Is There Such Thing as a 3-Way Switch Loop? What's the Difference Between a 3-Way and a Switch Loop?

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As most electricians know, there are switch loops, and there are 3-way switches. But is there such a thing as a 3-way switch loop? This was a question from one of our viewers. In the latest episode of Electrician U, Dustin digs into this topic to explain how all these scenarios work.
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To understand the topic, lets layout standard switch wiring, switch loop wiring and standard 3-way switch wiring. Something to keep in mind, for ALL switches (or power sources for that matter) power must originate at the source, travel THRU the load, and return back to the source. For a standard switch, we bring the hot, neutral, and ground into the switch box. Then we run the hot, neutral, and ground up to the light fixture and wire. For a switch loop, the incoming hot, neutral, and ground are run to the FIXTURE box first. The neutral and ground from that cable are wired to the fixture. Here is where we get a bit different. Another cable has to be installed from the fixture box to the switch box that has at least 3 wires. We need to take the incoming hot from our fixture box down to the switch on one of the wires and wire to one of the terminal screws on the switch. The other wire we would place on the other terminal screw and run it back up to our fixture box and wire to our light. Since 2 conductor NM cable and MC cable are traditionally white and black, we need to reidentify the white conductor for the purpose of carrying the current, so someone doesn’t get confused and receive a nasty shock!
3-way switches are a bit different as they are 2 separate locations being utilized to actuate a fixture (or series of fixtures) but with a single power source. The thing to remember here is you bring power IN on one of the switches and OUT to the fixture(s) on the other one. The switches look a bit different also in that there are 4 terminal screws on the switch. One for the ground a common (which is either power IN or power OUT depending on which one you are using it for) and 2 travelers. So, power is brought in on one side of the 3-way where the incoming hot is connected to the common terminal. A 12-3 should be run between the 3-way switches where the incoming neutral is connected to the white of the cable and the ground to the ground. The other black and red wires are connected to the TRAVELER terminals on the switch. On the other 3-way switch, the common screw would be the switch leg going TO the light fixture, the traveler terminals would receive the traveler conductors from the other switch, and the neutral & ground conductor would go up to the fixture (with the hot) to actuate the light.
Much like a normal switch loop, we bring the incoming hot into the fixture box. But we need to run a 12-3 type cable down to each switch location. This quantity of conductors is important as we now have the traveler conductors to deal with. So, reidentify the white conductor for both switch locations. On the side that would receive the incoming hot, connect it to the hot from source. In both switch locations, this reidentified white wire would be hooked to the common screw. The black and red conductors would be connected to the traveler screws on the devices and then wire nutted in the fixture box. Incoming hot and ground conductors would be hooked up to the fixture as normal!

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27 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 441

@matthewfarwell5539 Год назад

Sir, I have to tell you (from someone who never comments) that I really appreciate your teaching methods. Very straight forward, never condescending. You can teach to complete inexperienced and seasoned electricians alike. As someone who teaches and also is electrician, I must give you credit for this great work. Thank you for delivering content that actually empowers and encourages others.

@8fivezero Год назад

Never have I ever heard this explained so elequently. As a handyman I ran into this working on my aunt's 70's townhouse when I updated the three way kitchen switches. I fumbled with this for 2 hours until I called an electrician to help. It took him about a half hour until he figured out the hot was in the light fixture and was able to wire it properly. Now I understand that this was a three way switch loop.

@mikejohnson3873 2 года назад

I LOVE this content. This dude teaches the basic fundamentals of electricity better than most seasoned electricians can! I wish more people taught it like this. I feel it would definitely help apprentices better understand and therefore, engage more with the trade and to be better workers.

@John_Doe-007 Год назад

Well that's exactly what I'm doing here. Lol

@mattcrowley1076 2 года назад

I REALLY struggled with reidentification of wires, and 3ways/4ways in general, cant express enough how much I appreciate you clarifying this stuff!!

@dallasarnold8615 2 года назад

I am a retired handyman. Love your videos. On several occasions I came across three way circuits functioning wrong. Flip one switch and the light works. Go to the second switch and nothing happens. Flip the first one back light goes out, go to the second and light comes on. Return to the first switch and nothing happens. I eventually would find the right way to change the wiring to fix it, but perhaps you might do a video showing what is going on for others here.

@keithbockmon3264 2 года назад

I once owned a house that had a 3-way switch loop, and I never could quite understand what was going on. Your drawing and explanation cleared that up. Thanks for the education!

@blakek1043 2 года назад

I use to get zapped alot by this but yea great explanation.

@dumbeezy5480 Год назад

That’ll be $3000, sir. Cash or credit?

@andrewmarcinko1796 Год назад

I’ve come across this twice in California and both times I figured it out thru process of elimination. But you made it clear how the current travels. So thank you for being so informative.

@staffs964 8 месяцев назад

Outstanding buddy I spent nearly a full weekend trying to fit new 3-way switches for the Mrs. Of course it was a perfect storm!... I'm Brit! now in Canada, we do it differently, just a DIY bloke, the house is almost a hundred years old with 70s wiring, no re-identification marks, and guess what, it was a 3-way, switch loop! Your video of the 3WSL was the only one I stumbled across, not knowing what to search for! I was at least gratified to hear you say that your electrician was confused. Magic, her switches now work. Thanks

@SkilasSkilasGaming 2 года назад

Thanks dude, I'm a beginner and just 21 years old so having access to videos like this is awesome.

