Ok, so terminology is different as I’m a licensed Electrician in both Australia and UK. But the first 3 way and the dead end 3 way is generally what we would use… the dead end is wired slightly differently but the principle is the same. Enjoying your vids and the different words we use.
Would you mind recommending some electrical channels similar to this from one of those countries? I'm interested on learning more about how things are wired in a 240v system.
Thank you man. I’m in vocation school right now and was really stumped on the dead end. My instructor kinda just told me to figure it out as he sees it as a better alternative of learning as hik showing us.
Here's a future video idea: How to do a re-wire or replace a home-run most efficiently with minimum amount of drywall damage. Any tips and tricks you've learned over the years that would be helpful to new guys getting into the field. Thanks.
Depends on what is above or below and where you can fish from. Sometimes you have to go up over and down. I worked in a split level that had the walls been open would take 50 ft of wire from the panel to new AC. Because we had to drill and fish up over and down it took almost a full roll of 10/3 NM
I can tell you that re-wiring without opening the walls uses a whole lot more wire. You can't do it efficiently without opening up walls. If you don't open walls you use lots of junction boxes in the basement and attic, and a lot of dead end runs. But that is the trade off for not damaging original plaster in an 1890 house. First floor isn't as bad if you have a basement, not nearly as much wasted wire going from underneath to wall outlets. Going up to the attic, then dropping down the wall for each receptacle on the second floor burns through wire pretty quick though.
One easy way if troubleshooting a 3-way on a service call and KNOW it is the issue…..undo all wires and rewire; find easier then trying to spend the time searching and looking and testing everything (and yeah, might end up doing anyway), but undoing all the wiring and doing over tends to be fastest and able to “see” what’s happening, imo. Everyone does service calls diff, so, this might work great for me etc…so, everyone has there techniques and steps for dealing with troubleshooting service calls😉 Cheers✌🏻
@@Aepek When you say undo all the wires and re-wire, do you mean re landing the correct wires where they're actually supposed to go? I'm a little confused about what you mean here.
The Code Time segment really sets this channel apart. I feel your channel is very underrated and want to say thank you for inspiring me in part to persue this career!
Sending this to my Father-in-Law. The previous owner of his place had some hack install a "three way" circuit in the living room, one switch at the front door and one at the kitchen. Unfortunately, it's only 14/2 throughout and uses single-throw switches. Dude got it right in that both switches WILL turn the light off... but if you turn it off at the front door, the kitchen switch won't work. If you turn it off at the kitchen, then the front door doesn't work. The hack just put two switches in series, then installed a ceiling fan with a pull switch, which is what my in-laws end up using. It pains me greatly and I end up walking around in the dark rather than dick with it. I'm dreading replacing that mess because my Father-in-Law thinks the attic is unsafe and hasn't agreed to let me look at it yet.
Totally thought this was gonna be another repeat video. BUT It wasn't that's awesome because I didn't know about the Chicago 3 ways or the Cali 3 way really except that Kelly 3 ways were dead in 3 ways as well. Thanks for the knowledge dude and nice animations.
Can I double thumb up this vid? It took me an hour to figure out a repair on a dead end threeway last month. One of the switches had died, but seeing that hot neutral in the light box with no ID tape on it left me so confused until I drew it out on the table. Your video makes it so clear so quickly. Great info!
I have a 3 way in my basement with three 3 way switches, no clue how it works, I tried to adjust it and it stopped working, I undid my work and just left it as it was...
@@Bremend u can’t mix up the pairs or else the lights won’t go on and off as supposed to. Either tone the wires to find the right pairs or call an electrician
Actually that is exactly how you build a four,five,six, etc. switching . First three way chooses A or B path , Final switch Chooses A or B . ALL the four ways in between simply reverse A & B in to A&B out or B&A out . All the 'reversing' the traveler switches are in the middle . This allows for each and every switch to be an on/off switch.
@@Bremend So two of the three actually are a three way t(hat act like a three way ) powers the third three way . If you turn off the last (third)three way AND then switch one of the first two nothing happens AND you have to turn on the last and one of the first two to turn the light back on .(my Dad did this in a basement , drove me nuts)
What about the 3 wire going from switch to light and them N from light to switch? I wired homes like that for years. It saves you time and wire. The powered side is used for the neutral and the dead man side is legged. Any thoughts on that one. I’ve also come across a legged 4 way a few times
There is one other strange type of three-way switch wiring that you did not mention but I don’t know the name. It involves connecting all three terminals of a 3-way switch to the same three terminals of the other 3-way switch. Then the two travelers are tapped as a single-pole. If you draw it out you’ll find it works.
That sounds like a 3 way switch loop where the power goes to the ceiling first and comes down from the light via a 2 conductor wire to one of the switches. A three conductor wire goes between the two three way switches with each screw on one switch sharing a wire with the same screw on the other. Then the two conductors coming down from the light are connected with wire nuts to the travelers, one conductor to one and the other to the other.
