Trent Horn DEIFIES Virgin Mary while Defending Catholicism  

You avoided my point about omnipresence. I didn’t misunderstand.

A very common tactic of RC apologists that I have dealt with for 10 years. They rarely address your actual point and will jump to a change of subject or what seems to often be essentially preprogrammed talking points as a response.

@@Bibledingers This question has been answered many times brother. But it’s very possible you may not have come across it so allow me to answer. No, the intercession of the saints does not imply that those in heaven have omniscience. However, if you understand heaven as the beatific vision in which we stare into the essence of God it is perfectly reasonable to believe God could and even WOULD have reason to share the prayers of believers on earth to the saints in heaven who then pray alongside us. Naturally this would lead you to the question “why would God reveal our prayers to the saints just for them to then pray to God instead of answering our prayers without their intercession. The answer to that is that the Bible reveals the power and importance of prayer in numbers as well as the prayers of the righteous. God doesn’t have to do this but chooses to because it brings about a greater good; the good of unity and cooperation in the body of Christ. Also, someone could just as easily ask “why pray at all if God knows what you need or are going to pray for before you ask” and I’m sure you’d chime in and explain that our prayers are not changing God’s mind in any way as if He lacked knowledge of what we wanted and then gained it after we prayed. There’s power in prayer because it displays the good of humility on our part and paternity on God’s. Looking forward to your response. God bless!

Bibledingers Only God is omnipresent. Mother Mary, the Saints or the Angels are not omnipresent. But, they can and do listen to any prayers addressed to them from anywhere in any language. This is not because they are capable all by themselves, but rather God makes them “accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine” (Ephesians 3:20). It is God who empowers them. Bible says when we are in Christ, we are one body with Him (Romans 12:5), and we are branches of the one true vine (John 15:5) and not even death can separate us from Christ (Romans 8:38). The body of Christ, the Church, is made up of both the living (those on Earth) and the dead (those in Purgatory and Heaven), together forming a spiritual solidarity called the communion of saints. And since those in heaven are in perfect communion with God, they also have communion with us through God. Also those in heaven are not restricted by space and time like us on earth. Now that we have established that the whole Church is in the mystical body of Christ, let’s look into how the human body functions. Suppose there is a wound in one part of the body the whole body becomes aware of it and prepares to help in the healing process. For example platelets adhere to tissues around a wound, forming a blood clot, sealing damaged blood vessels and the bone marrow starts producing more white blood cells to combat possible infection of the wound. All of this happens because every single organ in the body is joined to the head and receives the required information from it. Similarly, those in heaven, who are in perfect union with God, can hear the prayers of the faithful through Jesus Christ, the head of the body (Colossians 1:18), and obtain for us what is needed as per God’s will. We do have Scriptural evidence to back up our claims. One such evidence would be Revelations 5:8 where we find the elders in heaven holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”. If they are indeed offering up our prayers, they also must be aware of them. As I conclude this answer I would like to remind all readers that whatever the saints and angels obtain for us, they obtain them from God as the scripture says “every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (James 1:17). By Edin Michael

@@treycastle9119 and I wonder what verse you could use to support this occurrence.

We are never instructed to pray to saints, the Bible declares all believers are saints and that the Holy Spirit intercedes. There's no evidence dead saints pray for us, or even interact with us. The only example is with witchcraft and even then God cursed Saul in the process.

This reveals a very interesting theology from Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that being deification, aka theosis, wherein “God became man so that man might become God” (CCC 460)

@@killianmiller6107 Exactly, something present in the scripture and on the church fathers but that goes unnoticed very often, which is sad because once you realize it you are amazed of how big and amazing is the gift that God gives us thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus

No scripture says they receive or can listen to our prayers. Furthermore all believers are saints, so being in Christ but dead doesn't give u special powers or change ur relationship with the living. They are still servants just as we are.

