines us as a whole and who we are entirely as people. However, it is a part of who we are none the less. It defines our ability to love and who we love, and love is what gives joy and meaning to people. Suppressing this and trying to mentally reinforce to ourselves that our attractions aren't "What defines us" only does more harm than good, because it basically teaches you this permanent aspect of yourselves isn't truly you, despite it always being there. To embrace yourself and your attraction can, if done properly, lead to wholesome fruitful relationships that improve your quality of life. For a community who has been persecuted to this day, it does makes sense why people would want to boldly identify with this aspect of themselves. 2. By "wounded" do you refer to the pain that comes with direct attack, neglect, and denial of human intimacy, connection and relationships or "wounded" in some other term? What I always find irritating about these conversations, is that while with having good sympathetic intent, conservative Christians try to conflate the issues gay people face with straight people to give a feeling of a sense of equality and recognition. The reality is, gay people can still be killed in certain countries. Gay people can not have relationships without facing the law in many countries, and gay people in many countries cannot publicly be themselves without being assaulted. Gay people can still be kicked out of their homes for coming out.The suicide rate among LGBT youth is very high for these reasons. 3. Conversion and chastity and purity are not equally applied to both gay and straight people. Straight people, even if in religions or cultures that support chastity outside procreation, still are allowed to engage in relationships publicly without shame, have sex in their marriages (for procreation but we know that's not the only reason humans have sex) and true love. Our sexuality should not create an unnecessary "cross" that we have to endure to experience God's love.

Lucifag Really appreciate your respectful disagreement on this super important issue here. There’s so little of that these days, so it’s great to hear it! As far as whether homosexual proclivities are caused by biological or environmental factors (or some combination of the two) the video did seem to imply it was environmental, though at least one of the people did claim to have good relationships with his family and the Catholic Church growing up. Definitely could’ve used some more clarification! The Catechism just says, basically, we don’t know where it originated or how, but, as Jason Evert notes, the inclination itself isn’t sinful, but acting on it is. As a same-sex attracted Catholic man I, again really do appreciate the respect from a non-Catholic gay person. We don’t get that very much unfortunately Pax Christi!

Just remember Sodom and Gomorrah. Thanks.

You are telling my story, generally, here ... God bless you !

@Kyle Hartman Music why do you assume that it is because of a fear of punishment?

Heal yourself dude!! It's called internalised homophobia! Pity on you...God bless you!

@Kyle Hartman Music how could they be thriving by living in that way? I don't understand what you're trying to say. Can you explain please.

+Matthew Bagley But why is it that straight Catholics say gay Catholics "suffer internally" from same sex attraction but gay Catholics say they don't? Isn't suffering supposed to be expressed by the person supposedly suffering? I hear this "suffering with same sex attraction" phrase over and over by straight Catholics and rarely , if ever , hear it from gay Catholics. That makes no sense. The only suffering I've heard from gay people is due to constantly being put down and judged by straight people and the Churches that don't accept them....not because they're gay.

+atheistexchristian every one of the testimonies in the video are from gay Catholics who suffered internally. I think that's where his comment came from.

Joseph Lawrence Thanks, but I'm not convinced they're actually gay.

Incredibly ignorant.

Joseph Lawrence Yes you sure are

Really this is nonsense

Amen Debbie!

@@dukekenny9340 how is this nonsense? These people found joy and peace in their lives

Tell that to the bishops that scrapped the welcoming of gays in the synod.

playstationfan36 Yeah... we've got a ways to go.

***** Careful with your Pride (and hatred).. Or wait.. no.. Keep going. I don't want to see your kind when I cross over unto Heaven.

***** Telling an LGBT child at puberty that he must be single and celibate until he dies or have hell to pay ...is EXTREME mental cruelty and nothing less than child abuse. It's a criminal act and should be prosecuted just like any other form of child abuse...and you are an accomplice.

Steven Patrick Stone No no, it's "love" and "compassion" for these _poor_ LGBT individuals lol.

You’re still gay though

it’s okay to love other ppl dude, i hope you can learn to love who you are one day

It looks like some people shared their individual stories, how they felt and what they had been through. Is that offensive?

I suggest you watch it again. Only some had childhood issues. Others didn't express that at all.

@@davidwcooney I second that

Catherine Fanto and you're dumb , dumb, dumb, ....not to mention a bigot

Don't Lie A bigot is someone who cannot tolerate the views of others. I can and do tolerate other views even when I don't agree with them. I'm sorry that you have to reduce yourself to name-calling and demeaning in order to express your feelings. I wish you well on your journey!

Catherine Fanto Then I owe you a semi apology. But that you think a video like this that clearly discriminates against the LGBT community is disturbing. Maybe you're not aware of Catholic history, but in a nutshell...it's not very honorable. There was a time when the Catholic Church actually condoned burning gay people, and gay clergy to death. The priest who made this video is a full time bigot who constantly lies and lied in this film about who gay people really are. In fact, one of the women ...Miranda ...isn't actually gay but bisexual and has been married to a man since she was 20 and has 6 kids. Interesting how they left that out. There's so much more to the darkness of this Church and this video ...so maybe you should look into it more before complimenting them

Don't Lie I don't understand how it discriminates against them, honestly. It's just a hopeful, encouraging message for those who don't want to pursue homosexual lifestyles. If that's not you, that's okay. I am aware of some of the Catholic history, as well as Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. All of us have sinned, for sure. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek our highest good, according to God's plan for us. I wish you well on your journey, wherever it takes you!

Catherine Fanto Well how about if the Catholic Church said fat old biddies named Catherine are disgusting old crones who need to be ignored and needs to shut up with her fat old biddie stupid comments? I bet you'd think that was discrimination real quick

It is not hate to say, 'Turn away from sin." I believe you are correct. There is no changing of sexual orientation. However, just because someone has urges, attractions, and desires does not mean they should act on them. Jesus Christ offered his humanity to atone for our sins. There is no greater love than that.

