The way toll houses are sometimes described make it seem like demons have authority. I think it may be likely our angels will contend with the demons but some quotes make it sound like Christians really should fear death because they have to make it through this legal system in the sky. I don’t see how that fits with the message of Christ defeating death and having been given all authority.
This is exactly what I think. I wonder if it is possible to be orthodox without believing in this because nearly everything else they believe in I can understand.
@@ambrose9968 We don't believe demons have any authority other than that which God has given them. This is a basic and prior belief to the doctrine of tollhouses. So no, you can believe in the tollhouses and still understand that if the demons have any authority to condemn a man, they are mere representatives carrying out Christ's sentence.
@@ambrose9968 While no, this is not actually dogma, nor part of the creed, or any dogma of any council so you do not need to believe it- if you truly want to understand this read the soul after death by Fr. Seraphim Rose. The tollhouses are something every man goes through, but for Christians the only danger is lack of faith. The Satan is the accuser, his emissaries seek to bring up every sin we have committed so that we despair and lose our faith, which is what actually damns us. While yes our sins and good deeds are weighed in a symbolic manner as told in these visions/experiences- praying to Christ or the Theotokos will get you through them. Remember all sins are forgiven except the one Christ spoke of. It is a test of the strength of our Faith and closeness to God, and it is only the small judgement- not the final, which is why the Church prays for the reposed faithful in the first place- in case they did in fact lose faith and fail this test. It is the final judgement where our eternal position is decided, and that is when our Lord and his Saints will judge our closeness to God's image in faith and fruit. Do not despair. Every sin confessed are not given to the Demons to test us with, and if you seek to repent, confess, and commune- believing in Christ and making him Lord of your life you will be saved.
@@ambrose9968however do remember that God is omnipresent and so he’s there in the moment that you are passing through, 2 is he let’s Satan do certain things like in Job the he allows demons for a reason and we know Satan and the demons are known to be accusers, we also know the Angels have jobs and they defend us, there’s imagery of spiritual battles happening all the time around us, what do you think they are fighting over? Our souls! This is why we have guardian angels too. So remember 1. God is present in the judgement, although there’s still a particular judgement by Christ. 2. Demons and angels are all around us and fighting over our souls while we’re alive, also they are doing that because Christ is allowing them too, they are serving a purpose for him whether they want to or not.
@@ambrose9968 Do remember that God is omnipresent and so he’s there in the moment that you are passing through, 2 if he let’s Satan do certain things like in Job then he allows demons for a reason and we know Satan and the demons are known to be accusers, we also know the Angels have jobs and they defend us, there’s imagery of spiritual battles happening all the time around us in scripture, what do you think they are fighting over? Our souls! This is why we have guardian angels too. So remember 1. God is present in the judgement, although there’s still a particular judgement by Christ. 2. Demons and angels are all around us and fighting over our souls while we’re alive, also they are doing that because Christ is allowing them too, they are serving a purpose for him whether they want to or not.
One of my personal favorite bad arguments that I see come up a lot is “it’s a Slavic tradition, nobody believed that before” which I find odd considering the biggest group we cite for tollhouses in the pre-schism Christian world are Greek
@johnsambo9379 that's like saying that Christ is mithras or some ancient Egyptian god like Isis. A correlation or similarity does not mean that one took from the other. If anything, another religion expressing something Christian more likely means they stole it from Christianity, for all deception is a derivation of the truth. Also, I am still a catechumen. Please pray for me :)
Never has there been such an age of false teachers as this pitiful century, so rich in material gadgets and so poor in mind and soul. - Fr. Seraphim Rose
@@johnsambo9379Former homosexual who repented of his sins as an Orthodox monk. So far as I am aware, he was never in his life excommunicated or declared a heretic by the Church.
Yea same have to admit the Fr.Rose book kind of took my for a loop, But I think overall it’s an interesting topic and certainly shows in some icons like ladder of divine ascent or the last judgement iconography. The dormition icon even alludes to “toll house.” Theology well to an extent. ✌️
St. Theophan the Recluse said the quote about scoffers passing through regardless, he also said those who disbelieve in tollhouses have the lowest chances of passing through.
