Damn, that's a real sad way to learn a lesson. Fella may be able to resurrect that kettle by inflating it gently with air pressure and then making some kinda long arm wooden dolly to gently panelbeat it back to shape. I run double thumpers, especially for rum and I'm super religious about easing back the heat and breaking the sealed connections above the dropper tubes before shutting it down. Glad to see you're still making vids George - you rock. 😊 Happy Distilling brother.
Hey George, another informative video. I had emailed you a couple of weeks ago regarding my experience of my boiler implosion using a Thumper. As a safety suggestion, if you do another video on Thumpers and PID controlled boilers and how it is possible for your system to implode if you heat up the boiler too quickly and the temperature over shoots before the PID can stabilize the system. This is what had happen to me and caused my boiler to implode in front of my eyes but not as sever as the other gentleman's boiler you showed in the video. Something I thought you might want to add to the video as a preventive measure is adding a Vacuum Relief valve at the top of the Lyne arm. After I made my repairs to the boiler, the first thing I did was add the valve with a Tee up near where my thermocouple is located on the Lyne arm and it works like a charm. I purposely tried to pull a vacuum on the system and at 1 inHg, I could hear the valve open and allow air into the system. Even if someone were to have a lapse of memory and forgot to disconnect their Thumper after shutting off their system, you would never have the system of going into a state of excess negative pressure to cause an implosion. Keep them video's coming they are super informative for all taking an interest in the craft.
How long after you turn off the system does it need relief? I always thought it was when there are no more drops coming from the condenser. I don't have the option of adding a release valve, but I could easily open the lid of the thumper. I just wanna do it when pressure is equal, because right after you turn off the heat it's surely still positive, right? So is 0 drops from condenser the turning point towards negative pressure?
Just wanted to add something as I have a tradition set up with a thumper. You can install a negative psi valve to the cap. When you turn it off it will automatically open the valve to outside air. I still disconnect the arm from the thumper but it is a nice back up to have
Thanks George, I learn something every time you speak. Thumper information is something nobody's talking about except you on RU-vid. I guess you could say what happened to that guy's still literally sucks.
I'm sure this can happen, but I'm not so sure it happens as often as you might think. My first still was made from a cheap 5 gallon stock pot and my thumper was a cheap 4 gallon stock pot. Neither one was of very heavy gauge stainless steel. I used the thumper in many different ways for different purposes. I've used it to increase the amount of wash I could run at one time and in that case the thumper would be filled to about 3/4ths of its capacity. Early on I was a little surprised to open up the thumper after a run and find it empty. After some reading and research, I learned that as the system cooled, a vacuum was being created in the boiler and lyne arm. Because of the vacuum, the charge in the thumper was being sucked back into the boiler. I learned that I could mitigate this by simply opening up my boiler fill port as soon as I shut off the power. George, one thing you didn't touch on in your video was one important thumper design feature that may have been overlooked. It's important to design the intake pipe so that it can relieve the vacuum by sucking back the liquid from the thumper. That feature would be to cut a couple of "V" notches in the end of the pipe or drill some sizable holes near the end of the pipe. Without notches or holes, If the intake path is allowed to contact the bottom of the thumper, the sucking action can strengthen the pipe's bond to the bottom surface of the thumper so that the liquid can't be drawn out. The resulting vacuum could then indeed colapse the boiler, as may very well have been the case with the boiler in your video. The two notches would prevent this and give the liquid a path back into the boiler - thus relieving the vacuum. As with any distilling apparatus, safety should always be of primary concern.
George thank you again . " Why don't you use a thumper" because it's another thing to keep temp on . "Well I'm gonna build one on myn when I build one " SMH go for gold then . I'm about sick of ignorant people who don't wanna put the research in. I could only imagine how u feel🤓
The 1 thumbs down was from the one guy who was absent that day they did this experiment in 5th grade science class. Fill up an empty milk gallon with hot water and swirl it around. Then empty it and put the cap on nice and tight. Now watch it. That simple. If you want to rush things, put some cold water on it. There's always someone out there who just has to be that a##.
Thumpers were also used as a doubler to increase the proof. Its like doing a double distillation in a single run. Now we got column reflux stills to do the same thing and the ratio can be adjusted.
I agree with you George, a thumper is simply not worth it's aggravation. Yes, a thumper will increase the final proof maybe 10-15 points, but big deal. If you run a pot still it will produce 160-170 proof which is higher than can be safely consumed. The same still with a thumper will reach 180-185 proof, but the still temperature will be much higher and this can result in puking especially if the mash was fruit based. As far as using it to infuse flavors, I've been disappointed in it. You want to make a flavored spirit, add it after distilling the way all distilleries do. Thumpers aren't worth the extra work required.
That's so crazy, I'm just getting into distilling and you and Jesse are the two that I've been following. Is there a forum that would be a good starting point for a new distiller? Anybody?
