This D&D Youtuber Said What We're All Thinking 

I feel like the "everything is dnd" mindset is one of the biggest rocks to crush on the way to making any other game ever have a chance at wide spread success

The difference is, Blades in the Dark didn't send the Pinkertons after someone...

Praising D&D for its RP rules is like praising a cookbook for helping you assemble your new table. You might like your new table. You can enjoy your table with friends. But the cookbook had nothing to do with helping you get there.

I've fully abandoned WoTC projects and D&D as a whole. They've shown and proven to be an untrustworthy and awful company, and there's other games to play.

Thing with homebrew that people don't realize is that unless you're planning on publishing your stuff, your characters only need to be balanced with one another so that no one feels left behind or feels useless in a fight or game. Even if they are stronger than their level would indicate just treat them as higher level for the purpose of monsters and challenges. The only place that could be a problem is if you use established Adventure paths and even then just award less Xp until the adventure catches up to the subjective player level. That's it. There's no auditor that's gonna take your DM licence away.

I don't have an issue with people recommending systems, as long as they're not obnoxious about it. There is such a variety of systems around that have strengths and weaknesses, and D&D is such a default historically that people often go to immense effort trying to get it to do things it isn't particularly good at, whereas a switch to Call of Cthulhu, Cipher System, FATE, World of Darkness, Shadow run, etc might already do what you're trying very well, and with less effort than forcing D&D out of its own comfort zone. My rule of thumb is: when planning a campaign, pick the rule system that best supports the type of narrative you're telling. If the tone changes for a single adventure, however, don't ask your players (or yourself) to learn a whole new system for a few sessions. Adapt what you're already using.

The original video started strong for me, but it became more and more obvious it comes from a place of having 5E as their sole solid perspective. And watching the reaction video and hearing "in some way, the entire tabletop scene didn't really kick off until D&D 5th Edition" just seals it as a 5er's perspective. He justifies it by using a mountain allegory, where trying a new TTRPG "Mountain" would require you to step off the D&D mountain and lose all your efforts. But that's ridiculous! "Try Pathfinder/DCC/Call of Cthulhu/other" does not mean "swear off D&D"! The skills developed with D&D make climbing each subsequent "Mountain" easier, and when you return to your first D&D cliffside, you'll find you're able to get higher and faster on it than before, so to speak! It's like being in Plato's Cave allegory, and hearing someone using solid logic and making decent observations... but that someone is still discussing shadows in the cave.

I'm gonna push back on the social RP thing. The fact is, you can RP in literally any system no matter how crunchy it is. No matter the system, folks can sit at a table and talk things out and play and what not. The difference between 5e and PF2 in this capacity isn't folks' ability to RP and have a 'less combat focused' experience - that is universal. The big difference here is that if you, as DM, try to set up a social scene, you have no real guidance beyond 'vibes' in 5e, while PF2 actually has a reasonable scaffold to work with and a means to generate progression a DM can track that is at least superficially similar to games like PbtA while being its own beast. You can say the rules are buried, sure, but they at least exist and if you're a newcomer or a GM, that's hella useful. The idea that you 'have' to be permissive to 5e not providing any design space as a form of 'open air creativity' is basically, well, corporate apologism, y'know?

I'd argue that 5 completely new players to TTRPG's shouldn't start with 5E. The game is built with over 80% of the onus to learn the game on the one person who decides to DM. Where many other game systems, PF2e included, spread that more evenly between DM and players. 5E is great for bringing a new player/s into an already established game or a new one run by a knowledgeable DM and honestly this was part of why it spread so fast. A player could just jump in with a simple concept and the DM can lead them through their first few sessions.

When all this conversation about D&D popularity ups and downs with 3rd, 4th and 5th edition comes, I allways se people missing two important factors (and Pathfinder 1e is none of them), and I've only seen Two RU-vidrs tackle on it: Matt Covile and Ronald the Rules Lawyer. Which are: Board Games and World of Warcraft. Stick with me: back in 2003 I moved to a bigger town the one where I was born and I finally got to meet other people that played TTRPGs and not only people that I, myself introduced to. I was very excited to play with them and see what playstyle they had, or just be a player instead of a GM. The most popular game at that time was certainly D&D 3rd edition. When they finally invited me to play after a long time of begging, their group had fallen apart because all the 4 players were spending their weekends playing some MMORPG. I though I was the only one who has gone through that experience, but a video made some years ago, Matt Covile tackled the matter on how World of Warcraft, released in 2003 directly impacted the sales of TTRPGs, and we all know how they tried to make 4e similar to an MMORPG. WoW didn't get an oficial server in my country until 2011, but people played other games like Tibia, Ragnarok and Lineage nonetheless. And we didn't see a drop in WoW players at least until 2015. LIke Covile said, think about it: A MMORPG gives D&D players most of what they want, a colaborative experience of kiling monsters, exploring dungeons and leveling up with friends, without the need for a GM. Of course nothing compares to what sort of stories and infinite narretives a GM can provide, but it does the job pretty decently. Most GMs, myself included felt betrayed. The WoW thing has a bit of that "New Shining Toy" thing. MMORPGs have been around pretty much before WoW, but for the majority of players it was their first experience with MMOs, and even the first experience with INTERNET itself. Getting to play with people from diferent corners of the world was all new to us. Getting in the internet in the early 2000 was a way to escape reality, unlike today that people are logging off to do so. At the same time, something that I've seen only Ronald adrress is the Rise of Geek Culture and Board Games: in the 2010s we had not only the rise of geek culture, but a reinascance of board games. People were getting a bit tired of video games, and started to hang out with friends to play phisical games that had lots in common with their favorite video games. There are lots of board game caffess now (there are at least 14 near where I live in São Paulo) and more and more people were joining in for the party. TTRPGs and Board Games share a lot of simularity. 5e and Criritical Role appear just at the right time for the party. They are a Catalyst for that. D&D, Being Nerdy is cool. Being Nerdy with your friends and generating meme-fueled stories and injokes at your table. Just like board games were in a reinascance, the interest in D&D was as well. 5e and Crivital Role didn't "created" a new wave for TTRPGs, they just hoped on It with a good surfboard and made the best manouver possible. They're not the wave, they just surfed it very well.

