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Theory 306 - Essential Elements of TCG Design - Card economy 

tcgAcademia
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Part 5 of a series on essential elements of TCG design. Have you ever wanted to design your own tcg? You're far from alone, and this series will go into the elements needed to make this game genre function. This video examines card economy - which is how players are able to acquire new cards during gameplay, and leverage them for advantage within the game.
Work has been absolutely brutal lately. Coming up I have another Wixoss video, and sometime perhaps a month from now will be a Duel Masters how to play and evaluation. As for this essential elements series, there's maybe another 1-2 videos to tie everything up, and then it'll be properly finished.

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17 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 62   
@DekuLord
@DekuLord 2 года назад
I want to shout out DBS for having an interesting take on how Rules Based Interaction intersects with Card Advantage. Since every "creature" card is also a boost spell, and combat against a player is against a deck identity card with its own power, every direct attack becomes a question of spending cards from hand to lose card advantage and prevent damage or to draw cards form life to gain card advantage, but move closer to losing the game.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
Sounds a bit like Luck & Logic.... Although from what I hear DBS is actually decently put together. Having pitch options like that is really useful - it means games with high-velocity card economies won't run out of ways to spend their cards, and it helps standardize interactions, making for less chaos when players start throwing their cards back and forth. Vanguard does something similar, and not coincidentally Vanguard draws a ton of cards each turn.
@vtuberkomissar4413
@vtuberkomissar4413 2 года назад
Love all the Risu art you used in this series of videos!!
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
Risu is best squirrel.
@thebigcheese1905
@thebigcheese1905 2 года назад
I would love to see a more in-depth discussion on how card and resource economy interact and shape the player experience of a game. But for a short overview, I enjoyed the video. Keep it up!
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
It gets tricky, because at a certain point all these elements start to blend together into a 'game', rather than a distinct element. Like how card economies can set the overall pacing of a game, but so do resource systems, the age of the game, power-creep, choice of mechanics... This is definitely a topic I'll revisit at some point in the future, but that's probably a while out, and it'll likely be a much more specific discussion. Glad you enjoyed this one for what it was!
@byeguyssry
@byeguyssry 10 месяцев назад
Having fewer cards like in MTG does have the benefit, though, of making each individual card feel like they matter. For example, in a game where draw is practically free, but other resources are more limited, if you use two cards that together cost 2 Mana to destroy a 3 Mana card, that could be considered a good trade, whereas that would almost certainly feel bad in MTG to have to waste a card, even if you're saving on Mana.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 10 месяцев назад
Even in mtg, though, you still have low cost cards that you'll trade off pretty easily, and higher cost cards you want to protect a lot more. I lean to the side of having more cards is better than fewer, even if their impact is a bit less. Although I can see the appeal of a MTG-ish low-card system. You spend a lot of effort building your deck and trading for each card in it, you don't want to just rip though as many of them as you can each game, you do want to savour things a bit. It also makes the game a lot less intimidating to try and teach to new players!
@okeytay4
@okeytay4 8 месяцев назад
I'm really curious to learn more about how the fixed card vs fixed hand games feel when playing. I hope you do a video on this at some point in the future.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 8 месяцев назад
It does make for a different tempo. Definitely a good idea for a video at some point!
@tiozuradasexatas6754
@tiozuradasexatas6754 Год назад
Monster Collection TCG and Digital Monster Card Game (1999) have a interesting approach to draw up, where you discard cards you don't want in your hand before drawing up to hand size.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia Год назад
That is an interesting variant! Monster Collection is a game I've heard of and I want to try out eventually. I'm curious how it's grid field worked out - it seems really interesting.
@thebigcheese1905
@thebigcheese1905 2 года назад
Another interesting case for card economy are games where you can always choose to draw cards as a game action, at some cost. The extra agency to be able to spend another resource to draw out of a bad hand can really help mitigate the luck of the draw. Some examples: I've never played it, but Luck and Logic allowed players to spend their resources to draw cards, in addition to their normal draw. In Netrunner, the runner player is never forced to draw for turn and both players can spend one or more of their actions to draw a card. Cards that draw more cards are often still more efficient than the basic action, but it's nice to always have the option to draw out of a bad situation.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
Netrunner definitely implements this a lot better than L&L, but it's definitely a nice fall back to minimize how much unlucky draws will hurt. I don't think it's a necessary inclusion for every game, but when the game is well set up for it, it can do a lot of good.
@douglasfalcon5391
@douglasfalcon5391 7 месяцев назад
There's a chilean TGC called "Mitos y Leyendas" where you draw 1 card at the end of your turn (you start the game with 8 tho)
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 7 месяцев назад
I could definitely see that throwing me off for the first few games! I've heard of Mitos y Leyendas, I need to check it out some time.
