What I like about Go is the smaller boards and handicap system means that an inexperienced player can still get something out of the game, whereas chess you can gen annihilated in 30 seconds
Love the love for Tak! The online community is super great and there are tons of tournaments for people of all skill levels. I don't get to play much in person, but I do play a ton on playtak. If you aren't on there already, you definitely should be.
I know it’s not for everyone, but I enjoy the probability element of backgammon. It’s history like so many in this list is fascinating. Also given your list look up Wana and Abalone they seem in your wheel house.
I've never played Backgammon but it looks to be right up my alley. I just got into a bit of an argument on Reddit about the definition of abstract games with a popular Tak youtuber who will go unnamed. He made it very clear that abstract games must be perfect information while I held the belief that the definition is more broad and that it has to do more with their themeless nature. He rejected Backgammon as an abstract which still doesn't sit right with me. It is a topic for a future video perhaps! I love Wana btw. I'll have to check out Abalone. Thanks for the comment!
@@jonathanauffarth5646 I thought perfect information and randomness were two different things. Like scrabble the bag tiles are randomness, but the players hands are hidden information. So backgammon is perfect information (but random), whereas something like Stratego is nonrandom but has hidden information.
I've taken go a lot of places, I made my own folding board from a5 art board taped together so it folded into a thick novel size and out to a full sized board on one side, and a small practice board on the other. I managed to get a couple of people to play me, but mathematicians love the game. the first person to beat me (a completer beginner) was a mathematician. work out which friends are mathematicians, and ask them to play.
TZAAR is my favorite of the whole project. Shobu is so good once you realize the roles your two groups separated by the rope must fill. I also have Tak but don't get to play as much as I should...
I really liked this list. I have played a lot of the ancient games so im trying to learn more contemporary ones. I love shogi, personally a lot more than chess so I strongly agree with what you said, amazing game. Go will always be my #1 board game but I would love to try tak. I would recommend trying xiangqi sometime, chinese chess. No one really likes it at first coming from western chess because it feels like a nerfed version but because the pieces are limited it relies on a much more clever and subtle play. Ends up being beautiful because of its limitations not in spite of them. Janggi is good too. I would recommend hive as well as its one of my favorites. But thanks for such a great list I have a lot of games to check out
Go is the best. Glad to see love for Tak which I agree is also great. Chess should definitely be on any best abstract list (your personal favorite is more subjective though).
"Best" is equally subjective. This could have been called "Best (in my opinion)...", but the parenthetical part is implied. I love abstracts, but I'm not crazy about Chess. I definitely appreciate it's historical significance, and its depth, I don't consider it one of the top 10 bests, as there are easily 10 that I'd put above it.
@offearthgames It's the best according to you. That's the same as your favourite, but it's catchier (as you said). For me, Hive and Homeworlds would be #1 and #2 respectively. Not sure about after that. Probably a GIPF game.
…Despite never playing any of these games, I agree with almost everything you said. I’m kinda surprised that abalone and Arimaa is not here tho, but I still think you deserve a sub.
Had a lot to say but reading the other comments I now realize there is little point. I'll just say that this is a list of your own personal favorites, and clearly not a list of the ten greatest abstracts of all time A list of the top ten abstract strategy games of all time by more objective standards: the games are chosen for longevity, cultural significance, the existence of a large player base, the existence of a literature. In some cases, very closely related games are listed together. Chess Go Shogi Xiang Qi Checkers/Draughts Reversi/Othello GoMoku/Pente/Renju Mancala/Wari Fanorona Abalone
Thanks! You've brought some really cool games to my attention. I like this a lot, despite disagreeing with you a bit about Yinsh. I'm with the concensus on this one and find it the best of the GIPF project. It just has this incredible sense of game progression as the board slowly fills up, in addition to one of the best catch-up mechanisms I've ever seen. What's more, with a physical copy, Tzaar has a relatively tedious setup while Yinsh is all gameplay from the first second.
I also love abstracts, so I enjoyed this list and the new games on it that I need to try out. I also strongly recommend anything by Dieter Stein (Urbino, Tintas, Fendo, Ordo, etc.) He and Chris Burm can do no wrong in their game designs., and his website tells the rules for each of them with great illustrations to help. Home Worlds by Loony Labs is also a surprisingly great game and really worth checking out. And one other one that gets a lot of play for us is Aqualin-slightly less elegant in that it’s not 100% perfect information, as there is a small tile pool to pull from that continually gets refilled to six, but it’s a fantastic, cut-throat game disguised in a cute package.
