I've read all the Dune books, and I do love them all. But, Heretics is the one with the most general writing issues. No one seems to have said it yet, but Frank Herbert was dealing with the death of his wife and his own diagnosis with Cancer while writing Heretics and Chapterhouse. I got the distinct vibe that he was racing the clock while trying to finish them. Frank Herbert's original goal was to have two trilogies of books with God Emperor as a bridge between them, but he died shortly after Chapterhouse was published. For those who don't like the Honored Matres... all right. But, Sword of Truth, Wheel of Time and the Drizzt books all have their own rip-offs of the Honored Matres, and they all sold. Also, Highlander the Series named their immortal swordsman "Duncan". Watch the opening of Highlander 2 (Planet Zeist) and it will all start to make sense. The God Emperor is neither Good nor Evil, he just sees everything and has to deal with that.
The Bene Gesserits only have access to memories of their female ancestors. Kwisatz Haderach has access to memories of all ancestors - both male and female. That's why the KH has to be male. That's why someone like Paul (a male Bene Gesserit) is impressive. If, instead of a sisterhood, there was a brotherhood (male equivalent of Bene Gesseit), then a KH would have to be female. There is no misogyny here. The Golden Path is about survival. We have to take Paul and Leto II's word when they say that human species would have gone extinct and in bloody ways if Leto did not take the Golden Path. Basically, we would have killed each other to extinction. That's what their visions and prescience told them. Humanity would fight each other to death. The Golden Path entails a God Emperor who is a totalitarian tyrant and who controls and suffocates humanity for not decades but literally thousands of years. Yes there was enforced peace during Leto II's reign but it stagnated human progress. Humanity had to endure those 3.5 thousand years of stagnation and oppression by a tyrannical God Emperor. Leto II made that sacrifice (yes, it is a sacrifice) by volunteering to play the role of a tyrant. The ultimate tyrant. The purpose was to make humanity so averse to ultimate control by a centralised power that they would never try it again once they were free from the brutal grip of the tyrant God Emperor. Leto II played the ultimate long game. He gave up a normal human life to save humanity from extinction. Also, the Golden Path ensured that human beings innovate. Humans were forced to innovate and develop efficient and reliable alternative method of space travel because they could no longer depend on spice as Leto II was restricting access. The Golden Path includes Leto II's breeding programme which created the genetics of Siona who was immune to prescience. This is key because if there is another Kwisatz Haderach in the future and they become a tyrant like Leto II, Siona's descendants would be able to escape from that tyrant's prescience, thereby ensuring the survival of the human species. The Honored Matres are evil because they enslave men. And yes, they do it through sex. I'm not the biggest fan of the Bene Gesserits because they too like to play the power game, but at least they don't use sex to enslave people. But anyways, the Bene Gesserits are badass characters with immense capabilities and I don't think it's fair to imply that Frank Herbert is a misogynist because he made the Honored Matres reprehensible. I bet you didn't accuse him of misandry because he made the hyper masculine Harkonnens murderous psychopaths.
The bene gessserit do use sex to enslave people, the ones that do are called imprinters. Imprinters have sex with people at a young age so that that person is bonded to them and listens to orders, the difference between them and the Honored Matres being that their control isn't as enslaving. It's really weird, I'm not done with the book but basically they sent an imprinter, Lucilla, at the beginning to "imprint" Duncan Idaho, who's 12 years old, in order to have a better hold over him.
I agree on most of this, I would add: The Bene J work to create the KH (and young Dunkin) as tools for their goals, they "are" in control, not the men. However, uncontrolled variables thwart their plans. The KH and Dunkin are inherently good for humanity except they see the sacrifices humanity needs, or different resolutions than the Bene J schemes. The KH and Leto II and the Bene J are both good and bad, like medicine with bad side effects.
@MaxPaynefan1 I understood the BJ imprinting to be a tool of influence vs slavery like the HM. There is much in the book how the BJ understand the power of imprinting as dangerous and often counter productive.
I just finished Heretics, and I found your video while googling around for other opinions on this book. I honestly don't think there's much you're missing. I'm a huge fan of the first book, and the volumes since that have generally been interesting and enjoyable to read but increasingly less coherent. Reading them is becoming less about revelling in Herbert's characters and world building, and more an exercise in literary completism. I think it's a mistake to assume that Herbert had some incredibly tight overarching plot outline for the series that we are somehow too dumb to understand. What I believe happened is that he wrote Dune, was pleasantly suprised its eventual success, came up with some interesting ideas for the next few books, but along the way slowly lost control of the various contradictions inherent in all these plot lines, and ended up here, with a very patchy rehashing of many of the same tropes we've seen before (and of course some of the same characters, or at least the archetypes or genotypes they derive from).
