The moral of this story is always be kind to each other even in times of difficulty. Good behavior may be it’s own reward, but sometimes it also gets you the rights to Bittersweet Symphony.
The REAL moral of this story is don't mess with Baby Boomers and their money. They will literally lie, cheat and steal to keep what they believe is thiers. The Greatest Generation fought brutal battles to give them the world, and they have no interest in sharing it with anyone. We all live in the the age of lawyers and litigation for the sole purpose of keeping their money and property safe. They will sell anything. They will kill anything. Nothing is sacred. Nothing. Not even the children they fail to raise, but have no problem criticizing. When historians/anthropologist look back from 50/500/1000 years from now, it will be their generation and their wonton and unspeakable greed that will be the the turning point to our society's collapse. We all just had to play their miserable game, for better or worse. I don't believe in hell but if there is one I hope all member of The Stones are in it eventually. Except Charlie. Solid dude.
The whole hook of the song is the sample from the orchestral version of "The Last Time" (which sounds _nothing_ like the Stones version btw), so while he was probably entitled to use the sample since he acquired it legally (that's my recollection; I haven't watched this video yet), it's kind of a stretch to call it "his song". Even the title is spectacularly lame (it's a bittersweet sounding 'symphony', so he called it "Bittersweet Symphony" 🙄; if he bought the rights to the hook from "Satisfaction" and sang over it he'd probably call it "Old 60s Rock Song"). Take away the music written by others and there's no song here.
@B. G. I think he got the rights for the orchestral part, which is the right thing to do, and as you said, it sounds nothing like the original Stones song. Given that it was based on a much older song, and Keith even says it goes back further in time, I see no legal problems at all.... just that prick, Klein. As for the musical merit, it has a different bass, words, and vibe, so I have no problems (and I HATE sampled songs). I play guitar and bass and write songs and, as stated, would never sample, I really like this song. The whole album is great.... cheers.
after listening to this whole story, this song actually was ironically a bittersweet symphony. What a wild ride. It's great that at the end it became sweet thanks to the Stones doing the right thing.
I was there at Manchester 2018 and it was the last song Ashcroft performed, and upon its conclusion he said "Rolling Stones forever - Allen Klein, I'm coming for you.....like Tony Soprano".
Aw, this story turned out nice. With all the layers and complications, ins and outs of the courts, when it was all over, the whole thing really did end up just being an actual bittersweet symphony.
I think you're missing the part where the stones caused Richard Ashcroft a lot of shit and claimed royalties they didn't deserve. Its like pushing some one off a cliff just to save them. You cant say they did something good. It wasn't them who ended things finally. It was Richards new manger. His solo careers manager who made a new arrangement. Before making comments, listen.
@@blush-n-bashful4790 "In addition, Richards and Jagger requested that ABKCO pay extra for all his troubles over the years". That's quite a push off a cliff.
@@Kariakas I mean, taking the majority of the royalties during the peak of the single and then throwing them some bones 20 years later. Considering inflation and the % the reimbursement was compared to what was raked in by the Stones, it doesn’t seem like they were really that class of an act. Better than nothing, but still pretty shitty.
Oh man, that is FUCKING AWESOME!!!! What was an extremely sad and angering story - and a lesson in abject greed - has become a happy, life-affirming story. And good on Mick Jagger and Keith Richards for being stand-up guys about this. They were never involved in the lawsuit over "Bittersweet Symphony" to begin with. They also knew that of course they never needed the money for it, as they are each worth hundreds of millions of dollars and have been for decades. When they finally had the chance to put the situation right, they did so. I am very happy that they did do so. 👍🏻
Whether ABKCO actually enacted Mick and Keith's directive to pay Ashcroft what he well deserved is not verified here, and given the Kleins' behavior the vileness likely continues; Ashkroft should be paid his due.
The good will generated as a result of this magnanimous gesture was probably worth more than the couple of million in question, and as you've pointed out they hardly need the money. It's a shame that Jagger has very recently done so much damage to his reputation by coming out in opposition to personal bodily autonomy; then again Richard Wagner was an anti-Semite and is still selling a lot of recordings.