@EzRay11 2 года назад

Hey Dustin, Effin Awesome! I’m not an electrician. This is without a doubt the best electrical instruction channel on RU-vid. That white board along with your style of teaching explains these circuits in simple easy to understand terms. Thanks for all you do.

@keything8487 2 года назад

whats scary is john q home owner trying to do, redo these type joints, and hurting themselves, or others......or even causing a fire.

@EzRay11 2 года назад

@@keything8487 Hey Key, John Q here. I may not be an electrician but I do take it very seriously. I have been doing my own and friends home electrical stuff for over 30 years. Admittedly have done my share of head scratching over the years. And yes, I also admit I must have had some luck. Having said that, there’s no shortage of John Q’s like me out there, and videos like this can only inform and help those of us that are not trained electricians, gain a better understanding of what is required and how to do it safely. I wish I had access to information like this back then.

@keything8487 2 года назад

@@EzRay11 i understand, i have seen first hand too many home/store owners get in over their heads (quickly).....and it never turns out well......for educational purposes, i like the video, im just afraid it ight empower some folks (hold my beer types) to bite off more than can be "chewed"....nothing personal against you.....not everyman/woman is capable.

@jopo6388 2 года назад

I've occasionaly come across this in older homes here in NY and leaves a much more crowded ceiling box. If you already had it wired with a single pole switch loop it is much easier to add a 3 way by simply running a 3 wire from the existing single pole switch to the new 3 way. Its still a switch loop running through the added 3 way and changing the single pole to a 3 way. Much cleaner and in fact can be made into 4 way, 5way etc by daisy chaining additional switches with additional 3 wire.

@JohnThomas-lq5qp 2 года назад

In my 50 plus years as a sparky never heard of a 5 way. You can have two to whatever you need 4 way switches wired between two 3 way switches. Had a gadget nut that we had to install outdoor flood lights from 5 locations in his big house. Best location was right next to his bed slightly higher then top of end table so he could turn on luminares without getting out of bed. Had to add a fancy timer, photo cell and a 4 position switch to select what he wanted to control Linares. Fourth position was bypass to keep bulbs lite while replacing them.

@pouraty Месяц назад

This explained everything I had questions regarding 3-way. Well Done. Thank you.

@Russianmafia10 2 года назад

Another switch loop is if you need to add a switch to an existing one switch circuit with the hot in the switch box, is where you change the switch to a 3 way, then run one 14/3 wire to your second switch, and have the white return to the original switch box, and connect the original leg to the light to the white return from the second switch

@Sparky-ww5re 2 года назад

I've always called this a dead end three way. you can also do the same thing with a single pole switch loop.

@randomcuriosities8441 Год назад

Yep done that plenty of times

@kendenning3920 2 года назад

My Uncles house has a 3 way switch loop like this. It never worked correctly. One of the switches went bad so I switched it out for him and noticed it wasn’t working correctly. Told me it was always like that. I couldn’t leave it like that lol. Took some time but I figured it out. He was happy after 30 years it was finally working correctly haha.

@helmanfrow 2 года назад

Hey, Dustin, very good video. You keep getting better at explaining these concepts. The digital whiteboard is a big step up. A tiny bit of constructive feedback, if I may: Even though I already thoroughly understand this material it was a little confusing to me, as a "visual learner", to follow the drawings at times. Use a coil in a circle to represent a lightbulb. The architectural symbol with its four protruding wire-looking things is unnecessarily busy. It took me a second to realize that the light fixture is supposed to be in the ceiling box and not in a different location. Consider using a light grey as a background or outline color to define the boundaries between different locations or areas. Finally, When possible redraw the conductors on the side they're entering an outlet rather than drawing in 'hops'. This will help declutter the image.

@DrD6452 2 года назад

Before I started watching your channel anything electrical scared me so I never dared touch it and this stems back to a bad shock I got when I was 20. Now I do my own electrical (simple residential in my own places only) and licensed electricians say they like my attention to detail. You're an awesome teacher and this video is an awesome troubleshooting and explanatory video.

@heroknaderi Год назад

I really enjoyed this one i have done a single pole switch loop before but not a 3 way one this showed how it;s done I really appricciat it.

@tburrelliv 6 месяцев назад

I am not an electrician, but a long time electrical DIYer. I have two comments: 1. I am old enough that I think the "3-way switch loop" was the way I was originally taught how to do 3-way switches! 2. This was, by far, the best white board (non-hands-on) explanation of 3-way switches I have ever seen. The only thing I would tweak is for the 3-way switch loop, the drawing might lead someone to believe that the "travelers" all connect to the light fixture when they do not. For clarity I would draw those outside the light electrical symbol since they connect (like you said) by wire nutting them together in the box. The only wires in the electrical box that connect to the light fixture are the relabeled common (white wire with black electrical tape usually) connecting to the hot side of the light fixture and the actual common connecting to the common side of the light.