An old electrician who wired many California three way circuits explained it to me like this. On a three way switch you have a common and two throws, not a common and two travelers. The wires are travelers not the terminals. A traveler is a wire that connects two switches together and no matter how many boxes that wire goes through nothing else gets connected to it. A conventional three way (straight, loop, dead end) has two travelers. A California has one traveler between the commons, nothing else is connected to that wire. While the throws are wired together too, those conductors are not travelers because in every box they go through, one is a hot and the other is a switch leg. In a Carter there is no traveler. Each switch gets hot and neutral on its throws and the lamp is wired between the commons. It’s illegal because it can break the neutral leaving both sides of the lamp shell hot, with the lamp being off. The benefit of the California is when a three way is needed to control a string of lights, it saves a conductor in the run compared to a conventional three way. It’s totally legal under 404.2 because it only breaks the hot. Save yourself some wire, use the California when you have multiple loads on a three way.
I've got a question for you - was helping someone with some issues at the house they bought (switches not working, turned out someone miswired or mixed 3-way wiring styles) and the thing that seemed strange to me is all the earth-ground wires were cut off flush with the jacket of the romex. Also the older switches didn't have anywhere to connect a ground wire to. Ever run into that before? Was there a time when the ground wires were normally cut off or is that an odd situation? I'm wondering how you would then add something that has a ground such as adding an additional light from the switch without ripping walls out to rerun all the romex?
Good info. I never knew what to call the other 3 way configurations. On the dead end 3 way, and most switches using a white as a hot, I was taught “Out on white, back on black”. I guess that’s not standard practice?
I've been looking all over RU-vid and I cant find anything about using single pole switches for 3 way switching (effectively, using 2 single pole switches at opposite ends of a room to control a light). is this something you can cover for me? also your code time segment is informative. (I live in Michigan btw) might I suggest you do a code time compilation or playlist?
Dude, thank you SO much for this! The way you've animated this, and how you've illustrated the connections are SO helpful. The physical connections and interactions between the components are what I have struggled with, and this helps me visualize it better than I ever have. More, please!
When I was a kid, my father replaced a 3-way switch, and as soon as we flipped the switch, it blew the fuse! Huh? Well, it was (as I now know) a Carter 3-way, and the replacement switch was a mercury switch, and flipping the switch momentarily connected all three terminals, shorting the power, and blowing the fuse! Minneapolis, not too far from Chicago :)
I was going nuts trying to figure out how to replace a three way switch setup in my house. It didn’t make sense looking at how the existing wiring was. Until I found this video! apparently it was a “cali” three-way. Thanks!
im surprised you didnt show the reverse 3way with the power n sw leg from the ceiling outlet down to sws. that used to fuck up a lotta elects, during "trouble" shooting !!
basically, if you are running Romex, then the neutral needs to be in the outlet box. If it's EMT, and you can add it later then you don't have to run it; it can be added later if it's needed. This is basically why, in Oklahoma, they stopped letting us use the white wire to send a switch leg to the other 3 way and mark it with some red tape to identify it as hot. As an apprentice in open shop, I worked with a Journeyman that liked to use the white wire in a 12/3 to send the switch leg to the other side. He argued it uses less wire and saved on overhead. People were calling that a California 3 way for years until we had an electrician from California come along and tell some people that this wasn't a California 3 way. This is the first time I ever seen someone describe a California 3 way, and it is definitely different from what Journey were calling one back then. I have never seen the Carter 3 way but that looks kind of sketchy! I wonder who dreamed that up?
Very Cool and detaied information i appricciate it. the dead end method you showed at the end of the video looks like the one i used before I once did a 3 way setup to control some recessed lights in my bedroom to control from 2 spots.😎
Not only can a Carter three way make both sides of the bulb socket hot when the light is off, but in that state it broke the neutral. Never install a switch that breaks the neutral. It was made illegal in 1923, one hundred years ago.
While it WAS illegal since 1923, Carter 3 way has definitely been used for many years afterwards, especially on farms when a yardlight is switched from the house and barn, with constant power on both ends using three wires. I actually ran across this on a farm three years ago, single wire from house and barn to a light on a pole. House was built c. 1910, but didn't get electricity until 1947, according to the farmer.
im a journeyman electrician , i know this stuff but for some reason i cannot stop watching your videos, thank you for the videos your doing keep up the great work
IS NEC certified same as Journeyman? Taking exam at your local village or other local jurisdiction but it just states licensed electrical contractor not journeyman. So journeyman is specifically for union electricians?
@@vlad1889 Nope, where I live there is 4 classes of electricians, licensed by our state, union or not. Class A: Master Class B: Journeyman Class C: Systems Contractor Class D: Systems Technician I currently hold a Class A and B licenses, since for some reason your not actually allowed to do electrical work with s Class A. Weird huh?