Too me, this was one of the biggest injustices in the history of music! SO HAPPY, to hear that it had been squashed. Go on you Stones, for giving the rights too Richard. Now he truly enjoy the fruits of his labour!! ✌🏼
While the Stones song was inspired by an old gospel song the Staples had cut a version of, it’s still a different song. Klein owned the publishing to TLL, and Jagger and Richards were the composers. It’s not as complicated as you make it sound.
Nothing screwed about it. People own property it is that simple. It is the basis of western culture. If you do not believe in private property you are a communist.
@bighand69 It's not always that simple, and I think you misunderstood what the op meant. In similar cases, the similarities between a pair of songs can be subjective or a matter of opinion as to if their was actually copyright theft, it's not always clear, that's why we see them turn into complicated court cases, if it were an obvious violation then they wouldn't be getting dragged out in court, it would be a simple decision and the rightful creator would win. How can you fairly and accurately determine ownership if it boils down to a matter of opinions between 2 disputing parties? I believe that's what the op meant, they're not saying copyright ownership is confusing if you flat out copy someone else's work in cases where it's clearly obvious such as this, they're saying sometimes you can't really tell if that's the case, how many songs can possibly be made before one ends up unknowingly sounding like another? Certainly, if one believes their work to be stolen, and the other party claims it was their original work, that's where the ownership confusion comes in. I'm not certain if that's what they were implying or not but I'm quite certain the op is not advocating for communism, derp.
IDK if I would go quite that far. Yes, The Verve did get screwed here, but at the same time that could have been avoided had they not built a song around a sample.
The obvious unasked question is how the f did manager John Kennedy convince stones to give back everything and even invite him to open...smells Like Blackmail
@@SMDAHL I don't think it really requires a conspiracy theory. There's been a fair amount of negative PR around this situation for years and I can't imagine there's a huge amount of money to be made for it at this point. The Stones aren't giving up anything particularly valuable and they come out of the situation looking favorably.
Wow! I knew the first 90% of the story, even the part about The Staple Singers, but I didn't know there was finally a happ ending to the story! Good on ya, Mick and Keith!
Fun fact: Allen Klein owned the rights to the Rolling Stones' Dead Flowers and allowed a cover of it to be used in the movie The Big Lebowski free of charge because he loved when the Dude yells, "I CAN'T STAND THE F*CKING EAGLES!"
@@ggallintedtalk You don’t understand what publishing is, yet you’re attempting to argue about it like a small child who thinks he knows better than the adults. Did you manufacture your own car? Does that mean you don’t own it?
@@TheStompboxer Are you daft? The Stones clearly plagiarized the song from another artist, if we’re calling a spade a spade then the song has been stolen since the beginning! So it’s right that Klein gets to not give any publishing rights to the actual artist but only to the stones .. you’re a moron that clearly didn’t even watch the video, jit.
@@ggallintedtalk I watched the video. I’d also bet good money my background is significantly more relevant than yours. You’re making that painfully obvious. The song wasn’t “plagiarized.” It was inspired by a single phrase in a public domain spiritual. The other lyrics or melody are not the same. The lyrics aren’t a factor in this case, anyway, so I’m not sure why it was mentioned in the video. Expertise isn’t a prerequisite to posting a video on RU-vid, it turns out. You don’t know what constitutes plagiarism, but that doesn’t stop you from asserting an idiotic opinion about it. Klein didn’t write the song. That’s probably why Jagger and Richards have the songwriters’ cut of the publishing (which they relinquished ONLY for their part of “Bittersweet Symphony”). The recording that was sampled is a separate matter. But you don’t understand the distinction. You’re just another loudmouth dumbfuck Dunning-Kruger poster child. Shut he fuck up yourself, Junior.
I know this video is old, but The Verve has always been one of my favorite Bands, and for the last 8 or so years, the Seattle Seahawks use this song when they run on the field, you can look it up, but it always made me smile eventhough I'm not a Football fan. But Urban Hymns Is one of the best Albums ever!!
It has to be said, the Stones didn't sue, it was Klein and ABKCO who own the publishing rights to all of the Stones' music up to 1970 to this very day. The Stones have zero control over their music prior to 1970. Klein was ruthless, too much hating on Mick and Keith. They couldn't have brought up the lawsuit if they wanted to. The Stones themselves never even promoted the 50th anniversary editions of Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed for this very reason.