I learned that a thumper is actually a DOUBLER. You put singlings in the thumper and your beer in the pot. Then it all gets doubled at the same time. Works for me, anyway. I don't know how I would control the heat with a thumper.
I use double thumpers I've got about 1 min to crack the seel before the still starts sucking the second thumper into the first I'm very sure if I let it go I would implode my still when it emptyed the second thumper.
Seems to be a lack of understanding on thump kegs due to antiquity and lack of experience rather than it's effectiveness. In it's intended application, it works well. But it needs a bit more attention than a standard tower setup
George provides a lot of good information about things I was already doing but wasn't Shure about but he has cleared it up for me especially about electric heat sources and PID controllers.
Hi George, just to add emphasis to your video here, I work in a refinery making gasoline and light ends products, like butane and what we do here is nothing more than distilling but on a larger scale. Pulling a vacuum in a closed system is no joke! When we do repairs to various vessels and towers we steam them out, get them really hot to draw out the hydrocarbon from the steel and I have seen inch thick steel vessels crushed like a beer can because they were not properly vented during a cool down phase. For a simple demonstration of pulling a vacuum due to cooling just take a water bottle, fill it 1/4 full with hot water, put the lid on, and let it set for awhile or run a little cold water over it and watch the magic! Enjoying your videos! Gary, Cypress Ca
My 50 gal still has a pressure release valve & a fast action vacuum release valve, this is a auto valve in the cap of the still that opens up automatically if the vacuum gets to high....
I'm sure glad you explain that I just had that happen to me yesterday was my first time running a still with a thumper I didn't know I needed to vent it afterwards thanks again I love your show very helpful
Hi George very good information I have watched a lot on your Chanel if the gentleman with the crushed can puts pressure it should go back to a simaler shape just an idea as I do motorcycle tanks that way that have been dented I am gathering all the bits for making a still as I am going to try it Danny
George, given your observations on pressure vs volume, immediately after distilling the thumper and pot will be under a lot of pressure. Therefore wouldn't it be dangerous to open the circuit between the pot and thumper? It seems you end up
There shouldn't be a large build up of pressure (most valves in these systems are set for 5 PSI). Breaking the circuit will balance the pressure outside as well as inside and this will even out with the temperature. George
i hear you brov. just like if you heated a microwave meal with the lid ajar till the food was bubbling . then put the lid back on to keep the heat in , then see what happens .. chers
Great information and another great video. Would love to see video on best practices to instill flavor in spirits. Thumper sounds kind of dangerous for that. Thank you for sharing George.
Vapor lock can happen, but that does not mean it's a closed system!!. You are skewing the definition of a closed system to include "sealing of a sytem due to vapor temp," a very specialized definition, but it wouldn't fly outside of a youtube video Distillation, and stills, are open systems, period, it's just a fact, and really there isn't a debate A pressure cooker is a closed system, and a still is not a pressure cooker.
I saw your post about being defensive. Sorry if I came across that way. I am never defensive. Just answered your comment about what you said I implied. I am always open to good discussion and always learn from them. George
Thank you for posting this its so obvious its easy too make that mistake and I'm actually hoping to teach myself to run a still and this would be an easy mistake.
@@rtucker0458 I'm doing a couple hard ciders and am about to start a mead to get my feet wet and as I can add to my equipment and gain confidence I'm going to keep expanding. I really wish I had got started sooner because I'm really enjoying this and have had a good run so far. I'm also researching what will work with how I plan to do things so I don't waste money on junk equipment because its easy to make mistakes and regret not knowing what you really need.
George, maybe an open or pot still cannot EXPLODE, but I did have an incident with an air still. It was not an explosion, but as I watched, the air still burped, and instead of unplugging it and let it cool, I pushed the lid back on. I no sooner took my hand off the cover and it erupted, shooting out 3/4 of it's one gallon contents. The happened because this pot still became a closed system. It had just run about 50ml of heads when it burped, and enough contents clogged the condenser allowing pressure to rise rapidly, it pushed the head up, I pushed it down, and now I need to repaint one kitchen wall.
Same happens with pressure cookers. Air still are very poor designs for what people are trying to do with them. I'd be surprised if you're the only one who had that happen.
Can't wait for yalls collaboration video! I was going to ask you before about benefits of mixing flavors during the runs as Jessie does in some videos, maybe yall can go over that when yall get together?
