Y’all 😭 1) I recorded all of this in one batch, so I still got a cohesive experience when I watched. 2) the way I split it is (accidentally) a BETTER thematic split than if the video was stopped right before TB started 3) the same amount of videos will be coming out in the same amount of time, so there isn’t really actually a delay in content If you’re just being silly, please remember to be careful with your words, as tone is hard to read on the internet and teasing can quickly seem like unkindness in written word. If you’re ACTUALLY genuinely upset that Mutiny got split… go listen to Mutiny on your own and like, go outside and get some fresh air or something. I promise it’s not that big of a deal 💕 Sheesh.
I actually like this split better too 😁 It works thematically, as this was the part of Mutiny that related to Scylla, and the next is all about the mistake that's going to lead to Thunder Bringer. And this way the reactions are more balanced lengthwise.
Lol younare one of the few who realise how dumb getting angry over reaction vids is. Many youtubers apologies, which I get it, but I feel is a bit degrading.
Part of why Eurylochus is so upset at the start of Mutiny is because he realizes that Odysseus delegated choosing which six men would be sacrificed to Eurylochus when he ordered him to pass out six torches without telling him why.
I feel biased about it because wasn’t Euro ready to leave his men/friends behind at Circe’s island, so Ody had to go and get them. Literally sacrificing his life to retrieve his friends, but now Euro wants to criticize Ody? “Let’s just cut our loses, you and I, and let’s run.” I don’t know, I just feel conflicted.
One of the men being sacrificed was Eurylochus, according to the streaming animatic, he just happen to pass his torch to another man when needed his both hands to help. So the only one odysseus targeted as a sacrifice was him, probably because of the wind bag.
@@plagueofplagues5412 I feel like this exchange explains it best. Odysseus: "don't make me fight you brother. You know you would have done the same". Eurylochus: "If you want all the power, you must carry on the blame". He's basically saying "you know what ? Maybe I would have. But I am not the captain; you are. And clearly, you're not interested in what others might think of what you've decided for them. Deal with the consequences". Also, with Circe, he thought that their men were already lost and that trying to rescue them would only lead to more losses for nothing. He wasn't wrong either. Were it not for Hermes literal deus ex machina, Odysseus would have died or been turned into a pig when facing Circe. It's not exactly comparable to willingly sending your men to serve as living baits so that they could die in your place.
@@plagueofplagues5412The situation isn't quite the same. Eurylochus didn't think there was anything they could do to save the man enchanted by Circe (and if Hermes hadn't showed up to help, would he really be wrong?). And while there was no other way to get past Scylla, intentionally getting some of the man killed isn't something he could just shrug off.
@@officialmortius Personally, I feel like this cut works better, given the… motif implication of the sky changing. Intensity, bearing down, building up before the crash and fall.
It means we get more next time, and really, this was A LOT of emotions for the poor man to handle all at once. He didn't need even more trauma right away. Give me a minute to recover and slouch on his desk.
I think I still stand by the idea of Scylla singing only to Odysseus, I think she knows he planned to sacrifice his crew going in and likening her to him because they both were betrayed and have become monsters, protecting themselves only now that they've become what they are
In the Classic Mythology it was known that if you sailed too close to Scylla she would take 6 men from your ship, or at least thats how it was told in the Odyssey itself. And Odysseus knew this. It was originally why they tried to sail as close to Charybdis as they could but they were forced away by how destructive it was. Its kinda strange that Charybdis its absent from this version but who knows maybe they'll pop back up
@@Evnyofdeath I think it's because it would have been difficult to create a song that includes Charibds considering it's a watercyclone, a hole that sucks anyone that goes near them
“uhh eurylochus that only looks like one torch, uh, we gave you oNe jOb😑” (love your reactions mortius!! i’m catching up on the thunder saga reactions right now!🫶🏻)
I'm sure you've already gone back and noticed this, but just in case, I want to point out something in the official animatic for Scylla. Ody told Eurylochus to light up six torches - not to distribute them. Eurylochus told Odysseus that he was the one to open the wind bag, and Odysseus' response was "Okay, hold a torch for me." Odysseus was fully willing to sacrifice Eurylochus for his mistake, and Eury was about to die until he handed the torch off to another crewmate, not realizing that he was passing off his death sentence. Eurylochus' realization in the animatic is _so_ beautifully done.
Also, I'm actually so happy with the way you ended this video. I was nervous about how Scylla led perfectly into Mutiny, and Mutiny led perfectly into Thunder Bringer, so I thought no matter how you did it there was going to be an awkward cliffhanger for you. This way, the transitions feel more natural!