Happy to have another comment section to comb through for feelings and advice. I know the video is a bit abrasive towards the Pathfinder community's passion, but I love 5E (even vanilla 5E) and just wanted to help remind people that doing so was okay! Play responsibly and however appeals to your group the best. For me, it'll be a page of D&D homebrew, a custom setting, and the official books I bought before the WotC scandals

I think the whole metaphor of ‘a TTRPG is a mountain’ is _why_ I hate that D&D is the primary entry point for new people into the hobby, and why for a long time I preferred board games as a hobby. A new gaming system doesn’t have to be this dreadful thing that looms before you that you have to overcome before you have fun, you can have fun in the learning. Or fun in the teaching to new players. Or you can just mess around with them without making these big commitments to them, this is a very cheap hobby. ETA: it feels like D&D _conditions_ people to see the game as a mountain and I wish a game that didn’t engender that mindset was the entry point instead

I've branched out into other systems 3 years ago, and I'm glad I did. For me, BG3 is the last hurrah of quality D&D content. I'm loving World of Darkness, Warhammer 40k tabletop, Mothership, and Cyberpunk red. I may even try Pathfinder some day! But... D&D is dead to me.

18:15 Soccer is a game that only needs 4 sticks and a ball. It's brilliant. If you remove the ball, its not soccer anymore. If you change 80% of the rules in pathfinder 2e and your friends want to play pathfinder 2e then they're not going to get what they want. The first rule you posted says as long as your group agrees, then you can make a change. I'm not sold on the idea that anything can be Dnd, like if a DM doesn't track hp then we're not playing dnd or pathfinder. We're playing movie mode.

The whole "if you change a systems, it's forever" comes from the fact that the younger fans/community bases are more likely to be absolutists than the older community is/was. The younger generations as a whole have a a lot of hang-ups over change and ambiguity so they're just more likely as a community to be up-in-arms defensive. It's frustrating, especially when you're one of those people who're always open to new ttrpg experiences. I've played so many in the last three years now, especially over Covid and it's been an absolute joy. It's a shame some people in the community have a hard time wrapping their heads around that. Just because D&D hasn't been "for me" since 4th ed and I've mainly done Pathfinder, doesn't mean I begrudge anyone for sticking with D&D or finding a third or even fourth option.

Leaving Hasbro/WotC products has blessed my table and group in ways I couldn't have imagined. It's crazy how much a passionate creator and community can make a good system when a corporation isn't involved.

4E was eventually balanced, but monster hp was borked on release. Made things a real slog

I think the one perspective that was missing is that 5e pushed out a lot of other systems with its popularity and made it difficult to find games in other systems in smaller cities. There are players that have never liked 5e and only played it because their friends and people in general only wanted to play 5e. I don't think that I'm ever going to feel bad about trying to get people to play Pathfinder when I had to play 5e or nothing at all for 10 years. It took the OGL debacle to generate enough interest for people to play Pathfinder in my city, and I welcome every once of hate for the 5e system, I've never liked it. It is the skyrim of tabletop games, its slop that needs to be modded to be good, and it puts all that pressure on the DM and the players. Like skyrim pushed the industry away from crunchy games, so did 5e. It's watered down for casuals, and the serious players are left with fewer people to play and less variety to play in

The current D&D community is odd to me. So many people seem so obsessed with it. I started with AD&D 2e, then moved on through 3e, 3.5, PF1 (we gave 4e a hard pass), 5e and PF2, so I know what I'm about, but the whole time I played, all the groups i was in explored different systems. Back in the day, it was Big Eyes Small Mouth, Cthulhu, Champions, Deadlands, and, I kid you not, the Buffy: The Vampire Slayer RPG (using the All Flesh Must be Eaten core mechanics). Now in present day, we fuck with Stars/Worlds/Cities Without Number, Fate, Blades in the Dark, City of Mist (using the PbtA system), and a host of others. The truth is that unless you've explored multiple systems with a critical eye and observed the empirical results, you're unlikely to be a well-rounded player or GM. The more games you play, the more you can judge them by their feel and results and the more you can cherry pick things you like and things you don't to achieve the optimal result for YOUR group. I'm not shitting on 5e; I'm running a 5e game right now. But it's a Frankenstein-ass fantasy in space in 2050 near-Earth game, using the Ultramodern5 REDUX book, as well as tips and tricks i've gathered over hundreds of games, poscasts, and books. TL;DR: You SHOULD encourage your players to try new games, but you don't have to do it by shitting on the game they already love. You shouldn't sell all your 5e books to buy every new Pathfinder book. Maybe get your group into the mood of new types of games by getting a 3rd party 5e book with a very different flavor. BUT as much as I don't think you should shit on 5e as a way to get people to try other things, I 100% support shitting on Hasbro and WoTC.

"World's Most Expensive Errata" -- D&D 2024.