Keep in mind we live in a world with billions who believe in MANY different things. Does not make what they believe in wrong and what you believe in wrong. Jesus is not the only way things are seen. At all. You are never wrong for how you are born. And if you weren't born that way you cannot say if it's possible or not.

And that is my point. You are completely entitled to your beliefs. Just like billions of other people are. What you believe is what you believe is right. What other people believe is what other people believe is right. Just because you strongly feel a certain way does not mean that other people are wrong for what they strongly feel. Man would become extinct if every single person became homosexual and that is fact. Fortunately, that will never happen. Homosexual practices have always been around. Men were having sex with men since the beginning of time and the same with women. The same with animals. It is what it is.

"Faith is not a good way to truth" ~ according to whom? If others choose faith and share faith, what business is it of yours? You are free to walk away. "You're hurting(and lying) to gay people by saying they choose to be gay, and try to brainwash them that they're going to hell (when you have no good objective evidence for this). ~ Nobody here has intimated that gay people choose their orientation. I am a gay man, and can certainly tell you I didn't. We don't brainwash. Do you know what brain washing is? "The bible is full of contradictions....and fallacies" ~ Lets see you be specific. I'll gladly address what you see as contradictions or fallacies.

or a married man and a man or married woman and a woman. get over it.

Yesss! Did u see the another documentary "Deseo de Los Collados Eternos"? its awesomeee and its similar

Wrong, they mention being accepted by the other gay people around them, but they did not want the gay sexual relationship that they had with some. The one lady was part of a gay church and was accepted but still decided that that was not the right place and that there was something off.

It wasnt an "inability" to participate in the LGBTQ community, it was the lack of something that they felt when they were part of it

@Kyle J Hartman and what does that have to do with the fact that they felt a lack of something when they were apart of the LGBTQ community? I seem to recall that they felt accepted by the Carholic Church in the end

As someone who experiences same-sex attraction, I can tell you that I've been more accepted by the Church for who I am than by the LGBT community. The Church has healed me. Is it hard to give up a homosexual lifestyle: yeah. But If we're talking mental health and wellness, I was not well when I lived the promiscuous lifestyle. I am now, now that I'm living chastely. If I ever felt a lack of acceptance from the Church, it was because my LGBT friends were telling me to. It was my own shame and guilt. It was not the Church. The Church and her ministers and Christ have only made me feel loved and accepted.

Preach it

They love you either way, the love everyone and they will always do. If you dont believe in god just see nature all sexual ineractios are done to provide new life we arent talking about god. Gay sex is not opened to life is just pleasure. And you being a person as aristoteles said makes yo be able to think and reason but you can also guide your self by pure stimulus such as pleausre. If you do the second think you are acting as an animal, as you are losing the only charactteristic that makes humans better, the reaosing capability.

@@pablogimenezmorera2559then all romantic interaction should be prohibited before marriage. No dating, no holding hands, no school dances like the prom or winter formals. All marriages need to be arranged simply for procreating - nothing more.

Can't U go pray in private or something? So annoying.

Instead of accepting gay people as they are, Catholic Church is saying to them "better be subservient and celibate or else get out of here".

It's not their self-perception, it's how they've been treated.

@Kyle Hartman Music I’ve seen many of your comments. I take it you have been hurt very badly and I am sorry for that

boicetar "equal rights" - what a convenient phrase - just call whatever you want to see the laws be called "equal rights" Are you going to enter into substantive dialogue, or are you just going to say everyone is an idiot who doesn't think like you do

boicetar well there's tolerance for you! 1) If the 14th amendment is so obviously permissive of same sex people being married, why did the current president change his mind only about 2 years ago? 2) I didn't compare gays to pedophiles. I pointed out that it is ironic for Redmond to highlight the abuse crisis as undermining the Church's position to speak on marriage when many of the abusing priests were abusing people of the same sex. If Redmond's logic holds, then the LGBTQ community would also be unable to speak on marriage. 3) I didn't compare marriage "equality" to the "Mark of the Beast" (I didn't think you read anything that I wrote, and this confirms it) I said those who are switching their profile pictures are adopting a sign of the Devil

Father John Hollowell I never said I was tolerant of lies and bigotry, what made you think that? To quote you..."but using that poor logic, given the fact that the majority of children abused were boys and young men, wouldn’t that make the abusing priests also members of the LGBQT community? Therefore, by your logic, the LGBQT community has no moral authority to say that the Church is wrong either.” You also posted a rap song that compares gays to pedophiles that exist today on your blog (on-this-rock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/macklemore-artistic-response.html) Lastly, here is your blog post...(on-this-rock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/the-mark-of-beast.html) Kind of hard to backtrack on your own words. Apologize and stop the lies. There is nothing loving about your message. You owe the gay community a huge apology.

Father John Hollowell BTW, pedophilia is sick criminal activity...not a sexual orientation. Most male pedophiles who abuse boys are in an adult relationship with mothers. Most have never had an adult relationship with another man. Get your facts straight before spreading this slander.

Father John Hollowell Whose fault do you think it is that the homosexual orientation exists to begin with? Who has the power to make everybody "straight" but doesn't?

+Seren Dumall Well the logic makes sense. We believe in hating the sin loving the sinner, so yeah

+Jakub Maciaszek but you can't do Both

Hate your sinner and love all sinners... that sounds more like what Jesus would say

Jose Antonio Sanchez Actually Jesus said nothing about gay people. Paul, who many think was a self loathing gay man who hated gays much like self loathing gay priests and ministers who hate gays...was the one who mouthed off about it. Still ,even Paul never said anything about loving gay relationships.