@@beanofglory1051 those two are far and away my favorites, but Yminity has the most horrifying scylla design I’ve seen yet so if that’s what being searched, take a look at that animatic
Honestly I always giggle a little bit that Ody is shocked, SHOCKED that his crew would turn on him after deliberately feeding six of them to a sea monster and admitting he was willing to sacrifice more. "My brothers...why?" HOMIE WHY TF DO YOU *THINK* 🤣🤣🤣
I think he's shocked cause 1) he thinks everyone is as desperate to get home as him and since after Scylla they should have a clear path home and no more danger if they'd listened to him, he figures they won't mind and 2) the crew needs him and they all know that. They're all stupid and wouldn't have survived this long if not for ody despite his mistakes which is probably why they didn't kill him after the mutiny and bandaged him instead cause they need his brains and also because getting home safely while your king dies on the way guarantees you a death sentence anyway 3) the crew blamed him for not being ruthless enough and being nice and soft so now that he's cold and calculating and putting pesky emotions aside, like Athena said,to get them home he figures they would be happy 😂😂 not you know afraid they'll be the next sacrifice. Point is basically ody is tired and mentally fucked up so he can't manipulate properly 😂😂
Not sure if you noticed, after Eury tells Ody he opened the wind bag, he tells Eury to "light up six torches". Eury was one of the men HOLDING the torches in the animatic, but dropped it before Scylla could eat him. Odysseus tried to feed him to Scylla.
@@somethingweird2611 Feel like it should be said that, He didn't know that would happen when he handed the torch off. He was just giving the person a way to see after a blow from the monster. It wasn't until that guy died helped Eury realize the torches were targets, and he would try to tell the last standing torchman.
Fun fact: even those of us who'd seen the demo bits of Mutiny were surprised when Ody got stabbed, the video of Jorge and Armando fighting on the beach always made it look like Odysseus killed Eurylochus there.
Mortius fun fact. Jay explained the electric guitar in when Eury sing. Is because Eury try to get Ody's place as the leader by challenging him to the duel
They even did a call back to the myth. Die in the blood where you bathe- 'He applied to Circe for means to make Scylla return his love; but Circe, jealous of the fair maiden, threw magic herbs into the well in which Scylla was wont to bathe, and by these herbs the maiden was metamorphosed in such a manner, that the upper part of her body remained that of a woman, while the lower part was changed into the tail of a fish or serpent, surrounded by dogs'
@@avhiorne8082 12 is including that time, the Iliad takes 10 years and goes through the Trojan war, and the odyssey takes another 10 years, which is what we’re going through, but the majority of the 10 years getting back are spent on calypsos island (7 years) which we haven’t gotten to yet
Btw the Scylla voices Is because of her six voices all her harmonies are actually made by overlapping 6 voice lines but she is also technically immortal being a cursed oceanid
I like this! I see three possibilities: * superbeing telepathy from Scylla to Ody * non-diagetic 'for the audience' moment a la Greek chorus * Odysseus's internal dialogue, imagining Scylla's side. He's real quiet, "not much to say," and might be obsessively contemplating how much he has in common with the monster that he's about to feed six of his decades-long friends to.
THAT is why I'm genuinely upset. I honestly might have to take my panic attack medicine right before the next premiere, because I still haven't recovered from the livestream. It has been 13 days, and I'm still not okay.
@@disableddragonborn Oh yea. I tear up, and still sometimes cry when listening to Thunder Bringer when I listen to the Thunder Saga as a whole, and ESPECIALLY when I listen to the whole musical in one go.
Only because of the big "FORESHADOWING" after he said he thought Eurylochus was about to die, I gotta say it was funny seeing Mortius trying to reckon with how many sailors were left at the beginning of Scylla because I'm sitting here having already heard thunder bringer thinking "Don't worry, the math gets much more explicit soon."
Poseidon is not afraid of Scylla, she lives next to his daughter Charybdis, who became a monster because she stood by him in the Tekoian war, and Poseidon does not want to disturb her, so he does not enter the territory of his house
I feel like this exchange explains Eurylochus position quite well. Odysseus: "Don't make me fight you brother! You know you would have done the same" ! Eurylochus: "If you want all the power, you must carry on the blame" ! He's basically saying "you know what ? Maybe I would have. But I am not the captain; you are. And clearly, you're not interested in what others might think of the decisions you make for them. Deal with the consequences". Also, with Circe, he thought that their men were already lost and that trying to rescue them would only lead to more losses for nothing. He wasn't wrong either. Were it not for Hermes literal deus ex machina, Odysseus would have died or been turned into a pig when facing Circe. It's not exactly comparable to willingly sending your men to serve as living baits so that they could die in your place.
I've spent the past 12 days arguing with people online about the things that take place in these two songs. If a good work of art sparks debate and argument, Thunder Saga is a masterpiece. A masterpiece that has severely messed me up.
i have had the same argument REPEATEDLY omg 😭 people keep going “odysseus was wrong! eurylochus was right!” “no, odysseus was wrong! eurylochus was right!” my brothers nobody is right or wrong 😭😭 understand the complexities of human emotions, PLEASE!!!!!! but tbh it just goes to show how jay writes these songs to actually give the debates genuine grounding and reasoning!! literal master of the arts fr
@@squidcoffee Odysseus was a loose cannon and had to be stopped. He's willing to kill his own men, whose safety is his responsibility, just to get home to a wife who did not marry the man he is now.