The point about D&D being D&D even if you home brew 80% of it away, could have done with some nuance. What I agree with: The game is yours, do what you want with it. Most people play with a dedicated friend group, and only need to consider the particular needs of the people in that group. Customizing a system everyone feels comfortable with is a fine way to get to the goal of having the game you want. Don't let ANYONE stop you from enjoying your game in your way, especially not strangers on the internet. Homebrew IS the lifeblood of the hobby, and ultimately is how we get more games. What I disagree with: Everything everyone does with D&D is D&D. Just, no. The people doing all that homebrew work? THEY deserve the credit, ESPECIALLY if they're changing large portions of the game to get it to a place where they enjoy it. To be clear, this isn't an objection about "Well YOUR D&D isn't REAL D&D!" Your punk is absolutely punk enough, my gripe is not about being official or valid. My gripe is about crediting D&D with all the elbow grease and imagination that gets spent shoring up its shortcomings. Skyrim was mentioned, and is a perfect example of where this line of thinking gets us. Skyrim, for all its fame and accolades and fanfare, is a janky, nearly incomplete, mess of a game. Most of the faction storylines are incoherent drivel, and overall Skyrim gets overhyped because it's an Elder Scrolls game. The MODS for Skyrim? Master work. The effort and dedication of the fans make Skyrim playable, and more than that ENJOYABLE! I think the modding community gets a slightly better shake in terms of credit for being the solution, than D&D's community members do, but I also think that has everything to do with most of the custom content for 5e being private and distinct to people's home groups, rather than being sold or shared publicly. The magic is the MODDERS/PLAYERS, not the designers. They handed you an unfinished work, and asked you to pay full retail for it. So no, D&D is NOT a skeleton key that opens every doorway to imagination. It's a set of picks that fits into MANY locks, but almost always needs to be supplemented by bits of string, chewing gum, hair pins, and copious amounts of elbow grease that must be provided by the users. (And usually ONE user in particular, at each table.) As above, if this sounds like a good deal to you, keep rockin' with it and let no one get in your way. But the idea that this is just how it is? The "GREATEST roleplaying game in the world," a three core book investment of $50-60 a pop, only gets you PART way there? And that's like an acceptable standard that no one should question? Nah, miss me with that. It takes far less effort to stop and think about what your gaming group wants to emphasize, take an evening or two to shop around for a game that does that thing, pick up an indie game sub 150 pages for $10 on pdf, and TRY it, than it does to overhaul the greatest game the world has ever seen and create a 30+ page google doc of house rules from scratch. Just, the notion that players should EXPECT rules to impede them, and that the first, best solution is to just throw them away, is harmful to the hobby and the industry. The RIGHT rules wont get in your way, and more than that they'll HELP you get where you want more easily. But you'll never discover them if you only play the one system you're so comfortable with that you felt the need to change most of it.

Honestly because you kept saying "play D&D if you prefer..." you convinced me to check out Pathfinder 2e, Now my old play group is checking out not just Pathfinder, but also Panic! At The Dojo. Meanwhile my new play group has started a Lancer campaign, But also continue to play D&D. Do I prefer one group over the other? Absolutely not, I love all these systems, Even if Paizo and Hasbro are not on equal footing, Their games are equally valid to me.

I used to resent Pathfinder 2e because many of the players I've met seemed hellbent on proving how 2e is such a vastly superior system to 5e and that behavior was super obnoxious. People like you, nonat, helped me realize that not only those "2e is better" players don't speak for everyone who enjoys the game, let alone thr game itself, but also that pathfinder is a fun game. And it does some things straight up better than 5e. And that's ok. Both can co-exist. It just means more fun for everyone to have. So, I guess what I was trying to say is that I learned to get over the community.

I'm an adamant advocate for second class systems since WotC told they don't care about the Hungarian community, and no matter that the first 4 books are translated, the starter box came out already, all the papers were signed. They told the Hungarian distributor "nah... Too small market... We don't feel like it". I played many one shots and 3 years long campaigns in 5e. We even played after they f...d up our country. I knew that was the last time I payed for them anything because those who spent countless hours with the localization our my friends and they did not deserve to get screwed over like this. And than came thw ogl. Now if someone asks for ttrpgs in our store, I show them Pf2nd, Fantasy Age, Dragonbane, Call of Cthulhu, Savage world, Root, Fabula Ultima, vampire 5th, cyberpunk red, so basicly anything but dnd. Am I petty and a bad person. Yeah. But the "dnd mindset" is just not exist. It's ttrpg mindset. And the system is basicly indifferent. You can play drunk and stupid, or deep and meaningful in anything. So f them capitalist monsters! :D

Just a bit of a follow-up to the idea of when online TTRPG stuff kicked into high gear. I feel like the Lockdown REALLY kicked it up a notch. Especially so for VTTs getting a boost up.

I do have to correct you about something. The developers at wizards were always clear on the 2024 books NOT being a new edition. The one dnd banner was used by the developers to say that Dungeons and Dragons is done with editions. That the future 5th edition books would not be called 5th edition or 6th edition, it would still be 5th edition but it would just be called Dungeons and Dragons. Edit: also my favorite game is the genesys system because I like to focus more on social and other encounters and I like theater of the mind so exact distances and maps aren't something I like to worry about. So combat having vague distances of short, medium and long range is just better for me. I also like how the dice system makes all skill checks non-binary both combat and non-combat skills. Because combat is all skill checks too. But I also still play dnd and pathfinder as well. The best game is the ones we play with our friends.

That bit about D&D being the "go to" is super accurate. The same rule applies for anything Warhammer, League of Legends, Fortnite etc. You could go off and learn a smaller or niche RPG but the largest player base in your area is likely to be one of the big popular ones and if you want to get any games at all you either need to convince 3+ other people to learn a new system(and I find the newer average ttRPG player doesn't want to unless they are the forever DM) or just play what everyone else is playing. Also, as a tangent, despite loving Pathfinder 2e I find the general discourse/advice given that I've seen online tends to be build optimization(which I think in a ttRPG is the least important thing but I know folks get fun out of that stuff) and for the person who kinda just wants to play more structured pretend with friends(Which is the general vibe people get from watching live plays) and explore a shared world it's off putting seeing people dropping "excel spreadsheets" on a reddit post about someone saying "Look at this cool cleric I made!" and then watching them get torn apart and being told they are taking dumb feats/wasting DPR or will be a liability to their team. Even from the more rational content creators here on youtube I find PF's general vibe to be a bit more fixated on the rules and how they work than just the vibes. For us and our group we tapped out of 5e because it becane dull for US, while you have the freedom to RP any character you like there just wasn't the mechanical backing that we wanted to feel unique and different. Two champion fighters always feel the same where as in Pathfinder(and Starfinder) we felt SO liberated. And so we swapped over as our last 5e campaign just died from lack of investment and interest. Outside of that: Always be homebrewing You're playing a game fundamentally based in the imagination of you and your players so tell YOUR stories. Create your own worlds, weird and wonderful NPCs, make up monsters, hell change halflings to small dog people if you want. In 5e especially balance is nonsense and more an art than a science so change stuff on the fly if you're worried about the more mechanical side of things. You don't NEED permission, that's the beauty of ttRPGs I found that in 5e a ton of new players got caught up and stuck in to running modules or predefined adventures and it's kinda sad. There is fun there but also so much unused personal creative potential. Actually I find a lot of online PF2e stuff also tends to be folks running Adventure Paths(usually Kingmaker or Abomination Vaults) which I also wish wasn't the most common case.