@capacitance-rca1981 “The Last Time” was composed by Jagger/Richards. It’s not that hard to look this stuff up, if you can’t be bothered to read the thread you’re posting in.
@capacitance-rca1981 What about “Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra’s recording” is so difficult for you to grasp? That version had nothing to do with Jones as a composer OR a performer.
@capacitance-rca1981 I have no idea what you’re prattling on about, but you should learn the basic differences between composition, arrangement, and performance. The version of the song the Verve sampled had nothing to do with the Stones aside from the two who composed it. Brian Jones’s arrangement elements from a completely different arrangement and recording are irrelevant.
Heh - lots people do it. Think of it as a marketing technique ($ is watch time based) and a hook that provides literary subordination. You've been direct and communicative (perhaps aggressively by z measure of some), but I don't think that your comment merits rudeness. Maybe u will, after this, but i think a respectful response would clearly b more efficient from a utilitarianistic perspective. U could easily humiliate me, here, but I dont mind.
I'm a huge Stones fan. But Bitter Sweet Symphony does sound quite like The Last Time other than there is no bridge. But hells-bells, all kinds of rock songs sound like oall kinds of other rock songs. So what. A good song is a good song. Nevertheless, glad the Stones gave the rights and the money back (not that they noticed the dent in their checkbooks).
Great story, great outcome, thanks for your contribution to informing people like myself who wouldn’t know this otherwise, it really does increase our knowledge on important stuff like this in music and gives us a better understanding of the industry
Another great video, I loved this song as a kid. The strings make it man. Thanks for the content. The Verve got screwed! B.S. man. The stones should have signed over the rights much earlier. Its only right. You're the freaking rolling stones man, you're fine!
An amazing story. I spent the first 2/3 of this video asking if the title of the clip was backward lol, but then the moment reveals itself. I'm glad the stones did what they did.
Martin Glover, punk rock legend. Oh the irony with it being Killing Joke who were ripped off by Nirvana but who took the higher ground and said Come as you are is a good song so did not file a copyright infringement against Nirvana and Foos and Killing Joke have also taken to the stage together. That is how you handle a dispute.
No they did not rip it. A band does not have the rights to certain words such as the last time. That is a term that has been in existence for the whole human existence. It is like saying the beatles ripped off Help because other songs used the word.
If you sing the bittersweet melody to Louie Louie ( Kingsmen) some how it fits too this song was from the 50's , its a chord progression they played fast but when slowed down its the Oldham - Bittersweet version
I had no idea about the wonderful resolution of this. Also had no idea that they had actually licensed the Oldham sample. The details of all this were quite muddy back in the day when it was happening.
Or how SST, Greg Ginn's label screwed the Minutemen out of 100's of 1000's. Many years ago I played with George Hurley in a band and he would bitch about it from time to time.
@@TheChristafershawn If there is any truth to it one can't help but wonder as to why he and Mike Watt continued to work with SST for the next three Firehose albums and why Watt sold New Alliance Records to Ginn and is still friends with him up to this day?
When I first heard "Bittersweet Symphony", I said, "Sounds a lot like "The Last Time". Never heard all this trouble resulted. Klein was lower than shit. Paul was right, they should have signed with John Eastman. Klein graduated from my college, one of the few celebrities who did. The college went out of business, Klein is dead, and the Stones did the decent thing.
WOW. He got the song back. The Stones could have said "Screw him, We are The Stones." Their are better men by agreeing, "Yeah. We are The Stones, but that is one great record and he deserves the credit. Cheers mate."
In the Stones'song..... Where is the strings that were sampled? I have the Rolling Stones record and don't recall hearing the string part that was sampled.
I live in the Verve’s hometown, don’t know them but I’ve heard stories over the years. Recording with my first band with an ex member of The Tansads, they hated The Verve as they were “a bunch of students making noise” and they got big whereas the Tansads disappeared. Also my wife remembers Richard Ashcroft being about 18 and playing acoustic guitar on the front garden of a house in her village.
That just explains just about all the business side of Rock and Roll. Old traditionally blues song, guys from 1960 -1970 take written credit from it and managers steals copyright of that song.