@@squidcoffeeyeah at this point it is genuinely foolish to try to take sides considering it's been proven that both odysseus and eurylochus put the crew in danger with their actions, they just do it in different ways but both of them have very legitimate reasons for why they do it
One of the things that makes Mutiny so much more devastating is a key moment from Suffering. Directly after the Siren tells Odysseus to pass through Scylla's lair, Odysseus mutters to himself that "...Scylla has a cost." He already knew, even before encountering the sirens, that the cost to pass Scylla is offering six people to feed each of her six heads. He just didn't realize THEY were going to be passing Scylla, since they had no reason to before Posideion blocked their way. Ever since then, Odysseus has been aware of the cost. He chose to go through Scylla's cavern knowing six of his crew would die, and that it would be his fault for letting it happen. He harbors that guilt all the way to the cave. His men WEREN'T aware, because they had their ears blocked, so they didn't know they were approaching the cave nor that six of them would die. They were blissfully ignorant, unaware that Odysseus was planning to ensure six of them never left the cave. They had complete faith that Odysseus was taking the safest route, believing he had their best interests in mind. Odysseus never told them about the danger, deciding that it was better to sacrifice six of his own men than to never reach home. He said that he would become the monster to everyone but himself and his crew, yet he sacrifices them anyway. Worse, Odysseus is likely feeling guilty about this secret while Eurylochus was feeling guilty about the windbag. This means that Scylla's words at the beginning of Song Three, "...deep down, you hide a reason for shame..." apply to Odysseus AND Eurylochus because they are BOTH hiding something. The difference is that Eurylochus confesses to his betrayal. Odysseus never does confess, even when accused of allowing the men to die. He doesn't say, "No. I'm so sorry. I allowed them to die." He says, "I CAN'T!" (Tell you the truth!) Eurylochus eventually had the humility to admit he'd messed up (even though he didn't HAVE to confess). But Odysseus was prideful till the end.
Eury and Ody have made VERY stupid mistakes (and it’s funny to me how some ppl get on your case for calling Ody dumb before cause of stuff like the self-doxxing against the Goddess of Wisdom’s wishes), they’re both human and have been worn down beyond belief. But Ody making Eury light 6 torches to unknowingly mark 6 of his friends for death after he was guilt ridden over the bag was the first nearly malicious act- especially cause it seems like Eury was meant to die too. It’s heartwarming that they still cared for each other after the fight. Eurylochus calling him “Ody” and losing hope saying they weren’t gonna make it home was so sad tho, honestly everyone deserved better.
@@dm_dude with the bag? Perhaps but with how close they were it was just as stupid as telling the cyclops all that info. Both made mistakes but the duty of having to make decisions and been betrayed many times left Odysseus broken to the point he became single minded.
@@dm_dude Eurylochus made the decision to trust some unknown magical beings over his own capitan and king, when he was the one Ody trusted the most. He *decided* to open the wind bag, he decided to disobey and because of him more than 500 men died. So...they both made decisions I would say, very bad ones, both of them
@@just_m.e7175 those man didn't die because Eury open the bag but because Poseidon come to hunt them cause Ody tell his name if Eury not open the bag only difference thing that gonna happen is where they meet Poseidon
@@dm_dude yeah Eurylicus made a “mistake” the same way some people “accidentally” have an affair. I maintain the opinion that Eurylicus’ decision to open the bag was premeditated and fully informed. Odysseus told them the storm was in the bag moments after the storm disappeared. Eurylicus, as second in command, should have been helping to guard the bag, not waiting 9 days for Odysseus to pass out from sleep deprivation. Eurylicus decided Odysseus was lying and decided to prove it, despite the other option being Odysseus was telling the truth and unleashing death on the fleet. It’s like thinking someone is lying about a peanut allergy and trying to prove it by sneaking them peanuts. Option 1 is you’re right and you prove they’re a liar, option 2 is you’re wrong and you killed them. Not really worth the gamble, especially with Ithica in sight.
Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this yet, but according to Jorge, the electric guitar playing under Eurolychus in Mutiny was meant to signify Eurolychus trying to step into Odysseus’s role as captain
Poseidon isn't actually scared of Scylla. In the original her lair is near Charibdis(not sure about the spelling) who is his daughter turned into a mindless monster as punishment from Zeus. Poseidon feels deep shame because the reason she was punished was she was trying to expand his territory by sinking islands. Poseidon is to ashamed and upset to go near her now.