Don't forget the layoffs and hiring Pinkertons (literally cartel behaviour)

You reacting with the nuance you do is why you're among my favorite creators. Nuance is just as valuable (and rare) as respect too.

"Not everyone has the time to play 2 campaigns"... And then there is me, i have a casual Dungeons of Drakkenheim 5e game, a seperate streamed Drakkenheim game, a Theros 5e game and a one ring campaign, i am a player in, but also run my own Abomination vaults PF2e game... each of those games are on a 2 week rotation (drakenheim casual and streamed alternate weeks, as do One ring and pf2e) plus starting this week, we are also trying out Delta Green, which may also turn into a campaign. Also have squeezed in one shots of deadlands and call of cthulhu, and have talks of one of our group running wrath and glory 40k rpg. Guess i am just super lucky!

This is not a video! (According to the latest video)

3:08 Why are recommendations a problem? HAVE you considered Call of Cthulu, or Pathfinder, or Blades in the Dark? Have you not considered that, if people "dogpile" the same answer, maybe there's something to it? Is it also "dogpiling" when people incessantly bring up D&D instead of referring generically to the TTRPG hobby?

Regarding sharing D&D with others, 3e era had the internet, but it was bulletin boards like ENWorld. That kind of format was most conducive to discussing rules (the common denominator for all players), rather than sharing the experience at the table.

See, I love Pf2e and I refuse to play D&D. But that is MY choice and NO ONE else should be affected by it. If my friends want to play d&d? Go for it! Thats the problem. Tribalism is bad in gaming of all kinds, and the TTRPG scene is REALLY bad about it. I recommend this: Try different things. Find what sticks and stick with it. You will find others who like it, and then you will have a BLAST with it. I plan to get Fabula Ultima at some point because it seems awesome. And once I do? Ill find others to try it with me.

I saw a women's shirt once that showed two dice landing on 20 and it said "Yeah, their natural"

Watched Blaines video, wish I hadn't. "Creative" is the nicest thing i can say about it.

I know you "say" that the advantage disadvantage system was very useful but as a long time game designer I always saw the GLARING flaw in it ie that it was TO simple. Ie lots of abilities come off as feeling very samy with no variety, similarly the simple fact that having advantage or disadvantage more than once on any roll doesn't do anything let alone the fact that one could have say several of one and one of the other and then you just have a normal roll makes the entire system fall apart as players have more situations where adv/disadv are applied. It always kinda surprised me how players where ok with this and it wasn't called out more, like if I have 4 things giving me advantage but 1 thing giving disadvantage it feels dumb that I wouldn't have advantage and just do a normal roll or vice versa. It waters down alot of tactical play to borderline pointless since one adv or disadv is no difference than stacking things that should help you or hurt your opponent and all if it can be completely negated by one boon or bane. I also don't find the fact that people need to delve into an abundancy of house rules to make the game more fun a good thing. Like don't get me wrong, I like that a game can be house ruled that's' fine, but in my 30+ years of gaming I've rarely seen a game that leans more on house rules than 5e and that just screams poor game design that so many people find them necessary to make the game fun.

When people who know Pathfinder very well listen to your videos, what you say reinforces their knowledge. Once in a while they may hear a new way of seeing something and they will appreciate that. For me, I listen sometimes to videos about the old AD&D modules simply because of the nostalgia -- it makes me feel good because playing in those modules created so many fond memories.

I'll add to what others are commenting: Your first system to learn will most often be the hardest to learn. Sometimes a background in videogames can help with concepts like HP, resources, loot, NPCs etc. But you still have to learn so much. And a whole group learning a new system is always challenging. With D&D you could argue for some literacy through shows, even in "mainstream" media. It's always easier to learn when at least one person knows a) how RPGs work and b) how the system works and c) can teach others. That's why it's great when you can test out a game at a convention, you watch others play (online or even better IRL to ask questions right then and there) or even play in a group looking to include someone new. 5e can often be the common denominator, in some of my group it's the system most can agree to play. Some like it more combat focused or crunchy, some like it more roleplay heavy. But we can play together, so it's fine. I'll just play my Thirsty Sword Lesbians game with my drama loving queer disasters xD

