The Truth About the Smash GOAT Debate 

Hgod

@@LucasSyrup him seeking out for sponsor money he’s getting into the scene makes him the goat 😂

Ppmd just for having that tag

S2J is the scorned god

@@pilotmagus3303 nice 😂

I said the same looking over his tournaments. What the hell man

@@JeramiJoseph I had to pause the video to think about it for a second lol

That’s a really great comparison

I like this comparison

this comparison doesn’t work because Jordan is the best player to ever play Basketball, which is why he’s the GOAT. Prime Armada would get bodied by any top tier player currently competing, so how can he be the GOAT? He’s not the best to ever play.

@RetroEternal There is no evidence to support that, he quit before we could find out.

⁠@@jonwind3383 Armada is Ken 2.0 - just like Ken before him, he dominated his era but eventually became outclassed by the eras that followed. Armada retired nearly HALF A DECADE AGO. The game, meta, & skill level has evolved so much with slippi - everyone is so much more cracked than they used to be. You can’t deny that, that’s facts. That is evidence to support that. Anyone in the top 25 would BODY prime Armada. Mango is the GOAT & Hbox is 2nd. Zain may finish the GOAT or 2nd depending on how his career unfolds and if his dominance remains.

I know nothing about soccer 😂

​@@JeramiJoseph It shows!

@@JeramiJosephMessi > Ronaldo easily lol

mango was ranked and regarded as the best player in 2021. he was also considered the best player in the world in 2008 and 2010, and the person who made retroSSBMrank now thinks that it is wrong. so mango has like 6 years as number 1

I dont think you've been playing too long nor watched the video. Mango's strongest argument for dominance is longevity. He was also ranked #1 from 2008-mid 2010. And 2021 he was considered the best. He's also just straight up been better than Hbox as of this decade.

@@yeah2646 Online results don't count. Furthermore, his years of dominance before 2014 have nothing to do with the fact that he hasn't been ranked first in 9 years.

@Zion even going by offline results in 2021, mango was pretty firmly the best player even if there were no formal rankings. Also are you the real zion lol

@@yeah2646 Even if we ignore the fact that 2021 was an incomplete year in which most of the few offline tournaments that were held were invitationals based on online results and consider whoever had the most wins from August to December the best player of that year, Mango's offline results still don't favor him because Cody Schwab was the best player of 2021 in that regard. He won Riptide and Smash Summit 12, and placed second in the Smash World Tour NA East Regional Finals whereas Mango won once and only placed in the top 2 one other time, which was when he was beaten by none other than Cody Schwab at Smash Summit 12. And no, I'm not the real Zion lol, just coincidence

Why don't people talk about that loss when they mention Armada's consistent record stats? They always say "From Silent Spectre to Swedish Delight" for some reason.

Oh man I didn’t know this! What year was this do you know?

@@JeramiJoseph It was Pound 4 in 2010, the same tournament SilentSpectre got his set win on Armada in winners. Amsah would beat Armada later on in top 4.

@@RainWasTaken damnnnn I had no idea! This is really cool to know! Great point that no one talks about it wtf

@@JeramiJoseph Right? SilentSpectre’s win always got a lot more publicity because he was just such an unexpected player to beat Armada. But I want people to remember Amsah too; that guy is a beast

I thought it was the other way around! I know there’s debate there, but tbh I know nothing about soccer lol

@@JeramiJoseph lmao

Yeah it’s always a fun but somehow cut throat debate lol. Some people love getting real into it when it comes to the goat debate.

If going by the number Hbox has around twelve more major wins then both mango and armada, AND more years ranked as 1st. Armada has higher dominance, Hbox has higher success.

@@AL-lh2ht Hbox has 2017-19 plus arguably 2010 as #1 for four years in total, while Armada has 2011-12 and 2015-16 for four years total #1 as well. With that as a tie, you could look at years as top 2, in which case Armada would come on top. You're right about total # of majors though, though there would still be a difference when looking in more detail at the size/stacked level of some of those majors, as well as overall win %. Even looking only at numbers is not that straightforward.