Ah you mixed up Scylla and Charybdis, Charybdis was cursed by Zeus, Scylla was cursed by Circe out of jealousy since they loved the same man Glaucus but he liked Scylla, 'He applied to Circe for means to make Scylla return his love; but Circe, jealous of the fair maiden, threw magic herbs into the well in which Scylla was wont to bathe, and by these herbs the maiden was metamorphosed in such a manner, that the upper part of her body remained that of a woman, while the lower part was changed into the tail of a fish or serpent, surrounded by dogs'
"Inside lives Skylla, yelping hideously; her voice is no deeper than a young puppy's but she herself is a fearsome monster; no one could see her and still be happy, *not even a god if he went that way*. She has twelve feet all dangling down, six long necks with a grisly head on each of them, and in each head a triple row of crowded and close-set teeth, fraught with black death."
Funny how you managed to cut before the end of the song, and yet found what is quite possibly the best time to have done so, in order for the songs to line up well.
Since I've seen many people call Eurylochus a hypocrite, I believe that the difference between what Eurylochus wanted to do in the Circe Saga and this was that he viewed the men that had been turned to pigs as essentially already dead. He didn't see any way to save them and figured that confronting a goddess would only lead to more death. He was acting out of his fear of Circe and was trying to preserve the rest of the people he cared about. In this saga, Odysseus chooses to trust the sirens' advice and let six men die without any fight or alternate plan which was only motivated by his own personal wish to make it home. Eurylochus who has essentially only advocated for and cared about the crew sees this as the ultimate betrayal of the crew, of morals, and of Odysseus' character as a leader.
This, this is the biggest thing Even in Puppeteer his reasons for leaving the men who got turned into pigs is specifically to, well actually Eurylochus puts in best himself "Think about the men we have left until they're none". He always wanted to keep as many of the crew alive as he could, and he stayed on that view, even if he ultimately believe Odysseus was right in Puppeteer
THE ANIMATION FOR I’M WORSE NOW IS AMAZING! 💀 this is what happens when odysseus gets out of hand with no divine sugar mama to help him out of tough spots 😂😂
oh, oh!!! I have a theory (well, it's like a supporting theory based on gwendy's where scylla is just telepathically conversing with Ody until the "hello")- Jorge said in KYFC the lone "for nine days I stayed wide awake" was Ody basically telling the audience that due to exhaustion and lack of sleep, the poor man's body surrendered and is now currently in a dream, thus penelope's appearance in it. now, what if the line, "The lair of Scylla" in Scylla was Ody repeating to himself (mentally) what the sirens said, and essentially telling the audience the setting of the song. like, he's convincing himself that this path is a path of no return, that there's no going back. “This is _my_ only way home, and I'll be damned trice if I step back to this decision I've made.”
I agree that him saying "The lair of Scylla" seems likely to be in his own head, as it doesn't seem unlikely that at least a few of his crew would be aware of Scylla's price, and they wouldn't agree to that. Nobody in their right mind would.
@@marii.trd_ I didn't even think of that tbh. I guess the fact that he wasn't running his mouth off and being an arrogant idiot made him seem quiet, tbh. 🤣
My favourite thing about Epic is that while it is very modern in its adaptation of the Odyssey (which felt far more widely existential in its scope), it doesn't necessarily subscribe to the easily digestible and clear-cut pathway a lot of storytelling opts to walk and instead seems to lean back on the way old novels used to operate, presenting you with a complex situation to paint the picture of a corner of the world, or the state and journey of an individual, without spoonfeeding you that they were in the right. Odysseus has been learning all this time that he needs to be cruel and monstrous if he wants to get home, and that's what he does. We can argue all day whether he was correct or not in his choices (and both him and Eurylochus have their reasons) but the point is that he MADE them. And that he can never turn back
The thing is, unlike anything Eurylochus did before by mistake, Odysseus intentionally and knowingly chose to have those six die. And while we could say he had no choice, if he didn't light those six torches to mark targets for Scylla's six heads, then Scylla would blindly go for six random men, and there would've been a chance one of those would be Odysseus. A good captain would risk his life for his crew, but Ody couldn't do that. He had to get home and make sure his family is safe.
Exactly. I think a lot of people also forget that Ody and his men were side by side for 12 years (and more, in some cases.) He didn't discuss the plan with them - he, alone, decided their fate for them instead. And this isn't me hating on him (the same way I don't hate Eurylochus), I love complex characters and I love the way this has been progressing
@@eesmareed Yeah, I feel like the best choice would've been to discuss it beforehand, say that 6 people are guaranteed to die, and ask for volunteers. If no one does, then it's a game of chance, but if there's some, then the odds get better. Either way, they're prepared and are less likely to mutiny.
One of my favorite parts of this song is how it connects "Deep Down" as a musical motif. Ever since song 2, Just a Man, Odysseus has been hinting at his inevitable "descent" of becoming monster; "Deep down I would trade the world to see my son and wife" And then the next time it shows up is in Monster; "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves, and deep down I know this well". However, it flies under the radar until song 23, Scylla, when it becomes the main focus of the song, tying the monster deep down (Scylla) to the monster deep down (selfish desire).