The idea of the Golden Path is that humanity would spread so far through the universe that some evil power (machines?) could never succeed in killing all of humanity. For this to happen, Leto II kept humanity confined for a long time, such that they after his death, they would spread as far and fast as possible away from his area of control such that there would never be again a God Emperor ruling over all humanity. In the books (this and the following) it is only Duncan Idaho who slowly begins to grasp the extend of the scattering.
I've not read the book yet but my impression of what Frank was trying to say, is that those with power ultimately seem to abuse it, whether they're the KH or not. Power is too much of a temptation. Even what Leto II tried to do caused mizzery and suffering to many people, despite his plan ultimately saving humanity. As to the threat the golden path is supposed to avoid, I believe it is machines. Leto talks about something always present and all you can do is run from it. I think he means machines. Perhaps he also means humans fighting each other to death until there is nothing left but whatever this threat is, I feel it has to come from outside our experience thus far. I believe the other element of the golden path is to ensure humans don't rely on the spice and cannot be manipulated by it in the same way as past generations. As for the turn to control by sex in the latter books, I've heard the writing is fairly terrible in parts and I confess I'm not looking oforward to this. One of the things I loved about the original Dune was that despite the women being so powerful and frankly so kick ass, sex was never used in quite this way. Perhaps a vaigue mention here and there but nothing outright like I've heard it is in these books.
The golden path could be put into two words offered by Leto II. " Enforced Peace " Many of the resultant things like the seemingly misogynist male/female relationships in the book come from the hundreds of generations of cultural transformation to reset the universe. The misogyny you'll encounter is a snapshot of that timeline combined with a snapshot of the individual "races" or genetic bloodlines in the books. Honored matres vs bene Gesserit v imperial bloodlines v trelaxu v ixian machine consciousness etc. The honored matres are hypersexualized said to be trained into that on purpose. The Bene Gesserit also train in sexual power but very differently. More subtle geisha-like skill. Also consider Herbert invented the world start position so it's evolution is based on an iteration of reality that is extremely chaotic seeming to us in our time. The unfolding of the universe doesn't always move in one direction either. (In terms of positive / negative traits) Personally I feel as though the male/female dichotomy going on in Herbert's world is incredibly nuanced. There's like 1000 different lines that comment on gender differences across hundreds of thousands of years in his universe. There's sort of a prequel to all these as well. The machine wars, the butlerian jihad, I forget the other one. But they're very good and explain a lot of things. Blessings to ya! :) Also I think the authors pronunciation of matres is mott reys
The Honoured Matres were considered as evil by the Bene Geserrit, because the Bene Gesserit had the same powers (even better they think) to seduce and control men, but they never used those powers as a means to take power. The Bene Geserrit consider themselves as moral suporior to those Honoured Matres, but in a sense they have been doing the same for ages behind the curtains. But are women who use sex as a means to control women evil in themselves. Maybe Herbert wanted to make a point of this, that women in general feel that they should not use sex as a tool to control men and that in the future there might rise up a group of women that does so. It is not really explained where these Honoured Matres are coming from. If they are from Bene Gesserit from the scatering. It is clear that from the scatering there are all kinds of people back who came from the original groups present in Dune, who have changed in unexpected ways. This even becomes more clear in Chapterhouse: Dune. It is a pity that Frank Herbert never completed his seventh book to tie together all the lines that he has developed in these two last books.
The book series is so full of nuances and hidden meanings that it can be tough to fully understand and read through, I've been there myself. That's part of what makes it so fascinating imo. I shall recommend you the channel @QuinnsIdeas, you will find there all the Dune saga lore deeply analized if you are interested. It may change your perspective regarding the gender power dynamics in the books. Considering that the first book was published in 1965, I believe that the saga is really ahead of its time in that aspect.
Leto II locked the planets down. Remember the Fremen getting soft. Honored Matres were created. Leto II is pushing humans to evolve to be able to block his presence. That's why he lets the their in the begnning of the book escape. If you're still confused these books are usually full of chapters with two people in a room having conversation. They are all just trying to control the fate of the universe.
Wonderful thoughts! I’ve always thought that the Golden Path was to save humanity from extinction, but it was a “terrible path”. All events are caused or occur as a result. It is so interesting to see the events over millenium shift. You will love God Emperor of Dune, and I hope you post about it. The concept of prescience and how he dealt with it was fascinating.