Caer Bannog... Thank you for this. St. Theophan the Recluse is one of my "favorite" saints! Could you please give the exact reference where he says that those who don't believe in the toll houses will have the most difficulty in passing them? That would be very helpful to me. Thank you again for this comment! 😊👍
@@NotScotus Dogma is not limited to Ecumenical Councils. Dogma can also be revealed through Liturgical prayers and hymns of the Church, Hagiography, and Writings of the Fathers. Moreover, Ecumenical Councils were called to settle controversial theological matters in the Church. The Toll houses were never controversial.
It's curious that you cite Young's Literal translation for the verse to claim that the "they" mentioned are the tollhouses. Robert Young was a Protestant of the Free Church of Scotland which was a Calvinist denomination. As a Protestant I don't take issue with that but why didn't you use the NKJV translation the Orthodox Study Bible chose to include? Perhaps because there is no "they" mentioned? "But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?" Luke 12:20 NKJV But let's do one better let's go to the koine Greek text itself: "Eipen de auto ho Theos, Aphron! taute te nykti ten psychen sou apaitousin apo sou ha de hetoimasas tini estai?" "ten psychen sou apaitousin apo sou" Literally, "the soul of you is required of you." No, mention of any "they" anywhere.
I actually think the Toll Houses concept can be further tied back to at least the 5th Century BC within Jewish Merkavah Mysticism, where the Mystic attempts to ascend through the levels of heaven to the throne room of God. During the ascent, there are fearsome Angels who try to block their path and test the Mystic's knowledge and righteousness. Many scholars believe St. Paul was a Merkavah mystic, as his language about spiritual bodies and ascending to the third heaven is straight out of Merkavah Mysticism. Here a Jewish scholar discusses the issue: m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-I8LBP4Y-hRM.html I think the concept of the Toll Houses has been in Christianity from the beginning, and it was simply removed from most traditions over time.
The Octoechos mentioning the tollhouses is the most irrefutable proof. Fathers have various opinions, devotional canons are personal in nature, but the Octoechos is the foundation of all Orthodox liturgy. The Octoechos is dogma.
@@hughmungus9739 there isn't a readily available online Octoechos but most parishes should have this book. Ask your parish choir director or head chanter if you can see it. See Tone 2 Friday Vespers and Tone 6 Sunday Midnight Office Canon to the Trinity. Also in the Horologion, the Saturday Midnight Office's Prayer of St. Eustratius.
@@age234 I appreciate you saying where to look at. I've personally never prayed the midnight office on Saturday probably like a lot of people. I opened both the Anthologion and HTM book of hours it checks out. I thought the prayer would be a vague reference but it's actually pretty clear.... Thanks
@@age234not the version of that canon I have from HTM. As for the compline prayer, it asks for deliverance from “the darkness for the unknown and known sins amassed by me,” and to be protected from “the dark countenances of evil spirits” as well as “the hand of the prince of this world.” If these are toll houses, fair enough. But it’s certainly not at all explicit.
It'd be nice if you could do a video on "Dogma, doctrine, and praxis". I believe these 3 are interconnected, but not interchangeable terms. I'm asking for this because my Priest insists that Tollhouses do not fit the definition of "dogma" - but they are true and to be believed. It seems like most folk assume that if something is not dogma - that means we are free to paddle our own opinions about it.
One only needs to read some of the services during Lent and Holy week to see that Toll Houses are true, yet many who know the truth are bad apologetics and come off as gnostic. Toll houses are real , the soul will battle the demons after die but all the other add on stuff on stages, and demons having more power than christ or the saints is too much.
I haven't even seen the video and I'm agreeing :). I listened to Bp Lazarus or what his name is, and I was in error. Most of the arguments against are strowman. Fr. Dumitru Stăniloaie explains plainly the doctrine of the soul after death, the demons and angels at the particular judgement in the 3rd volume of dogmatic theology. Thx David
i think tollhouses are a great reason we need to have correct faith and reasoning. If we die in a state were we are not so close to the holy spirit, what if a demon was to pretend to be God and was to tell us he was a unitarian? Are we so weak in faith that we grift to towards this false worldview or that we secretly believed this all along and we condemn ourselves to hell? No thats why we need to be both deeply connected to God and have correct Orthodox theology
I don’t necessarily dispute the idea of toll houses or at least the notion of a journey of the soul with certain trials, but I find the use of Luke 12:24 to be somewhat of a bad reading. According to multiple translations, it appears to be referring to the rich man’s physical possessions and who will possess them after his death - ie “what good will material goods to you when your soul is taken from you and your body is surrendered to the grave?”