What's Armada and Mang0's record in terms of head to heads?

​@@oldschoolhistory3246 28-21 in favor of Armada

Thing is, he did retire. Mango is still adding to his legacy

​@@jakefromstatefarm6969His legacy of losing to Fizzwiggle and smurfing and supermajors lol. Armada's legacy is impeccable, whereas Mang0's is anything but.

@@diek_yt i mean the goat argument really comes down to what you personally value, and there's no objective method of assigning the value of each characteristic. How much do you value longevity? Is it better to be consistent or have high peaks and low valleys? Should poor performances be negatively valued or neutrally valued. How much does it matter what era you played in? In my mind armadas consistency is much more valuable than mangos up and down performances. Armada loses ground due to not playing in the most difficult era, but part of the increase in game quality is due to the controller changes and can't be considered a knock on him. Armada loses ground due to not playing for as long as mango. Depending on how someone personally weighs each quality, you could have differing results. I think mango definitely had the best argument by the end of 2014. I think by armadas retirement at the end of 2018 he definitely had the best argument. In the 5 years since then, Mango and Hbox have both been adding value, through being successful in the most difficult era, through playing for longer, and for adding some more top level years to their resume, especially mangos 2021 and hboxes 2019. I've thought about goat arguments a lot, especially in the context of baseball, and in many sports there are multiple players with logical valid arguments. Personally I value consistency a lot so armada would be the goat in my view, but the era adjustment as well as longevity has made the argument close. If someone felt longevity was more important than I do, it would make sense for them to pick mango. My view could be changed depending on the actions of hbox and mango in the future, as well as the new legends like zain, but as it is, it's armada but it's closer than it's been since 2017.

Armada was one of the few, if not the only one in his time, to have a winning record against Mang0

I think mango’s longevity has a huge role on his. He had 2 big reigns and still plays on top to this day. Plus his extra half year reign at the 2nd half of 2022. Def can see another mango year which is wild

Sure let's look at Armada's stats. What's his head to head vs Leffen and Hbox? His h2h vs Mango doesn't show dominance either except for maybe 2 years. Sure Armada was incredibly consistent but is that really important when he literally spammed Peach D-Smash to the top his entire career? So you value consistency and I value dominance and longevity. What's his record vs Zain? Oh we will never know because he retired to protect his legacy... That's your GOAT right there, quitting when competition gets tough.

@@chuifongtam4703 i hope your life is okay, brainlet

Dude mango abused hbox til 2015. You’re talking out of your ass

​@@sareem8844Hungrybox is VERY close to having a winning set record against Mango.

They def have some insane stats. Especially armada 😂 mango has the longevity with being on top and that’s what Carry’s him in the convo

Longevity is literally in the name -- GO-AT. Being #1 for a period doesn't make you the GOAT. If he was absurdly dominant, sure -- he was top 3 for a long period but really only destroyed indisputably for 2(?) years and even in those years the other GOAT picks are in the same league, not far behind.

A player retiring just as the competition gets tough is the exact opposite of GOAT definition IMO. Ken was arguably more dominant than Mango and Armada but is he the GOAT? No because he played in an easier Meta.

@@attention_shopping Exactly, being dominant for 2 years (Armada) doesn't mean you claim GOAT status. I feel like real GOAT sh-t is just playing and continue to dominate as Mango has.

@@chuifongtam4703 you "feel" like--you betray your own capacity for intelligence to commit to the idiocy you were born into. it's okay, you can join us, and raise your iq by using basic logic to determine that Armada, by definition of greatest meaning the greatest at the game, is overall the greatest player of all time. Sure, you can call Mango the GOAT and say his mentality and impact mean more to you, but when people are talking about the dry, normative definition of GOAT, it is 1000% Armada.

​@Gladius it's definitely true, people won't say Armada because you root for home, im Snglish so obviously I root for Armada. Even then my favourite player is HBox but there was a long period where people detested this man an unreasonable amount. Even now he isnt considered hype or anything so people won't say him. Hence why Mang0 wins, most popular with people, champion of the USA and plays hype.