As someone who also just finished Heretics for their first time: AAAAAAAAAA! This one left me beyond bewildered and I really had a hard time stomaching the feeling that frank in his later years just threw away so much potential with this strange misogyny and sexual fixations. It’s one thing to include sex as a plot device - and in some ways I do enjoy the clever inclusion of all the past Idaho Gholas’ sexual prowess finally culminating into one moment that may well have saved the galaxy - but to fixate on it in this degrading, not to mention heteronormative manner is a disappointment. I want the last book to somehow fix this for me but I think at this point it’s largely an “I’ve made it this far” attitude keeping me going. All in all I think Frank was a great writer and I love the weird and the tippy and the “aha!” moments, but in this book, they are unfortunately diluted with “wtf?” moments. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say on #6. Keep up the good work and see you on the other side ✌🏼
First off, there is seriously NO way anyone can understand this book without serious community help (book club, reddit, RU-vid, fan sites, etc). I'm pretty sure everyone feels like you the first read through of Heretics. I was so lost. Second, to try to answer your Q at 3:42 (moreso referencing God Emperor of Dune), Leto II is basically the coolest character ever. He is actually good even though so few people in this universe ever truly recognize what he did. And he knew no one would understand. He did what his father couldn't because Paul was too selfish. He single handedly saved mankind and suffered for 3,500 years to do it. Even afterward, he still lived for thousands more years as a tiny consciousness inside the worms! All to save humanity from destruction AND help people understand the value of freedom. He was "The Tyrant", the "predator" in his words, the necessary evil required to help humanity become its best. The Golden path is a path of freedom across the known universe.
Sorry if I’m late to the party, but here was my interpretation: Women are naturally better at handling their passed down memories. There is a reason why the sisterhood is all women. However, they cannot access memories from their male ancestors. A quizat haderach could access these missing memories, however by men’s primal nature, they would cause destruction and hurt the sisterhood and therefore humanity as a whole. Their goal was to create a haderach and keep him on a leash and control him. After Paul, they realized controlling one was just not possible and not worth the risk. It does put a dividing line between men and women, yes, but it I took it as Frank Herbert saying that women were better to hold this kind of power than men were. I hope this helps.
Also I think you are on target with how prescience works. Often the books talk about how those who have prescience are, “locked” into a future and become trapped. I don’t think Frank gives a blunt answer, but from what I’ve read, how you explained it is what he was hinting at.
I think the one possible way that only a male "kwizats haderach" can see through male ancestors and women cann't is just the xx chromosomes and xy chromosomes you figure out the rest, the point is that humanity will keep doing the same stuff if in the most simple thing like sex enslavement to things complicated like gholas, no machines and butliruan jihad and then machines are back, things gone wrong and other gone wrong too but for some right reason, it's what we do as humans in the vast reality, actually it all reflects on our reality here but symbolized and so, humanity will be the reason for their extinction it should be according to what happens Letto II took 3500 yrs of tyrannical ruling so not a 10 year ruling tyrant be accepted, the corrupt core in the bigger seen that all the other small stuff are gathering together so by the end it leads to the extinction of human being, which isn't wanted as survival instincts imply 'cause we're all life forms that in one way or another trying to survive
The male bene gesserit are supposed to be special in that the female reverend mothers can only see through the lives of their female ancestors but the male reverend mothers can see through both their male and female ancestors and they have like absolute prescience and stuff. Why Frank chose to do this is that I assume he just had some ideas behind writing an all female group or something, idk. Great video though, I love hearing people like you ramble about books and I feel like I’m not alone in a few things I missed from these novels. I haven’t read past the 4th book so I don’t know how to explain the contents of this book to you other than I think Frank got too horny with these last two novels and was completely out of his cage with this one even though he’s a good writer.
I've heard somewhere that the explanation as to why the Kwizatz Haderach has to be a male is due to the XY chromosome. Female with XX chromosomes can only relate to their female line. It's the mutation of the Y chromosome that allows the male to reach through his male ancestry.
From my understanding the reason the Kwisatz Haderach is a male is because males possess an X and Y chromosome. Where as women only have X chromosomes. This allows males to look into both male and female memory and not be repulsed. The Bene Geesserit train women to be able to handle the flood of memory and emotion of past memory. The men are left to alone to figure it out and what it means. ( you know Big Boys Don't Cry and all that nonsense) It kind of sucks to be a Kwisatz Haderach. You're doomed to a life time of loneliness, self loathing and yet everyone wants you to be everything except who you are. It is especially bad when you have no teachers and no peers to share you deepest sorrows. If this sounds familiar....it should. Think of a heterosexual man you've known who was brilliant but closed off, incredibly sensitive and not vunderable in any way. That is a lonely existance and a lot to endure for any being.