@jefferylebowski7355 2 года назад

You mentioned the remote control 3 way devices in the beginning. I recently used one of those and realized that the wired unit draws power all the time to sense the remote switch. If it is wired as a switch loop, this will result in the light receiving a very small amount of current, even when off. For an LED fixture, this results in a small amount of light. The 2020 requirement of having neutral in the switch box solves this, and now I "get it".

@ranger178 2 года назад

i have that problem with a motion sensor light switch light glows when in sensor mode but is off if you turn selector to off

@LogenNineFingers43 Год назад

Actually you are a bit mistaken. That issue is not due to it being a switch loop. Because regardless the switch is hooked into a Hot and a Switch Leg. What's actually happening is that your light doesn't provide enough Load/resistance for the switch. The electronic switches actually NEED a load to function. Because to keep the electronics running inside, It needs a complete circuit. Using the light as a path to neutral But there is a minimum load of about 15-30 watts I believe If it is below that, the switch functions, but the resistance of the light isn't high enough to eat up that stray voltage coming through from the switch Some switches have a Neutral wire or terminal to alleviate this issue. But another solution is to A: install higher load lights or more of them. Or B: lutron makes a little minimum load capacitor that you wire in either at the switch or in the fixture box to the switch Leg and Neutral, and it supplies a little load of it's own to take care of that stray voltage

@kevinbloomquist2637 2 года назад

This is another way of doing the same thing in a retrofit. Lets say a switch loop already exists and you have 12/2 in the switch box. It is possible to just run a 12/3 from the existing switch box (b1) to a new switch box (b2). Black from 12/2 is connected to common terminal of 3-way in b1. Black and red from 12/3, between the two switched, are attached to the travelers. White from 12/3 (re-identified) connects common terminal of 3-way in b2 to white from 12/2. Please note all whites are re-identified in both boxes. The only benefit for this method is there are less connections in the fixture box which are usually over crowded to begin with. However this does require b1 to be large enough to support the extra 12/3 wire.

@kevinbloomquist2637 2 года назад

Dustin, the way you explain 3-way, switch loops, and 3-way switch loops, shows how great you are as a teacher. Thank you.

@bowmanjeff8 2 года назад

I completely agree

@Sparky-ww5re 8 месяцев назад

Yes, what you described is known as a dead end three way. Wired my share of these in the past during renovations. While keeping in mind that as of 2011, a neutral shall be available in the switch boxs to facilitate future installation of electronic switching devices that require standby power, one of the exceptions to this requirement is with 3 and 4 way switching such that the lighting is visible from the single or combined switch locations, a neutral shall be required at one switch location. All that being said, depending on the jurisdiction, you might not be able to legally add a three way switch to an existing single pole with a 2 wire switch loop, and some inspectors are stricter than the NEC and require neutrals at all locations regardless. So be mindful of that.

@warrensaltzman5195 5 месяцев назад

Very well done. Had a very old house and while I had no idea what it was called... I was putting in all those switch loops everywhere as I went around and replace the pull strings with wall switches (2 and 3 way). Good to know I did it correctly ... wasn't so sure at the time!

@dracula3811 2 года назад

On the switch loops, i see the white being tied to the hot more frequently and the black being used as the switch leg.

@TheForgottenMan270 Год назад

I have dealt with many switch loops and 3-way switch loops, but never knew what they were called. Now I know.

@bowmanjeff8 2 года назад

I had this same setup. I was simply trying to replace a light fixture. I noted extra wires in the ceiling box. I knew that it I simply disconnected the wires from the fixture and reconnected the same to new fixture all would work. And it did. However I drew a simply diagram to understand more as I knew that the fixture was controlled by two three way switches. After shutting off the power I did continuity tests to determine which wire was going where. And the two three ways were in gang boxes with others 3 ways for different fixtures. I did not hang the new fixture until I understood the flow. And I kept the diagram I drew so I would understand in the future if I changed out the fixture again. Side note: switch loops are a great example of why you should always turn the circuit off at the breaker. Turning off the switch would not stop the fixture box from being hot. I’m a diy homeowner. So I try to research as much as possible. And draw pictures and think before touching anything in a dangerous manner. Thanks for an excellent video.

@danieldryden542 2 года назад

As a 30 year vet of electrical work, It is always feed down on the white and up on the black! The reason is that when you see a white tied to a black in the ceiling you know its a down feed to the switch and the black remains a known hot that is hooked up on the device. Down on the white Up on the black!

@ericgold3840 8 месяцев назад

Yep. NEC 200.7 makes it a requirement. I'm a newb apprentice so I can't say for how long this has been in the NEC although it is *really* common to find wires of whatever color used for whatever. It's a wild west out there. First time I've caught an error in a Dustin video. ;)

@pld8993 7 месяцев назад

@@ericgold3840 200.7 also requires that the white be reidentified to a hot color. Not allowed to leave it white anymore.