Okay, I went and watched the original video, and tbh I was a little disappointed. Well, more frustrated with the long pauses. So thank you for filling them! 3:45. Completely agree with your disagreement. 8:55. That wasn't my experience, but I can't speak to the trend as a whole, since (leaning in to your "5e gained popularity online" comment) I was mainly an in-person player at the time. But, I remember 5e being mostly embraced as a "WotC listened to the 4e criticism and are returning to their roots, plus I won't have to add 34+17 on the fly anymore". 14:10, I agree with your point entirely, that 5e has a lot of shortcomings for diehard fans of the extremes of the roleplay/rollplay spectrum, but, calling back to your frustration at the start of the video, I find it weird that pointing to a game that does a certain aspect "better" gets such a visceral backlash from people, and that some people are so against just trying something new. Maybe I'm just old. Or they've experienced people saying it badly so much that it's now the only way they hear it. But, I started my TTRPG experience with like 4 different systems at once, so I just can't relate to a "5e or die" mentality. Or a "2e or die" mentality, for that matter. 14:30, I was also surprised when he didn't go the direction I was expecting, tbh this is the first point in his video that I started getting a bit lost trying to follow. 27:00 I'm glad you're back to having fun with your content. =) 27:45 Completely agree here too. When I started out, it was much easier to roleplay when I didn't have to be "on" for 100% of the time, and could just sit back and roll dice sometimes to recharge my batteries. 33:54 that is mad haha! Glad you can laugh it off. 36:12 maybe in the same way that some 5e players now have a visceral reaction to the word "pathfinder", I have that same reaction to the word "handouts" in this context. Using it like it's a dirty word just feels like such an entitled point of view, because I only hear it in the voice of millionaire politicians arguing that people living under the breadline should have even more of their dignity stripped from them.

I legitimately despise D&D, I think it's poorly designed, doesn't really achieve what it wants to be (if it even knows) and that it's holding on way too hard to past conventions that doesn't really jive much with modern gamers but I don't hate people for playing it, cause they find it fun, so I just ignore it, except when I get a chance to laugh at WOTC, but that's cause Corporations are fun for a quick laugh, then I go back into my hobbit hole and play whatever random game I'm interested in at the time, simple as

The most basic TL;DR of EVERYTHING wrong with 4th Edition D&D: -Number Bloat -Class Homogenization -Loss of Multiclassing -Oversimplification -Rigid Design (hard to homebrew) If you've played 5th Edition, it carries over a lot of the structures, but walks back a number of things towards the 3.5 design.

@18:15 DnD is definable, it has an essence. It'd be like saying "I am swimming" when you are not in a body of water and then claiming "its still swimming if you want it to be, theres no set way to swim."

Would be sufficient to say, that much of "drama" and "hate" spilled out by the masses, ( not content creators themselves ), stems from an inherent fear, their chosen game of choice has been overshadowed by DnD? I don't want to say, overshadowed by corporate giantism, but that does kind of apply as well. What I mean is, like me I'm a D6 system/Mini Six system user and GM ... I do make "homebrew" games based off it, but not commercially. However, if i go to local game stores, or have some online presence where I am in contact with other RPG players, they look at you funny, and eighty percent of the time look at you funny when you say, you do not play DnD , or Pathfinder. DnD is synonymous with TTRPG , something that works for that game specifically yes, but it also is the "generic umbrella" term many use to describe fantasy TTRPG. But, who'd gonna play , or WANT to play my obscure system, of a dead company that was notorious for producing bad film and TV show RPGs , IF they even knew this much. When the big name system or systems, have not just the spotlights, but also modern day content and facilities readily available? Not many at all. So I think good bit of it all, is that "fear" for a lack of better way to express it , is My Game of choice X , is better for me and what I want to do, but no one is gonna know it, or care, or pay attention as long as the big brand , keeps waving it's flag around, regardless if it's positive or negative in aspect. I believe that's why we get, "Pathfinder is better than DnD" , or "This RPG is the new DnD killer". Not just for content creators to have material, but out of the RPG community at large. People are wanting to lash out, with their frustration , and its the only way to express it, as there's no way to "knee cap" the giant persay, and provide easier paths to showcase what they prefer.

You are so right about the whole "departure" thing. I decided to try out pathfinder when the OGL situation arose. While I am a big fan of pathfinder, there are certainly things that i like better in d&d (looking at you vancian spellcasting). But just because I chose to try something different doesn't mean I'm cutting all ties. Just because I'm not a fan of the company, that doesn't mean I hate the game.

D&D is a genre. That is why WotC’s current debauchery of it is transient. While rules can be bad (hello 4E), and settings can be ruined, the genre will persist and always gravitates back to its true north of heroic fantasy. The era of proms, coffee shops, and moral relativism will end quickly, and soon enough characters will be back to slaying evil and gathering treasure.

I enjoyed listening to your thoughts on the video and I made it to the end. I think we should make an effort to remove dnd as the "face" or "trunk" of TTRPGs. There are countless other games that are also worthy of being someone's first TTRPG. It's important to recognize that when WoTC wants to market their products, they reach out to content creators. DnD large presence was built by its fans(when I say fans I include content creators) and it can easily be dismantled. This was clearly shown last year There are several people making great TTRPGs and it's a shame that they are just considered to be DnD alternatives. Imagine if we talked about videogames like this

Blaine's opinion that D&D just became popular with 5th edition is simply a byproduct of his awareness of D&D & ttrpgs. The hesitation of learning a new ttrpg is only a thing for newcomers.

I will be eternally grateful for DnD for introducing me to tabletop rpg's . I started playing becmi and 1sr ed in the late 80's, unfortunately dnd today is barely recogniseable as dungeons and dragons and does not faithfully encompass the core aspects of what the game should be. 5e may be more popular but thats like saying burger king is the best burger because it sells more.

"Hi! My name is No-nad..." Wait, wtf did he just say?! *Double checks channel name* Ohhhh, glad i just misheard that.

18:25 and here is whrer i'm going to completely disagree. I do guess its the Argo arugment but if 'you can play however you want, ingore any rule and make you own stuff up!' Why would i spend any money on a book i won't use?

Thanks for a very nice reaction video. On your advice, I went and watched their video and, although I don't 100% agree with it (or even your reactions), I think there's a lot that folk could learn from Blaine's commentary. Again, thanks for the solid content.

