Since last two videos I get the feeling that wizard's staff is a sort of "licence" to do magic. And if someone like Saruman is using his staff to do bad things, that license can be taken back.
Always thought or just assumed that Staves were just an extension of themselves. Not completely needed for magic, but were focusing points for it for the 5 bound to the psychical realm.
Great videos and a fascinating subject. But, yeah, we're on the same page with regard to how the staves of the Wizards seem to work: a staff is either a receptacle for a small part of a Wizard's power qua Maia or a conduit through which a small part of his native Maia power can be exercised. Either way, the staff functions as both a tool and a check. And as I said in my comments on the previous video, I wonder if there is any similarity of "technique" between how the staves work and how the Ring works. In both cases a Maia is exercising their native power over the physical world via a physical object, as if that power is only able to interact with the world because it is invested into a piece of the world. Obviously Sauron was not limited by the Valar in the way that the Istari were; which makes me wonder if Sauron was simply making use of an extreme version of the "power investiture" technique.
I get the feeling that the staff is a symbol of office. Saruman could not touch Gandalf's staff because he had quit his job as the White - i.e. the head of the Wizards' Council, but Gandalf the White could destroy Saruman's staff not because of his personal power but because of his position as the White. Destroying the Staff is like defrocking a priest or taking a policeman's shield.
This was interesting stuff, your idea is to some extent the opposite of my idea of a physical reminder of the innate power of these Maia, your idea of a restriction of the power has me thinking. Thanks
Sounds like a good line of reasoning to me. Tolkien doesn't give us the exact steps and amounts of "Making Wizards' Staves for Dummies" but I imagine something of the maiar had to be invested into each of their particular staves. Not the same as Sauron but related. So... If a wizard had no other choice but to use another wizard's staff would, for example, Gandalf have different limitations using Radagast's staff or even see the world differently? Also in regards to Melian, the apple doesn't seem to fall far from the tree. For the love of Thingol, Melian the Maia took on the form of the Children of Illuvatar (took her long enough) and Elwe was enhanced because of his relationship with her. Luthien seems to me to repeat what her Mom did, but Thingol was less generous than Eru had been. I have to think Eru could have felt it was step down for his maia to "limit" herself to a demi-elf. I don't think he did. I wonder if Eru didn't specially watch over those even specially work with those who 'limit' or sacrifice themselves for the larger good. Gandalf and even Galadriel, case in point. For that matter even Frodo... simply wonderings...
Or, maybe they really were just big sticks. A walking staff for an old man as Gandalf put it. A common thing for a traveler to have. Useful too, you can do so many things with good long sticks.
Very interesting stuff. I guess that encouraging immortal beings to indulge in what’s in it for me thinking is not likely to succeed the same as with mortal beings.
I would love to know who made the staves for the Istari. Aulë? Also what were they made of? Could Aulë actually maim or kill one of Yavanna's trees to make them?🤔
@@jonathonfrazier6622 The Entwives were never in Aman, but unless they were reembodied after they were slaughtered during Sauron's scorched earth strategy to stop the Alliance from advancing.
We might also include the Three as possibly using this same technique. I believe Tolkien said somewhere that the fundamental intent behind the Elven rings was to stop history. The power of preservation, of keeping things strong or unchanged through time, seems to be something the Elves can naturally exercise; it's part of their nature, though obviously that power in them is limited. Perhaps by making the Three, Celebrimbor was able to extend his own personal power of preservation, extending that power to parts of the physical world that would otherwise be untouchable; and anyone using one of the Three could draw upon that power, and perhaps even add it to power of their own that they might possess. That's how Galadriel, for instance, might have been able to significantly slow the passage of time in Lothlorien.
Are you suggesting Celebrimbor permanently diminished his own power by creating the Three, somewhat like Sauron did with the One Ring? That would be an interesting idea.
I don't know. It's a possibility. And it's a possibility that would fit with the idea that a masterwork, once made, cannot be copied or duplicated. That was so with Feanor and the Silmarils; it could just as easily be so with Celebrimbor and the Rings. But if it is so, Sauron took it to such an insane degree that he ended up pouring most of his own power into his creation.
All I can think about is; where was Gandalf’s staff when he jumped off of Isengard? You may have discussed this and I may have forgotten what the books say. My mind is not what it was..
Melian's embodiment achieved one additional, very unique thing (in terms of the "history" of the Ainur now on Arda. She bore a child from her union with Thingol. Rather than speculate in terms of the capabilities of angelic beings that many fans love to chase their tails over, I will assume that she achieved this the typical way, through sexual intercourse, and her physical body probably worked in the same fashion as that of other Eldarin women (which I will also go out on a limb assuming that was the model she followed when she pursued her very singular goal of enchanting and pairing off with Thingol). Lest fans cry foul I will simply point them to the book of Genesis and the infamous verse of the "sons of God descending and mating with the daughters of Man"...and that Elohim/Yahweh appears in human form in his fateful meetings with Abraham at his tent (where he announces the fate of the cities on the plain and the future motherhood of Sarai(Sarah))...Every angel was once a god, and every god was more like a creature of creation (with something more as well) than not. All that ineffable asexuality attributed to angels came along much much later and was pretty much invented by theologians. Being a divine creature never prevented Olympian or Aesir/Vanir from impregnating humans, Titans, Giants, and animals...but then these old gods weren't alienated basket cases like the Valar had become in their self-imposed exile.
new theory---- morgoth bred orcs by forced parings of balrogs and elves. the evil maia and the act of rape being the source of the offspring's "corruption" (inb4 no children born of rape irl aren't evil)
Raises the questions- When Gandalf broke his staff at Khazad -dum, he still had access to power to (eventually) slay the balrog. When Saruman’s staff was destroyed by Gandalf, Saruman only had his voice to fall back on. Why the difference? Also- if the staff was a mere implement- a walking stick- why was it necessary to destroy it to break the bridge? And finally, was Saruman’s power loss due to the staff breaking, or due to being kicked out of the order? It may be that looking for consistency is a fool’s errand. Not sure why the strike-through happened here… Anyway, perhaps the best answer to “how does magic work” is “quite well, thank you”.
My theory is that when Eru Ilúvatar sent Gandalf back as Gandalf the White, his power was so enhanced that he became able to kick Saruman out of the order and effectively break his power. Before, neither would have been sufficiently powerful to do such a thing. During the confrontation at Orthanc, Saruman shows no sign of being fearful or intimidated by Gandalf until Gandalf literally forces him to return to the balcony. Saruman clearly didn't think Gandalf could do such a thing. I agree that Gandalf's breaking the staff in Moria is a problem with our lore master's idea. If having the staff is necessary to be in the order of Istari then that would mean Gandalf effectively kicked himself out. That's also puzzling to me as Gandalf broke the staff in service of his mission in Middle-Earth. Even with Glamdring and Narya (and I'm not sure Narya is actually useful in combat), I still think Gandalf would need access to a fair amount of magic to bring down Durin's Bane.
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@@TolkienLorePodcast I love your Wizards and staves series! You completely changed my perspective on them just being some things that wizards might carry in any fantasy/mythological setting. Tolkien definitely put thought into their functions in the greater Legendarium. Excellent work!
think of tolkien. total nerd! he has these maiar sent as old men (uses merlin trope-- good patriotic nerd). can't have them at full power. his nerd brain thinks "the riddle of the sphinx!" and there that creature who walks with three legs in the evening (OF THE ELVES IN MIDDLE EARTH) was formed