Good topic, thanks for covering. I think Fr Matthew Rafael Johnson has one of the best analyses of this. You should check out his ideas on this. Pretty good
He does. Some people harshly criticise him but I really liked his analysis. People can become very prideful on this subject, on both sides of it. I spoke to a Romanian nun who told me that while yes, it is indeed mentioned in the funeral service and in the canon to the guardian angel and other places, that it has several different interpretations depending on which of the fathers you are reading. Some like to say, "well the earliest fathers all mentioned it..." but this is only half true. They did, but they didn't all mention the same things about it. Some people like to go, "Oh!! He said demons battle for the soul upon the hour of death...toll houses, ha!" But that is not exactly the same thing. Nobody ever said the demons of the air don't try to accuse the soul, the same demons in one's life who tried this. Duh. But there are aspects of it, especially the things that came from St. Theodora's dream, that simply do not add up. Some people look for excuses to prove the toll houses in the most vague, most obscure references in much the same way that people try to disprove them. As Dr. Johnson also pointed out, in some versions of it, the demons can actually accuse the soul of things it has already long since confessed and repented of. That literally makes no sense, considering we are taught that demons cannot see these particular things, things that have already been confessed. Then, in other versions, they can't. So it doesn't always line up consistently.
@@NotScotus something doesn't need to in an Ecumenical Council for it to be dogma. Toll houses are in our church services, so they are dogma. Any Saint who spoke about toll houses believed in them. There is not a single Saint who rejects the teaching.
@@paisios2541 Not every saint taught the toll houses. And just because a saint taught something does not mean the faithful is required to believe it as dogma. Saints were humans too and in error often. Also, to say that something does not need to be confirmed by an ecumenical council in order to be a dogma demeans the very purpose of ecumenical councils in the first place. I've never heard any mention of toll houses in any services, but if they are, it is probably not to the extent that you think it is.
@@derekward3512 what Saint says to reject the toll houses? Why do we even have this sort of bare minimum mentality where even if a bunch of saints teach something we don't trust them and we don't want to believe it unless we feel as though we are absolutely required to? Why don't we just trust our Saints and accept what they say in simplicity like children who accept the teachings of their parents? If many Saints tell you to believe something and there are no Saints who tell you to not believe that then why on Earth would you reject it? Ecumenical councils merely confirm dogmas that were already believed by Christians when they are challenged by heresies, it wasn't like nobody believed in the Trinity, or would have told you that it's not Dogma to believe in the Trinity before the first ecumenical council. No one would have said you're "not required" to believe in the Trinity before it was defined in Council. If we only have to believe the things that are in Ecumenical Councils then how did any Christians have any idea what Orthodoxy was for the first 300 years of the Church? Did no-one have any idea whether or not the veneration of icons was an essential part of Orthodoxy for 700 years? Even having this whole mentality of what you are and are not required to believe is very legalistic and I really don't think is an orthodox way of thinking. If Saint paisios and St John maximovitch and St Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Ephraim of Arizona all believe in the toll house then why isn't that good enough for you and if you're following the Saints then which Saint is telling you to reject what those other saints were saying or are you just following your own mind? The rejection of the toll houses is a very new and modern thing and is mostly just within the church in America so who knows we could have a council sometime in the future where we because people have now been rejecting this commonly-held Orthodox believe, we're now going to define it more officially and precisely in a council, the church can always do that.
Do remember that God is omnipresent and so he’s there in the moment that you are passing through, 2 if he let’s Satan do certain things like in Job then he allows demons for a reason and we know Satan and the demons are known to be accusers, we also know the Angels have jobs and they defend us, there’s imagery of spiritual battles happening all the time around us in scripture, what do you think they are fighting over? Our souls! This is why we have guardian angels too. So remember 1. God is present in the judgement, although there’s still a particular judgement by Christ. 2. Demons and angels are all around us and fighting over our souls while we’re alive, also they are doing that because Christ is allowing them too, they are serving a purpose for him whether they want to or not.
So during this period, do we have the willful authority to embrace or eschew damnation?? Our will after death retains the authority to accept or refuse salvation?? And as you stated, feelings of unworthiness can damn us?