I'll shoutout Simplexity. It's connect 4 with the additional wrinkle that each checker has a shape, in addition to its color. So you can win with 4 in a row of your color or your shape. And half of your checkers are the enemy shape. So as the game progresses you have to start making moves that sort of help your opponent (your color, their shape). Or you could just greedily play out all 10 of your shape and hope you win before then.
Abstracts being "boring" and "dry" falls flat with me. Hobby board games often go overboard with theme, either to the point where the gameplay completely lets the theme down, or the theme is just a cringy coat of paint that feels like pandering. Abstracts drop the veneer and expose the purity of gameplay and design underneath. There is a reason Go is described as beautiful. Perfection is achieved when there is nothing more to take away.
Chinese Xiangqi has a similar problem to Shogi, the characters being represented with similar looking Kanji tiles. (To some other people, of course. I took a first in Oriental languages at Cambridge) not only that, but then the 'same' pieces on opposing sides can also be different! With the 'king' on black side being 將 or 将 (The General) and the red has 帥 or 帅 (The Marshall) other pieces are also different characters too, the elephant 象 for black and the minister 相 for red (Despite being the identical pieces, interestingly this is also because in Mandarin both elephant and Minister are pronounced "xiàng" sounding similar. Considering that all pieces are usually in a set of identical sizes just adds to the confusion. One of these days I may get around to making a western-friendly set. I'm sure I could come up with better designs for Soldier, Advisor, Elephant, Horse (or knight) Cannon and Chariot. Loved the video, by the way. we've already tried Hens & Chicks, and enjoyed that. Trike's 'board' looks like it is made from poker chips?
The king-needs-to-be-surrounded-on-four-sides rule for Hnefatafl is entirely based on a pretty bad mistranslation. In the only set of rules for a tafl-game we have the king is captured from two sides, as you play it, except for when he is on the center square (where he is captured from four) or next to it (where he is captured from 3, the center square itself being the "fourth" side). The mistranslated in question basically just left out the "when he is on the center square" part. In these rules the king also only need to get to the edge, not the corner squares. (The corner square rule was based purely on the fact the the corners are decorated on some historical boards, and as a way to balance the game more by people working from the translation that had the error mentioned above.) Even with that, as long as you capture the king from two-sides, the consensus seems to be that if anything the game very, very slightly favors the attacking side.
One reason I don’t like shogi as much as international chess is that the drops disrupt the feeling of a military strategy game. I will say I think shogi and xiangqi are both prettier than chess with the minimalist presentation, although I never thought it made much sense to learn either one deeply as a westerner.
What an awesome video dude. I loved watching this. I already knew a few of the games but you've shown me some beauties! Tak looks incredible. We need to revive abstract games because like you said, they are the essence of the hobby. What are your thoughts on playing cards? Do you think we can play beautiful games using the classic deck of 52 or are they as boring as people perceive them to be? If you ever made a video about that I would definitely watch it! Thanks again for the game reccomendations!
Thank you so much for your comment. Have you seen my video “How to play Guinevere”? It’s an original solitaire card game using the standard-deck. It’s part of a series of games I’ve created called “Solitaire Legends”. I also have a video in the works called “Top 10 Standard-Deck Card Games”.
@@offearthgames Ah cool, I'll check that out! Sounds very interesting indeed, I love solitaire games. Ahh sick, I can't wait to see it! Keep up the good work!
A fantastic list. I too have been feeling the urge to evangelize abstracts lately. I find that most people who try them fall in love. I think you’re absolutely right about TZAAR being the best GIPF. Have you tried Lines of Action? Surprised to not see it on your list. Great video! If you’re ever in the Portland area, we have a weekly abstract night on Mondays.
Yes, I have played Lines of Action, but it was a long time ago. I think it's time to try again. Oh man, abstract night sounds awesome, too bad I don't live in the USA. Thanks for the comment.