They’re more than servants, they’re adopted children of God and friends of Jesus as he says in John 15. We’re saints because we’re in Christ but most of us are still attached to sin. But they are free from it now and that’s why they’re in the presence of God. But what I would like to ask you is, what is eternal life? Jesus says, “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” But what is to know God? Can we know God?

@@EdgardoSilva-od3td they call themselves servants and say not to bow to them, yet Catholicism is perfectly fine bowing to statues, that's a red flag buddy. U say we are attached to sin, but the Bible teaches we are dead to it. U are purposefully degrading our relationship with God so u can justify putting the dead on a pedestal. None of that is biblical... We know God by receiving the Holy Spirit. Did u know that?

Thanks bro!

By GOD being the key! 🔑

@@Bibledingers absolutely

Okie dokie

Spouse of the Holy Spirit? How so? Where does that come from?

There will be seasons, if there aren't already. God can't make the petitions known if it displeases Him to do so. Imagine your wife's ex boyfriend is trying to seduce her to return to him but you intercept the message. Can you forward the ex's wishes? Obviously yes, but do you? Ur asking the wrong question, about God. God is omnipotent and sovereign so asking "can He?", as if that's the key argument against praying to the dead, is illogical.

Thanks for watching Jeremy!

He didn't call out anything except Bibledinger revealed his own error in logic. His whole argument rests on thinking that just because a saint in Heaven can hear and answer more than two prayers at once; somehow makes them equal to God or Omniscient/Omnipresent. That is an absolutely ridiculous and childish mode of thinking. That would be like me saying; science says the Universe is infinite, and religion holds that God is Infinite: thus scientists are wrong for deify-ing the Universe??? see how dumb that is. His argument is no different; or any better. Did not the Apostles heal the sick, raise the dead, and forgive sins!!! Who can do that but God alone!!! Wouldn't that also be deify-ing the Apostles???? Of course not. Anyone reading the scriptures would easily understand the Apostles could only do these things because God was working through them for this to happen. Likewise Catholics fully understand that Mary and the other Saints in Heaven are only capable of doing what they do because God continues to work through them. This is the kind of stuff we teach our children. You would thing a grown man would know better.

@@39knights thank you for speaking the truth in love.

I’d definitely be open to the conversation, although Catholicism isn’t quite might strongest subject. I can just see when there are logical fallacies being made! :)

@@Bibledingers Of course you wouldn't. He would wipe the floor with your nonsense; although very politely.

@@39knights what did I say that’s nonsensical?

@@Bibledingers For one your false statement that because Mary may have to listen to two prayers at once; that it would make her omniscient as God is!!!! You really didn't think that one through. First in heaven time itself does not exist; at least not as it does here on Earth. The souls there have entered the Eternity of Heaven which is vastly different than the passage of time for us here on Earth. Secondly there are many instances of great Catholic Saints (most recent being Padre Pio in the 1960's); who were given the ability by God to bilocate here on Earth. The Creator of the Universe could quite easily give to a person of His choosing whatever gift He wants. If this gift includes the ability to hear and answer 5 billion prayers in a single moment; then that is still absolutely nowhere even close to being Omniscient or Omnipresent as God is. It simply means they have a far greater gift than you will ever have. Samson was given the gift of the strength of 10 men; that didn't make him all-powerful like God. Really!!! If this is the best you can do; Trent would definitely chew you up like a marshmallow. Since Mary was Assumed into heaven (which is the universal belief of the biblical Christian community since the Apostles); she would now be in her resurrected body and none of us here on Earth have any idea what God has in store for us in our resurrected bodies. It took me only seconds to see through your failure in logic and I'm not even a bright or trained apologist like Trent. All I can say is that if issue the challenge and he accepts; prepare to have your self-imagined self-ordained beliefs obliterated. As the saying goes in my area; I've seen the man jump over much bigger to get at much better. Good luck.