@shadenox8164
@shadenox8164 4 месяца назад
After your turn is an interesting change.
@zlothz
@zlothz 11 месяцев назад
Arguably, the better Draw Up variant is "Discard Any, Draw Up" (DADU), as used in Star Wars: Destiny. DADU further mitigates variance's impact; players can discard those currently unneeded to search for playable cards. DADU also mitigates the inequity that exists in exclusively Draw Up (ie: play more, draw more). Another variant, "Discard Any, Draw Discarded" (DADD), can combine with Fixed Draw: discard any number, then draw up to number discarded plus # (DADD+). From the lenses of fairness & player agency, I think games without a Discard-Draw (DD) mechanic become hard to defend. Variance will inherently result in unfair initial states that can directly lead to non-games, such as having a Land Flood or Land Drought Hand in MtG. Although MtG has mulligans, this Band-Aid ultimately still punishes players for bad luck. Similarly, without a DD mechanic, players have no inherent method to influence future states due to variance. After an MtG mulligan, it's still possible for subsequent draws to Flood or Drought. Otherwise, one must use draw or search effects to mitigate variance, which is impossible if variance is preventing the individual from playing cards. Of course, variance is inherent & "bricking" will always be possible. However, enabling player control over variance makes for a superior experience (even if they still have bad luck in the end). Card draw is simply a means to play the game, which centers around effects & combat, and bad luck should not gate-keep players from interacting with those components. The listed cases regarding MtG are actually why I don't play anymore.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 11 месяцев назад
There's definitely plenty of variations in the draw up, although I've seen straight draw up work well enough in Keyforge and Flesh and Blood. (To your point they both have mechanics to let players get cards out of their hand fairly easily - getting stuck with a hand of unplayable cards is a risk of draw up.) I do think it's possible to iron out a lot of variance with more traditional draw engines, Wixoss is a big example.
@zanforian
@zanforian 6 месяцев назад
Eh, I don’t think it’s objectively better, more that you’re making a trade off. You might consider the downsides to be worth that trade off, but there are downsides. Variance can definitely make it unplayable, but if you reduce it too much and let players easily filter through large portions of their deck you can end up with decks that play exactly the same. You’d also need to account for this high draw and discard power in your game design, for example if you just imported the rule wholesale into mtg, essentially giving every card free cycling, you’d break much more than you’d fix. You wouldn’t get mana flooded, but combo decks would become especially consistent, and any graveyard based deck would instantly become supercharged. As a reflection of this, if you’re designing a new game, you’re locked out of that design space magic uses for balancing because of your very low variance and high draw power.
@0penthaughtz
@0penthaughtz 4 месяца назад
I am toying around with the idea, of letting a player at their end phase, discarding 1 card from their hand; in order to draw 1 card from their deck. Although they cannot use it until their next turn. This is of course in addition to a player drawing 1 card, at the beginning of their turn.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 4 месяца назад
Weiss Schwarz does something similar, except at the start of the turn - you can place 1 card from your hand into damage to draw 2. I think it's a fine mechanic, but I do like it more at the start of turn, when you're already reaching for your deck and thinking about card draw.
@t3rasu
@t3rasu 2 года назад
Will we get a Battle Spirits 101 anytime soon? As a long-time player, I'd love for an explanation of and thoughts on the Core system of Battle Spirits of someone who might not be as invested as myself.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
Definitely, it's a question of when, not if. I bought a few of the Gundam starters, and have made myself some translation sheets, so it should hopefully not be too far off. It's definitely a game I'm interested in trying!
@t3rasu
@t3rasu 2 года назад
@@tcgacademia Thanks man. I've definitely felt that Battle Spirits is quite underrated, or dare I say being slept on, in the western TCG sphere. It's great to hear that someone got interested in BS through the Gundam Collabs. There's actually an Evangelion Collab coming this December so if you're interested you could check that out in the future too.
@mistery8363
@mistery8363 3 месяца назад
this is also relevant to resource system, but the Bleach tcg had you make 2 decks, one regular and a resource deck. each turn you got to draw 3 cards, but you picked from which deck you drew them.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 3 месяца назад
That's an interesting way to do it. I can see it having some pros and cons, and I'm curious how well it worked out in a game that actually tried it.
@chunkin9799
@chunkin9799 2 года назад
Great video. Are there any videos that go over tcg concepts like neg plays, positive plays as they deal with card advantage etc?
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
I haven't really come across any. Most of my knowledge on the subject was picked up either at my LGS, or by watching higher level players (usually mtg) streaming their games or discussing deck techs. I'm sure some good summary videos are out there, I just haven't run into them.