This heresy really needs to be put to rest by the church once and for all. "If one is apart from Christ there is no ascension. If they are in Christ the toll houses are redundant."
The amount of modernists denying the toll houses is insane. Where are they getting their nonsense from? Priests and bishops from seminaries with modernist teachers?
Demons cannot read our minds. Demons cannot judge the postmortem souls of humans. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (John 5 :22 NKJV). Monks and nuns are taught to rebuke even an apparent manifestation of Jesus, knowing a demon can appear as an angel of light. Jesus respects such extreme caution. We absolutely do not have to believe in toll-houses, nor do we need to worry about demons judging us. Saint Gregory of Nyssa mentions toll-houses, but he also says all souls will eventually be saved. Both toll-houses and apokatastasis are stretched to extremes by proponents and opponents.
Puhalo has the much more complete view on till houses. Your disregarding all of the content he shares using THE GENETIC FALLACY shows that youll probably never ascend above the level of doody lay apologist.
Concerning the book published by St Anthonys: An exterminator comes to your house and rids it of vermin. The qualifier is that at your death, they will return. Whether he tells you this before or after his intervention depends on whether you want your money back or go to court. This door stop is a rather exhaustive display illustrating what length some orthodox will go to fetishize the fathers over bibical writ and turn them into infallible Christ's. Taken out of time and context, not to mention dubious sources, they continue the viscious promotion of this cult revived by Seraphim Rose . This obvious denial of not only the Incarnation but also the Glorious Resurrection of XC boggles the mind . People who suggest that this metaphor may as well promote porn as a way of preparing for one's sacramental marriage bed. The depth of neurosis and sheer narcissistic and spiritual delusion in promoting this deamonic nonsense boggles the mind.
I do wonder isn’t Jesus our advocate before God in the judgement over the angels? Or am I thinking too much from a position penal substitution mindset by saying that?
Watch Orthodox banter with bojan, his videos on that are very direct and informative, your spiritual father is right in saying so! It comes down to what people mean when they say tollhauses. Will demons accuse us like they already do? Yes, they accuse us day and night but that’s it, you won’t have to go through literal aerial booths where you’re interrogated by some demon, you owe them NOTHING. If by tollhouses someone means they get accused by demons like in the court of law then yes, like they already do, they’re evil. But they can’t do anything other than that, God is the judge. He would never allow them to have any kind of power in that sense over you, focus on God and pray.
He presented them earlier in the video, please watch again. Also, don't disregard the words of the Saints/Church Fathers. Because of their holy works and councils you have the full complete Bible to read today. God loves the Saints too
@@Cobruh_Commander the book I read was written in Serbian, and far as I’m aware it’s not printed in English. I believe it was called “Most Holy Theotokos Save Us” (it’s been a while) It had the blessings of our hierarchs. I’ll give you a shortened summary: The days leading up to the Theotokos falling asleep she spent all her time in prayer that demons would not take her, and Christ reassured her with The Dormition. (Obviously the book goes into a lot more detail an explanation, and concreted my belief in the Toll Houses)
@@starcityoldy I’d like to point out that you have the burden of proof. But I will say a little... if Mary had to be rescued by Christ to veto the toll houses, why should one even pray to her? She wasn’t powerful enough, faithful enough, sinless enough, etc, to get by the toll houses herself?!?!?!?
@@traviswilson36 Thanks for the correction. Sometimes grammerly will choose a different spelling so that one I’ll blame on grammerly. I’ll fix it though.
I’m sorry but the interpretations of the verses that were used are a huge stretch. Ephesians 6 does not talk about the afterlife, it’s giving us instructions for spiritual warfare in this life against the dark powers of the earth, not the afterlife because it’s never even mentioned. The parable in Luke 12:20 was a point by Jesus on why greediness is foolish. “They will require” does not imply that we have to face Fallen Angels after we die. I don’t understand how an interpretation of toll houses can come from that
The parable in Luke 12,20 is a reflexion of jewish taught that satan or "satanas" did require your soul to God, acusing your sins before him and claiming your soul, you can see that on Job 1-2; Zachariah 3, but that is the role of the accuser demons had before God, not the demons in "tollhouses". The interpretation made by the "orthodox" ignore context, old testament and jewish taught.
@@MrDavicovic But how? If you’re already saved, then there’s no way that the Devil can pull you away from God AFTER death. That’s the problem with this doctrine, it implies that you can lose your salvation after death.