@larrytoler3266 6 месяцев назад

I agree, besides the code says you can't use the white for a switch leg, It has to be the constant hot if used on a switch

@majorintherepublick5862 6 месяцев назад

You as an electrician identify each wire at their termination points with tape or other means

@JimMenzie 3 месяца назад

😊😊p

@JCWren 2 года назад

I've got several 3-way switch loops on my property (1985 house and out buildings). As I understand it, these don't meet code for new work because they don't provide a neutral for a smart switch. And that's exactly what I want to do, but without that neutral (or really violating code by using the ground as neutral for the smart switch :) ), I can't replace them. And to make matters worse, these are in areas that aren't accessible unless I start cutting holes in the ceiling.

@JohnThomas-lq5qp 2 года назад

You seldom have to bring such things up to present codes unless performing major renovations. Hopefully you still can purchase devices that utilize the ground wire for probably less then a milliamp of power. We were told at an IAEI continuing education class that one of the reasons for requiring a white grounded conductor ( no such thing in NEC anymore as a neutral ) was that in cases where people had a lot of them feed from a GFCI the slight imbalance between the hot black conductor & the white wire would exceed the 4 to 6 milliamps needed to trip a GFCI. If switches are in open basements or in conduit then a white wire is not necessary because it's easy to install one in the future.

@AlwaysBeSmart674 9 месяцев назад

Cool you included the 3 way switch loop on my 3rd year of being an electrician had a switch issue in my house and it was wired this took me a min to figured out what was going on. House was built in the 70s and built by an electrician so all kinds of crazy shit going on.

@plandl1 9 месяцев назад

Last year I came across an interesting loop. I didn't know it was a loop at the time. Situation: hallway, three single switches (one on each end and one in the middle). Someone decided to upgrade the switches and instead of replacing the old yellow 3-way switches with new white ones, they installed 3 single-gang switches. I had conductors on the grounds!!. This mess had wires connected together that shouldn't have been and some capped off and yet no breakers were tripping. So I removed the switches, pulled all the wires out and identified them with continuity checks. So it was actually a 4-way loop. It took a couple of days to wrap my head around it, since the power came in from the light fixture in the middle of the hallway but I finally got it all working. Man, what a learning opportunity!!!

@treyhart6861 Год назад

I love how you explained all this, but I would love for you to blow everyone's minds and diagram out a FOUR-WAY switch for when someone wants three, four, five, ten switches for one light!

@lupefernandez6332 Год назад

I appreciate your work. I have been having problems with my lights since I bought the house. The wires were connected wrong in the same manner as your demonstration. Got it fixed.

@SpencerNuxoll 11 месяцев назад

This is great information and expertly delivered. Thank you so much. I liked and subscribed even though this is the only video I needed to see. I'm in the boondocks with a 1970s house. Near impossible to get an electrician out here. I've all but broken my brain on what the heck was going on until I saw this and realized what I had was a bunch of 3-Way Switch Loops!! Didn't even know that was a thing! Thank you so much. All problems solved =D

@jeepsaround 2 года назад

Utah small 50s-60s homes with basements, with about 1600-2000sf total, used switch loops, running first to the single light box, then separate wires, one to the four receptacles, and one to the light switch. For small 11ftx11ft rooms with one ceiling light this makes sense in order to isolate each room to one circuit. I completely re-wired the house in order to add a bigger service panel, get a main circuit breaker, add ground wires, and add more circuits. The tight layout of the house and all the load bearing walls made the most sense to keep most of the rooms the same size. It also seemed to make sense to keep the circuits in this loop to isolate each room to one circuit. The two larger rooms and kitchen were wired conventionally. Not everyone has a fancy new large home 3000sf+ and 1960 isn't that old. I kind of chuckle thinking that code (and electrician advertsising carring most about taking your money) makes it sound as if an original 1960s home will burn up or kill you at any moment and that the older fabric insulated NM copper wire is surely rotted, leaking, and arcing. All of mine was was just fine, likely less of an issue in Utah's dry climate.

@johnburnitin1027 2 года назад

I did a 3 way loop on my house, when I built it. The main reason I did that was because the wiring was getting pretty busy in the walls. Took a little head scratching to figure it out, since I have never done one of those before but it worked out great.

@SerenoOunce 7 месяцев назад

When working in older homes with fiber insulated wires and plastered walls these switch loops are very common. Many original fixtures only had a switch on the device itself. Lucky to see a actual wall switch to have been added at all over the course of their many renovations.

@raymond3722 2 года назад

Great illustrations D. You always explain with clarity.

@bigjon9508 2 года назад

I watched 8 minutes of this video before I realized you're talking about what we call cold switching. 😆 The more you know 🤙

@keything8487 2 года назад

i call it a reverse switch leg/3way

@PERFECT-ly7li Год назад

Here in Belize that is the method used to distribute power to light switches and receptacles. The source comes from outlet boxes on the ceiling then to everything else. Nice video!

@CarlosSanchez-qw5eb Год назад

How are you doing DUSTIN, I just wanted to thank you for your excellent teaching and great talent that you possess to explain step by step how to resolve the problem and to identify the problem THANKS FOR YOUR GREAT PATIENCE, QUEENS NEW YORK SAY HELLO 👋......THANKS AGAIN

@Huiando Год назад

Outstanding content! Thank you so much. You just saved me from wasting hours of guessing a wiring in an old house.