The price of going through Scylla's cave is six men, one for each head. If Odysseus had told his men like, "Hey, this is our only way home, who is volunteering?" They likely would have committed mutiny anyway, or if not, insist Odysseus be one of the sacrifices. If Odysseus died there, it's unlikely the rest of the crew would have made it home, because their track record isn't great either. Some got turned into pigs by overly trusting Circe, and Eurylochus opened the damn bag when he didn't trust his king/captain/BROTHER-IN-LAW. What Odysseus did was wrong, but we can't say "if he had just been honest--" because the results may have ended up the same anyway.
If he'd been honest, his crew probably would have just said "We had a good run, but now let's just find a nice island to settle for the rest of our lives. You think Circe would be down for new citizens if we promise to behave?" The crew had a right to make the choice to give up on going home and live a full life away from Ithaca. Odysseus took that choice from them because, to him, the slim chance of seeing his wife again is more important than any of his crew's right to live. It's like your boss at work deciding to let you unknowingly kill yourself to get a project personally important to them done, and not telling you ahead of time because your boss didn't want to give you the opportunity to quit and find another job. It's exploitative, it's dehumanizing, and it runs counter to all ethical obligations a leader has to their followers. That's why Odysseus' choice is monstrous, even and especially to himself.
@@dm_dude Yes. After they provide time and time again that they were more than willing to disobey him and they literally stabbed him in the back. He was absolutely in the right for choosing himself
@@dm_dudeHe sacrificed them to Zeus because they literally stabbed him in the back when they were committing mutiny. If I was in his position there is no way I would have died for them.
@@dm_dude I think he wanted to get everyone home, but he was okay in his heart of hearts with being the only one going home. And realizing that he cared more about seeing his wife than keeping them alive was what caused his crew to mutiny.
Something I have not seen elaborated was that how truly was a deliberate sacrifice, yes, but it was so because Scylla ACCEPTED it. She targeted the torches and did not try to go after more sailors, effectively granting them passage at a cost. THAT is why she sings all those "we" and "deep down we are the same". She saw his intent and recognized it. And that is why Odysseus harmonizes in the end, because he agrees. Say "I am a monster" without saying "I am a monster".
I’m not sure if you noticed, but in Scylla, each time a head eats someone, it’s in line with a scream in the song. Jorge put the screams of the 6 dying crew mates. In the song. Beautiful🤌
Jorge recently did a little video on Eurylochus, and it's really interesting . You should check it out because he can explain it so much better than I can, but he does touch on the electric guitar playing with Eurylochus. Also, the reason you couldn't see any other men was because they were at the oars. There's actually 2 sea monsters that inhabit the same stretch of ocean - Scylla and charibdys which used to be used as an old way of saying stuck between a rock and a hard place, with Scylla you will lose exactly 6 men and Odysseus used the torches to mark them so he wouldn't get snatched, and with Charibdys you'll pretty much either lose all of your men or non (I'm pretty sure but not 100% but something along the lines of that)
No with Charibdys you *will* lose all your men. It's a massive whirlpool that you have to avoid. You will also lose all your men to scylla. The trick is to go inbetween the two but slightly closer to scylla - so they won't destroy the ship (Scylla lives somewhere very rocky, and charybdis... is a natural disaster), and only scylla will have the opportunity to take a man with each head.
@@Oznerock not 100% of the times. The whirpool (for the lack of a better term) of Charibdys goes off like 3 times a day. But if it does, there's no way to escape.
So my theory is that Eurylicus is so mad at Odysseus ONLY because every time Eurylicus himself would have run and taken the easy way out, Odysseus stayed and tried to keep everyone alive. He failed yes, but he tried. And really that whole encounter back in puppeteer sums it up. "There's no length I wouldn't go if it was you I'd have to save, I can only hope you'd do the same "O "... What if she can't be killed, would you choose to leave?"E "I don't know"O "...It's a game of wits, but you'll have to play."E "I have to try!"O And here we see what happens when Odysseus doesn't even try. Every time something has backfired previously we've seen him break a bit more from it, except for here. Bc he was expecting it, he planned it. And I think that's why Eurylicus was so angry
Yeah there's no outsmarting Scylla, and that's mythologically canon. She let ships pass in general, but each head would be fed. It's the toll, otherwise there's no passing, they would have to choose charybdis, which is certain death
The reason why Poseidon can't reach the lair of Scylla its because of her neighbor. A narrow pass, on the opposite is another monster named Charybdis, she is actually Poseidon's daughter. Water man here is still too guilty to approach his daughter after Zeus punish her and turned her into this ugly beast with sharp mouths. 😅
@@anastasija6866 Before Scylla became a monster, she's actually the daughter of Crataeis and there are also some accounts that she's the daughter of Hecate. Poseidon also happens to be Hecate's uncle. In other words, yup their related alright.