***** which is that the catholic church is fucking nuts

+ann marie Cassano Are you lesbian?

There's only one TRUTH, everywhere. Truth is, that some people ARE biologically born to develop SSA. Look up EPIGENETICS. That is TRUTH. And it's also TRUTH that 2+2 equals 4. And that the sky is blue.

Sol Mon They aren't interested in the truth, only what suits their own feelings. They think gay sex is yucky so of course they love this video.

+atheistexchristian - Yep. That's the problem with this mindset. People have substituted truth with belief and faith. Truth and fact are what they should be 'faithful' to. And they need to 'believe' that they can discover scientific facts. Modern religion is largely based on dogma - and on what ancient Roman emperors (disguised as bishops) have dictated to be true. They took the esoteric form of Christianity, hid the real knowledge, and threw in the Sol Invictus astrotheology as a proxy.

+ann marie Cassano Very well said...and with love!!! Jesus we trust in you.

says a lot when wacko evangelicals are on one's side, lol

Why so much hatred?

Sos de Argentina?

Zelix B​ Thankyou for that hateful anti social response...clearly you are just one of millions who goes to church and pretends to be holy!!! I get you are one chromosome away from being a potatoe however you can drop your pathetic persecution complex because its really boring and I never said it was just the church that molested children however when religions clean up their own child molesting sin and start paying taxes on their billion $ pedophile fund (they spend millions on legal fees for pedo priests THEY chose to hide and protect for decades) then maybe they can judge the sins of others There are child predators in all walks of life but the way I walk it would be reported to police and I dont believe for one 2nd that if you were threatened with being banished from the church you would go to the police about abuse.... You claim to be a person of god yet look at the way you speak to people. You are just a nasty, spiteful person who hides behind a cloak of religion and a child raping entity as an excuse to spread hate like cancer.. You are seriously what is wrong with this world and you should reflect on your own behaviour and see what religion has lead you to become. 

+Steven JG No, I mean deifying, making themselves God and creating a morality unto themselves.

Victoryin Christo Maybe you don’t condone it, and that’s good, but unfortunately the Catholic hierarchy has always acted very suspiciously when it comes to deal with this matter...I don’t remember anyone calling the police on father Marcial Maciel, and please don’t tell me you don’t know who he was...he was simply suspended from his pastoral functions and sent to a priests house here in the United States, where he died peacefully without having to answer for his crimes. And, sadly for the Church, this is not by far the only case...

@@basiliskos119 All horrendous acts of sexual immorality committed by the clergy are inexcusable. That is why a new dawn has appeared. It is up to the LAITY to hold the Church hierarchy accountable!

One of the things I have heard is that the discussion on same-sex attraction should not be a discussion of identity, but a discussion of quality. You're right; a 40 minute documentary won't do much to change anybody's mind. And while Jesus never explicitly spoke about homosexuality, the Moral Law in the Old Testament condemns homosexual acts multiple times.

Could U please walk me or us thru that Jesus was probably not interested in talking about it?

​​​@@thoronbarI thought the Bible mentions this to encourage breeding BC of a stagnant population.

Or maybe this is because he never mentioned it ...

@@PrivateGrotto Bigger Picture: the entire Bible is the "Word of God". Jesus is "The Word" who comes from God. So on a broad scale, everything in the Bible comes from God. Even if Jesus didn't explicitly say something in the Gospels, His teaching comes through every moral teaching in the Gospels. Remember in Genesis, God says "The entire world has been made in preparation for humanity to enter it. Now it's time to introduce mankind." Then He makes a man and a woman. God created their bodies specifically so that they would reproduce by having sex. Then God's very first words to the very first husband and wife are "Be fruitful and multiply." Sex is built into us as humans; scientific studies keep ending up rediscovering that men and women work best in intimate relationships as 1:1 for pair bonding. We were not built for homosexual acts. Besides the health problems that result from them, God forbids them in both the Old and New Testaments. I don't think RU-vid likes links posted in comments, but look up the Catholic Answers article, "The Bible on Homosexual Behavior".

It's because the other side is hellbent on shutting down discussion because deep down they know they're wrong...or at least that's the simple answer

No, not beautiful. It's insulting to those gay individuals who do live happy and fulfilling lives with their partners.

@@JoseAntonioSanchezr How do you know that for sure? You don’t know their heart.

I've watch 38 minutes and 14 seconds sadomasochism and bullshit. The church would love to make homosexuality illegal and would love to have temporal power that it lost centuries ago

Ken93 You know, name-calling and straw man fallacies are actually making you look as the ignorant here. You don't you actually make a reasonable argument agains what exactly was said in the video instead of name-calling with your prejudices. You don't know a thing about Catholicism, only prejudices typical of atheists and anti-catholics. Please do your research from catholic sources, then you can criticize.

+Carlos Ramirez + I know about Holy Mother Church and I find it wanting. I feel sorry for these people i want them to be happy and not die alone. No why was there reformation? Why in Ireland did the Church oppose a constitutional amendment to allow divorce??

