That little part of his face that's stretched out should be where the model is trying to attach to the bones for moving his mouth. Lothric speaks in a cutscene, so the model has bones for mouth movement, but this skeleton doesn't have them, which could imply it's from quite far back in development, or would have used a different version of Lothric's model.
@@emmanuelecontrerasdongo3997 I think there're also how animation would resolve, how the models would clip when out of sync, how Lothric would have to align with his brother's body for the animation to play smoothly. In the end it's just a hassle and not worth spending resource on, and seeing how the Twin Princes is already infamously hard even with 1 attack resolve at a time, imagine how horrifying they would be if you have to dodge Lorian's slashes and watch out for Lothric's Soul Spear at the same time. I think they made a right decision for this one lol.
@@peterwilliams3190 It's one model but with 'other' Lothric's hitbox active. The animation is almost in sync so they can just hide the other lothric model and keep just its hitbox and its animation.
'Mark my words, Ashen one, you remain amongst the accursed' is my favorite line in the series. Perfectly mirrors the theme of DS1 and DS3 and how regardless of what you do, the world won't be a better place.
"Lorian, the older and larger brother" is just the funniest thing to me, I know it makes sense in context but imagine if we referred to our irl siblings by their comparative sizes
I mean, my brother is also both the older and larger brother, and it makes sense for me to refer to him as such, because I'm 1,57m (5'2)'' and he's 2m (6'5")...
I've gotten a lot of comments from people who haven't played every game in the series but still watch the different videos, so I figured I should specify a physical characteristic to make it obvious which one was which for people who didn't already know.
Usually from books I've read they describe brothers and sisters in that regard, one being the younger "bolder" and another small and scrawny etc but we never really describe each other in person like that, mainly because we would feel like we are insulting each other
@@theonionsystem7779 I think in the case of books, it's to help us visualize the character. But such things usually aren't necessary in person, because we can see the differences for ourselves.
That's basically how he is canonically. He's definitely shorter, but when you pay attention, he's way closer to Lorian's height than you might first expect. Definitely more than I first noticed fighting them.
@@mastermarkus5307 now that i look, yea his features are fucking long he does have a considerably smaller frame compared to his brother though so he's lanky but not as wide
@@OssaLuctus His arms and hands are especially long and that creeped me out the most. Especially since he has a pretty normal face; his body is just weird. Maybe it's the dragon experimenting stuff his dad did.
I think the problem is that they would start to have severe bugs I mean we see it on some single mobs Another thing is that in this case lorian is dependant on lothric and making him seperate would mean that we can knock him off or kill him before the second phase
It actually worked with the two bosses in dark souls, one at anor londo. I've been scratching my head on why they can't seem to make it work in the newer ones.
Probably removed it, given they wanted a two phase fight, and to make that feature work they'd have to buff up his health bar by ALOT since he usually dies way before being able to heal his homie anyways, and it'd be pretty taxing on the player at that point in the game (tho it is an end game boss, so maybe it was more for lore, cuz it'd be kinda weird if he had a bigger health bar then his larger and armored up friend)
The animations of Lothric crawling make me me think maybe at one point when they were separate NPCs there would have been possible to knock him off Lorian’s back. Either as part of the fight or an Easter egg if the player did XYZ
It’s actually really interesting as we come up to the release of elden ring that they tried many times to make rideable npcs and finally succeeded with their newest game To me it’s obvious that from really strives to innovate their games learning from past experiences and I can’t wait for elden ring to give me that sweet mountable goodness
its only after seeing all this recent mount stuff that come up and seeing Elden Ring that makes even more sense why they give us a horse. they get to show off a separate mountable NPC at all times! unless of course its actually part of the player model at all times and the horse part is just hidden away. we shall see once people start cracking that bad boy open to sift through the content.
I actually prefer the way they did it, with him on his back. I just like the visual of it, of the older brother carrying his disabled brother. It’s kinda sweet in a way.
Lorian and Lothric are incredibly underrated by the entire community and it's a shame. Such a cool boss, their lore, their fight and their ost are absolutely awesome
Zullie on a massive quest to find an actual double character /double npc. This is the most promising one so far, but is Zullie satisfied with the results? Stay tuned.
I have to admit that the Souls fanbase are one of the most dedicated fans that i've ever seen. They keep searching for every detail in the game... That's truly impressive
Zullie finding all the "rider" type creations has been a trip. Just started DS1, actually, cuz of the great content here. Just wish I could've gotten PTDE instead of the remaster.
Seems like they've always been using weird roundabout ways of making interacting npcs work, and because sometimes the solution is to make 1 npc they end up creating new problems that need roundabout solutions. I'm guessing from what we've seen in Elden Ring they've went the mile of having their engineers code something specifically for handling two npcs that should be sync'ing animations/behavior at certain points. And no it's probably something completely separate from throws.
We'll have to see once its out in pc to see if they're doing it properly yet. Still remember that prospect how theres gonna be million of npc below elden ring map lol
It's a pretty smart way of doing it. Getting two character models to interact just for animation purposes is hard enough, then trying to put one on top of the other and have them move together without the rigs completely clipping and exploding is near impossible. Making them one NPC/rig while adding a second hit box is pretty genius.
I think it would’ve been cool (but freaky) if once you killed Lorian, Lothric goes berserk and starts fighting you Orphan of Kos style but on all fours like some sorta rabid monster.