Sure helps a remodel guy understand why I see what I see on these older houses. Constantly seeing different variations of these, and it makes me think no one before 1990 knew how to wire anything. Turns out they were just super creative, and a little bad at labeling their creations.
Yo dustin I'd love to see a Code Myths video! Most recently I've debated 1. Connecting all grounds in a junction box (even when there's 2 different sized circuits) and 2. Running romex through EMT
Fairly certain both is wrong....I never tie my grounds together from different circuits out in the field. Even if it's not code I could see it being code eventually. Obviously I'm referring to houses and not your commercial environment with conduit and such. I just like the idea of having everything separate. Easier to diag on the future
@@anthonysmith9410 that would be a bitch to pull😂😂 we have pulled romex thru 2” emt that was stubbed out of panels before but screw pulling romex in emt for over 2’
Oh, this (sharing grounds) is one we should talk about. You can't share neutrals but I don't see why one can't share a ground. So, pulling two circuits from the same panel through conduit, do you guys pull two separate insulated ground wires even though they go to the same place at either end? They all attach to the junction box anyway, and one circuit blows at a time. It seems a waste....
try living on the east coast especially New england where K&T is still widely present i ran into a cple of times. now word is out to call me when modern bulbs are burning up or just not working lol (im not a professional or licensed but i get a lot of calls from some asking to dble chk for a carter system lol
It's so funny looking back to when I was new and having a hard time understanding three ways. Most people are so fucking awful at explaining it. Once I realized it's literally just hot down to the first and switch leg and travelers to the second, boom done, it became super simple. Everyone tries to draw out the line segments with the X's crossing and shit and it just makes it so much more complicated than it has to be. It's almost like they'd rather you not get it and make it hard just to fuck with you cuz they don't think you're ready to start doing it
I have a situation at my home I discovered on a 3-way switch that has only 2 wires running between the switches for the switch legs. Power comes in from one of the switches but the neutral is picked up at the other switch which is using the common neutral for the third leg. Is this code?
I have come across another version of the dead end 3way where the power (via 14/2) was coming in to the ceiling jbox .running from their to each 3way switch was a 14/3. The neutral from the supply directly hooked to fixture ,the hot from supply to one white 14/3 , the other white 14/3 to the fixture hot, and both travelers capped together in ceiling j-box.
Most of the 3-way switches in my house are like this, which means you cannot install a smart-switch that requires a neutral. One solution I found was to install a smart-relay in the light fixture box. The problem with that is if you have to press the smart-relay reset button, you have to remove the light fixture to get to it. Does anybody have an acceptable way to use the existing wires, repurpose them in some way, so a smart-switch can be installed?
@@jackallen3994 It sounds like it’s time to replace the 3-wire with a 4-wire at the “hot” location. If you can’t attach a 4-wire to the 3-wire and pull through, well, I’ve learned from experience that they make drywall and mud everyday 🤪
I always called this Cali 3 way, except red and whites pass through light box as Travelers and 1 black is hot, the other black is switch leg. Same thing just different color travelers.
Wired up a huge house that had 5 seperate doors leading in the place. Had several hallways that criss crossed another hallway. Had at least 14 three way switches and maybe 6 four way switches. Sparky working with me never wired in a 4 way switch and screwed up wiring them. As long as you are using 2 NM cables for each 3 or 4 way very easy to wire them. Liked to put a piece of black tape on wire that feed switches.
Hey bro love your content just an FYI 200.6(E) (exc) allows you to re-identify a white conductor as long as it's part of a cable assembly. You do correctly interpret 404.2(C) keep up the good work!
BINGO!! It was a "Chicago 3-way" design. While merely replacing an old 1920s porcelain 3-way in a friend's 1905 house, I blew 4 Edison base fuses. What the...? So, I had to run a wire from a water pipe to determine what wires were hots or neutrals using my Wiggy. Yes, there was a neutral (!!??) on the switch. NOW I KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE. "Chicago 3-way." Thank you so much for this tutorial. Neither of those systems was taught in my apprenticeship.
You just solved a 29-year mystery in my world. It was that long ago that I was unable to figure out the wiring of a 3-way switched light in an old house retrofit with K&T (had been gas lit) that had then been plastered-over. For the love of God nor money could I figure this thing out. Of course, I could not see the wiring paths behind the walls and all wires were the same color black. It was, I see now, a Chicago/Carter method. Thank you.
Hey Dustin, one thing you mentioned parenthetically was the dubious use of #6 and smaller white conductor used instead as an ungrounded circuit conductor, and that doing so was not compliant, but that most AHJs would not cite this as a violation. Just a reminder that cable assemblies are discussed in Article 200.6 and even white wires #6 and smaller may be re-purposed as ungrounded circuit conductors by way of phase tape or other effective means. For cable assemblies, there is no code violation.