As far as it being ludicrous to take it literally and nobody doing that, I just listened to a lecture given by Priestmonk Kosmas saying that angels come to meet the soul at the moment of death and then escort the soul up through the air towards heaven past demons who shout accusations of sin. He was also saying that a soul damned to hell can go to heaven instead if someone still alive makes a donation in their name, which seems a lot like the Catholic indulgences to me. As an inquirer it scared me that I've been wasting my time looking into Orthodoxy. This is the exact sort of fanciful nonsense that drove me away from the Catholics with their Marian apparitions and clown masses. I thought I was going towards legitimate, serious Christian belief with Orthodoxy and I'm disappointed to find such absurdities. I hope the people who take this literally are in the minority.
Brother as someone who’s been studying Eastern Orthodoxy for many weeks. A lot of evidence to believe in EO but I do agree toll houses thing is weird. I don’t know what to make it. I get a lot of mixed responses online about it. I continue to keep learning, searching, praying for others. I know God is faithful. Let’s continue to love, forgive, pray for others and live a righteous life. God bless.
Col 2 states that Christ has "disarmed the principalities and powers" and 2 Cor 5 states that when we are absent from the body we are AT HOME WITH the Lord. Toll house cult has no response to those verses.
@@cyprianperkins Many saints believed in universal salvation and other non orthodox beliefs, no one claims they have perfect theology, nor is it required for salvation or sainthood depending on how extreme it is.
@@garrettfricke4076 actually, not many Saints believed in universal salvation, whereas the toll houses are throughout the writings of the Saints, including some of the most important of the fathers. They are also found in many of the prayers and liturgical materials of the church, showing that they have been accepted as correct theology.
Non of the Fathers of the church ever mentioned this heresy. None of the fathers ever mentioned that the Theotokos was aftaid of the demons in the air. It's the stupidest idea anyone could have come up with! But hey it's the Century worst mind set, where we absorb non sense as Dogma!
@@MrDavicovic really!? Can he bring the REAL text that he quoted from!? Not oh that book mentioned that So and So said that Toll houses are true. For instance in the case of St. Anthony the Great after so much digging we discovered that the story of him saying seeing a huge guy is not as accurate as mentioned in the books that wants to prove Toll houses. As for the saying of St. Paul, it's lousy enough. He is not mentioning after death, but this life. Don't forget we have to sanctify the water too. If you ever read St. John Chrysostom you will see that in No way ever he would say that Toll Houses are true. He will be contradicting himself. It makes sense to read the Fathers of the Church and now their thinking so someone doesn't make fun of your beliefs and attribute what ge says to the father. We will try to translate Dr. Adnan Trabulsi lectures (10 or more of around 2 hours more) defeating Toll Houses heresy from each and every angle. It airs now in Arabic every other Saturday. Toll houses defenders in the Arabic Speaking church has been defeaded. They promised a video defending and defeading Dr. Trabulsi but they never did anything, as there is nothing they can't say any more. Definitely we are not a challenge but in prooving Orthodox thinking when it comes to this stupid heresy, no actually it's a blasphemy!
@@IyadJabbour_thePhArMaCiSt Just a lot of supposition about St. Anthony the Great and St. John of Chrysostom. I guess the Liturgy talking about the toll houses is blasphemy too? Such an idiotic statement.
@@MrDavicovic can you bring the part of liturgy you are speaking about? Cause it doesn't exist. As for the part in the Great Compline (the Supplication to the Theotokos), I would like you to re-read it again.
@@MrDavicovic by the wayas I remember from Jesus sayings, neither in the Parable of the rich and Lazarus nor when he talked to the theif on the cross did he mention any of this heresies. Am sure he missed reading the fathers!!
They are not theologoumenon for sure - they are real. They are definitely genuine. But they don’t matter - I said it. The exact format by which we are judged in particular judgement doesn’t matter. Theosis is what matters.
Furthermore, theosis is the image of the toll houses on Earth. Our focus must be toward theosis and making peace with our guardian angel in this life before we can worry about whether or not we may pass through the toll houses and arrive at the terrifying judgement
If they didn't matter they would've disappeared from tradition, instead our saints defended them. They are a foundational part of our understanding as Christians of the spiritual battle while we are here on earth, and those who's spiritual eyes have been opened attest to the veracity of this battle. It is not up to our judgement whether or not these things are important when their importance in so clearly demonstrated by our holy Fathers.