Blaine killed it as always But I'm with ya we don't talk as often anymore but I'm glad I got to meet you dude and I know whenever we end up hanging/talking again we would get along like no time has passed at all

Couple of things; Pathfinder as a game, intiatially as a clone of 3.5 and then as it's own entity over the following years, started in 2009. Yeah, Paizo still can't compete with "Hasbro's Marketing Budget", but they have managed to create the second most popular and well known TTRPG without. It certainly can be done especially if we are entering another era of "bad edition D&D". You know, like 4th Edition. Secondly, while hating D&D might not be the right thing to do (and we probably confuse the term D&D for WotC/Hasbro), we certainly have reason, a freaking mountain full of reasons to hate WotC. There is no pretending otherwise.

I left the DnD Community basically around the time of the OGL drama. I have kept a pulse on events but honestly it sounds exhausting.

Public awareness has indeed grown, but i wouldn't say 50% of the people would understand what a nat20 is. I believe i watched Blaine's video a while ago.

Quick reminder to everyone that ADnD 1e and 2e are more similar to each other than 5e and OneDnD OneDnD is a new edition whether you like it or not, because new edition=/= massive overhaul.

IT IS YOUR DUTY TO GET EVERY SPECIFIC RULE RIGHT!!!111!!!111! Man this video was spot on and I am glad you mentioned, along with him, that it isn't about playing a specific system, it is about enjoying the hobby with friends the way your table enjoys it regardless of what system they play. I have been an advocate for that for a very long time, but so many bad actors try to strawman me and say it is me saying don't play D&D (because I think it IS a bad system for what it is supposed to be). It is always about trying new things to take a break.

43:20 I think he just took a shot at Gale from Monarch's Factory. I'm going to email this to her Grandma.

Here is a thing I recently learned/thought about: Tabletop Roleplay Games are basically systems, yeah? It is a set of rules for you to use as you see fit. The moment you start using those rules, you are a game developer. It is no difference in the basics from using PF2 than writing a game in C#.

I always homebrew, and i love to come out with different mechanics based on the character and the player. So, to help my narrative impaired brawler that always go "i throw a punch" and make him have fun with just throwing dice, i made a round-based fight without damage, just a dice battle where the first to get 10 points wins, the thing is that this turned into a personal immersive heavy decision-making and punishing fight kinda like The Raid, where he was incentivised to use his brain, gaining automatic advantages with coherent actions and automatic losses with morronic decisions, so much so that he decided to thrust his metal arm in the enemy mouth, and this was an instakill before the battle reached 10, and he said "wow, so i can tell exactly what i want to do and win the fight?!" and i was like "yep, i hate dices, but i want to empower you.". Sadly he died in the same session. Now, i'm a player in a D&D campaign, and the pace is so different it hurts, the constant dice throwing to everything, the high dependency on mathematics and the ammount of effort i have to make so the decisions of my character reflect the rules of D&D is kinda..... boring. I feel constrained.

Blaine's video has said nothing new, many people of smaller staure have said much the same, but even if that is so, than maybe the popularity of this video and the reactions to it will make people consider being nicer, and for that, he has my gratitude. Perhaps now i can look into new systems without people berating me for coming from D&D. The irony of being told to play a different system then being called various denigrating things for daring to not being a tabletop virgin.

IMO, the fact that 5e's skills are WAY lighter and less in depth than other systems is actually its strength in helping newbies feel empowered to roleplay. They don't need to understand anything like the specific skill crunch of Pathfinder 2e or anything about clocks or anything of that sort. Just roll a dice with a few number bonuses and the dm can just determine the result mostly based on vibes. 5e does have ALOT of issues (Especially balance-wise), but I think the super light skills system is part of what made it easier for me and alot of others to get into the system Also, the dogpiling you mentioned earlier often, in my opinion, only serves to drive 5e players back to the 5e community where they won't get bashed for starting off with 5e. Thank you so much for being kinder to those of us who are still dipping our toes into unfamiliar systems!

Just to let you know, Nonat, I like your way of covering Pathfinder content. I'm still playing 1e, so I feel like through your videos, I won't be completely lost when I eventually pick up a 2e group. I'm glad that you're still going at it.

Well said buddy! I feel like those of us wanting to only focus on positivity in the gaming space is such a small space, mostly because they don't get the views. But my mental gas tank just can't do the drama channel stuff. And as I always say, as long as no one get's hurt "You can't have fun wrong". More RPG's, is more tools in your tool box. Every tool has a use, but they're all useful in some way.

I left fifth edition DND over eight years ago lol, I found the system lacked any sort of creative outlet or character development and the advantage/disadvantage system was the worst thing I have seen invented in a role-play game ever. Is lack of a rules framework for anything outside of it. Bad combat design left much to be desired. Ask for respect, I can respect another human being without having to respect their decisions or choices they make and as a human being and entitled to critique and or criticize them as long as I do so in a polite manner. The flaw and you respect logic is respect, is earned by people not simply given because they feel it is deserved, and the attitude that you should give everyone respect without them earning it is one of the problems in our society at the moment. And same play in the game you like is fine, that point I agree with, but when most people have to homebrew for fifth edition or literally rewrite rules or create their own rules for a game that in itself is a condemnation of the game design and the creators of the game in the first place, it meant it was lacking structure, or a complete framework and should not have been released until probably vetted and ready to be utilized. The system is meant to be permissive towards players, it doesn’t build any sort of challenge nor teach people that failure is acceptable outcome in the situation, the monsters are intentionally designed a weaker than the players, etc. This type of video by you is why I almost never watch your material.

Not pushing to try the system, just that if you want to forget the negativity i suggest spending 2 minutes on DC20's discord or any livestream's chat replay. You will see people talking about what they love

*Squints* Winco corn flakes? Someone lives on the west coast. Rolling for more insight.