Love your video and have come back several times to watch the variations. One variation of the three-way switch I’m having a really hard time finding is one where the power comes into the switchbox, and then both the three wire to the other switch, and the two wire to the lights come out of that same box. Might be a great video for someone as I can’t find it anywhere
What you're describing is the dead end three way, actually a commonly used variation. Technically still a code compliant 3-way since the box with the incoming power has an available neutral. Especially useful in renovations where you need to convert a single pole switch into a pair of 3 ways with minimal work.
When it comes to neutrals for switches, just do it. You never know where a property owner in the future is going to put the switch with the required neutral.
I run into the Dead End 3 way all the time. I've seen Electricians use black sharpies to turn the white conductor into a Hot. Makes my job a little harder when a customer wants a smart switch at the end that has the Dead End. You would be surprised how pissed off a customer can get if they can't get a smart switch in a certain location even though it can be in another location controlling the same light fixture. Granted there are smart switches that doesn't require a Neutral but my warehouse manager can only order from so many places such as Systems Depot, ADI and 21st Century Dist. They typically carry Z-Wave Jasco / GE switches and dimmers that require a Neutral. Came across a Chicago 3 way in a modern house once. It was an addition the customer built to be a Theater Room. The customer also wired it. Knew he wasn't that smart since the Wall outlets were randomly wired with Hot and Neutral mixed, customer told me "It's AC, it doesn't matter, doesn't have a polarity." Needless to say I raised the Red Flag to the boss and the customer didn't get his theater room.
Customer is right about polarity, but needs an education about hot and neutral. Good thing he didn't look too hard into his breaker panel and see that his neutral and ground are strapped together in there... LOL Poor guy
One thing people don't take about is the three hot feeds. In 9 grade electrical and Electronics class we had to feed the hot at the switch, then at the light and finally at the opposite switch. We also installed the four way switch . Another can of worms is to know the difference between a four way switch and a double pole switch they are NOT the same. I had to change out one switch because some electrician used a double pole switch instead of a four way switch. 73
So the only difference I'm seeing in your diagrams regarding typical and dead end is that you have to reidentify the white to have the potential to be hot on a dead end. Also the SL is nutted in the line side box of the circuit. And since you brought up the code exception to a neutral in multi-location switches ie. 3way 4way is the recolor coding the only thing that stops dead ends from being legal? Your "typical setup" doesn't carry line through the second switch location unlike the Carter and Cali. Just curious what the specifics are on the unapproved dead end practice.
I only see this NEC 2020 "neutral at switch boxes" applying to completely new switch circuits as in a rewire or new construction. As a practice, I try to always (especially in residential) have my switch legs go up to a fixture outlet from a wired switch box rather than than down. and this practice was influenced from my early electrical maintenance days (mostly service work), whereas I hated having to fool with a light fixture to troubleshoot a problem such as bad splices. Another great video for sure...
My newly constructed house (in 2022) had two dead-end three-ways in it, except that the hot side was at the dead end in both cases. To install smart switches, I had to flip the hot and leg sides so that the hot side was in the same box as the neutral wire.
If you want more than 3 switches for 1 light (let's say in the staircase of an apartment building), just use a relay in the breaker panel with a push button circuit as switches. Standard practice in Germany. :D
Interesting, turns out I’ve always done dead end three ways. Interesting to learn there are multiple other ways to do it. I think I’ll start having neutral in the box. Never really saw the need for it, I’m running switches never thought of someone retro installing another plug our a dimmer. In a three and four way circuit, I’ve alway just gone from the panel to the light and leave the neutral there, no switch box has a neutral.
Neutral in switch boxes are really helpful when you have a smart switch that pulls a load without having to steal a neutral reference from ground (Code NoNo)
I hadn't actually seen a "dead-end" three-way before... I'd just run it as a normal switch leg with an extra conductor, making all the connections at the lamp.
@@Dje4321 The thing about smart switches is that dead ends actually work with them. Most smart three ways require that the other switch be replaced as well or only care if they have a signal. So, you re-wire the dead end to be Hot, Neutral, Remote switch signal.
I've seen on switches where they put the neutral to the terminal on a switch so when they turn the switch off it " breaks" the neutral as we say. Goes without saying why that's not a good way to do things anymore lol
That was common with knob and tube systems, as typically the wires were not color coded, like white for neutral or black for hot, they were usually both black, or sometimes in later knob and tube systems like in the 30s and 40s, the neutral might be black with some white stripes, or bleached cloth insulation so as to be lighter color than the hot. But, 80 something years later seldom do you find such systems free from molestation, particularly in overhead fixtures with oversized incandescent bulbs, or basements where it's all to common to extend the circuit by tapping off the older conductors with romex.
@@Sparky-ww5re yeah I've seen in attics where it's nob and tube running through it. It's crazy to look at. Literally just bare wires running around up there with what you could essentially call butt splices. Its baffling that shit hasn't burned down more buildings. But no the switch I was talking about was just regular ole awg in a pipe
Perfect! The dead-end 3-way is just what I had been searching for. I want to convert a switch inside the attached garage into a 3-way with the second switch on the other side of the wall that has a pilot light so I can tell if the garage light is on or not without opening the door. Wiring the pilot into the dead-end shouldn't be a problem? Thanks for the video.
