THIS IS WHAT BAD MATCH UPS REALLY LOOK LIKE 

There you go.

Gee, I wonder if there was a traumatic event that happened relating to these two characters for guile to act this way

It's not a bad match up, it's just lore accurate.

Guile was built to shit on M. Bison, bringing lore to life.

Lore accurate.

You can still cross up Guile and any other character in the corner. And it's actually easier to setup an ambiguous crossup since the spacing will be more fixed.

There are a few characters that function better in the corner. Vega has faster options, Chun-Li gets some easy side-switch shenanigans.

@@malcolm8815 Is SF4 the one where certain characters could only crossup on the right corner? I feel like I remember that being a thing.

@@TelvanniGuard Not SF4. Corner changes nothing regarding cross up in that game, although it might change some setups like unblockables.

I mean it works like that in some other games too

I guess the rationale is that you get low and punish their landing but yeah probably shouldn't be so

Lmao

I dropped DJ for Guile for a while in 4 just because he would get eaten alive by so many characters. It really only got worse for him as everyone else’s power level got higher.

Deejay in 4 is kinda sad in general. He isn't outright BAD or anything, but he doesn't do anything the dedicated charge zoners or rushdowns can't do better, and can't really justify having the mediocre potential for both.

Just don't use normals

OH, REALLY!!!!????

If u talking bout sf4 dj is most definitely even with bison

I believe in CT it was mostly considered a 9.5-0.5 matchup. You could technically win a round or even a match as Tager, but you basically had to guess every 50/50 perfectly.

I first thought it is Shuma Gorath.

When will they learn?! That actions have consequences?!? You frickin fricks can never be quenched

@@rebirth2526 "We've got Shuma-Gorath at home."

Justin: NR you have to fix your game, that fireball spam is OP! Also Justin: picks classic Sagat in SF2T...

@@TesterAZMNot just any Sagat. The dreaded O. Sagat. With some occasional Vega wall dive loops on the side. I’m sure if Akuma wasn’t banned in serious play he would pick that shit all day.

With the greatest of ease.

With real Dignity

indeed

"THIS IS JUSTICE !"

@@Gash_Kobeth "WE ARE THE WORLD! WE ARE THE CHILDREN!"

Yeah, I feel like people complain so much about matchups that are probably 6-4. When OG games have 8-2s and 9-1s. that huge emotional payoff when you win such a bad matchup... you don't get that in non niche games anymore unfortunately.

​​@@CMCAdvancedalthough I love watching that game, I've never really played it. Are Hugo and Bison really that bad there? I recall the Supercombo wiki saying both characters were god awful, and were below Dan on the tier list

“Bad” can imply any level of bad, from slight disadvantage to complete blowout. You’re just arguing meaningless semantics

As someone who plays Dan in SF4... I know agony

Mad Batchups

Life vs me is like 9-1

And then explain the differences between 7/3's, 8/2's etc

Nah I've seen hona give some shotos hell he just gotta belly flop when he throws the fireball and do it to go through then pressure him with meaty belly flop justin had a video where a Honda was giving him hell

@@lestonclark2398 was this in super turbo tho? cause he prob doesnt have the options to get around it. Plus, you gotta remember, that is apparently one of the best honda players in the world.

@@damsen978 lol no. Bro was absolutely locked down. Jumping would have been even MORE disastrous, if that’s even possible lol

@@damsen978 you really critiquing the best Honda player in the world at least at that time based on what Justin Wong said? Like if he’s that good he knows what he’s doing. It’s just unfortunate that he couldn’t actually do anything in this match up.

​@@damsen978 ​ Honda is fat. Also, Jwong mentioned he has that directional influence on his fierce to help, but its still hard. and even if he does it, He's committed to a neutral jump when the ryu can move. He doesn't receive chip but he has even fewer ways to approach after landing, Sometimes, even if he makes it over, it's not even a neutral situation when he lands so he can't even guess and is forced to block another fireball. Movement is so important

Tampa Bison vs Sabin in sf4 (final round I'm pretty sure?) was a hidden classic.

he OD

I miss vanilla Arakune, he wasn't Nu levels of broken, but damn was he overturned 😊

@@bubblegumxo You mean the one in CT where he didn't have a Curse Gauge to build? That was ridiculous! And fun! Honestly, I can respect someone's opinion if they consider him as strong as Nu. He can create some pretty hopeless situations!

@@nemoisnobody yessss and even before then because iirc they nerfed him basically every new entry :(. Curse spam WAS pretty cheap, but now it's a large pill to swallow with the changes

Considering what Triviality can do with Peacock at close range, it might be more like Beowulf vs Peacock or if Big Band had no parry. Point still stands though, it's brutal

​​​@@bubblegumxo You're crazy if you think that arakune was weaker than nu in CT

Yea I'm liking this type of variety for sure, its nice to know how some of these players got recognized too.

funny thing is that its not even tager's worst match up in this game

​@@L4K1NGwho is then? Now I'm curious.

@@pedrohenrique-db3xd i'd argue izanami, carl, es and izayoi are worse and i believe Nine is the worst. Litchi and Hazama are also quite awful. Tager is actually a decent character, but half the cast invalidates his archetype

Nah Tager X Mu 13 in CT is literally impossible to even play. Although Tagar X Mai in CF is close.