Def has a factor 👀

Armada has by far the highest dominance that is impressive even compared to greats in other sports Hungrybox has like twelve more major wins then both mango and Hungrybox and has more years ranked 1st. And has the highest average yearly ranked period. Armada is the most dominate and Hungrybox is the most successful player. Mango is behind both and has not been ranked number one since 2014. It takes a lot of cope for anyone to say mango is the goat.

@Gladius what detestable things has Hbox done?

​​@@Ecstasy404 only thing that comes to mind is looking at players controllers for seeing their di other than that people always talk about t "These things" hbox has done but never mentioning them I genuely really curious for I'm a part of this community for like a decade and have never heard a proper explanation

Pre-Gods area is meaningless. I can't even watch videos from then because the meta sucked so much. They are seriously boring to watch.

If you're gonna put Armada over Mango, you might as well put Hbox over Mango.

Uh it's not a debate, Mango is the Goat as he was dominating for a longer period of time (20 YEARS) AND IS STILL DOMINATING EVEN AFTER ARMADA RETIRED. Armada was dominant for what? 2 years? when people just ran into his lame ass Peach spamming D-smash. Armada is lame af and had almost no social media and influence on the game either. Mango's playstyle also attracts more viewers. What happened at Full House and Genesis 1,3,5? Armada got slapped. Mango obviously have lower lows but he wasn't trying during that time. This kid lives and breathes melee. He's the GOAT

Not to mention Armada got bodied by Zain like 80-20 last time they played. Armada would not stand a chance in today's meta while Mango is still competing

Wasn't Armada like 4-8 vs Leffen, 3-9 vs hbox in his last 2 years of retirement? That means people are better than him and figured out his lame playstyle that's why he retired because he's scared of losing his lame ass "title". Meanwhile Mango is still playing like the GOAT he is

@@chuifongtam4703”People just ran into his lame ass Peach spamming D-smash” People like who…Mang0? If Armada wasn’t that good, why did Mang0 lose to him so often? Armada has a winning record over Mang0 and essentially everyone else he’s ever played. He also has a better record against most top players than Mang0 does.

@@jordanstanford6241 Mango lost to him more often because he wasn't trying. Mango still won a major in EVERY ERA for 20 YEARS and is STILL competing. Where is Armada now? Near the end of his career he had losing record vs Hbox and Leffen. And was dominated in friendlies by Zain. That's called being scared to compete cuz he (armada) knows he can't compete anymore and retiring to 'protect' his legacy, that's some p-ssy sh-t. Real goat sh-t like Mango still playing and winning majors.

Doesn't stats say Armada was getting bodied by Leffen and Hbox most of his career? Yeah Armada was dominant for like 2 years and consistent for 10, but Mango is STILL competing for 20+ years and is STILL COMPETING. That's some real GOAT sh-t. You are obsessed with stats and think a quitter is the GOAT.

I was dominant in high school basketball too 10 years ago lol. Does that make me the GOAT of basketball?

@@chuifongtam4703 I like how your entire argument for every comment you leave is "yeah, all logic would tell you armada is the greatest player of all time, but the way he wins compared to others makes my tummy hurt"

@SleepingChimes armada is the most consistent player of all time you clown. He was only dominant for 2 years max. He has pretty even records vs mango, leffen and hbox overall. And didn't he quit early because he knew he was getting bodied? That's not goat mentality. He knows he would get bodied by cody, zain and leffen today, meanwhile mango still out here. Armadas lame personality doesnt help either

@SleepingChimes how did armada do vs leffen in his most recent years? 8-2 in sets in favor of leffen. How would armada fare against zain today？oh we wont know cause he QUIT. you really think someone who quits when they're losing is a goat? Someone who complains on twitter and brags about beating cody when he sucked lol

It's okay to think Mango isn't the goat. It's not okay to lie and say he wasn't ranked #1 in 2013 and 2014.