I went to a vocational high school, in my electrical class, 1972-1975, we were taught the “Chicago hook Up” for some 3 way installs….how wrong this was!……46 years later I have repaired so many of these screw ups!…..the California hook up is excepted…there is no violation about this, as long as you identify the white conductor as a non neutral
I like to use an odd color for that so it stands out more. Never use red or especially black. Blue yellow or orange is my personal preference. Are you still allowed to do this? Thought I heard that you can't?
@@markchidester6239 according to the CEC it should not be done in new construction however servicing pre existing wiring can be done this way if it was already like that
@@anthonysmith9410 Canadian electrical code, up to new standards there shall be a neutral readily available at every switch location. So in the case of power being brought to the light instead of the switch, you must run a 3 conductor cable (black red white) from ur light to the switch
Hey Dustin. As a Canadian studying the electrical trade in our code books (CEC 2018 24th edition) Section 4-022-2 states that a Neutral conductor is required in every switch box. It reads as "The identified conductor shall be installed at each location of a manual or automatic control device for the control of permanently installed luminaires at a branch circuit outlet."
Could you please shed some light on residential dimmer switches.... I have been charged with programming the new dimmers -the ones that need a neutral conductor. The device features an setting toggle for "F" (forward) phase/"R" (reverse) phase, and a programming button. Tech support told me that the "program" button cycles through twelve "trim" settings. Sometimes they self program -sometimes not.
Hey man I barely started electrician classes had a quick question! Does it matter the color of cables to use to determine what is hot or what is neutral? Had trouble doing it the first and tbh I was pretty confused especially since I never had electrician experience any good tips you can recommend?
Code doesn’t quite specify anything for ungrounded conductors, or hots, other than for more than nominal voltage system. It does, however, get VERY specific about neutrals and grounds. I would check out 210.5
With DC SELV power there is a way of doing this that requires only two wires between the source & first switch , and second (remote) switch and load. The first switch is what you refer to as a "4 way", but is also called in "intermediate switch" - what they really are though is reversing switches. So it will simply reverse where the +ve and -ve poles appear on the travellers. Then at the remote end one terminal of the lamp is connected to one of the travellers and the other is connected to the common of a three way switch (SPDT in panel switch nomenclature) the other terminals are both connected to the other traveller, but through diodes, that are reverse polarity to each other. When the polarity of the current in the travellers matches the diode leg that is switched to the lamp it will light. If the other diode is selected it will block the current and the lamp will remain off. This of course means you need to use a lamp that is not polarity sensitive, such as an incandescent bulb, but generally MR-16 base LED lamps already have rectification built into them. Alternately, you could use a second intermediate switch at the remote end, then just one diode would be required (but on the lamp side of the switch) and the current would always flow in the same direction through the load. This setup also allows a permanent source of power at the remote end from across the travellers. Of course they will reverse polarity as the intermediate switch is operated at the source end, but if this is an issue for the load a bridge rectifier can be added. The switch at the source naturally needs to be rated for the current of both the lamp and the extra load.
Thank you Dustin! I'm just a DIYer but had a situation where I had a misbehaving 3 way setup. Turned out to be a miswired dead end 3 way. I suspect it has never worked correctly for the 10 years since the house was built.
I just checked the NEC Handbook (2017), Article 200.7(C)(1). Another commentor is correct. For cables (MC, Romex), the white wire can be used and re-identified as ungrounded, if a switch supply or traveler in a single pole 3-way / 4-way switch loop, but not a switch leg. Interestingly, it doesn't prohibit all switch legs from being white wire (from a cable). Some people will say the switch leg should never be white, but that's not in the code (2017).
Also the white wire can be used and re-identified as a hot, when used to power a straight 240V load, such as a water heater, baseboard heater, or a NEMA 6-20R typically used for larger window AC units and larger electric heaters.
Me putting in smart switches and such... PLEASE DO IT!!!!!! Only have it on one location works. Because on a smart Zwave switch, the remote switch is just the switch leg, no other power, just the red wire to make the traveler and it is used as low voltage at that point.
OK another see if you can follow me a 12-2 into a sw box the same box has a 12-3 out to a light then from another sw box you have a 12-3 to the light make the connections in the light box - by joining the travelers , the first sw box has a neutral and white in the 2dn sw box gets reidentified black Done
I encountered this Cali 3-way crap on my 70s house in the Dallas area. They apparantly didn't want to spring for 12/3 cable, so they used 12/2 everywhere. Tied to a separate circuit's neutral & that's how I discovered it. Had the hallway circuit on for extra light, while working on a bedroom circuit--breaker switched off and confirmed. Unwired the neutral bundle in the bedroom switch box and got bit & hallway light turned off. Go switch off that circuit and open up the hallway boxes to find this mess. So my simple bedroom switch replacement turned into a run to the hardware store to buy some 12/3 and fix that crap. I checked the other 3-way setup for the garage & yep, same crap.