Foi muito interessante assistir este vídeo. Porque, se do 7° para frente eu já conhecia todos (talvez não o 4°), dos três primeiros (10° ao 8°) eu nunca tinha ouvido falar. E gostei muito de conhecê-los. Também fiquei muito intessado em conhecer Ka'a. Que também me pareceu ser um jogo atraente. Fora que, nos comentários, foram mencionados jogos que eu já conhecia e outro tanto que ouvi falar pela primeira vez. Certamente vou pesquisar sobre eles. O RU-vid acertou em me mostrar esse vídeo. PS: Você já jogou Camelot? E Annuvin? O que acha de Othello?
I actually talked to Nick Bentley about this back in 2020 and he told me he was in talks with a publisher for a while. Unfortunately, those plans fell through. I have an ugly printed laminated board, but at least it’s portable. I have plans to make a wood board soon. Here’s the pnp file: nickbentleygames.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/carnivores-board.pdf
Primeiro vídeo que assisto do canal. Já deu para entender que você gosta de jogos abstratos (eu também!). E você parece conhecer muitos! Um verdadeiro especialista. Então fiquei curioso. Como você vê os jogos que o pessoal do hobby dos jogos modernos chama de abstratos? Considera-os como verdadeiramente abstratos? Quero dizer: fazem parte do mesmo time ou são outra coisa? Se interessa por eles? Estou falando de jogos como Valknut, Masai, The Climbers, Onitama, Glüx, Battle Sheeps, Sugar Gliders, Azul, Sagrada... Citei esses últimos apenas para você saber do que estou falando. Meu interesse mesmo é ouvir sua opinião sobre Valknut, Masai, e Tao Long.
In the middle of watching right now and loving it. Many games here i have not tried yet. On pause with a phone call but feel compelled to say you should try Zertz; 4 ways to win, two ways to capture, timed end game with diminishing board. Brilliant game. Kris Burm is a genius.
"Chess is boring, it's dry" hogwash! I think, there's a good reason, it's pretty much the most popular board game. I like shogi, but it doesn't have the same simplicity like chess.
The video is my opinion. It is not a statement that I think most will agree with. If you want to play Chess at a high level it’s all about memorizing openings and patterns. Shogi adds a tactical element by dropping in pieces that I find to be a more thrilling experience. If you think Chess is better, I wouldn’t try to argue, but hopefully my video explains why I prefer Shogi.
Discordo de que "basta" memorizar aberturas e padrões. Isso _também_ é necessário. Mas não é o suficiente. Quanto ao Shogi, jogá-lo em alto nível também exige muita memorização de aberturas e de padrões. Sei do que estou falando. Participo de um grupo de WhatsApp que é dedicado exclusivamente ao Shogi. A maioria das pessoas pensa que o Shogi exige menos memorização apenas porque estão pouco familiarizadas com ele. Recentemente assisti uma live no RU-vid de um evento onde, entre outras coisas, um mestre japonês enfrentou o campeão brasileiro. Eu estava no chat e a certa altura perguntei se a teoria de aberturas do Shogi é *mais extensa* que a do xadrez. Ou seja, vai mais longe. Eles achavam que sim. Mas, de novo, creio que só responderam isso porque estão pouco familiarizados com o xadrez. Comentaram que o estudo de aberturas no xadrez vai até o 10° lance (isso não é verdade pelo menos desde a década de 70), enquanto que no Shogi chega ao 20° lance (se contado da forma ocidental). Na verdade, em ambos os esportes se costuma estudar aberturas até o 20° lance atualmente. Então, nesse ponto, creio que a exigência é mais ou menos igual.
No entanto, acho que há uma consideração a mais a fazer. 🤔 As peças do Shogi são mais lentas. A maioria é de curto alcance. E o tabuleiro é maior. As peças demoram mais para entrarem em contato. Além disso, boa parte dos primeiros lances é gasta construindo o castelo. Enquanto no xadrez se pode rocar em um único lance. Disso tudo _talvez_ resulte que o estudo das aberturas no xadrez seja mais árduo e exigente do que no Shogi. Porque as hostilidades podem começar mais cedo. Enquanto que no Shogi a fase mais inicial da abertura é necessariamente de manobras e posicionamento. Mas realmente não sei dizer. Meu conhecimento de Shogi não é tão profundo assim.
That is high on my list of abstracts to get next. The top 3 games I most want to play right now are Qawale, Lyngk, and Canoe. Have you played it? Is it any good? Looks really beautiful.
Nice choices. If you like games with simple rules, I recommend Hex, with possibly the simplest rules of any interesting game, or Crossway, which uses a Go set. You might also like Quoridor.