@Ikantspell4 2 года назад

My tips. 1)Remember the rules are different now than in the past. You will have a neutral and ground to new switch boxes but It wasn't always that way. 2)3 ways are easy- travelers connect to each other- the ends go to either power or the device. 3) make sure te box can hold all them wires and connectors. If I see a shallow box with 7 wires in it I'm going to cry. 4) always Identity hot or potentially hot wires. For my sanity I have the handy tapes of all colors at the ready. 5)never trust existing wires were properly identified and/or as you're expecting. You get an instant fault and or a nice zap if you're careless. 6) confused where a wire goes? Just do a continuity test using extra wire or invest in a signaling system. Sometimes guessing ain't worth it and testing is faster.

@Flapswgm 2 года назад

You are a VERY good instructor.

@SomeRandomOldGuy 2 года назад

Thank you. Best explanation of a 3 way switch ever. I think I finally get it.

@bassman5066 Год назад

I cannot express how helpful this video was. I just purchased a home built in 1900 and the entire home is wired with switch loops and even some 3 way ones. I am working on replacing the remaining knob and tube from the third floor down (adding a sub panel up there) and now that I have a better understanding of 3 ways I think I can get more loads off the old wiring than I had planned. I have 3 floors and each of those has a 3 way hall light that spans both floors with a 3 switch panel on the second floor that can control all 3 of those lights. That 3 switch panel (and almost every other switch in the house...) is ONLY hot wires and I have yet find where it is fed from, so I am now wondering if I can break that circuit up more by feeding at least one of the 3 ways from the other end. Thank you!

@1000YearHomes Год назад

Great use of white boarding. Clear instructions. Really appreciate this channel and happy to subscribe and like.

@ottoroth9377 2 года назад

In the older days a loop switch was the norm. Even today many electricians are using the loop switch method. But I have ran into the hot & neutral is ran to the switch box!

@bahbarino4479 2 года назад

👏🏻 truly clearly understood, avoiding the 😵‍💫…everyone not in the know, should keep this video for reference not if, but when you stumble onto this in your work adventures.

@randallthomas5207 2 года назад

A few years back we came across a five way switch loop, that a renter had replaced one of the switches in. I took a full day to figure it out and get it wired so it worked. We had to find an easel with a 3X4-foot pad of paper on it, set it in the room we were trying to figure out, and diagram the whole mess before we figured it out.

@MicahFunk 2 года назад

Drawing out a schematic really helps put things into perspective. Did you disconnect all the switches and the light to track down what went where?

@Sparky-ww5re 2 года назад

you think a 3 way switch loop is confusing? It could be worse. I am in the process of finishing up a renovation on a ranch home built in 1952, in Anderson County South Carolina. the three way switches in the hallways are wired with 14/2 cloth covered ungrounded romex from a receptacle, hot and neutral in the switch box are pigtailed and connected to the travellers, then jumps to the next 3 way connected the same way, then jumps to another receptacle to complete the circuit. a single conductor with black rubberized insulation, ran from the common in each switch box to the light. So you are switching the polarity of the socket to turn the bulb on or off. A hot and neutral, light is on. Two neutrals or two hots and the light is off. Old houses are fun to figure out lol

@grahamvaneck8906 2 года назад

I'm not sure what the NEC says on the subject, but in the Canadian Electrical Code it says if you use "premanufactured cables" (NMD, BX, whatever) for switch loops, you have to use white as your "unswitched conductor" (aka, hot) and black as your switch leg. Also, in 2018 it was added that any switch for lights had to have a neutral present in the box (even if it's not being used, it's for if somebody wants to add a dimmer later that requires a neutral), so now you have to use 3-conductor instead of 2 for switch loops. I haven't seen or heard of a 3-way switch loop so far yet in my short career in electrical, but it's good knowledge to have for sure. I love these theory videos and learn a lot from them, thanks Dustin!

@WiliamBennettwildarbennett 2 года назад

Ok 1 other keynote of interest is back in the 60'&70's it was a common practice to send the White Neutral as the switch side and Black as the Switch Leg. Thus leaving the Line in HOT in the ceiling. And trying to figure out a 3way switch loop with that can be very dangerous! Speaking from experience! Here's a tip that I do I take an extension cord, !!!BREAKER or FUSE OFF 1st !!! Then check continuity on ALL OF THE WIRES AND LABEL THEM 🏷 And then isolate the switch side and the travelers. This has saved me from getting popped several times.

@w1swh1 Год назад

Very informative. As a friend once said to me " its very intuitive when you know how" 😀

@seanpouyamehr6677 Год назад

The apprenticeship school I went to called it "wiring a 3-way with power at the source". The load J-box being the source of the hot wire for the switch.

@peto22 Год назад

It's funny that where I live, all lighting circuits are made in "switch loop" way. Living rooms are nicest, there may be dozens of lamps that light up in many different groups, and several 3-way and 4-way lighting connections can go through the same junction box.

@koreykilburn5303 Год назад

My dad’s house was built in the 1920s in rural Central California. I big old 3000 square foot custom farm house in the Craftsman Architecture style. I’ve had to figure out and fix the mess of someone trying to replace worn out switches on a three way switch loop. You aren’t kidding when you talk about a mess. Long hallway with a switch at each end and multiple lights down the hallway. Power in the ceiling.