Not even the worst matchup in the game, and from collected statistics is actually evenish more than horrible. It's just that when a Ryu's feeling it, Honda's not getting in. But a lot of the time, Honda can actually get in with a good call or a mistake from Ryu, and his reward a lot of the time is "Ryu just dies". It feels ugly and lucky, but happens often enough that the match scores across Japanese and French showmatches and Japanese weekly etc. events end up being about even. If you want an awful MU for Honda, it's Chun. With Ryu, if you make good calls, Honda will suffer. With Chun, you can build a pattern where you mostly don't have to make calls and Honda will struggle to get in. And that shows up in the match stats. The actual ST horror story (both players' intuition wise, as well as statistically) is Gief vs. Honda. Hands just invalidates most everything Gief has, and his only grounded tool is... a jab. Against hundred hands. I don't think I need to explain which way the payoffs go in that exchange. Cammy vs. O.Sagat is also dreadful, search for Muneo Nakamura Sagat.

Fireballs are meant to zone There is a different between zoning and spamming. Zoning require perfect timing and spacing. Spamming is just wiggling stick and spamming buttons and move is auto and multiple can exist in one screen. That does not exist in SF since you can only do one FB at a time and cant spam it.

Magaki exists.

@@mappybc6097He is a boss character though. Kinda like complaining about how strong Akuma is

​@@NoEvilEyeHowever, fireballs aren't the only zoning tools. You can even zone with normals. It becomes spamming once throwing fireballs is the only strategy in the match knowing how cheap and annoying it is in certain games and match ups (take for example zoners from NRS games)

In BBCF it's not a low anymore. Thank God.

Statistically, Ryu-Honda ends up being pretty even, actually. There's a difference between what we feel vs. what the stats end up showing. One guy has been collecting match data from Japanese FT5s, French showmatches and Japanese weekly etc. events, and the data for Honda vs. fireball characters looks like this atm: (Charname (bad/good for Honda)) Ryu (even); Guile (disadvantage); Ken (disadvantage); Chun (very big disadvantage); Sagat (advantage); Dhalsim (advantage); DJ (disadvantage) That's counterintuitive by most understandings, but from watching a bunch of sets, feels more or less right: Honda vs. Ryu looks like a struggle, but in the end the match scores look much more even than you'd think, and you don't register the sort of visceral surprise from Honda winning vs. Ryu that you would if say, FChamp's SF4 Sim would've won against Daigo's Yun in that set. Our subconscious knows something our conscious minds don't. What is it? I think it's that a lot of Honda's old MU ratings are based on how painful it feels to get in, especially when the Ryu's feeling it. Those MU ratings just grossly discount "the opponent fucking died" as Honda's reward because scoring one jumpin feels lucky vs. Ryu needing consistency across multiple low reward interactions to keep Honda out. So we naturally see Ryu winning a lot of those small interactions. But MU ratings are supposed to be agnostic as to how the winning happens, and when we look at scores Honda clearly does win at rates that don't track with the old "gets murdered by fireballs" narrative. What gives? I have a copy of the book Soccernomics. Its intro has a great story in this vein: A soccer team wanted to find out how to take corner kicks so their data department went through footage of like 400 corner kicks from various leagues around the world and tabulated the results. Their results were clear: A so-called inswinger was the play. The data people went to the coach and told him so. The coach's reaction was more or less "wtf are you mad, I have decades of experience and KNOW the outswinger is better." But the data disagreed, yet the coach was certain. How? It's because outswingers created situations where the receiving player intentionally caught the ball and put it in the net. The coach was an old football veteran, and outswingers just created situations that looked like good football. There was an appreciation for the art. Inswingers, by contrast, created ugly, messy situations completely lacking in art, but in that mess someone seemed to manage to put the ball into the goal more often than not. But for the coach, the good football was what stuck in his mind, since he was an appreciator of the art of playing good soccer. To the coach, the inswinger messes just felt like random happenstance. Zoner vs. Honda MUs are rated in that way, I think, in that the difficulty of Honda getting in and the seeming hopelessness of a good zoner round get weighed a lot, but Honda getting in and the zoner just fucking dying just feels like a fluke and as a result it doesn't get weighted properly even though the rounds and games keep trickling in. People just intuitively discount Honda getting in as scoring a lucky break and don't factor it in. And the thing is, it often *is* a lucky break. But pretty often Honda's reward is just "the opponent died", and that matters. His buttons are also long and high damage, so he doesn't actually have to get all that close to score hits, and his damage output means he'll mostly win random trades.

A rare, legit, 10-0 matchup

as an akatsuki main i too agree 🤣

There's no level of difficulty that justifies a character being op though. I agree with your general sentiment.

Ryu vs. Honda ends up being statistically even, actually. It's just that when a Ryu's feeling it, Honda's not getting in. But a lot of the time, Honda can actually get in with a good call or a mistake from Ryu, and his reward a lot of the time is "Ryu just dies". It feels ugly and lucky, but happens often enough that the match scores across Japanese and French showmatches and Japanese weekly etc. events end up being about even. We just intuitively discount those Honda wins because they feel like flukes while Ryu's wins look like (and are) playing good Street Fighter over a prolonged period of time. Honda's actual nightmare MU is Chun. If Ryu makes good calls, Honda trying to get in is suffering. Chun can set up a pattern where she doesn't really have to make good calls and Honda still suffers trying to get in. That's the sort of feeling I got when trawling through a bunch of Honda MU footage, and the stats from the guy who collected the French and Japanese match footage agree.