@@Bibledingersif you can see when the fallacies are being made, you could point them out in conversation with him. You don’t have to be well versed in Catholicism. If you were, you’d probably be Catholic ;)

The martyrs are praying for their own vengeance in revelation so that verse was misused. Also, the 4th point he needs to justify is that we can communicate with specific dead saints about specific things.

@@Bibledingers why do Catholics blatantly read that verse out of context. Notice what they say isn't even prayer for living saints, they are literally asking God a knowledge question, not a request for blessing or action...

@@arcguardian 🤷‍♂

I did not admit that Mr. Horn does not deify Mary. In fact, this entire video is about how he unknowingly deifies Mary. You don’t even have to watch. That’s what the title is.

@@Bibledingers I stand corrected. You did not claim that Trent Horn does not deify Mary. I watched (and listened) to the video twice now. I guess your main point is insinuating Mary is omnipresent by the faithful that pray for her intercession. You tell me, is Heaven on Eastern Standard Time? Universal Standard Time? Those in the presence of God can not receive His grace, but are bound by earthly limits? God has His limits in this regard? The last point about the Lord's prayer ... it is prayed at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and I believe at the Divine Liturgy of our Eastern brethren as well. Keep investigating my beloved brother in Christ. Keep asking questions. I will include you in my prayers. Mary is often the major obstacle for believers returning home to the Church founded by Christ.

@@georgemontee8738 you’re conflating the time on a clock with the current moment of human history. And you are correct. I do not believe that those in Gods presence are automatically given Gods divine attribute of omnipresence. If you believe that, you’d have to show me scriptural support to convince me.

Living on earth as the Church Militant

@@danielshea9264 what verse says that?

@@Bibledingers in 2 Peter 3:8 "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." So, those who are in heaven experience time differently from those who are not in heaven. I had written that comment in a small response to you about when you said that for Mary to be able to answer prayers from multiple people at the same time she would have to be omnipresent. I just want to say that I do not think it necessarily means that. What I do think it could mean is that God can give Mary (and the saints and angels) the ability to intercede for multiple people at the same time or act so quickly that it would seem like the same time to us.

@@danielshea9264 “that with THE LORD” not “that with those in heaven” Don’t switch the words in the text my friend.

@@danielshea9264 also, your answer is conjecture on what you think might be happening. Don’t confuse that with what the scripture teaches.

Did He also say, “Behold Mary is omnipresent”?

@@Bibledingers I think you need to open your mind. And to respond to your conclusion, God can use us to perform his miracles and he can certainly do that with Mary. That’s the easiest way to put it

The verse that talks about this is in the book of 2nd Opinions

I am not assuming our cognitive abilities are going to remain unchanged. I do not believe, though, that we will gain God’s ability to be omnipresent. That is an affirmative statement on the behalf of Catholics which has no backing in scripture. That is what I’m challenging. While your argument may make logical sense to some, it’s lacking the only thing that matters. The Bible.

@@Bibledingers the bible, you mean the 73 book bible that was compiled by St Jerome around 400AD for the Catholic church? Amen.

@@michaelcaudron9883 cite a verse from that Bible that teaches Mary’s omnipresence

The Canon can not be determined by the Catholic church or "compiled " as if independent from God. Humans can only affirm what God gives, they can not determine it (leaving the debate about the legitimacy of the Apocrypha aside). In any case, notice you jumped to a different subject as a kind of "gotcha" attempt rather than addressing the actual subject /question.

@@Bibledingers She is in heaven with the saints, the angels and our lord. You keep confusing intercessory prayer (asking the saints to pray for us) with prayers to God. When we pray (intercessory prayer) to Mary, we ask her to ask our lord to hear our prayer. Wedding feast at Canna. She is not a Diety. She is a creature like you and I but she is full of grace - when the angel Gabriel appeared to her at the Annunciation.

Where in the Bible does it say that angels and Mary are outside of space and time?