That depends how large the difference in timeframe is between the long-time runner and the one year wonder, and how much you weight peak performance vs lifetime. In a debate like this there will be many factors to be taken in, and people value them in various ways. Personally if you were comparing a player that was hanging near the top for 10 years against someone having miracle run that only lasts one year, I'd go with the former. 5 years vs 1, I'd still give it to the longrunner. Gets tricky closer you put 'em

For real haha. I kept telling people that he won more than 50% of the tournaments that he entered over his whole career, but I had no idea how much more than 50% that it was lol.

Yeah, more convinced it's Armada when he literally just dominated for 2 years and was extremely consistent then quit when the competition got tough. What's his record vs Leffen in the last 2 years of his career? Your GOAT is a coward. My GOAT (Mango) is still out here competition for his fans for 20 years, that's real GOAT sh-t.

@@kode-man23 Ok so you value consistency, but I and many other fans don't care about that.

I think Mang0 edges out Armada simply by the fact that's he's still competing and getting great results to this day proving he can evolve as the meta continues to shift throughout the online era. If Armada didn't retire, maybe he would've been the same way, but the reality of the situation is that he DID in fact retire, so we'll never know. Regarding Mang0, we DO know.

Yeah I totally see both arguments! Oooo zain in the goat talk would be super sick. But he has yet to win a tournament from losers. Can’t wait to see that happen

@@JeramiJoseph I think it’ll happen eventually, but yeah he seems to be a player that has to win from winners usually

I can't respect a p-ssy (Armada) that retires just when the competition is getting stronger just to protect his "legacy" of dominating for like what? 2 - 3 years? That's just some coward sh-t, Retiring because he knows he can't keep up with Hbox, Mango, Zain, Leffen, ect. Meanwhile, Mango out here winning majors for 20 years and reversed 3-0 Zain, probably the strongest melee player of all time. Armada doesn't deserve to be talked about in GOAT discussion IMO.

Especially with him adding in so much money and time into the scene lately. That alone can make you the goat 😂

People somehow completely ignore Hbox around twelve more major wins then mango and more years ranked 1st. “But mango is so sick”

​@@AL-lh2ht Or "Hbox only knows how to play puff and doesn't have any tech skillz" lmao.

@@qwposwpo9249 how hard doess someone need to cope to think playing a lower tiered character means it means they are the lesser player.

If Juan isn't the GOAT already, I think two more years of his usual consistency would more than cement his place as the best to ever do it.

Would Mango be the GOAT if he retired after winning back to back EVOs in 2014 + MLG + TBH4, and had a winning record over Armada at the time? No. Armada would have surpassed his legacy at this point, same as Ken. You can't just quit the game and expect your legacy to stay the same. Mango was extremely dominant from 2007-2009, 2013-2014, and 2021 was arguably #1 as well. You likely are a doc kid and didn't watch that period of Melee, but it's insane to not recognize Mango was indisputably #1 for many years. Mango is the GOAT - it's been 6 years that Armada left and Armada would get washed by Zain now that he is a top player and the meta has developed.

This is hilarious lol. I could have asked it at the very end 😂😂

@Gladius well, chat gpt is more or less the culmination of the internet's views and opinions on things, no? Everyone in the smash community knows mango, but I wouldn't be surprised if some newer players don't know about armada. And even those that do seem to downplay armada, saying he was playing in ancient times and acting like he would've fell off if he continued playing as if he would exclusively be affected by meta changes (despite many top players who continued playing after his time staying relevant). Conversely, mango gets talked about with constant adoration, every major win seemingly contributing to the GOAT argument even with many mid and terrible performances inbetween. What Armada could never win over was the zeitgeist. He was always too low key, too humble, too boring, frankly, to be remembered for anything more than his outstanding record. It's like that old csgo meme goes: is it me or is olofmeister a bit of a boring player like u see it at the end of the game "oh wow olof has 32 kills" but u can never remember them. can u remember a single olof kill ? but try guardian...u can see the flick i remember a guardian flick. You could probably figure out who would slot in for who in the context of melee.

@@scouthatesrainbows That is not remotely how chatgp work lol.