+Ken93 Ken if you listen to what Francis said in his recent exhortation, he stressed *conscience*, the most important part of one's salvation. One's conscience goes above ANY other person's opinion, including hierarchy, and ALL Church teaching. Yes, Francis said that Church sanctioned marriage is between a man and a woman , he didn't change that doctrine. HOWEVER what he has changed is that he spoke of "irregular situations" which includes divorced people and people in LGBT relationships and civil marriages. Those who are in those "irregular relationships" are to use their own conscience and apply it to Church teaching in a way that benefits a persons spiritual life ....not takes away from it. In other words, if a gay person is in a relationship or a civil marriage , then he is to use his own conscience with God in order to assess the goodness of that relationship . NO ONE, NOT EVEN THE OFFICIAL CHURCH, can interfere with one's own , private conscience. SO please don't even listen to the trolls like this Carlos idiot, he's a 20 yr old with a 10 year old brain. He has no idea what life is about or how to respect people, respect the right of conscience, or what our Holy Father says. FRANCIS SAID AND I QUOTE " IT CAN NO LONGER BE SIMPLY BE SAID THAT ALL THOSE LIVING IN *ANY* IRREGULAR SITUATION ARE LIVING IN A STATE OF MORTAL SIN" END QUOTE !! Notice he said *ANY IRREGULAR SITUATION* !! That means those living together outside marriage, the divorced and remarried, and LGBT in relationships and civil marriages. He didn't specify just one type of irregular situation, but *ANY*. Don't listen to the far right conservative types like the Fr Hollowell's...they have an agenda that IS NOT aligned with the TRUTH of what Francis is teaching us. They ignore what Francis says and make up their own rules to suit their own bigotry. Be true to YOURSELF in good conscience... and you will be true to GOD ! Have a great day !! :)

pianoplayer7577 Telling an LGBT child at puberty that he must be single and celibate until he dies or have hell to pay ...is EXTREME mental cruelty and nothing less than child abuse. It's a criminal act and should be prosecuted just like any other form of child abuse...and you are an accomplice.

@@stevenpatrickstone766 did you even watch the whole video?

Jill Ezzell LOL what a crock of shit, lol

Wow man sounds like you've been through a lot...I'll pray for you man. 🙏 I'm really sorry about your friend. I hope you're doing better now.

Praying for you

I'm asking St Anthony to find these people for you. God bless you. I am praying for you.

yes just take out all of the books of hebrews, colossians galatians where Grace prevails. BTW with the Law of Moses shall NO Man be saved

i know they cancel out grace and the scriptures i quoted,How can you remain under the Law of Moses where homophobia is..and say you are under Grace. You cant serve Grace and the Law it will lead to nowhere. hebrews 10:9 states that the Law was abolished and Grace established. There is no where in the LAw of Christ (consisting of 2 laws Love God and Love your neighbour) that lists homosexuality as a sin. Jesus said what the new dispensation consisted of and the laws and homosexuality ban is not listed as a sin. Sin (bible definition ) is the transgression of the law, if you say homosexuality is sin you are showing you are under the Law where it is listed as taboo in the Law

each according to their faith take care

elisafuk But... The Catholic Church doesn't allow gay people to marry... So it's kind of impossible for us to not have sex outside of marriage. Which means we can't ever have sex at all... Which is kind of a problem...

Doesn't all this debate about various contradictory passages in an ancient book suggest to you that maybe it's not the best source to get your morality from? Surely we can come up with a better, logical and fairer morality ourselves than simply abiding by a book written thousands years ago by many different people living in a culture with vastly less knowledge than our own. Sure, some of the things in there, mostly in the New Testament were way ahead of their time, but it is still hopelessly outdated.

Manuel Garcia because they are insisting that they are "disordered" and that being gay isn't really that whole. some of these people are even involved in the ex-gay movement.

David identified as a Catholic man. ..not a homosexual Catholic. .big difference. But I respect your point there has been some confusion. .created by some suggesting it's ok to live this way continue acting it out and worse even promoting it I didn't see any of that in these stories in fact I'd say they rejected the sinful behaviour themselves as we are all called to do. With any sin fornication cohabitation. Etc. .

it IS ok to physically express one's love for a gay person as long as it's god-centered. that's the real third way.

it's not much of a third way cause being gay is more than gay behavior, but when gays get into relationships, most of the time it's out of love. St. Paul said we shouldn't force celibacy on anyone, and the church didn't even start stopping people from getting into these relationships until the 12th century.

maybe it's a sin to you but it's been proven it's just a normal part of people and that it's not wrong to act out on it if done in a right way

A great point! There were many people in the past who did think being left handed was wrong and that it was their "duty" to "help" the left handed by forcing them to use their right hand to write when they were at school. We now look on these people with the same mixture of amusement and disgust that we will one day look on people who try to "help" gay people by forcing them to hide their true identity. These people are on the wrong side of history.

...no, because using one's left hand is not contrary to the natural end of one's hand. The Church's moral teaching is _not_, contrary to what many people think, based on sheer prejudice, but in fact has a well-worked out moral theory. Look up Aquinas for a start, if you want to start.

Michael Hester good job Michael, I say this sincerely. You have expressed my point exactly as I would have. Btw my maternal grandmother had to learn to use her right hand when writing, as she was naturally left handed. This presented a great difficulty. I to am a lefty, I was spared this humiliation......

It is based on sheer prejudice. The rationale that the Church has since come up with to justify the approach is just an attempt to make a knee jerk prejudice seem logical. I have never heard one argument which stands up to even minor scrutiny. Please try and explain your position to me and I will answer your points.

+Ray Wing (I'm sorry, I still can't get my thing to tag people!) That's funny, my maternal grandmother is also left handed and she was just telling me yesterday how her teacher tried to get her to write with the right hand! Fortunately her mother was very strong willed, marched up to the school and told them to leave her alone and they did!

Control over what?