@josephnicolas2158 2 года назад

Amazing video as usual! Thank you

@davidsoulsby1102 Год назад

Very interesting how different places have different ideas. I'm in the UK, the switch loop as described here is how is how it's always (rare exceptions) done, a ring from the fusebox to the first light then looped to next then the next etc until the last goes back to the fusebox. At each light a 2 core cable (twin and earth) goes down to a switch with the red (live or hot) to the common connection and the black (neutral) to the sw1 connection and marked with red tape, at the light box/chamber the red is connected to live incoming ring and the black with red tape is connected to the fitting live connection. All neutrals are bunched together. What is being called 3 way on the video is what we call 2 way and instead of having wires from the light to each switch we have 1 to the first sw then from there a 3 core cable (3 core and earth) goes to the second switch. Hard to describe but think of it as like the 3 way switch loop here but missing out the light fitting. 3 way switching here is where you has as described above but with an intermediate switch between switch 1 and switch 2, think of a crossover switch. You can put in as many intermediate switches as you want and just call it by how many switches are there eg 5 way 6 way..... To surmise you have a ring of light fittings, each fitting has 1 cable to a switch, then if its 2 way you just run a cable from the switch to the next switch and so on, Radials you could describe them as.

@jonpt2941 Год назад

I love how you explain your video but I'm from UK and we are blue for N Red for L and copper for E

@Sparky-ww5re Год назад

Everyone I work around called this setup a double dead end three way. Usually found in homes from the 70s and earlier. No longer code compliant because there is no neutral available at any of the switch locations.

@morty5085 Год назад

As an American living in the UK working as an electrical design engineer(I'm the guy you hate haha) , switch lives is mostly what I'd used here. However I tend to work on large commercial projects and they tend to use ELV switching instead. Great videos!

@MrKen59 2 года назад

Switch loop is a freaking nightmare to deal with, especially when you want to use a smart switch as there is no neutral at the switch. In my house, the ceiling box loaded with so many wires that it’s nearly impossible to do anything because it’s packed. I want to replace one box to accommodate a fan and the only way to make it right is to separate the contents to a 4x4 box. My house was built in 86.

@jamm6676 Год назад

Bro I love the way you explain things. 🤙

@isaacacosta4496 2 года назад

Im totally gonna look and see if its already a thing, but while i have it fresh in my brain i was looking for a more detailed video on the differences between transfer switch and interlock. again if youve already made then thank you in advance! good vids brother cant wait for the next

@dankelley9361 2 года назад

Great job identifying a somewhat confusing concept!

@scotts2k 2 года назад

Great video, such an educational channel

@publicservice9683 2 года назад

I wish I knew about this 5 years ago when I had to renovate a 70s house

@larrybrellenthin4247 2 года назад

One if the major problems I see with 3way switches is calling them that. Call it what it is a single pole double throw switch!

@HonoredMule Год назад

I recently replaced a lot of 2-wire switch loops with 3-wire in my home, allowing access to neutral wires in the switch boxes (needed for ELV switches and some smart devices). IMO it's a _very_ nice side benefit that now all those hot whites (which weren't even marked) are gone, replaced with hot reds. Imagine my frustration at discovering that some of the 3-way-switches directly connected to the ceiling box (not 3-way switch loops, just a regular switch loop extended via 3-wire to a second switch box) are at external walls covered with cabinetry, backsplashes, accessed via incredibly tight attic space, etc. The internal switch boxes where I'd prefer dimmers to be located are - in addition to sometimes serving more than one circuit - that much harder to serve a neutral. I rarely accept compromises, but this is one case where I did, designating switches near exterior walls for dimming (which also happened to already have an available true neutral), rather than making the wiring setup _more_ complicated with redundant/defunct connections to ceiling boxes, or going to the whole trouble of ripping 14-2 wires out of one wall before adding 14-3 wires to another. This wiring setup was done in the early 90's and was still up to code at that time, so it's sadly still very common in Canada. I think it might even be _still_ code compliant. I'm not surprised that 3-way switch loops weren't used. Most of the ceiling boxes are already at or near wire capacity since they're also serving as junction boxes for the whole circuit of lights. I shudder to think of servicing those locations that would have a line in, one or more loads, _and_ multiple switch connections.

@jerrymarasco683 Месяц назад

I like your videos. This was my first three-way switch I wired. Yes a lot of ceiling wiring was used the 70s and earlier. Nowadays, as the code has changed if you decide to do this you're going to have to use one 12/3 or,14/3 and one 12/4 or, 14/4 cuz you need to have a neutral in one of the switches. Just saying.

@cward1954 2 года назад

Running power source wires into ceiling boxes. I still do that. Never thought of it as an old way of doing it.

@blainemercer6731 2 года назад

I always wire things where there is a neutral in every box.