Huge mad props👌 for mentioning "Youth" from "killing joke"!👍 I didn't know he produced the "verb" album? Can't wait to Hear that interview, you mentioned a few months back that you had on him?✌
So when do the Staple Singers get their cut? They, of course, would have signed a terrible deal with their publishers. Alan Klein was a mean and greedy man who liked to win. The Stones just restarted and became even greater. Ethical companies would have refused to use any ABKO intellectual property. Companies, however, rely upon unfair contract law to make their fortunes.
I hadn't heard that he had gotten the rights back. That is awesome, and was a really classy gesture from the Stones. I have been mad at them for over two decades over the way that Ashcroft was treated. It is nice to find out that they really had nothing to do with it, and made amends for the entire situation. Wow.
I have a suggestion for a future episode. The band is Atomship. Amazing band with only 1 album and a totally underrated drummer. Would love to see what you can find on them.
Like Keith Richards said, 'this is bunch of complicated lawyer sh--!'. I tell ya tho, I don't see any similarity to that orchestral melody that sampled 'Last Time' to the song 'Last Time', which happens to be one of my all-time favorite Stones tunes.
8:03 “signed over?” Meaning? Signed over to whom exactly? A very thoroughly produced explanation of a notorious musical squabble, despite missing details. Unfortunately with very little music in it.
All of rock, pop, soul, dance, trance, hip hop and blues etc borrow from each other. Present day honest musicians know this. Even the Rolling Stones said their composition, The Last Time was a revamp of the STAPLE SINGERS! It’s greedy, non musical and dishonest managers including the lawyers who are at fault here. Alan Klein was a most hateful figure in this saga. The actual composer of that string based, haunting intro riff didn’t get a single royalty. Well done to both Mick and Keith for being kind to RICHARD ASHCROFT👏👍. Managers and lawyers please get less greedy ,less dishonest and behave honourably! Just look at all the samples from Classical Music that plebs will not know about.
I'm glad this had a happy ending because Ashcroft got skanked so hard by KLEIN, et al. Now, if we can just get the Staple singers and every other Black artist The Stones, Beatles, Zep etc ripped off-some money too-, that would be lovely, unfortunately there are ALWAYS too many Klein's in the mix.
Seems like the Rolling Stones should have split the royalties between Ashcroft and anyone from the Staples Singers who is just as deserving if not more.
Its not that simple, They didn't own the copyright to their early stuff, which the song the orchestral cover was based on. The shitty executive, who started all this slimy shit in the first place, had all the power to say who gets what, and he wanted all the money that a huge hit like BSS could make. The stone had no say on who could get what and if they tried to give back to the verve earlier on, that executive could have sued them I am sure. Never forget scum bags like him and why the big music industry is a sham.
I saw Verve live in Glastonbury in 2008 ... probably it was the most boring concert I have ever assisted to. The camera was 99% of the time on the singer's face. I don't remember seeing any other member of the band.
Wow!!! Thank you Thank you Thank you For taking the time to explain the convoluted situation behind the Verve’s song and why The Rolling Stones were connected to this controversy From my takeaway, it sounds like the Verve may have gotten some compensation for composing one of the greatest songs of the time
Wow, just imagine if this didn't happen then we might have still had the Verve! Makes you wonder if all that bs and frustration eventually ended up breaking the band up because as I recall Bittersweet was there biggest hit, if they got what was owed to them it might have gave them the extra drive to keep going
There is a whole other dimension to The Last Time that this video doesn't even mention. The Stones' didn't so much write that song. It was more a rearrangement of a song by the Staples Singers called "This may be the Last Time", which actually is a traditional gospel song. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-j1jGF-6bFpI.html Moreover, what arguably gave the Stones' song the most distinction was the guitar riff. It is the only thing the Verve took from the song. I think Jagger and Richard had the idea of a counter point guitar riff over the chords. But the riff itself was created and played by Brian Jones, who didn't get a song writing credit for it. I'm not against people owning their own songs. But it is my observation that most of the best songs are more just rearrangements of other good songs.
Hey I love your videos man! I've learned a lot from you since I subscribed a month or 2 ago. How you dig up these fascinating stories is beyond me. Keep it up!
The Andrew Oldham Ochestra slowed down the original ! Then produced the iconic strings arrangement ! This was recorded in 1965 after The Stones Last Time !