@@FireurchinProductionsByzantium I agree, the Ladder of Divine Ascent, which represents theosis, does carry imagery similar to the means by which we will be judged temporally which is toll-houses. My point was just that they’re aren’t a dogma to break our back over, an Orthodox Christian does not need to know about the toll house in order to properly prepare to pass them. It’s good to know the truth, but at the end of the day Christ is just & merciful, He will judge us holistically based on our deeds. Toll houses need no special preparation, in order to pass them we just need theosis & God’s grace, and to live the Christian life.
@@Seraphim_Works We agree that they were believed by Christians for millennia, we agree that they were mentioned by over 120 saints of the Church. They are definitely a reality. But you say they are a fundamental part of our Faith, if so then why was there zero attempt to make them dogma throughout the 2000 years of the Church, despite them existing as a belief? Why were they never brought up in any Council or even local synod? The only explanation for this silence about the issue among the Councils & canons is if the Saints & Church Fathers simply decided they were not important enough to be dogmatized. They’re not the two natures of Christ. Like I said before they’re definitely a reality, they are to be defended against the attacks of thoughtless people. But they simply aren’t a fundamental part of our Faith. They overall play a relatively minor role, just like the belief that the soul stays on Earth a few days after death.
David Erhan, Jonathan Pageau, Fr. Herrs ; what they forgot I will never know. However, they all have a wierd evangelical , quasi fundamentalist , new age bent to their beliefs . Heers with his whole heretical schtick concerning rebaptism, Pageau with his new age symbolist schtick reminiscent of the Victorians and Erhan with his "sola scriptura" reading not of the bible but of the fathers.
Toll Houses imply that Jesus is a liar. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. You are relying on prayers of others and your good works to survive each trial. Christ says it is HIS power and he will not let anyone snatch us from his hand. Please explain how this is consistent with the words of our God and Saviour.
You bring up good points. Jesus also said to the Thief that he will be with him in Paradise, he never said that he would have to go through spirit realm inhabited by fallen angels smh
@@MrDavicovic never mentioned OSAS. But Christ has power over the devil and demons and promised us that he would not let them snatch us. If we are on the right path we don't ever have to worry about fake toll houses because of Christ's power, not your fasting and prayers of others.
We didn’t ask for existence. Yet they gave us existence. And now we have to suffer not only in this life but also after this life in an even scarier and more painful way. Given these circumstances I refuse to have children.
"Christianity arrived before paganism had died out, leading to the amalgamation of beliefs and rituals that still defines the spiritual life of modern Orthodoxy. The earliest Christians appeared in the 2nd century, and after the religion was state sanctioned in the Roman Empire, in the 4th century, the number of neophytes grew. Like everywhere else, the new religion needed to win the hearts of the heathens, so many compromises were made. Old Thracian, Greek and Roman deities morphed into brand-new Christian saints and pagan feasts received a Christian makeover. Ancient Thracian and Roman shrines to the water deities became springs blessed by the Mother of Christ, the Thracian God Rider shape shifted into St George, the nameless Thracian Goddess became St Marina, and so on and so forth. The list is long." All kinds of pagan beliefs morphed into various Orthodox cultures . It seems that the Toll Houses resemble the exact afterworld of the Egyptians. Many believe it's popularity in Orthodoxy enters the church via the Bogomils. It is gnostic at its very core.
@@randallsunderland4331 where do they spatially exist? For example “the third Heaven” is a spatial location. Where is the spatial location of these testing spirits?
In my experience so far I only ever hear this claim from people outside the church or still relatively newly having looked into the Church, it's history, teachings and doctrine. Meanwhile I've heard multiple fathers speak against this wave of New Age ideologies and heresies INCLUDING Gnosticism. In my own personal experience as well I've noticed a trend of Gnosticism being pushed in RU-vid recommended with sensationalist thumbnails. Pair this with it's history tied to Freemasons and their connections to every group actively perverting and destroying not just the west but even the Catholic Church (I'm not Catholic) and you should be beginning to draw conclusions...
@@NotScotus your tiring, stop making that same comment, you were already proven a liar on that other comment thread. Orthodoxy is not Catholicism with a top down man made power structure that declares dogma from a counsel or seat only.