@@genesisrail shit dooogg

Estás cometiendo varios errores en tus planteos. Primero, interpretando por tu propia cuenta las escrituras, lo cual no es un método admitido por la Iglesia para formular doctrinas teológicas y morales. Segundo, asumiendo que las escrituras son la única fuente de la revelación divina. A partir de ambos errores, ambos producto de la teología protestante, provienen todos los demás, primero porque el sexo si tiene un fin reproductivo, algo que se puede comprender sin necesidad si quiera de apelar a la doctrina católica. Basta con entender que somos una especie sexuada producto de la evolución para considerar desordenes todas las conductas que no afecten la continuidad de la especie. Asumís que el fin último es el único, cuando no es así, el fin último de todas las cosas es Dios y hacia Él están todas ordenadas. Por eso el sexo tiene además otros fines, como el unitivo, a través del placer. Ignorando lo primero consideras falso lo segundo, si la doctrina de la Iglesia es revelada por Dios no puede cambiar con el tiempo porque Dios no cambia porque el ser es ininmutable, si cambiara la doctrina la Iglesia afirmaría que Dios no existe. Finalmente cometés el peor y más grave error al asumir una filosofía utlitaria y liberal sumamente dañina donde lo que prima es la felicidad y el bienestar de la mayoría sin importar la moralidad de los medios ni el perjuicio de otros. De ahí deducís que el fin del hombre es la satisfacción de sus necesidades (el placer sexual) y que para prevenir un mal (una pandemia) es posible tolerar uno menor (el uso de anticonceptivos). Pocas veces se ve una concatenación de errores históricos en el argumento de una sola persona, en otras palabras estás fundamentando que la Iglesia Católica está en la verdad.

@@facundobellog "Primero, interpretando por tu propia cuenta las escrituras, lo cual no es un método admitido por la Iglesia para formular doctrinas teológicas y morales. Segundo, asumiendo que las escrituras son la única fuente de la revelación divina." Yo he interpretado las escrituras como cada human antes de yo. Todo idioma humano es interpretivo, es un hecho inevitable de la lengua. La burocracia de la iglesia puede quejar como ellos quieren pero la verdad es que ellos no son inmunes a prejuicios or la falibilidad humana. Cada "autoridad" de interpretación ha fallado en algún punto, es nada más que ignorancia pura decir que solo hay un fuente para interpretaciones correctas. ... Igualmente puedes creer en cualquier tipo de autoridad si quieres, pero si consideras que la Biblia es autoritario no puedes ignorarla cuando doctrine moderna la contradice. "A partir de ambos errores, ambos producto de la teología protestante" El origin de una idea es irrelevante, también es falso decir que el hecho de la naturaleza interpretivo de un texto o la autoridad de la biblia don ideas protestantes. "provienen todos los demás, primero porque el sexo si tiene un fin reproductivo" Puede ser sí, pero el mano tiene un fin también, y ese no es tocar el violín. Pero eso no significa que tocar as algo immoral. Mientras tanto, el sexo en sus funciones como un herimiento social y como un fuente de placer y actividad saludable so muchísimas más naturales que el violín. "algo que se puede comprender sin necesidad si quiera de apelar a la doctrina católica." La doctrina puede ser lo que sea, pero es un hecho observable en todas las sociedades del mundo(hoy y en el pasado) que sexo tiene otras funciones aparte de la reproducción. "Basta con entender que somos una especie sexuada producto de la evolución para considerar desordenes todas las conductas que no afecten la continuidad de la especie." Esa es una idea ridícula y bastante secular. La reproducción no es una necesidad moral. Ni Jesús ni Pablo tuvieron hijos, Pablo específicamente recomendó que la gente evita el matrimonion cuando possible. Aún en un punto de vista puramente científica la reproducción no es universalmente necesario. Las abejas son ejemplas perfectas, la mayoría de las abejas son estériles. Si eso fue cambiado sería desastroso para la especie. Esta tendencia también existe en los mamíferos como la suricata, y también en varias sociedades humanos. La reproducción no es, y nunca fue, moralmente necesario. Obviamente los sacerdotes no tienen familias, pero eso no es desorden. Es fácil imaginar los beneficios de parientes gays, todos los beneficios de relaciones interpersonales y de un adulto capaz, sin el riesgo o la mengua de otros niños. Niños con dos padres y parientes extras que son completamente dedicadas as su bien tienen más ventajas que niños con solo dos padres. "Por eso el sexo tiene además otros fines, como el unitivo, a través del placer." Eso fue mi punto. Uno de ellos por lo menos. "Ignorando lo primero consideras falso lo segundo, si la doctrina de la Iglesia es revelada por Dios no puede cambiar con el tiempo porque Dios no cambia..." Podría estar de acuerdo con esto, pero es un hecho bien obvio en la historia que la doctrina particionado por la iglesia ha cambiado varias veces. El imperialismo de Latinoamerica es solo un ejemplo de acciones immorales que fueron apoyadas por la iglesia. "si cambiara la doctrina la Iglesia afirmaría que Dios no existe." Eso tambien es muy extremo. No es una gran sorpresa que humanos fallan, la inhabilidad de los humanos cristianos no es un comentario sobre la naturaleza de Dios. "Finalmente cometés el peor y más grave error al asumir una filosofía utlitaria y liberal sumamente dañina donde lo que prima es la felicidad y el bienestar" Es verdad que creo que la felicidad y el bienestar son importantes. Sufrimiento no es una virtud. Al mismo tiempo, esas no son las ideas que iniciaron mi preocupación. El problema principal es que los ideas patrocinado por este video son falsas. No combinan con la realidad de las relaciones gays ni con comportamiento real. No tienen motivos validos(si es que tienen un motivo) y a veces sus idea contradicen el texto de la biblia, encima de todas las otras faltas de coherencia. No es valido criticar mis preceptos supuestos cuando no los conoces, y mis laas razones par mis quejas son explícitas. "De ahí deducís que el fin del hombre es la satisfacción de sus necesidades (el placer sexual)" Incorrecto. Eso no lo creo. "...y que para prevenir un mal (una pandemia) es posible tolerar uno menor (el uso de anticonceptivos)." Eso también es falso. Simplemente es que no considero los anticonceptivos a ser un mal. No tengo ninguna razón para creer eso y luego no siento ninguna obligación a negociar para su uso. Son Herramientas. Yo si creo que el sufrimiento sin causa es un mal, eso es verdad, cual sí incluso la imposición de complejos sexuales sin sentido, pero no considero que el deseo para sexo justifica todo. Ese es una crasa torsión de mi opinion. "Pocas veces se ve una concatenación de errores históricos en el argumento de una sola persona, en otras palabras estás fundamentando que la Iglesia Católica está en la verdad." Ningún parte de este comentario fue sobre un error de hechos históricos, si quieres hablar de la historia podemos, pero todo esto so ha sido tus suposiciones de mis ideas reales. Aún en el caso que yo so incorrecto, ese no evidencia que la iglesia católica es más correcta. De hecho solo prueba que cada humano es fallible. Cual era un de mis puntos.