I have this same setup in my early '80s house in the Houston area. They actually daisy chained the separate circuit's neutral so that the outside light hot used the kitchen neutral, the kitchen hot used the dining room neutral, and the dining room hot used the stairway neutral. Is this just a version of the California 3-way, or would this qualify as a different type of setup?
Two year helper here, boss's son has "ten-thirteen years experience". It's amazing how well he cites code to explain something and be absolutely wrong. Not just wrong, but like holy hell I'd be so screwed if I listened to you wrong. Destroyed equipment wrong, it's actually astounding. He's convinced himself of absolute absurdities and he's trying to teach them to me, only to be stopped dead in his tracks and told to shut up
On those old Carter setups, did they run single conductor from the load or did they run Romex and just cap off a line in the box? Like what would I look for to know that it's wired Chicago style? I mean I can work out how to test it, but are there any tells that might lead me to testing for it sooner than later? Obviously age and location can help, but I mean by observing the system ... anyways you get the idea.
It would depend on who did the work, what they were taught, and what you have seen before in your career. Also geographical location. Some places just do weird stuff.
So basically, if I'm diagnosing a switch, I have two indicators that can give me an idea that I might be looking at a carter... the switch device is a three-way but on a is set up on 2-wire, or the fixture has voltage refrenced to ground when off (if I'm luckey enough to have a ground wile being unlucky enough to run into a Chicago 3-way) but if I have no refrence at the fixture side other than hot and neutral, or if the sw-leg 3-way is burried and the line 3-way has had the device swapped for a standard switch by the home-owner who forgot to mention that as it happened years ago... (the actual situatuation I was facing back when I wrote that.)
“404.2 Switch Connections (A) Three-Way and Four-Way Switches. Three-way and four-way switches shall be wired so that all switching is done in the ungrounded circuit conductor.” What the code says here is that the Carter three way is illegal because it breaks the neutral. Yes is says it without saying it!
I have wired a bunch with traditional and dead end methods. Probably more dead end cause that’s how this old bastard learned. One method that you didn’t cover is when feed comes into the fixture. Grounded conductor stays in fixture. I use 14/2 to drop down to a three way switch. Then run 14/3 over to the other 3way similar to the dead end. It’s basically a 3 way switch leg. I use this method when all my lighting branch circuits run through the attic and controlling multiple fixtures with a 3 way. Up in the attic just have to run 14/2 to all the fixtures from the original feed point. Don’t use it often but in some situations it’s the best way to use the least amount of wire. Seems I use this on remodels where adding 3 ways to old work. Once the AHJ adopts 2020 code I will have to retrain my brain. Only came across California method in one neighborhood built in the late 60s, fckd me up for a minute till I figured out what was going on. Fortunately haven’t seen any Chicago style but I try to avoid the old prewar stuff in the city.
Liked the video. I get so many calls especially from one handy man friend that he’s removed a switch and can’t remember what he did. As you know it’s not easy trying to help him figure out what he’s done if there are multiple switches at the same location. Going to refer him here for the future. Anyway is a 3 way really a 3 way and is a 4 way really a 4 way??? A 3 way has a common terminal (let’s for simplicity say an input) and two other terminals which dependent on switch position are in connection with the common, throw the switch and those connections change. 1 way or the 2nd way, thus 2 ways. No matter how you bring power in it can only leave 1 of 2 ways. Same for a 4 way, power is always coming in on one terminal of two and leaving on one of two others on the opposing side, 3 1/2 way maybe?. Lol just messing. Using the amount of terminals as the WAYS doesn’t work, otherwise a 1way should be a 2way Being a euro trained spark living in the US for over 20yrs I’ve messed with a lot of my colleagues over the years. Typically we call a 3way a 2way and a 4way an intermediate (it intermediately intersects the travelers). I’d be interested to hear other thoughts on how switches got the names we use. Keep up the interesting lectures 👌👍
Ok, this might seem like a dumb question and you might have mentioned it. In the first example, how would you run the ground? I've seen two ways. Coming from the panel, bypass the outlet and switch, straight to the fixture, then from the second switch to the fixture. Basically just one continuous wire from the panel to the fixture, grabbing a tail from the second switch. The second way I've seen is from the panel meeting up with a tail from the outlet and each switch then up to the fixture. So basically grounding everything along the way to the fixture. I hope that all makes sense.
THIS was exactly what I was looking for! We recently did a simple switch disconnect/reconnect but I was trying to wire the traditional way but as it turns out, we were dealing with a Dead End 3-way. totally confused me. We did finally figure it out but this explains so well why 99% of 3-way wiring videos out there do not show dead end wiring. THANKS! I needed this!