Few fast calculations to evaluate the negative pressure (vacuum) in the end of one run. Assuming 150 L boiler with a thumper and 100 L of 15% mash distilled to 85% abv product. Calculating the missing volume 'V' from the boiler - 'V' is the actual product volume: 0.85 x V = 0.15 x 100 V = 15 / 0.85 = 17.65 L The gas volume that can produce pressure difference is 'V1' V1 = 150 L - 100 L + V = 50 + 17.65 = 67.65 L The liquid (~ water) volume that has thermal expansion is 'W1' W1 = 100 L - V = 82.35 L The pressure (from initial 1 atm) for the boiler content caused by 92°C (365 K) to 27°C (300 K) cooling: - the water (ref: www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-specific-volume-weight-d_661.html ) volume 'W1' to 'W2' reduction 1.03737 [cm3/g] = W1 / mass; for 92°C 1.00348 [cm3/g] = W2 / mass; for 27°C mass = W1 / 1.03737 = W2 / 1.00348 W2 = W1 x ( 1.00348 / 1.03737 ) = 82.35 x 0.96733 = 79.66 L The volume reduction W1 - W2 = 2.7 L is from the water cooling in the boiler NOTE: That process is much slower than the gas, but we can include it to take in count the worst case - the gas (Combined Gas Law: calistry.org/calculate/combinedGasLaw ) (P1 x V1)/T1 = (P2 x V2)/T2 ; where P [mmHg], V [L], T [K] P1 = 1 [atm] = 760.0002 ; The initial pressure is equalized from the thumper end, the liquid mmH20 are neglected V1 = 67.65 ; V2 = 67.65 + 2.7 = 70.35 T1 = 365 ; T2 = 300 P2 = 600.68363 mmHg = 11.6 PSI = 0.8 bar = 80 KPa = 0.79 atm The produced vacuum is P2 - P1 = -0.21 atm = -21 KPa = -3 PSI Is that sounds so dangerous? Really?
So catching up with the community and have watched every video you have put out. I am running a 26 gal boiler with an enlarged pipe to my 8 gal thumper. I am running a 80/12/8 (JD formula) in the 26 gal boiler, and peach mash in the thumper. The finished product is not as peach as I would like. Wanted thought on adding mason jars as gin baskets between the thumper and worm? Was thinking I would run copper piping bt them thumper and worm; adding 2 jars in between.
Brilliant George! More info on thumpers is always appreciated! Using one to add flavor (essence) to my brandy is my intent...How about adding candies (like jolly rogers sour apple, or peach) to the liquid of the thumper? What level of liquid in my thumper?
I love u George and I learn so much. I wanted to ask you what do you think about the show moonshiners?? Do you think it's good information they give or not?? Something someone could go by?? Or not??
There are some real good lessons and some information provided but in my opinion even if you put all of the information together from that show the missing parts (most important) would leave you scratching your head. It is entertainment and not a how to production. By the way, I love the show and take great satisfaction from seeing some clips validate what we always talk about.
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing thank u George. I love watching you I learn so much it's so gracious of you to share your knowledge. I'm starting the hobby this summer
@JASON VOORHEES like the producer said it's real but reason cops can't bust them is because they got to catch tjem in the act and by the time show airs there done and moved. Just like a drug dealer there are drug shows. Same thing intervention and other shows that show drugs being manufactured they gotta be busted in mid run. So everyone has a opinion but I know it's real
Couldn't you put some sort of pressure relief valve just before the thumper that would trip before something goes wrong? That way you could get the benefit of adding the flavor without the danger? On a similar note... if you boiled down oak chips to make a strong tea and put that into the thumper could you get enough flavor right from the still to skip aging altogether? Or would that just not do the trick?
Question if I'm using my old 2 gallon pot still in-between my 5gal still and my condenser , using the 2 gal pot as my thumper, do you think everything will work right if I don't have one end going to the bottom of the 2 gal pot? I just have it hooked up to the lid and securely sealed
Does anyone know the optimal size of a thumper? There have been many debates and none of them make sense. Some say thumpers should be at least 1/3rd the size of the boiler, others say smaller or larger. If vapor in a tray column only needs to go through the small amount of liquid build up in order to obtain a purification stage, then why is there so much debate as to the size of a thumper? Ps. Very true about the pressures. Perhaps some people still pressure relief holes and stopper them to help avoid implosion or explosion.
1/3rd is a good rule-of-thumb. The thumping sound, especially in the beginning, is the vapor collapsing as it hits the cooler liquid - that is, it's being condensed. If the thumper is too small, the extra condensed liquid being accumulated can over fill the thumper and overflow into your product condenser. As the thumper liquid heats up, the amount of accumulation will become stabilized.
Well, yes and no and I know that sounds funny but the truth is you will vaporize anything in the thumper which adds to the original vapor condensing and this will happen until the thumper is no longer alcohol rich, then it is just a cleaner run from there on. So, yes it is but no it isn't. Hope that helps
I know a lot of guys like using an old fashioned thumper keg to increase proof but I use a column still, I find a column about 10 times more efficient and takes up way less room.
If you don't disconnect the thumper the kettle will not drain and you would create a partial vacuum by draining what you could from it. Could compound the problem.
Hi George. Thanks for your video, really appreciate the time you put into explaining the art. Question though, if I run the thumper only with water, will I retain much less flavour than running it with an alcohol rich fluid? Thanks again