Why would anyone listen to someone who doesn't have their best interests in mind, especially after their faith in him had been faultering for a while, this was just the last straw
They just watched him murder six of their friends as a sacrifice to a monster. He committed treason against his own men. Betrayed their trust. How are they supposed to trust him after that?
(minor mutiny spoilers) tldr (this is LONG); nobody is right. nobody is wrong. people are complex. if you can understand one character you have to be able to understand another. accepting one perspective as the sole truth is ignorant. i think people get very aggressive over wether odysseus is right or eurylochus is right; anyone who debates over that has already missed the point. nobody is right but nobody is necessarily wrong, either. people who bash odysseus have to understand that, despite his actions being… morally questionable, he was _correct_. not right, but correct. “he knowingly killed six me-“ it was 6 or 43. i think that is something the eurylochus defenders do not understand: it was scylla or certain death. yes, he overdid it by essentially making eurylochus choose who died. but, as a captain, he is supposed to make difficult choices. it is like a trolley problem; it is 1 or 5 people. sure, you CAN not pull the lever. you had no impact, technically, on the 5 people who died. but if you DO pull the lever, despite the fact that you have now directly “chosen” to kill the one person, that is 4 people less who are dead. there was literally nothing else that man could have done. same goes to the other side of the spectrum. i am personally more partial to odysseus, but despite that i have to understand and accept that neither eurylochus nor his men were necessarily in the wrong, either. odysseus did what was needed, but his men were not thinking clearly. they were reasonably angry at watching their captain (who they had already been losing trust in) knowingly kill, as eurylochus said, six of their friends. rage makes people react without thinking. they made mistakes, but they are only human. they have taken so, so much. they are tired. again, i am not necessarily the world’s biggest eurylochus fan, but i can still understand his motives and see that if i was put in that position, i would not have reacted much differently. (which is also a point i’d like to make. people don’t understand what it’s like to make those decisions until it is actually them under the pressure) adding onto that last bit: i’ve seen people complain over eurylochus going “i’m just a man”. odysseus is not the only man with a penelope and a telemachus. the men on that ship all have their own motives, their own wants, their own fears, their own motivations, etc. they are ALSO just men. everyone wants to just. go. home. you cannot limit the sentiment of “im just a man” only to odysseus, that’s defeating the point! the point of that song is, at its core, is that the heroes and characters we see and read about are human in their own right and are not immune to guilt and feelings. denying this to other characters just goes to show that people just went “wow, emotional song” and moved on without ACTUALLY understand the actual meaning behind it so so so sorry for yapping this much 😭 the video isn’t even out yet lol. i hope someone reads this and understands that there is perspective to everything and that the world is more than black and white
Completely fair, what gets to me and a few others I've talked to especially those who are "eury is a hypocrite after Circe's" is on Circe's the men made their mistakes themselves, here Ody led them like lambs to slaughter, honestly I just wish he'd told them his plan and that anyone not on board to leave at the next opportunity, heck he may have gotten volunteers in people who had less/nothing to return to so those with more could get home.
This comment was absolutely brilliant. That's what I love about this story. Even in our own lives, in our own heads, we have to make decisions that seem unec or wrong from an outside perspective, because people don't want to see the inner workings of what's going on. The ancient Greeks weren't writing Game of Thrones. (No shade to Game of Thrones lol). They weren't writing Harry Potter. (No shade to that either!) They were writing about themselves, about people who had to make choices that sometimes only they could understand. "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves." You have to do what you know is right for you. Just like Odysseus, just like Eurylochus. And, yes, just like Poseidon. Sorry if that was way too long.
@@hindymarkowitz1340 yes, like in ruthlessness Poseidon was going after the person that blinded then taunted his son after killing his friend then drugging him 🤷
@@hindymarkowitz1340 yes, exactly!!! you’ve said exactly the point i wanted to make :D i think people have gotten so used to characters that are written without flaws. (by that, i mean *real* flaws! authors like to give them the most bare-bones, not actually bad or questionable traits…) when faced with the humanity in characters like odysseus and euylochus, people think someone has to be wrong; and that’s the beauty of it, that nobody can ever have the true righteousness! when you actually go back and consider things you’ve done in another perspective, you realize just how you might’ve affected someone else. i’ve done this to people before-when they do something hurtful, i might remember it. i’ll do it back to them… unsurprisingly, they do not take it well haha i’m glad my comment resonated with you!! and don’t worry, passion is never too long :)
@@phoenix_songbird yes! just like how the cyclops (who comes from a race that has DIFFERENT moral standards than humans) was just avenging his dead friend
In defense of Eurylochus and why he is suddenly preaching brotherhood, Ody has been the one insisting to people again and again to have kindness. And even though reluctant, Eurylochus listened to him time and time again, perhaps seeing where Ody is coming from. Suddenly Ody flips the switch. When someone ignites change in you, wouldn't you feel betrayed if they go on to do the opposite of what they've instilled in you? Ody changed him. It's really sad this is what happened. Also i feel like that confession wouldn't have had that effect on Ody if he just let Eury speak in Puppeteer.... like. Just listen to him. "If I become the monster to everyone but us" like okaaayyy i guess u only mean your family xD
I will say that Mr. Jalapeño has confirmed that since Eurylochus’s “instrument” isn’t actually an instrument and instead is the crew, that it allowed Jorge to steal other character’s instruments and use it for Eurylochus from time to time.