I know of another type of "3-way" switch. A smart switch (Alexa- or Google Home- capable, for example -- also, some dimming 3-ways) uses the three wires as 1) Hot 2) Ground and lastly 3)"data/communication". I was baffled until I finally got it right. Then I realized what was happening. Both switches need to be "on" to respond, so a hot and ground are needed. But the switches also need to know what the other one is doing, therefore one of the wires is used for communication.
Also, many of those AC powered smart devices draw 1 or more Watts of standby power, 24-7. May not seem like a big deal but when every GFCI, AFCI, wifi switch, remote switch, motion sensor, dusk dawn sensor, microwave, toaster oven, washing machine, dryer etc etc are smart, you get a sizable phantom load even when all the devices are off.
Dustin I need your help. I believe I have a dead end 3 way in my kitchen (house built in 1952) I am putting a light fixture and dimmer in my living room. I put the dimmer on the opposite side of the wall where my kitchen light switch is (suspected dead end 3 way with no neutral wire). So I want to run power from the dead end switch to the dimmer. My 2 problems are 1. I'm having a hard time finding out which is power and 2. since there is no neutral in the dead end box where do I tie the neutral from the new light? I understand you are a busy person so I'm hoping you can help me. Love your videos and your channel! You have taught me so much and gave me the confidence to tackle these jobs on my own as I can not afford to call an electrician out. Thank you
I use red & wht as travelers in a 3way so the blk is the leg. I have also had a feed at switch A with a 3wire going to the light and a 3wire from the liight to switch B. The wht in switch A is neut and blk & red travelers. Switch B red & wht are travelers and blk is switch leg. I served my apprenticeship in the early 80's in NJ
If anyone knows how to use smart switches in a dead-end 3-way setup, I'd love to know. AFAIK there is no way to do it to Code without tearing up the walls.
Hello and thank you for your videos , very solid. I have a question, how can I add a receptacle to a 3 way switch in my house if I don’t know where is the hot or the leg. Can I add a receptacle in any side of the 3 way? So far I added the receptacle, but works with only one switch…. If I flip one of the switches, it will turn on or off the receptacle. How can I identify the leg or the hot?
Many years ago, before neutrals required in boxes, a couple country boys were wiring rows of fluorescent lights with 3-ways. They took power to the first light and from that point used only 2 conductor NM cable. It took me a while to figure out how they did it. Legal? As far as I can tell, it met all NEC requirements and could also put a neutral at both boxes.
On the Cali 3 way, hot needs to come into the left switch at one of the other two terminals. Bringing it into the middle point of he switch gives the left switch total control over the current supply to the bulb.
UK we call it 2 way switch, intermediate switch for adding extra. We don't mix lighting & sockets. Lived in US still mix up terminology & get some odd looks.
Is it common for 3way switches to "leak" voltage to the terminal? For instance, I came across a 3 way for an outside light. You could turn it off or on from the garage or the front door. With the switches in the off position, I was still getting 30 to 40 volts at the light. I had another situation where a lighted 3 way cycles the LED bulb in a ceiling fan. There's not enough to keep the LED on but enough to cycle them for split second.
Running wires in parallel (like the red, black, white, & ground conductors in 14-3 cable), produces induced current in the non-powered wires adjacent to the powered one. This is why low-voltage wiring (Ethernet, CATV, CCTV, Etc.) should always be run a minimum of 6" (15 cm) away from 120v/240v wiring when run in parallel, 3" (7½ cm) when crossing at 90°. Minimum separation. However, I typically only see about 2v on my DMM on the non-powered conductors. If you are seeing 30 - 40 volts, you may have wires with damaged conductors or a damaged switch. That much voltage on non-powered wires is outside what I would consider to be normal. You might have a nail/screw through a wire or some other fault. As an example, a friend of mine's mom had her roof replaced in the Fall/Autumn here in Texas. She didn't use her A/C until well into the Spring, several months later. A/C didn't work. An A/C company was called out and (maybe not the best job of troubleshooting) after replacing the condenser unit and the evaporator/air handler, they discovered that a roofing nail had penetrated one of the refrigerant lines between the condenser and air handler. The old unit was running R-22 and the new one is using R-134a or R-410a (R or HFC). Not too upset since a newer, more efficient system with a less environmentally dangerous refrigerant was installed. You've got to put in the elbow grease and diagnose and verify everything, and never assume that any part of the system is good (even if it just came from the store)...
I believe I know of another version of the California 3-way (unless this has another name... I'm in California so to me, it's just another method of a 3-way..) which I 'think' is still code-compliant.. but it needs to be done in conduit/flex with the light in the middle of the run between the two switches, thus allowing you to take the circuit room to room, keeping neutrals in the switch boxes and everything. The only difference really being the light location and the way the leg to the light is run. You have the power come into switchbox A, and it goes from there, passes through the light's jbox to switchbox B. The single traveler follows the same route. You'll have the neutral come into switchbox A, up to the light, down to switchbox B, and then both the power and neutral can continue onto the next room's switchboxes. The traveler stays on the commons, and the legs both go up from each switch to the light instead of switch to switch to light. Running it this way allows a neutral in each location of the 3-way switches, and allows you to take power from one room to the next, never changing the polarity of anything.