One of the main causes of homosexuality is bullying (homophobic or not) suffered in childhood and youth, particularly in boys.

@@jcosta8546 There is no evidence of any such thing.

Then all catholic married couples are guilty of abusing their spouses by keeping chaste and celibate when they no longer want to produce children. There is a difference between celibacy and sex for the sake of selfish pleasure. That's all I am going to say to you about this. If you don't like it, then I wish you well and hope that you find God. God Bless You!!!

?

Seriously?

Yes, seriously!

Mary Corripio LOL! Tell that to the bishops who scrapped the welcoming of gays in their synod....

playstationfan36 I am sure the bishops you refer to would agree with me about this film -- have you seen it?

Mary Corripio Calls for speculation....Perhaps they would, perhaps they wouldn't. Who knows?!? Yes, I watched this film. The fact of the matter is, the bishops at that synod SCRAPPED the welcoming of gays to the Catholic Church. Gays are either welcome there, or they are not. You can't have it both ways.

As a Catholic I may disagree with what you do, but I will always fight for your right to live free from violence and verbal abuse

Love is willing the good of the other. To truly love someone is to protect that person from sin and from turning away from God’s divine plan. And to intentionally deprive a child of a father is objectively wrong.

Lauren, since you are a lesbian, I don’t think God is calling you to marriage in this case. I think he is more likely calling you to serve him as a single person like St. Paul did. God doesn’t make junk, but he also expects us to follow his commandments.

@@Powerranger-le4up You may not think so. But I know so. God loves me. And He will bring me a family

@@jessondesign Are you sure? You can always have a close friendship with them, but I know from the Catholic Church’s teachings that God’s design for the sacrament of marriage is to be between a man and a woman. If God is truly calling you to marriage, you may actually be bisexual rather than a lesbian. Perhaps you should consider going to Eucharistic Adoration and asking the Lord what he wants from you. Allow him to guide you. You’re a daughter of Christ and a part of his family. I will be praying for you.

Jacob Olsarnevich Have faith in JESUS, The Way, The Truth and The Life, the ONLY NAME by which we are saved. Inerrancy, infallibility and Truth are the preserve of God not of any Church. The Church is a congregation of sinners. Pope Zosimus condemned the Trinity. SS Athanasius and Hilary defended it. You cannot be a Christian without faith in the Trinity. Popes and the Roman Catholic Church are infallibly fallible.

***** "You are Peter and on this rock (in Aramaic this is the same word as Peter) I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome it." (somewhere in Matthew don't know off the top of my head) Jesus instituted one church, his mystical body, and the only church around that has existed from the beginning is the Catholic (universal) Church. There is tons of biblical evidence that supports Catholic teaching (the Catholic Church canonized the books of the Bible and preserved it accurately for 2000 years BTW). The best resource is the Catholic Catechism. This is the body of teaching that contains all Catholic beliefs, practices, theology, etc. Read it if you get a chance, it sites tons of sources from Holy Scripture, early church fathers, doctors of the church, papal encyclicals, etc. Talk to a priest, they are happy to talk to anyone. I hope to see you in the One, Catholic, and Apostolic Church one day my friend. I was on a search for truth for about ten years and it finally led me to the Catholic Church. Search for the truth always, and don't give up until you find it. In the mean time, remember that the word Catholic means "universal", meaning both Jews and Gentiles are accepted into the Church (God's eternal family). The earliest description of this community of the New Covenant Jesus instituted was the word "Catholic". The curtain of the temple that separated the Gentile court from the Jewish court was torn down the middle when Jesus died. Jesus Christ came gather everyone to God through his sacrifice, regardless of race, nationality, etc...hence the earliest description of the community that followed Christ, "Catholic" which means universal. It's there man, you'll find it. BTW, Jesus is physically present in the Eucharist in every Catholic Mass around the world. As a protestant who converted to the Catholic faith, it is absolutely indescribable to be in the real presence of Jesus, God Incarnate, at every Mass....it's HOME!

***** I agree with you that Jesus never said outright, "this is going to be called The Catholic Church". But if you're truly interested in the truth you should check out the writings of the early church fathers. This can help you get some insight into this issue.

First of all, the sexual abuse scandal elicited a quick and strong response from Church authority in addressing the issue the best she could. It prompted a plethora of programs and protocols that are effectively implemented in all parishes today in an attempt to prevent a repeat of that terrible disaster. Corruption happens, and it's extremely sad, but the actions of corrupt individuals should not reflect on centuries of sound teaching when said teaching acts directly against such corruption.Secondly, the Church is asking forgiveness. The video reiterates this with passion. Refer specifically to Jason Evert's sentiment at 29:10, and the other speakers' comments surrounding it as well.

St Michael Catholic Church BIGOT

Steven Patrick Stone Ah yes, the new flippant use of the word 'bigot' to describe anyone who disagrees with you. The word will cease to have any relevancy when you simply apply to anyone and everyone who disagrees with your point of view. You know, Steve, I think you are a bigot. Just kidding....actually, maybe you are. A 'bigot' against Catholics. Dictionary definition: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices -- well, Steven, that might actually be you.