Jorge himself in the original video of "how i made the music for scylla" that the EPIC version on scylla has telepathy! So the choirs in the beginning could be scylla talking to odysseus, about what he was going to have to do inorder to get through the cave
i know this is pre-recorded but I can't believe you just cut mutiny in the middle like that and now I have to wait till Monday!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAH the suspense is too much for me.
I have been waiting so very long for Scylla to drop and coupled with the animatics it's definately among my top 5 Epic songs. Can't wait to see your reactions! Also, love the animatic in the trailer for the live, I cackled so loud when you said that lol
"Don't make me fight you brother, you know you'd have done the same!" No Odysseus, that's the problem. He wouldn't, Eurylochus, maybe he'd never get home with the choices he'd make, but he would not make the choice to intentionally sacrifice men because he'd rather get home than try to preserve their lives. Also, Odyssey asking "Brothers Why?" as if he didn't just stab their collective advocate, and that he seems to view their lives as dispensable, because any of them could have been the one the Eurylochus just happened to hand the torches to because Odysseus didn't tell him what was going on. Any of them could have been the 6that died
After the last episode, I watched all the sagas on Jorge's channel. I am so happy to support Epic. It is beautifully written and performed. Thank you for making it easy for me by having the link ready. I've found you through your reactions to the songs. Hi! 🎉
I was just watching and realized that right as mutiny started and Eurylochus demanded Odysseus to tell him that he didn't know that would happen and that he didn't just sacrifice 6 men, that got me thinking and made me go back to the underworld saga and listen to monster one again and notices Odysseus says that if they have to sail through dangerous oceans and beaches that HE will go where Poseidon won't reach them. And in the song Suffering, the siren states that Scylla's lair is where Poseidon is scared to roam. If that is the case then that is a crazy connection between the songs.
Scylla and Mutiny really show the difference between Odysseus the Man and Odysseus the Monster. Odysseus the Man would have looked for any way to avoid a sacrifice, any way to save his men even if everyone else said it was impossible. He would've tried everything, from fishing to retrieving the corpses of the sirens to find another offering for Scylla so she wouldn't sink the ship. Odysseus the Monster is fine with making sacrifices if it saves more of his men and gets him closer to home. He wasn't thinking of saving people, his mind was on clearing the obstacle, like everyone he thought had been right all along told him. He could let them all die in the ocean or he could save all but six, designating clear targets so Scylla would take her easy pickings and leave the rest be. And although it seems strange that after being so protective, Odysseus would give up six more men, at this point he's beginning to see how his own crew has been an obstacle. They always followed Eurylochus, questioning Odysseus over things beyond his control, and now the person he trusted most on that ship, the link between Ody and his crew, turns out to have betrayed him. They're threats. And monsters don't have mercy when a threat appears.
Scylla is so brilliant, because she’s singing about deep hidden guilt and shame, and it works for both Ody and Eurylochus. Eurylochus is sitting on the shame and guilt about the wind bag, and he’s overcome with guilt and confesses. But all the while, Ody is scheming to sacrifice six men, and feeling guilty about that. So it works both ways.
Lol the lil animatic its so, i loved Somehow I have to ask, when will there be videos on the Open Arms channel? I'll wait and that but I've seen very little in the community on that channel
The interesting thing is Odysseus already knew what he have to do even before arriving at Scylla’s Lair. Remember in Suffering how he reacted to the siren’s answer? “No… but Scylla has a cost.”
My favorite thing that I've noticed is how everything the prophet said is coming true. He was betrayed, etc. I also believe it meant the old odyssius wouldn't survive, but the newer colder one would. That also foreshadowed all of the other soldiers deaths
The entirety of Scylla I kept waiting how long it would take Mortius to notice that a) for a boat to move forward, it needs people rowing the boat, aka there were other survivors besides Ody and Eury (those people were even shown in the animatic) and b) that Odysseus set up the six men with the torches for death 😂 glad it clicked in Mutiny
I think my favorite bit of unspoken acting in the music so far is that when Eury confesses to opening the wind bag, Odysseus just says NOTHING. Does Ody truly not care at this point? Does he forgive him because he knows what he’s about to do? Was telling Eury to light the torches afterwards Ody trying to get him killed in retaliation? It’s so interesting. Also to answer the question of Scylla’s ranking on the divine heirarchy (and by extension her ability to summon a choir,) she was originally a Sea Nymph that was transformed into a monster by Circe. She IS immortal, and Circe outright tells Odysseus “don’t even try, she can’t be killed.” But in terms of her choir, it’s probably her other heads.