@@Bibledingers in my view I don’t believe everything should be explicitly stated in The Bible. This belief is actually self contradicting since the Bible itself doesn’t say that you should find everything explicitly in the Bible. I am asking you where does the Bible say that only God is omnipresent since this is your belief and your argument. Angels are spiritual beings, spiritual beings are not bound by space and time as humans are. In Catholic theology Mary has a glorified body which was assumed to Heaven this glorified body is no longer bond by space and time in the same way Christ’s glorified body is not bond by space and time. So it makes sense in a Catholic perspective to believe that angels and Mary who are in Heaven can see and perceive things differently then humans who are on Earth

And she’s also omnipresent

@@Bibledingers Questions for you: 1. In the Old Testament, WHO was the Queen of the Davidic Kings (almost always)? 2.. What role did she have on the behalf of the people? 3. How did the King greet her? 4. Where did she sit? The Old Prefigures a greater fulfillment in the New. Keep in mind, Jesus is the KING OF KINGS!

@@TruthHasSpoken you can dodge the omnipresence thing with red herrings all day

@@Bibledingers Didn't dodge a thing. You didn't ask any question. I however have asked some simple questions of you. How about answering them? You THINK you know scripture. Let's see.

@@TruthHasSpoken you didn’t watch the video

Whatever you say

@@Bibledingers was that meant to sound rude and non ecumenical? that's how it comes off

Ok so you agree that she can only hear 1 prayer at a time? Because the friend you called doesn’t have an infinite amount of ears and phones to listen to each incoming call at the same time.

@@Bibledingers No, I’m just pointing out how moot your point is. Even going with your naive interpretation, nothing of what Trent says implies deification (which, according to you, would imply a deification of all saints, not just Mary). Again, Trent’s argumentation is unassailable and proves to Protestants that the practice of praying to saints is absolutely biblical and reasonable. You don’t want to follow this practice? Free to do so, but please don’t come lecture Catholics on how idolatrous they are, based on silly objections.

So God is constantly and consistently making dead saints aware of our requests for them to pray for us in real time? Or has He granted them omniscience and omnipresence in order to hear all of our prayers?

Jesus does not refute His mother in this Sacred Scripture. He explains that not only His mother is blessed, but also anyone who hears the word of God and keeps it. Jesus is inviting us all into the family of God with His statement. Do not forget that the angel Gabriel declared that all would call Mary blessed among women. No one loves Mary more than Jesus and Mary would never allow anyone to admire or love her more than her son. Her last recorded words were "Do as He says".

No the point here is that Mary’s blessedness isn’t because of bloodlines. Rather, it’s because of faith, which is why Elizabeth continued, “Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” And so Mary has a true maternity-not merely along bloodlines, but even more importantly, in faith. When you read Matthew 11 and Luke 12 isn’t to knock Mary down a peg. It’s to hammer home that, although Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to the House of David, the kingdom of God isn’t going to go the way that Israel and Judah’s royal house went. Membership in this new dynasty is based not upon blood or marriage, but upon faith, so that “to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God” (John 1:12). That’s the point Jesus is making in Matthew 12: we are all invited into Jesus’ family, through faith. Slowly, Jesus’ followers will realize that this “all” includes even Samaritans and Gentiles, and that this new house “shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples” (Isa. 56:7).

How does that refute anything that Catholics hold pertaining to the blessedness of Mary? Was it not Mary who God chose to carry Jesus, the Word made flesh? Was it not Mary who heard the word of God through Gabriel? Was it not Mary who accepted the physical manifestation of the Word within her womb? It would seem to me that Mary embodies everything that is said in Luke 11:28 ESV. Do not mistake my words for "deifying" Mary, they do not. Was Gabriel mistaken when he said to Mary "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" Luke 1: 28 ESV, some ancient transcripts include: blessed are you among women? If there is no hierarchy within the saints then why did Christ say this. Mark 10: 35-40 ESV: And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” Notice what Jesus doesn’t say. He doesn’t say that James and John’s request is absurd because the Kingdom of Heaven doesn’t have any hierarchy. He doesn’t say that nobody is any closer to God than anybody else. He doesn’t say that there is no left and right hand spot. He simply says that those spots have already been set aside, and He’s not telling us for whom. That is, God has an order, but it might be pretty different than the order we’d imagine. And can there be any doubt, from Scripture itself, that Mary is in a particularly honored position? Elizabeth says to her, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” (Luke 1:42 ESV), and “blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” (v. 45). Mary says of herself that “ For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed” (v. 48b). Indeed, she reminds us that God “he has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate” (v. 52), yet again showing that God has an order, just not our order, and she places herself as one of those who has been exalted, “for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.” (v. 48a).