@loganpressley8806
@loganpressley8806 2 года назад
I wouldn't say that Yugioh has a particularly aggressive combat system relative to the other games being compared. While you are reducing the opponent's life total and their resources on the board at the same time, often their is an inverse relationship between the impact on the opponent's life total and the quality of the game pieces removed from the board in the attack.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
I'll admit my yugioh knowledge may be a bit out of date, but in yugioh there's generally few reasons to not attack when you can attack. In mtg you're removing one of your potential blockers by attacking, and in Wixoss and L&L you're giving the opponent resources. Card effects like mirror force and similar can create some incentives to leave something back, but that's more an adjustment based on card effects rather than game rules.
@jmurray1110
@jmurray1110 5 месяцев назад
Well unless you are forgetting about mirror force There are hand traps that can cause the battle step to turn on you or graveyard effects Like alghoul who protects monsters from being destroyed and summons itself in defence position Plus if going second there’s always evenly matched where if you give up your battle phase you can banish all but 1 monster you opponent controls
@jmurray1110
@jmurray1110 5 месяцев назад
1 card not monster my mistake
@NeyPenido
@NeyPenido 2 года назад
After playing Magic for a few years and comparing tô Wixoss which i have tryed because of your vídeos, now i feel like Magic land system is really boring and to me is bad, because u can flood or get no mana for ur plays, which Just makes you waste time, what doesnt lead to Fun or actually playing the game.Wixoss format or now , Build Divide in which cards can be mana as well looks more interesting tô me
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
I still play and have fun with magic, but it's definitely kind of painful going back to magic after playing other games with better resource systems.
@AutisticBoardGamer
@AutisticBoardGamer Год назад
The Spoils had a rules effect that let you pay resources to draw cards.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia Год назад
Yeah, a few different games have had a similar mechanic. I'm not fully sold on it - I didn't mind it in Netrunner, but I found it overly intrusive in Luck and Logic. How was it as a mechanic in the Spoils?
@_c40
@_c40 Год назад
How can i know if my tcg is good
@jeremymore451
@jeremymore451 2 года назад
Have you done any videos on Universal Fighting System and how that games mechanics leave it fairly unique?
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
None so far - UFS is a game I do want to try because its system feels fairly unique, but none of its sets seem to interest me, and I've got a backlog of JP tcgs still on my shelf. Someday!
@jeremymore451
@jeremymore451 2 года назад
@@tcgacademia I can respect that. The games honestly my favorite TCG system-wise. Even though the mess it is can be comparable to Yugioh at times 🤣
@jeremymore451
@jeremymore451 2 года назад
@@tcgacademia also I'm looking around, do you have a discord or other social outlet for fans and others who want to interact?
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
@@jeremymore451 No discord at the moment - it's an idea that's been floating around, but is on the back-burner for now. I tend to be really inactive on any kind of chat/social platform, and I don't want to create a discord, then basically say 'chat amongst yourselves' and ignore it.
@jeremymore451
@jeremymore451 2 года назад
@@tcgacademia ah, I gotcha. It'd be better to have more of a following first! I just enjoy chatting about card games and their mechanics, this channel spoke directly to me as far as that goes, and has left me wanting even more now!
@goncaloferreira6429
@goncaloferreira6429 2 года назад
combo of image at 3:07 and what you say here lost me. How is the yugioh extra deck even related with too many decisions in you opening hand? this topic, as seen in the video, connects to many thers. speed of the game is an intersting one. consider mtg vs pokemon or yugioh. as said, the hand size is the same and they all have the standard 1 draw per turn but the amount of thing you do is incomparably higher in the last two games.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
Yugioh extra deck is essentially an extra 15 cards in your opening hand, but because of their summoning conditions, they add a lot fewer decision points for inexperienced players to get stuck on. And yeah, card economies connect to pretty much everything in card games in some way. As for yugioh, it's a really fascinating game. It's not one of my favourites to actually play, but the design of the game is so weird I can't help but keep a eye on it. In this case, I think it's a combination of the resource system (which is the other main contributor to game pacing), and the fact that it has more tutor effects than mtg to pull out more combo pieces. There's also the extra deck, which acts like an extra 15 cards in the opening hand. Although it's still mostly resources, or the lack of a real resource system in this case.
@goncaloferreira6429
@goncaloferreira6429 2 года назад
@@tcgacademia if we are considering the experience of players or the lack of it we are in quite a different talk. also, if considering that the extra deck makes yugioh have up to a 20 card opening hand we cannot put it on the same bag as mtg that actually has a resource system that dictates the pace of the game. similarly, dispite not having an extra deck, pokemon often allows you to play with 2 hands of 7 per turn. i have a negative stance of yugioh and its chaotic aproach to design.