If Lothric had the speed of Orphan of Kos, I wonder how many players would shit themselves trying to handle his moves, lol. I love that DS3 has faster combat akin to Bloodborne, but there some bosses that I think are almost too fast for the game. Sister Friede being the main one with fighting a lot like Lady Maria.
@@lethalethan07 Oceiros wasn't bad for me. He took me just 2 attempts. He's got moves similar to Vordt, Ludwig, and some other Soulsborne bosses that I'd fought before I got to him. The crystal breath is annoying, but he really wasn't too bad; definitely not too fast.
it's really hard to make two seperate character models interact without it looking goofy or running into a toooon of cliping issues esspecially in something like a soulsbornering video game with a lot of fast movements and overlaping animation systems. this was likely done to make the fight look less goofy at what probably was a pretty tight deadline by the end of production
It's notoriously difficult to make it look like two models are _actually_ interacting in a believable way and the idea of getting them to do that properly in-engine on the fly as two npcs acting as essentially one npc is kind of... dumb, honestly, so I imagine someone at From was eventually just like "Why are we even trying to do this with two NPCs at all? Why not just give one NPC two separate hit boxes that relate to two separate health bars??" And thus they did that.
Probably marking a spot that negates any fall damage and it either sometimes doesn’t work or the person lands in the wrong spot. I’ve seen a couple instances in the Ringed City DLC where that first fall led to deaths cause they landed away from the circle they were meant to land ln
Animating him to climb to his elder brother's back and stay there while also staying on accurately while the other one moves? I get the enormous challenge to the point of impossibility.
"Lothric. I can't concentrate on fighting with your sword hitting my back. Put it in the scabbard." "Sorry dear brother, i'll put it away..." "Good... oh, now there's some sticky liquid dripping under my backplate. Did you drop your estus again Lothric?" "Yes, i'm sorry again... the Estus... some dropped from the flask."
You know, early back in 2016 when the game released a lot of people called these two "The Incest Twins" I guess Lothric is localized in the ancient realm of Alabama.
There are plenty of much more high-class examples of incest; see most royalty through most of human history. Though it was usually of the "pure bloodline" type than the " _REALLY_ take care of your brother" type.
I'm always amazed by how cool the FromSoft cut content or just unused stuff is, makes me wonder on what was their purpose and what was the game like in early development. I really appreciate all the digging you do to show us these little treasures.
Ahh, this goes some way to explain why you can land a free-aim headshot on Lothric from the front, but it always registers the damage to Lorian. It's the same model and the only valid hitbox for Lothric is in the back despite where his "part" of the model displays.
I guess this is what they made before they realized having one character riding another wasn't feasible at the time. Damn these insights are so cool. Thanks Zullie!
From an animation perspective it makes perfect sense. It's much easier to animate on single object than it is on two separate objects. Mesh overlap, objects snapping into place for combined animations, etc. It would not be fun to work out for sure.
My guess was that originally players could blow Lothric off of Lorian if they hit him hard enough but FromSoft changed their minds, probably because Lothric seemed defenseless on his own and Lorian would lose his stage two capabilities.
Hey Zullie, it looks like your channel has really blown up recently, is that the case? You're the only channel I have notifications turned on for and even when I look immediately you have hundreds of comments and several k views. Keep up the good work
Yep, it has. It's good that the algorithm seems to be suggesting Zullie's work even though the videos are short. I'm sure each one requires a ton of work though to put in the research as well as the editing. It's impressive how frequent they are!
As a game dev student, I must thank you for your work, it's helping me a lot to understand how big companies like From Software build their games and I learned a lot of tricks watching your videos so thank you!
Also, during the first phase, Lothric's model is hidden underground but since it's still bound to Lorian, you can see Lothric's feet clipping through the floor during the first cut scene. Lance McDonald has a vid on this funny event: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6qfB8DWygyo.html
One thing I've been a bit curious about, how does Sen's fortress work when it comes to the rolling boulders? How does it determine when to rotate paths?
@@yuturtuyieie5544 It's seemed to me that there's a specific spot that triggers that rotation when the player moves through it. Just from listening to the sound cues. It'd be easier to accept if there was a visible pressure plate that could be avoided, like with the dart traps.
This is kind of the penultimate example of the "from soft has been struggling to create mounted NPC's" arc zullie has been focusing on. They actually made a mounted npc, but rather than synch the animations, they just made him invisible and then created a model with an illusory clone that wouldn't look so strange I wonder how much content this inspired. I'm super hype to see zullie data mine through elden ring now
I like this contrast of these at times cursed animations and the calm/ upbeat BGM. Makes this fight kinda weird, knowing that you try to attack Lothric himself, but actually you are beating up an invisible copy.
Making two NPCs interact in animation is a MAJOR pain in the a$$. Trust me. Even NPC interacting with static object is a large can of worms. Added me a couple of grey hairs.
This is so awesome; I've always wondered what that extra hidden NPC was doing there. I'd usually come across it when scrolling through the game's debug menu.
lothric and lorian were the only part of the soulsborne games that i actually found legitimately creepy for whatever reason and lemme tell you seeing unused lothric shamble about with polygon monstrosities flying out of his hood is NOT helping
the difference between me and my brother is that i got your videos recommendet randomly and now can appriciate the progress they make with stuff like this, while he would not even come close to even think about skeletons ect xD(just like me before). thank you for that