😂😂 this could be either an insult or a compliment.

NO MARY NO CATHOLICISM!

@@lupelo8819 TRUE, NO MARY NO JESUS either

@@essafats5728 Actually it is Know Mary, Know Jesus ----No Mary, No Jesus.

@@39knights 🙏 💓 Peace Be With You

Are you attempting to say that this applies to Mary being omnipresent?

@@Bibledingers Mary is not omnipresent on her own but by the grace of God. God has elevated Mary above all not of her own righteousness buts Gods grace.

@@amadorlugo2698 what verse can I find to support that?

@@Bibledingers It’s not an explicit verse it’s implicit. Show me the verse that says all doctrine must come out of the Bible ?

@@amadorlugo2698 and where is her omnipresence implied?

You are arguing as if she is omnipresent

👌🏻👌🏻

@@Bibledingers sigh does Jesus honour His mother? According to His law?

Is she omnipresent?

@@Bibledingers Go ahead and be sarcastic but you won't learn a thing though.

@@davidfabien7220 I’m not being sarcastic.

Where does the Bible say Mary is God’s perfect work of redemption? Where does the Bible say Mary is our mother?

You have made a category error/leap...Paul requests others pray but they are living people...He doesn't apply that to those that have passed or "fallen asleep".

Well God could do a lot of things. That doesn’t mean He does. What’s your basis in scripture?

@@Bibledingers Where is it in scripture that it says Catholics are not deifying Mary? Cuz that's what I'm responding to. Where does it say in the Bible that you aren't a heretic? The question doesn't make sense.

@@CatholicConversations what verses in scripture do you use to support your original comment that God grants grace to Mary to hear prayers?

@@Bibledingers Where does it say in the Bible that God only grants graces that can be found in the Bible?

@@CatholicConversations you’re right. Based on that logic, I decide that according to my church tradition, that God has granted me with the power to fly.

Not well!

If the saints and angels are better at presenting your intentions and prayers to God, why not ask them to help you out? Why ask anybody on earth to pray for you if it does not help? Also, asking for the intercession of the saints does not mean you should stop praying to God.

@@danielshea9264 did you watch the video? Saints are not omnipresent or omniscient. Praying to saints doesn’t do anything, besides potentially breaking OT laws against divination/trying to speak to the dead.

@@Bibledingers just because a saint can intercede for many does not mean they are omnipresent, it just means that God allows them to be able to hear and answer those prayers. Also, Jesus conquered death and those who are in heaven are alive in Christ. Another thing, in the OT trying to talk to the dead was wrong because of how the people would try to talk to the dead. They tried to use earthly mediums and sometimes demonic mediums as a means to contact the dead, which is wrong. Now, God has bridged that gap via His death and resurrection. Just a note, we still should not use earthly mediums to try to contact the dead.

@@danielshea9264 but how exactly are they hearing all these prayers?

I don’t necessarily agree with it either. I can just see how someone would be able to use/abuse the Bible to support that position.

I would say the 30,000+ denominations of Protestantism in the world is a good example of Bible use/abuse

@@laurynojeda9223 red herring

@@Bibledingers what do you mean?

the saints aren't dead.

If Catholics 'worship' Mary more than God, can you show me where the Catholic Church has authorized the celebration of the Mass as a sacrifice to Mary?

Keep showing the world ur ignorance. p.s pull up ur pants, it's embarassing