@Mango-cw4tm
@Mango-cw4tm Год назад
0:56 one of these cards is not like the rest Can anyone guess what is? It's Bill if you couldn't figure it out. While the other 2 are design mistakes Bill is not super op it's a pretty good card but nothing format defining, not even comparable to the other cards shown in the each games context. Bill wasn't even the best draw card when it came out, if any card should have been on there from Pokémon it should have been Professor Oak.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia Год назад
Bill and Professor Oak in Pokemon are kind of funny. The game could have easily said 'no this is broken' and backed away from that level of efficient card draw, but they just went 'nah, we can work with this' and somehow carried on with their game. To my knowledge they still try to avoid printing anything quite on the level of Bill and Oak, but they're still printing cards that are very close (like Bill being shifted to a supporter).
@Renigade68
@Renigade68 Год назад
@@tcgacademia Bill is in a very weird spot, it's problematical as a non-supporter, but only barely, so as a supporter it sees 0 plays, Pokemon has supporters that draw 3 cards with no down sides and those pretty much never see play, so Bill as a supporter drawing 2 is just a meme tbh.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia Год назад
@@Renigade68 That's really interesting - I've not really kept up with pokemon much at all, so I'm not sure exactly what impact supporters have had on how the game plays, but I did find it interesting that Bill was functionally errata's to be a once-per-turn effect. I really do just need to dive back into pokemon one of these days, just to see how it plays now.
@Renigade68
@Renigade68 Год назад
@@tcgacademia Yugioh and Pokemon essentially ended up with the exact same conundrum, how do you balance spells/trainers when you have no resource system to naturally do that for you? And the two games arrived at very different answers, Yugioh answered the question by stacking on a bunch of restrictions to any spell with a halfway decent effect, hard once per turns, no special summons the same turn you use it, no attacking the same turn you use it, no adding from deck to hand via a search effect the same turn you use it, and the list goes on, Pokemon took a much simpler, and I'd argue better, approach, they made a hard divide between regular trainers and "supporters", regular trainer effects are always rather tame, but you can use as many of them per turn as you want, and they usually don't come with downsides, Supporter card effects also tend not to come with downsides but are still much much stronger than regular trainer cards, this is balanced by a simple rule of a hard once per turn on the entire Supporter class of cards, so if you use Bill to draw 2, for example, then you can no longer use Oak to discard your hand and draw 7 in that same turn, which is why Bill is an unfortunate case, he's too strong to be a regular trainer, but not nearly strong enough to be a supporter.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia Год назад
@@Renigade68 What's kind of interesting is that yugioh's manga appears to have tried playing around with a similar restriction in the battle city arc - only 1 spell and 1 trap card could be placed on the field each turn. It's especially noticeable in the (manga) duel against Arcana. He and Yugi both spend several turns setting 2 cards face down and passing. Obviously the rule never made it into the actual tcg, but I think it would have definitely been easier to balance spells and traps if some variant of the rule made it in. But yugioh's solution to everything in the game has always been to just add more text to the cards.
@vizjereigaucho6469
@vizjereigaucho6469 2 года назад
ABC
@Yinyanyeow
@Yinyanyeow 2 года назад
Games that null hand advantage is kind of a rarity.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
About the closest I've seen recently is flesh and blood, but card advantage is still super important there - it just takes a different form than usual. It's more of a micro-level turn by turn management, rather than a macro-level management over the course of the whole game. I think it's basically inevitable that any game built around cards will have some kind of card economy, and where there's a card economy, players can get card advantage.
@thebigcheese1905
@thebigcheese1905 2 года назад
@@tcgacademia In FaB you could also say that long term card advantage is focused around the deck instead of the hand. Your choices on which cards to pitch vs play or defend with as well as the option to slow your own draws can allow you to have more cards of better quality in the late game, when your opponent is running on fumes.
@tcgacademia
@tcgacademia 2 года назад
@@thebigcheese1905 Good point! My exposure to FaB has only been blitz format so far, which doesn't get to the recycling part of the game as often as CC, but yeah, a lot of FaB card advantage is centered around preserving resources in your deck, rather than in the hand. Although hand advantage is still important, with mechanics like the arsenal and certain items allowing you to carry an efficient turn as an advantage into later turns.
@revimfadli4666
@revimfadli4666 2 года назад
Dominion seems to rectify it by making you discard any unused hand card, and filling back to 5. Although in its place it has cycling rate advantage instead
@revimfadli4666
@revimfadli4666 2 года назад
Mottainai does nullify your card advantage in 2 ways: 1) at start of your turn, you discard down to your hand limit 2) whenever you draw cards for any reason, you put them facedown in a "waiting area", which you only add to your hand after you finish your turn Any action you do can also be taken by your opponents(or substituted with a card draw) during their turn, so randomly drawn advantages are mitigated, and you must find ways to squeeze advantage while benefiting your opponents as little as possible
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