@MichaelFord 2 года назад

same as everyone.. thanks. I knew the mechanics of them but didn't get the understanding until this video. I watched another a while back when you guys taught me that there is code for the number of wires that you can have in a box. wouldn't you break that code since normal 3-ways at the box only 3 conductors: hot, common and ground. with the 3-way switch loop you would now have 11 if you include the ground for all of them: source: common, ground, hot for each leg:(hot, common, traveler, ground)x2

@philipstaite4775 Год назад

I very much prefer the "modern" way of wiring hot through the switch to the load. I've worked on some older stuff with switch loops and the white and black wires connected together just looks so wrong... Great explanations!

@edisona.543 2 года назад

Thank you!

@davidgagnon2849 Год назад

The three-way switch loop is what I encountered in a carport. They had two three-way switches and wiring that I had never seen. I don't remember why I was having to work on it, but I ended up running new wires and connecting it the conventional way. I wish I had seen this video first. 🙂

@jthornca Год назад

I'd be interested in knowing how you would install "smart" or "IR Motion" 3 way switches in this the 3 way switch loop scenario. Most of the smart or motion switches on the market require a neutral wire which doesn't exist in the switch box. I discovered this, much to my dismay when installing smart switches in a home I purchased which was built back in the 80's. Excellent video as per usual. I started watching you when I embarked on this journey to update my new home. You are an great resource.

@kenbrown2808 Год назад

in the 3 way switch loop scenario shown, you would reconnect the loop wiring - each 3 wire loop wire would revert to hot, neutral, switched. then each motion sensor switch would be hooked up like a single pole, and the both red (switched) leads would connect to the light. best to have a contactor model of motion sensing switch for that, rather than solid state, since some solid state switches don't respond well to a backfeed.

@Merescat 2 года назад

Perfect explanation! Great video!

@TheWmiller8 2 года назад

Thank you for explaining a switch loop. I have a light switch in my hallway that turns on a light in the room on the other side of the room. The switch in the room controls one side of a receptacle. I am looking to make the switch in the room control the light and the switch in the hall change to be a receptacle. And hope to make the receptacle in the room both hot all the time.

@correykeen2956 Месяц назад

I bought a 40 year old house here in Japan and all my switches are switch loops and a 3 way switch loop on the stairs. None of the neutrals were reidentified and it took me entirely too long to figure out what was going on. Why is there a neutral and no leg on these switches? After thinking about it for several minutes I decided to throw caution to the wind and to test my hypothesis that the neutral was the leg I turned power back on to one of the switches and checked to see if I had current with the switch on and off on the white wire. Sure enough that is what was going on. Now I know the proper names for these. Before anyone chastises me for working with a live circuit, I'm an old aircraft mechanic and we have to do a lot of troubleshooting with aircraft powered up. I'm experienced and trained to work with live circuits.

@zakmiller9363 Год назад

I like your videos. Only thing I don’t like very much is the phase “illegal” 3way. In NY we call them “dead end 3way”. I understand you need a neutral in every box. But in some situations or old home. You have no choice but to use a dead end 3way. It’s good to learn every possible way to wire things. You shouldn’t call it illegal because then people might think it’s not allowed.

@ElectricianU Год назад

There are multiple types of 3way wiring setups, I have a video on this if you're interested, it's called 3 ways 3ways can be - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qjOth4dnMxo.html - some are illegal, some are not. A dead end 3 way is often not allowed in many places because of the new "neutral at switch" requirements of the 2020 NEC. Some jurisdictions don't have any issue with it but some, like here in Austin do.

@zakmiller9363 Год назад

@@ElectricianU yeah I figured it was a jurisdiction type deal. I understand the new code but in an old house or a Reno. A dead end 3way is the only options. I think most inspectors would understand the situation. Personally I like having a neutral in every box. I think that's a great code for us. I appreciate the reply and I hope you continue to put out good electrical content. Keep making us look good brother 👍

@thedillpickle100 2 года назад

Ok, you'll have to imagine this, now way to draw it. 😋 3 way switch loop with traveler between switchs. Using your layout, bring power from ceiling box using 12-2w/g to left switch. Continue 12-2w/g from left switch box to receptacle on that wall. Left switch, common on black screw. 12-2w/g traveler on brass screws from left switch box to right right switch box on brass screws of switch. 12ga thhn wire from black screw, right switch box to ceiling box connect to lamp. To clutter it up further, drop power from ceiling box to the other three walls. Note: Extra good times when the whole thing is wired in 16ga with a 20ga twisted wire ground. Usually the rubber, paper and braided fiber insulation would fall apart when you touched it.

@haerfgvbag7050 Год назад

good explanation

@harrygilbert4593 Год назад

Thank you

@Darenator1 2 года назад

First time I've ever heard that called a loop. I was trained in the 80's. Always called it a switch leg. We never wired multiple switches to the light box. Switch leg (loop) to first switch, then 3 wire to each additional switch (3 or 4 way). Usually only did that for commercial buildings. Also was a code violation to run white to light fixture even if marked. Hot to white switch leg and black to fixture, no marking needed

@jaromrobinson2339 2 года назад

When I saw the video title I was thinking you would just add a single 12/3 w ground between an existing box to a new box. That's the easiest way I know of to add a new switch to an existing circuit.

@broderickcamel1701 2 года назад

badass video, keep them a coming pls

@mattpictaggi7504 Год назад

Wish I had seen this video a year ago 😢 My house had 6 of these 3 way loops, that had been modified multiple times by previous renovations. 3 electricians in my area could not figure out what was going on and all recommended a complete rewire of the house.