I had forgotten about you making EXP to LVL3 in Pathfinder and that vid was KILLER. :D

Haven't played 4e, but from what I know of it, it seems like it was very well balanced, but it was sooooooo granular that gameplay slowed to a crawl. Respectfully, I'm gonna nitpick a few things: As a community, we need to stop saying "roleplay" when we mean "social interaction." The entire game is role-play and social interaction is one of its 3 pillars: Combat+Exploration+Social = roleplay. Of course, that term is less cumbersome in conversation, but it leads to a misunderstanding in which "social" is the only roleplay aspect and is completly divorced from the rest of the game. *50 years. **The "One D&D" thing - they weren't trying to herald an entirely new edition, it was the opposite. What they wanted to convey is that though they're updating the rules, it's all the same game within a single ecosystem. They've been very adamant about not wanting the rules update to be perceived as a new system since the beginning. The confusion is not from Wizards approach but from the perspective of veterans who were equally adamant saying "call it what you want, it's a new edition and you can't fool us." Blane's video is likely not going to perform as well as his others for all the reasons you've highlighted, but I think a lot of creators can relate to his message and it will likely spark much conversation within the space even if it doesn't get the viewership it deserves.

12:30 everyone hates d4 fours nobody respects the caltrop

Growing up I primarily played DnD but also played GURPs, Shadowrun, and Star Wars. I have never felt the need to be critical of other games. I found something enjoyable in each one.

If 5e is your game, drop WotC and move to the 3rd party studio market. I'm not a 5e guy at all myself, but I do print and sell minis, and the amount of high quality 5e content 3rd party studios are releasing alongside their minis each month (Patreon/Tribes) is actually staggering. Real art, real adventures, new mechanics and creatures, every, single, month... TBH, I picked up the 5e core books on super discount just because much of this content is so good compared to WotC's "take" on modern DnD's settings. Whatever your flavor, a studio is making something to fit. I guess not unlike 3.0 and 3.5...

I play my setting using 3 different systems: City of Mist for RP heavy stuff lacking combat, 5e for general roleplay and combat, and P2E for deep dungeons and deep technically combat. There's nothing stopping you from using multiple systems besides elitisms and worrying about what other people think of you. Trust from me, it can be very fun, don't let it hinder your potential joy.

I am one who still holds onto 3.5ED, and I agree - the player base of 5E is entirely different from "my" player base. In more than one way tho - "my" player base played D&D to be adventurers, to kill dragons, to experience a fun and interesting story with a combat engine attached they understood. The 5E player base seems to mostly play in order to have some kind of therapy session, to get into romances or , I quote, "explore their sexual identities". You think this is unfair of me to state? Look up D&D horror stories and pay close attention how many are 5E and how many are 3.5E. Not saying "my" player base is sane and completely without horror stories, but _we_ played to be adventurers, the new generation seems to play for far more nebulous reasons.

Hasbro/WOtC are Dr. Frankenstein. They took parts of a beautiful woman and have made the monsters bride. The villagers are here with torches

Here’s a thought: you can find older editions of DnD OR make the game the way you want. Just like the original vision of the game. DMs take control of your games and make the world yours - this is from way back in 2nd edition

I "departed" from D&D in the early 90s and didnt play it again until Covid because I was introducing my kids to it. The idea is you depart from D&D and dont go back because you will find games exponentially better than D&D and will have no desire to go back.

The last D&D book i bought was when it was owned by TSR. I bought my 3rd edition books used on ebay and stole my 5th edition books from online. I only pay for splatbooks made by small creators.

4th edition did feel more like Wow then D&D, it is the reason Pathfinder became the largest TTRPG until 5th ed came out. 4th wasn't unbalanced, rather many classes felt a bit mirrored. 5 ed did have the same function as D&D Basic used to have: It is beginner friendly and quick. I think the problem with 5th edition is that unlike D&D Basic, there is no AD&D for the players who want something more advanced. Adding more and more optional rules tend to get a bit confusing and not all optional rules work well together. I think what Hasbro should do is to license out the AD&D and have another company make a AD&D 3rd edition. TSR already proved that the concept works. WotC does not have enough employees to make a parallel system, they have shrunk their employees too much for that being an option. Having a simple or advanced system isn't better or worse, it depends on individual taste. Gygax knew this which is why he decided to split the White box into 2 different systems in AD&D and D&D Basic. I think successful RPGs need a way to get in beginners or the system will fail. 5th ed have that covered. The problem is more that people who played for a few years and want something a bit more to set their teeth into (which of course not all people want but it is more then a few) tend to move over to Pathfinder. However, Pathfinder isn't really meant to be half of a combined system like Basic + AD&D so it is a bit in between those 2. WotC have tried to make the base system relatively easy and beginner friendly and release additional optional books to make the system more advanced since 3rd edition but it never really worked, it have just lead to confusion and a player showing up with some additional book that makes everyone else character far weaker in comparison the their. TSR did understand this, but I think Hasbro is focusing more on just growing the hobby instead of trying to also cash in on the experienced crew. Yeah, I am not saying all people who played for years want a more advanced system but some certainly do which is why so many Pathfinder players started with D&D and moved over after a couple of years.

16:04 I think you really hit the nail for me in some of these discussions. I understand that Dnd in and of itself for alot of people can be a time sink, setting up sessions can be hard, finding people to play with etc but it does sort of bother me that how learning a new system can be seen as "a new mountain to climb" one of the best parts of RPGs is technically only one person needs to own the rules to run a game and alot of really good games have SRDs online for free (PF, blades in the dark, fate core, OSE) so you can try before you buy with little to no commitment outside of running and organizing the game. maybe the new thing wont be your MAIN thing but it can open your eyes to new ideas and even inspire new homebrew that you can use to enhance your own games. Even if you're the type of GM you has basically turned Dnd into a completely new game and uses it as an avenue for practicing game design its good practice to peak over the fence every now and again and see what other games do well and what makes it work.

And I am back from the Original Video!

Most of us 3.5 DnD players moved to Pathfinder.