St Michael Catholic Church They aren't "hero's" , they're all an accomplice to false teaching, discrimination, bigotry, and lies about gay people

Michael Hester Truth is truth..... LIES are LIES, and no one can be happy living a lie against the HOLY God of All. I wasn't miserable because society made me ashamed of anything. Quite the complete opposite. Everywhere you go in society, you're told that gay is perfectly fine. There is NO SHAME in society and often not in churches either. But kneeling alone before the One True God and seeing what you truly are next to His Holiness SHOULD be and WAS a deeply humbling experience. I KNOW the Church loves me enough to speak TRUTH, not nice lies. Jesus NEVER allowed anyone to be comfortable in their sin, and neither did He allow me. You can ALWAYS find those who will validate your sin. Love will tell you the truth whether your sin likes it or not.....

julie s I'm sorry, but I find that very hard to believe. Society (by which I mean the mass of people rather than just a liberal minority) has only really become more accepting of gay people in the last 10-20 years. I'm 26 and live in the UK and even as I was growing up it would not have been in any way possible to come out at school. The vast majority of what I heard around me was negative towards homosexuality. I find it hard to believe that was different for you.

julie s These people in the video, having grown up in religious families and probably often gone to religious schools will have been even more exposed to a negative idea of homosexuality, making it even more likely they were unhappy not because they were gay but because they were made to feel bad about being gay by those around them.

Same. Praying for you ❤️

@@dragonfruit6532 ❤️

Você já ouviu falar sobre o courage? é um movimento aqui do brasil, padre leonardo tem vídeos sobre

***** You could find plenty online. There are a lot of great Catholic resources using Biblical means to prove that Jesus formed the Catholic Church.

***** Well... look, I'm sure you mean well and I'm sure you just want answers. And as much as I love biblical theology, I don't do debates on RU-vid (for my own personal reasons) unless they are ones of movies or TV shows on my RU-vid Channel. I hope you understand I have no hard feelings against you for asking. :) I just don't like debating on RU-vid. However, feel free to ask anyone else who would like to debate! I hope you find the answers you're looking for. God bless and Merry Christmas to you!

***** The largest group/% of pedophiles in the United States is parents and yet we don't go around accusing every parent of being a pedophile. Your hate is based on bias not logic. It's time to fact check your emotions.

httyd2sonic Telling an LGBT child at puberty that he must be single and celibate until he dies or have hell to pay ...is EXTREME mental cruelty and nothing less than child abuse. It's a criminal act and should be prosecuted just like any other form of child abuse...and you are an accomplice.

Steven Patrick Stone I'm sorry, but your argument is without basis because I've never said anything even close to that. So until you have full proof that I've said that, your argument is completely illogical, invalid, and uncalled for.

praying for u !

Beautiful!

Julie Brown Telling an LGBT child at puberty that he must be single and celibate until he dies or have hell to pay ...is EXTREME mental cruelty and nothing less than child abuse. It's a criminal act and should be prosecuted just like any other form of child abuse

***** Thank you for correcting me, Sir. A mistake by me, for which I am sorry. I shouldn't say things like that about my Mother.

***** You seem to think that, because the Second Edition had different text, then that proves some dastardly conservative conspiracy against homosexuals. It _is not_ so. The historic teaching of the Catholic Church on the matter of homesexual acts (note the distinction between _being attracted to persons of the same sex_ and _performing sex acts with persons of the same sex_) is that they just are intrinsically disordered. This means that it conflicts with the ends given for us by the _natural law_ (that is, what-is-objectively-good-for-us-given-the-type-of-creatures-we-are), because the final end (purpose) of sex is procreation, and homosexual acts are by definition not the sort of things that can result in procreation. It's worth pointing out that this is not unique to the case of homosexual acts - the same is true of, say, masturbation, something I struggled with. The text is saying that the inclination to perform homosexual sex acts is an inclination towards something that frustrates (and thus is objectively contrary to) the natural ends of our sex organs, and thus bad, in the same way that voluntarily wearing a blindfold is frustrating/acting contrary to the natural ends of your visual organs). This does not conflict in any way with the First Edition, because the First Edition says that they do not choose to be inclined towards disordered acts. Being no biologist, I have no idea whether that's always true or not, but I'll grant for the sake of argument that it is. The Second Edition says that homosexual acts are contrary to nature. This is perfectly consistent with the First Edition because the fact that someone doesn't choose to be tempted in such-and-such a way is perfectly consistent with holding that _acting_ on said temptation is still morally wrong. After all, someone with a genetic disposition towards alcoholism is predisposed to a certain temptation (intemperate use of alcohol), and his condition means that he is less culpable for alcoholism and deserves more sympathy and support than someone without this predisposition, but it still doesn't mean that it's actually good for him to drink himself stupid. The Second Edition, to me, sounds like an attempt to clarify the Church's teaching and make clear that "yes, homosexuals are not responsible for being the way they are. This does not mean that gay sex is OK, though" - there's a lot of people who would love to take ambiguities like that and turn them into arguments for "see, my gay marriage is perfectly compatible with the Church's teaching! After all, the Catechism doesn't explicitly say it isn't!" It sounds like an attempt to make teaching clear, not to "hate" gays, unless you think that not supporting someone's decision to engage in what you believe to be sinful behaviour counts as "hatred", in which case I suggest that your definition of hatred is incorrect and far too broad. Peace Eoin

***** So in other words, you have no case, and instead resort to mockery. Come on, if the Church was _really_ okay with homosexual sex before the 1970s, then you should be able to provide quotes from a couple of theologians, saints, popes, etc, to that effect. I have produced quotes that support my case, you ought to be able to support your case, rather than blithely asserting that I'm lying. Come on, if you've got proof, pony up and put your money where your mouth is.