@@AL-lh2ht then explain how it works. I presumed it was a mixture of aggregated data and pattern recognition, hence why it spouts out opinions and ideas that can sound reasonable at a surface level

Yeah I totally see that. Just makes for good discussion when talking about melee since it’s a bit more gray area

Also, Messi for Soccer and Shohei Ohtani is on pace to be the GOAT for Baseball - I know, I know, baseball isn’t the best sport, I hardly follow it, but this dude is different. He’s by far the best 2 way player (hitting and pitching) since Babe Ruth who played in the 20s, so he’s almost universally projected to be the GOAT after a few more years of dominance.

Melee has the same problem as the NBA with the goat debate. It's hard to compare how Armada or Jordan would do with modern competition in a different metagame. Some want it to be a popularity contest in which Mango and Hbox are on opposite spectrums of that. And the rest either want it to be 100% titles/majors or 100% longevity based. Theres not going to be a consensus on it.

Wayne Gretzky is the most clear GOAT I agree. Hockey its Gretzky. Football its Brady. Basketball its Jordan. Baseball its Ruth. Soccer its Messi. Tennis its Djokovic. Melee its Mango.

Ohtani is a damn beast! @@RetroEternal

Hbox def over armada. I just would give it to Hbox and Mango at this point

They both have super solid arguments and I can see all sides, but mango has the longevity yeah

@Gladius I am lost. Why do you say that? Before anyone beats what? Armadas european streak?

@@JeramiJoseph mangos “longevity” is only one year ahead of being a two years being a “ranked” player and one year being a top player before Hbox become a top player. This is not even mentioning Hbox has more years ranked 1st and higher average rankings.

Sorry dude, but Hbox is an *nattractive Jigglypuff player who is rightfully seen as the villain of the Meta. Armada is better just for playing Peach!🎉🎉

Armada is amazing

@@gladius8825 "b-b-but mang0 is the most influential player in melee!" -Bobby Scar, probably

Hbox didn't win a major from Apex 2010 - Paragon 2015. What consistency? Man was dryer than the sahara while getting dominated by Mango

😂 I just went with the more popular guy lol I know nothing about soccer haha

He won back to back to back majors. I couldn’t believe it either!

And part of the reason why Armada isn't the GOAT, consistently losing to Leffen throughout his entire career. Getting figured out and rather than adapting, just complained about match ups, that's not my GOAT

​@@chuifongtam4703man armadas got a penthouse suite in your brain lol

The way sounds like a good list to me! Mines probably very similar

Lol I know nothing about soccer 😂 just threw in the most popular name since I know it’s him vs Messi for the goat

Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal (a tiny nation). Messi struggled to win major tournaments with Argentina (one of the all time great footballing nations).

Yeah I agree with this hardcore. Armadas record is untouchable but mang0’s longevity at the top speaks volumes

But past success should hold way less weight than current dominance. The meta and skill level has evolved so much, any player in the Top 10 would body prime Armada. Armada is Ken 2.0

@@RetroEternal Correct. Zain bodied Armada near the end of his career and Armada never brings that up lol. Past success should always hold less weight than current dominance, well said.

@@chuifongtam4703 Zain never beat Armada. Pathetic bastardization attempt.

@SleepingChimes cause armada quit just as zain wad getting good lol. You idolize a quitter just like yourself

sadly withh Hbox making a absurd amount of money through streaming and other ventures he may lose his motivation to be the best. Espeicaly that he was winning only two sets away from being ranked 1st last year (but ranked 5th, which show just how absurdly competive last year was.

I think it’s longevity yeah. He’s been on the top for so long. Even with slumps he still comes back always to do well

Armada wasn't really "crushing" the gods, as he was really just playing defensive, camping, crouch cancelling, and spamming D-Smash on Peach, players just couldn't figure out how to beat him. By the time players like Leffen, Hbox, Zain, and even Mango figure him out, he retired. Armada should not even be considered into GOAT discussion IMO. Even Leffen figured him out early in his career which forced him to switch to Fox, and Armada's fox still gets absolutely bodied by Mango lol. Armada is no GOAT.

thanks. of course hes the goat lol. who else would it be?