I started in 1998 in 2nd Edition, playing with people who played since the 70's, and the culture and system have changed to the point of being unrecognizable. 3.5 was peak in terms of systems, but I'd say the culture of the players from the 70's and 80's was peak. Tbf, it was during 3.5 that the real commodification of DnD began, with the endless books, but somehow each of them was still fun and seemed to add something. This brought in normal consumers, and with that, ever increasing amounts of hand holding and reductionism began. 4th edition basically tried to be a pen and paper World of Warcraft, and everyone hated it. The people I learned from ALL had their own worlds, mythos, races cultures, and I inherited that and have had a world I've been expanding and evolving for 20 years. When 5th edition came out, I had so much invested in my 3.5 based world I had zero interest in learning a new system and modifying my world to match it (and what I considered a watered down system anyway)

I started playing back during the Basic set and then Advanced DnD. I've played games such as Talislanta, Paranoia, Ghostbusters (box set), GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, etc, etc. I remember the Satanic Panic and how when you played these games you almost had to vet people before you felt comfortable about talking about playing TTRPGs and I am glad to see that it has become largely mainstream due to the involvement of celebrities and the advent of the internet. Plus, I love seeing how others run their games. As much as I hate WoTC, DnD will always hold a special place in my heart. I'm a recent convert to Pathfinder and so far, I like it, but the crunchiness is well, crunchy. It is hard for me to wrap my head around some "feats" that seem to be parts of skills or even a lot of the verbiage that is used. There are points when reading the rules where the rule isn't broken down Barney style, especially rules where you may have an ability that gives a second attack but the MAP isn't figured in until after the initial attack...looking at you fighter Double Slice. Anyway, back to the video, Wizards did themselves a big disservice by splitting the community, however, most of the people that left, influencers especially, went right back.

The only 5E that I'd actually sit down to play is Wands & Wizards (Harry Potter D&D basically) ... not gonna give WOTC another cent.

What I would suggest about the whole running out of content thing, is for one I liked the comparison video you did of the 5e barbarian and pf2 barbarian, it would be neat seeing those comparisons for other classes. Second, maybe do stuff thay isn't rules-based and more story based? Like storytimes.

I just wanted to sat, I'm glad to see you again. I've aleardy left my 'I made it' comment on blain's vid. During the ogl debacle, I did check out other systems, and I binged your content starting with your class vid. Watching you made me ignor the agressive reditors and try the system Not for mer, but I'm glad I tried. Thx

Savage pathfinder is what I like now.

I think this, the original Blaine video and the recent One Shot Questers video are long overdue. During yhe OGL fiasco i was demonized for saying i would still play DnD and keep my Beyond subscription. Why is it controversial to love DnD when its given me so much for over 20 years on soany forms. It is okay to like DnD. Hell some of the people boycotting WoTC are still willing to play Crhulu🤷🏾‍♂️. Its a game that at its core is whatever you want it to be. So do that.

The part of the video concentrating on how the RPGs relate to one another made me comment, as it is completely different from where I live. When I started playing tabletop RPG there was no D&D in my region. It became popular about 10 years later with 3.5, but 4e was almost non-existent here and the 5e, while popular for a time, is no longer published in my language. BG 3 changed nothing, as the D&D 5e was discontinued when it was released. I played most of the editions, mostly out of curiosity, but not for long (I think less than three hundred sessions combined throughout the years - not much for me). I regularly play other games, none of which are dungeon crawl-oriented. Those are much more popular where I live. Young people join the hobby never having a chance to try D&D - or Pathfinder, as it never published a single book here. All of what you say is possibly correct for the anglophone world - and of course, it is the biggest RPG market. But it is worth to remember that it is not "planet America". D&D is not a synonym for RPG here, it is one of the RPGs, not even the most popular. Different places have different experiences.

god current d&d twitter discourse has gotten me so like cautious of any topic about d&d cause i saw this and my first thoughts were “oh god is this more grifter anti-woke nonsense about d&d” but glad to see it wasn’t and there is still sane discussions about d&d

That intro was the most ADHD sentence I've ever heard xD

I have to agree, having had fun playing AD&D 2e back in the 90s, and been through the 5e, it's exhausting keeping up with the multiple issues afflicting D&D. Caused me to focus on Cyberpunk Red and the Palladium system.

The issues with 4 E were numerous; Constant errata made the books you owned become invalid as reference material, the primary thing you bought them for. The rules and mechanical homogeneity between classes made none of the classes feel mechanically distinct, and it was very influenced by MMOs but in a way that made D&D feel like it was lazily chasing other games, instead of trailblazing, it also felt simplistic, not simplified and streamlined. It wasn't good as a ruleset. It did offer up some interesting ideas, most particularly the idea of being more balanced per encounter than per adventure day, with many powers recharging at each encounter, but it didn't execute well enough for the couple of interesting ideas to save the system at large. PF2E actually takes many of those concepts and does it better imo (though PF2E has its own, not insignificant, issues).

We still play what is basically heavily houseruled AD&D 2nd Edition that has evolved over 3 decades. I play 5e in a local club, its fine, I am probably never personally buying a WotC product though.

This came at the right time. I felt inspired to make some abomination that mixes elements of pf2e and 5e. This has given me more motivation to work on it

Been saying it for a while and I'll say it here, if we want TTRPG's to unhook itself from the domination of DnD and by extension Hasbro/WotC then we need a new acronym. I propose TRG (Tabletop Roleplaying Game), its shorter, snappier, and rolls off the tongue much better. Is this the only thing that needs to be done? No but we need to start taking steps.

I am fine with a bit of homebrew with 5e. Likewise with PF2. I agree with you that we are not fused on a given community (?) : we can play one table with Rolemaster, another with 5e, etc.

The video is an incredible video! It is overdue to hear these opinions that I assumed others also have. I have only being playing and running 5e since late 2019 and it's a wild hobby. But it is a hobby after all. (Not to discredit the lucky ones that can successfully earn money while doing it) Let's all be glad to be able to enjoy what we each believe is fun. And we all need to stop yucking everyone else's yum.