@snowlothar45 Год назад

Your second example (3-way switch loop) was legal at one time, but a neutral is now required at each switch location (with a couple of exceptions), so a 12/4 would have to be run to each switch location to provide that neutral as per code.

@hankkline7300 Год назад

Only one location has to have a neutral so you would never have to run a 12/4, or more commonly a 14/4 wire. Most lighting circuits are 15A. the first switch could be connected to a 14/2 NM (Romex) the second would use a 14/3

@throttlebottle5906 Год назад

@@hankkline7300 I missed that part of the code only requiring it at "one" location and was bashing my head and cursing them for adding that.

@dentron2 2 года назад

Good video. My only criticism would be on the last schematic dont draw the travelers over the light symbol, makes it look confusing

@rovi4858 2 года назад

By the way you have a very good channel congratulation and keep up the good work

@tjchristenson4194 Год назад

So... House built in NVA 1976 and ran into this, wanted to hang outlet off one of the switches but..... hot feed from overhead light with a three was switch loop no neutral in the switch box. Messed with my head. Thanks for the understanding.

@Sparky-ww5re Год назад

And that's one of many reasons why modern practice is to run your incoming power into a switch box, then run your 14-2 to the light. Also, there's a number of electronic switching devices that require a neutral to function properly. In the old days this wasn't a problem because electronic switches did not exist, you were simply making or breaking the circuit.

@jefffree6990 3 месяца назад

I'm about to work on a 3 way switch in my 1920's house. All the other fixtures have the hot going directly to the light receptacle, so I'm betting the "3 way switch loop " is what i'm going to find....

@mariannewestrope3888 Год назад

We live in Ontario Canada in a war-time house that had all of the wiring going directly into the lights. I'm thinking it was done that way to be efficient. One or two wires going up to power all six ceiling lights in the house.

@Bapuji42 2 года назад

Excellent video as usual. Succinct and clear. It seems like one way to identify a 3-way switch loop in cases of confusion would be that there's two cables coming out of the light box, right? Two sets of 15-2. You could check it from above or pull it out of the ceiling and check.

@NickFrom1228 2 года назад

Actually it would be two sets of 14/3. But, in today's code, due to occupancy sensing devices, you can't assume seeing a 14/3 means 3 way switches.

@Sparky-ww5re 2 года назад

@@NickFrom1228 in this case, when there is a single pole switch loop done to meet Code, the white in the 14/3 will be tied to the neutral in the light box, capped off in the switch box, the black is the hot and the red is the leg. I've used this method in remodels, to add a switch to a pull chain fixture. In new construction I always wire the incoming power to the switch box, makes troubleshooting easier if there's a problem later on, saves from having to get a ladder, even if it means using a little more wire.

@NickFrom1228 2 года назад

@@Sparky-ww5re Makes sense.

@Bapuji42 2 года назад

@@NickFrom1228 Right, my mistake. But seeing *two* 14-3 from the light would mean 3-way switch loop, right?

@NickFrom1228 2 года назад

@@Bapuji42 Probably, but I don't want to say this is the only reason you would see it. There is probably some scenario out there where you would see this but I can't think of any offhand.

@gregorythomas333 2 года назад

The very first time I ever encountered a 3-way it was a three way switch loop...drove me nuts trying to figure out what the hell was going on...especially because there was no reidentifying of the hot leg to white going on. This was back in the late 1977 in rural Alabama and I was 9 years old...yeah I've been working with grid electricity for a long time...since I was 5. My Grandpa started teaching me about electricity when I was around 3½ but back then it was low voltage...usually 12VDC...just to get me started in it.

@davidgagnon2849 Год назад

I'm going to watch this video several more times so I get it firmly planted in my noggin!

@manuelluna370 2 года назад

Awesome video.

@jack002tuber Год назад

Switch loops on paper and in theory are simple, there are two legs to choose from, both ends can pick one and either make or break a circuit. You didn't mention the middle switch option that swaps the two runners. It adds a 3rd switch option.

@network_king 2 года назад

I got my house they had one 3 way setup with like 14 AWG old brown cloth wire, a 10 AWG sepeate as traveler between them. I redid almost al lthe wireing in my hose, i ran from pannel to attick to junction boxes, split off to fixtures from those, then from fixtures i ran to switches. From switches to fixtures i used 14/4C wire then had hot, neautral, and two return hots so i could do ceiling fan control, etc. One room i went from one switch and put in 5 switches, all the 3 and 4 ways used this too, ran back up to attic and joind them all in a large junction box that then went off to the fixture. Was no way to get 24 conductors and ground in any normal box, would have been hard to run wire down and back up.

@hankkline7300 Год назад

I explain to laymen that a 3 way switch is actually an either or switch either the red or the black is always hot and the second 3 way sw connects the light to the red or the black wire depending on switch is thrown.

@gradyrm237 2 года назад

My brother's house completely. 30 year electrician and never understood why the old timers put the brains of the circuit in the ceiling box. Keep the hots and legs in the switch boxes and you don't have to take a fixture down to tap a hot etc.