I totally see this side of the argument. Some don’t believe in longevity, but it plays a huge part in my opinion. True that, of all time is the main part of it!

Completely agree. Armada is impressive sure. He is dominant sure for 2 years. But GOAT means something different. It factors in longevity, and any player that "retires" just as the competition was getting tough is not deserving of that title. Mango still out here competing after 20+ years. That's a real GOAT. Past success does not hold as much weight as current success and willingness to compete IMO.

​@@chuifongtam4703you keep saying 20+ years in all of your comments even though it's only 16 years. Your arguments would be so much better if they were filled with lazy lies.

You cant. Hbox can become the #1 player for another 3 straight years and Armada can come back and JV5 everyone in tournament but Mang0 will still somehow be the GOAT.

Mango has not been ranked 1st since 2014.

If anything, the GOAT status should either belong to Armada VS Hungrybox.

That’s my same list too!

That’s awesome! Thank you so much 😄 lots more coming real soon

Thank you so much! So glad you’re around watching and supporting ❤️

Actually nevermind Ken’s easily the GOAT

Yeah let’s just make it Ken. But seriously this is a nuts breakdown. Def a solid showing

@@JeramiJoseph Thanks, appreciate it! And your video was great at explaining each of their arguments as well. I just saw a lot of misinformation spreading in the comments so I thought I’d put up some more information lol

great analysis

There were no rankings in 2021. Hbox has higher yearly ranking then Mango. Like you are straight up lying here. In addition counting super is super sketchy and is mostly a informal term. One problem for it in examplke is for whatever reason like half of major pre 2013 counted as super majors.

Glad you enjoyed it 😄

You’re welcome

I think he is based on his longevity and highest peaks etc

Yeah Mango is the goat, it's not like he placed outside of the Top 8 100 times while Hbox and Armada placed outside of it once and NOTHING.

I’m no soccer guy 😂

Messi is the goat

Thank you so much! Means a lot hearing stuff like this

I dig it 😎

That ranking is just the first half of 2023 where clearly leo hasn’t been his former self. He’s even said on Twitter that he still loves playing, but competitive smash is far from his first priority anymore. Dude is cemented as the goat of that game for a long time.

Actual based take

Appreciate it dawg. He has a solid case absolutely. If he kept playing hands down he had it. He still played for so long though, but the longevity of mang and hbox is longer so it’s so hard!

@Gladius if you look at the stats Hbox has the most years ranked 1st and most major wins. But these objective facts messes with people narratives so they pretend it does not exist.

@@AL-lh2ht Yes that's true but a lot of the tournaments that Hbox won didn't have Armada in attendance. There were 42 tournaments that Armada, Hbox, and Mang0 all attended and of the 42, Armada won 17 of them while Mang0 won 9 and Hbox won 8 with the remaining 8 won by M2K, ppmd, leffen, and plup. Also, Armada beat Hbox 33-19 in lifetime so Armada has the edge there. I'd say Armada > Hbox > Mang0.

@@chippukumikyoku7267 "Tournament does not count unless Armada attends, yes even if hbox bopped Mango at said tournament" This isn't one or two extra major wins, its like a dozen more.

Right on! A cool way to look at the comparisons

I don’t know shit about soccer. I tried my best lol

be glad we acknowledge your kickball game at all

You’re right. I don’t know shit about soccer lol

@@dylanoleary3805 actually made me laugh out loud. Thank you

I’m a melee guy, not a soccer guy 😂

Yeah I love that perspective you have! Many are saying it could be hbox now since he’s putting so much into the smash scene right now etc. not only a competitor

If you want to talk about value to the community, commentators and TOs should be in the argument for the goat.

Yo thats awesome! Ggs and appreciate the support ❤️

No idea what this is 😂

@@JeramiJoseph I've been inspired by the same. Big time. Cool to see someone else take a similar approach to talking about Esports

@@qmanchu super stoked you enjoyed! Appreciate the comment homie! Got some cool stuff in the works for the future 😄