This was very informative. I can't say I have seen the Chicago or California 3 way locally. But the one I didn't see is the hybrid 3 way. I use it mostly for entry halls. But to save that additional 2 wire switched leg, we run 3 wire from a switch box with power to say an entry chandelier box, then 3 wire back down making a dead end on the other side of the hall. Neutral comes from the power switch box. Switch leg is the common at the dead end. And yes you have to change the color of the travelers in the ceiling box to avoid having two white wires at the fixture.
I think this is what I have in my house.I have a foyer light with stairs. switch at bottom and switch at top. The bottom switch has a common/hot, neutral and two "travelers". the top switch has only one traveler and one neutral (coming from wire nut with 3 or 4 other white wires going who knows where). Im trying to wire up a smart switch but cannot get the top switch to work. Any ideas? and yes, I am not an electrician.
@@jleslie246 if there multiple neutrals in the box at the top of the stairs that tells me there at one point was a pig tail coming from the "hots" in that same box to feed the circuit. This is more akin to the California 3 way described in the video. In older homes a neutral is a neutral to older electricians. Neutral and switched leg comes from the bottom of the stairs and you have a black and white pair of "travelers" at the top of the stairs and a hot wire in the switch at the top is the common.
If you're wondering where how power gets to the switched leg, it's the travelers, all the switch does is alternate between the two travelers as paths. Commons are source and load.
@@samuelcrossland1101 the only wires connected at the top of the stairs are the traveler and neutral. it worked with the old switch but the new smart switch i put in at the bottom wont work with the top switch connected.
Lol did it take you some time to figure out what they had running? If so how long. Luckily I have personally never ran into a Chicago/carter 3 way, I have only heard of them and apparently they have been illegally installed decades after they became illegal in the mid 1920s. A fairly common application, was on older farms , and homes in rural areas, where you had a home, a yardlight and an outbuilding, and some receptacles in the outbuilding that are to remain constant hot, and 3 way switches in the home and outbuilding controlled the yardlight using only 3 wires instead of four with or without ground.
When it comes to the conduit fill and wire count there have been several times ive had to have 1/2" emt to a single switch but dont want to have another conduit come out of the switch leg side. What ive done is what i was taught is called a cold switched 3way....might be named wrong but this is where you have power and switche leg on the same side. All you do is tie your common wire into power right away which send the piwer side to the switch thats a die/ alone then wrap your switch leg on the travelers.
Im used to seeing the "cali" three way in Houston (in new residential construction mind you) where they used/repurposed the white/"neutral" wire as a traveler.
so chicago style is bad because the shell is energized and exposed... so someone could easily come in contact with it when changing a bulb. but does the danger go away if the home is using all embedded led lights? (the lights you cant replace i mean)
Can be especially confusing for traveling electricians because often local jurisdictions have stricter requirements than the NEC and while one county for example, may allow dead end three ways, the next county may not, or they may allow 14-4 or two runs of 14-2 so as to have a neutral at all switch boxes, for example.
The 'Dead End 3-Way' is what I would use based on my 45 years in electronics, though I would run the 14/3 red & black from the travelers on the first hot switch plus the neutral straight into the ceiling box, then strip off the outer jacket, cut the white wire and fasten it onto the shell screw, then put black tape onto the other end of the white and connect it to the screw hooked to the bottom light socket contact. Then I would continue the cable over to the other 3-way switch, and hook red and black to the travelers, and white to common with a black tape band added. The down side is pulling the wire all the way through the box. BUT, I know the way we would do things in electronics does not always satisfy code, though it would save on wire nuts and wire. Thanks for your informative videos. I learned a bunch of this stuff from my dad a long time ago, but he went to trade school to be an electrician in the 1930s. Much has changed!
Wonder if your dad learned the carter 3 way method, because it allowed power on both ends of a three way using 3 wires instead of 4 not counting the ground, and the economic hardships of the time forced many people to get creative and make do with the least amount of material. Actually ran across a carter 3 way a little while back on a farm with a yardlight between the house and barn with a single conductor running from the house and barn to the light pole, controlled by 3 way switches from different panels. House and barn were built c. 1910 and got electricity in the late 40s.
Well here in Oklahoma City we always called the California three-way it's where you have the hot and switch leg in the same box and you just send the switch leg over on the white wire
This carter/Chicago might be what I saw at my friends house that had 148 volts which had me confused. One switch used the white neutral (no black tape to show it’s hot) and the other had all the neutrals in a wire nut. I’m thinking the reason it has 148 volts when tested with meter is because the neutral white wire is being used like the carter but ties in to 2 other whites in a nut and this is not correct and a reason for the improper voltage?? Anyone have input?