As far as I know, prior to Scylla, the last person who died was Elpenor, and there were still 42 men left at the start of Scylla. The Sirens didn’t actually get any of them because they all had wax in their ears. The line about turning his men into snacks was that the siren was focused on singing/trying (and failing) to lure the crew into the water. This is emphasized by the a lot of the lyrics in Different Beast about the sirens not being a threat and how the crew won’t take any suffering from them. The six torches Odysseus says to light at the start of Scylla was to give Scylla six easy targets in exchange for not sinking the entire ship. One for each of Scylla’s monsterous heads. There’s still 36 men left. This explains the whole “we both know what it takes to survive” line because Scylla is saying that Odysseus knows he must sacrifice six men to survive going through her lair.
Oh wait, you realized all of this on your own during Mutiny so there wasn’t much point in mentioning it here. Oh well. I guess I’m just confirming that yes, you were correct when you realized that it was six torches for six heads, and Odysseus literally did give torches to six men to sacrifice those men.
@phoenix_songbird He is included ~ Also definitely need something like the God Games song about animatics:) Mistry ( Thraumatiser (?)); Gigi (Hera) and ext. (My name remembering is bad, so .. I just want everyone to recognise how talented all those people are! Epic really brings the best of art!)
@phoenix_songbird Oh! Sorry, no big spoilers, it's just a song name. Regardless, Tshirt with everyone who made an animatic till full musical realise might be cooool
28:00 good thinking but Jay actually said that it was because Eurylochus was trying to become the captain so the electric guitar is actually him battling for the title of ‘Captain’ with Odysseus hence Eurylochus started using the same instrument as Odysseus
I am personally very glad you split Mutiny. I (at first) expected this episode to be just Scylla because of how Mutiny goes into Tunder Bringer, but the way you split it for a 3 part video series is perfect. All 3 videos will have the songs being used blend perfectly to the following song.
26:38 You probably know this but - what's worse is eurlochus was one of em~ he was one of the lights, but he gave it to someone else to try to save someone else...ALSO YOU CAN HEAR 6 SCREAMS
I made an animation of a clip of this reaction! It’s the bit where he goes: “I have a secret I can no longer keep. What is is eurylochus? MUTINY! STAB!” If you want to see it I posted it on my channel!
13:37 “Scylla is more than mortal” Scylla was a sea nymph that Circe turned into a monster because a mortal she was interested in was actually more interested in Scylla (“I’ve been in love once before”)
I hope he won’t immediately hate Eurylochus I hope he takes time to understand and analysis his actions (Eurylochus is a complex character and i will always love him)
I mean, sure, he's sort of complex given his history with Ody, but Aside from Luck Runs Out pretty much all his advice was if not bad logically, then at least bad morally (Kill random islanders for food. Abandon the men that got pigified). And then the wombo combo of revealing he opened the wind bag and then also killing the cow. Eurylochus's main roles (As I see it) in the story was as a devil on Ody's shoulder, and a troublemaker.
Eurylochus is the villian. SPOILERS: 1) trusted winions over his BROTHER IN LAW + CAPTAIN OF 10 YEARS 2)repeatedly telling the crew they would fail to make it home because of a mistake polities made. 3)OPENED THE WIND BAG WHEN ITHICA WAS IN SIGHT 4)Odysseus's mom killed herself when the bag was opened because she assumed the storm killed her only son. 5)was more than willing to abandon the remaining 42 men at Circes' palace, but tries to kill Odysseus when the ONLY WAY HOME is through a monsters' lair who sinks entire ships without the sacrifice.
@@Ajthingsandsuch Too be fair , the third one was actually a good thing , because if the bag wasn't opened , where would ruthlessness happen again? OH RIGHT! Ithica.
@@FlintsForge6931 Ruthlessness wouldn't have happened had Odysseus not doxed himself like an impulsive idiot. The wind bag wouldn't even have been necessary if Odysseus weren't a loose cannon. In my opinion, Eurylochus's actions in "Mutiny" are heroic. Odysseus would just continue to let his men get killed so he could get back to Ithaca. He had to be stopped.
Another thing I noticed in Mutany with the crew is when they were saying “Eurelicus” and “Odysseus” that was meant to symbolize that some of the crew still believed in Odysseus, except his crew members were much quieter than eurelicus’ crew members
For anyone who was confused by the "Light up six torches" line. Scylla has six heads so you have to sacrifice six people to pass Scylla. Hence, "Scylla has a cost." I noticed Mortius was a bit confused by that and some other people in the comments were so I figured I'd post a quick explanation. There are more crew, they're below deck rowing.