***** God does not speak through popular vote. He established a Church, with a Magisterium that is infallible. One of the spiritual works of mercy is to admonish the sinner so that they may see what they are doing and how they are rejecting Christ's love. I realize it's painful to hear, but the Magisterium is doing just that and will continue to do that for all eternity. That is God speaking. To be Catholic is to accept the teaching of the Magisterium. Anything else is, frankly, heresy. ***** Why would closeted gays punish other gays? That makes no sense. My best friend and cousin is a priest. Your statement is implying that he's bigoted, that he wouldn't be true to himself, and/or that he doesn't have genuine love and concern for those in his pastoral care. It pains me to see you insulting one of the most positive influences in my life.

Thank you for the blessing and well-wishing. I appreciate it. I can also appreciate that your values and the values of those around you mean a lot in this discussion. But I don't think it's fair to lie to me, to your personal friends and associates, and to people who will read these comments. My concern is not that your opinion and values are different from mine; it's that you are confusing the very definition of what it means to be Catholic (as are a lot of other "Catholics," to be sure.) I don't believe that you are lying on purpose, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. If you'll allow me, I'd like to explain. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches that the Magisterium is infallible. CCC 2030: "From the Church [the Christian] receives the Word of God containing the teachings of 'the law of Christ.'" CCC 2033: "The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors." CCC 2034: "The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are 'authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them...'" CCC 2035: "The supreme degree of participation is the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed." But perhaps it seems a bit circular to take the word of the Church. In that case, you may find this explanation helpful: blog.newadvent.org/2013/03/watch-this-outspoken-atheist-penn.html If one believe that one's conscience holds more validity than Holy Mother Church, then this person either has inconsistent values or isn't a Catholic. If he claims to be Catholic, than he claims to be loyal to the Church and attacks the Church in the same breath. That's not fair to the Church, nor is it an opinion that brings clarity to the discussion. Because you asked, I personally have never had an issue with a teaching of the Magisterium that I took the time to study and understand. And I agree with the Church on contraception. A good friend of mine actually came back to the Church after really understanding the Church's teaching on the subject: stepsofstmarys.com/?p=261 One final thought: there's a difference between fundamentalism and orthodoxy (little o, not to be confused with the big o church). Catholics have never been, nor ever will be fundamentalists. The Magisterium has never taught that the Bible should be interpreted literally in all places. But we will stick to the teachings of the Church, which makes us orthodox. In my opinion, it is orthodox Catholics that you have an issue with, so it might help in future chats you have to use the more accurate term. Like I said, I don't mind that you disagree with the official teaching of the Church. Lots of people do. But it's not fair to conflate people who are better described as "Cafeteriolics" with those of us who are trying to live true to our values and beliefs. I hope you can see how hurtful it is to me when people misrepresent the Church I love so much. Thank you for taking the time to read what I had to say. Take care!

this is a bad video and it will fuck up the people who internalize it please do not fuck up your kids

@@tompov227 how is this a bad video?

NarnianLady it usually appears early in childhood through effeminate grimaces.

I read it. Lots of homosexuality going on in Rome. Ironically by the very people that preach against it.

+legolasdbk ...thanks !

Steven Patrick Stone I won't attack, do not worry about that. Our thoughts/feelings happen to be quite on the same page. As for the haters, there is very little one can do about them except pray for them. I live in a part of the world where pretty much everyone is Catholic but I've come to realize that not all Catholics are necessarily Christians, if you get my meaning. I've often debated with some of them but sometimes it is to no avail. I do know that I am a Catholic, a child of God and of the Church and when my time comes to leave this world I dearly wish for a priest to be there to administer the sacraments to me and I know for a fact that God will judge us with a lot more mercy, kindness and compassion than our fellow men and women, not to mention our brothers and sisters in Chris,t do. That is a bit of a glum note to end on, but I will leave it. Would you perhaps care to keep in touch, maybe exchange emails..? Just a thought, no pressure. Let me know. God bless!

+legolasdbk Why would you be part of a church that continues to persecute you? You' aware it's a church that supports laws in places like Uganda that imprisons people for having a gay relationships? The pope never spoke out against it nor does the church. Are you aware that the Catholic church actively fights to legally take your rights away all over the world? The men in the church spend millions to help pass legislation that will discriminate against you. If a God exists do you really think he would condone what the Catholic church is doing against you? Don't you see evil in it all? Why would you be a part of an institution where evil resides? Why not join the Episcopal church that would accept you 100%, instead of the Catholic Church that accepts only part of who you are? It's always strange to me when I hear an LGBT person, their families, or friends say they're Catholic. It would be like a Jew saying they were Nazi during WW II or a black man who says he's part of the KKK. It makes no sense.

Faith is not a suit or a pair of socks to be changed so easily. That sort of "faith of convenience" is, in my own firmly held opinion, simply not an option. Being Catholic, a child of Christ and His Church, is not a club membership, to be discarded once it becomes inconvenient or hard to grasp. I BELIEVE in . . . one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, the true Church, founded by Christ Himself upon the Rock that is Peter. How could I ever settle for less? That is the faith I was baptized in and that is the faith I hope to die in. I cannot state it more simply than that. You and I apparently have very different views and understanding of what the Church truly is, so perhaps we ought to, as the Americans like to say, "agree to disagree". It was never my wish to act apologetically or to proselytize, I simply offered my testimony, for whatever it is worth.

You can't be gay and Christian the bible says kill gay people

Not trying to be mean. Where can I find this gospel of Thomas

@@Thewritingpugster Well, google it...

@@Thewritingpugster It's apocryphal so it's not really Scripture. There's no way to know if it's true. I wouldn't use it as a sourceo f Jesus, because anyone could have written it for their own purposes.

@@tc5922 oh ok thanks

Lol....yea right